WLW and Kell

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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:46 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
The White Luck Warrior is supposed to exist partially outside of time, so it HAS already happened to him, and is happening to him, and is going to happen to him. Maybe he's overlayed onto an alternate timeline where there is no No-God though and it's screwing with his interaction here. I dunno. Temporal stuff is hard.

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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:51 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?
The WLW knows that's going to happen because it already happened to him.
Are you saying the rendering point of the universe has actually moved on well past these events (Yatwer somehow messes with what has already been stiched into the loom)? Or somehow the universe doesn't need the prior moment to render the next moment? Otherwise if the universe does have to render A before it can render B and hasn't rendered it yet, it hasn't happened to him - it's a predictive.
Wouldn't 'fate' imply that it's a prerendered universe rather than a render-on-the-fly universe?

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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 11:58:57 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: lockesnow
Wouldn't 'fate' imply that it's a prerendered universe rather than a render-on-the-fly universe?
I'm speaking from the idea you can't get out of 'render on the fly' at some point. How did you get that prerendered universe? 'Well, to make it, we had A, then from that we got B' and bang, that's your point of rendering there. At the very least 'Well, the prerendered universe just...exists' surely doesn't sound that great a way of skipping any point of rendering?

Besides, fate seems to imply a narrative spine to unfolding events (a conspiring world, even). That's a different kettle of fish.[/quote]

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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:02 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
To be fair, I've never seen a kettle of fish so I wouldn't know

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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:07 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Just parading around the forums, seeing what moves me, as I continue living my strange hours.

I'd been looking to bump threads that fell off prematurely - also, I'd forgotten to look in Misc. Chatter the other day when I was previously bumping topics. I wasn't necessarily going to attempt anything too mentally strenuous but since I hadn't tackled this thread yet, here goes.

The Dunyain use the Logos to determine the intricate narrative weave of cause and effect. The Warrior's role is cast. He will always experience the perfect correspondence of cause from a Dunyain's perspective. Essentially, he's walking the line of perfect probability - though, obviously, accumulating probabilities in your favour yield happy events more and more quickly and fortuitously so the Warrior won't always experience the least probable outcome in every circumstance.

However, the White-Luck Warrior is also trapped by his circumstance. The end result determines all of his actions, an inevitable line of events, lacking any personal agency, towards culmination.

It enables Kellhus certain divergent tangents in planning. He could ultimately fabricate the circumstances of the White-Luck Warrior's visions in his favour, provided he had enough knowledge.

Also, the Dunyain training allows Kellhus to see cause and effect all the way to a corresponding Big Bang-like event in Earwa's universe. All the way to God?

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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:12 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Pertaining to that last line you wrote, that would be the ultimate goal. To see everything before and become Absolute. They have not achieved that, or not that we know of.

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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:17 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Hmm... there is a passage when Kellhus is reflecting - TTT, TWP? - about how he sees what comes before, down to the angles of the architecture, of cognitive schema, ideas, around him. It was the passage that first ever spawned that idea in me - like if he could just keep going back, would he realize that there are messages from God all around him, in the movements of human interaction, of history, or in nature's formation (twig with two branches o.O)?

But you're right at that point I didn't feel he was there yet.

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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:22 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
I have to admit that while I mostly loved book 5, I'm still confused about the WLW.  Is it Sorweel?  Is it the Narindar?  Is it Fanayal?  Are we supposed to be confused?

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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:28 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
We are certainly supposed to be confused.
And it could be all or none of the above depending on how you interpret the words or how much you weigh who spoke which ones.

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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:33 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I've argued that confusion is because of the occluded variables. Likely, the world opens up a bit further in the next books.

We have good thoughts about the White-Luck Warrior being his own mortal body or otherwise, anyone Yatwer needs. I'm willing to bet he's tied to one mortal coil though.

I think Zsoronga is right in his belief that the Gods sometimes use mortals as their personal agency and Narindar has become a loose cultural title for those individuals - not truly Narindar proper.

The White-Luck Warrior kills the true Narindar and takes his place before Esmenet goes to meet the true Narindar. That's why there's her momentary confusion as to why he doesn't have the traditional long-hair and that his mother named him Issiral, Fate.

I think that Fanayal is Gilgaol's Avatar. It reflects that I think all the Cult Gods will have Yatwer level agency in light of Maithanet's death. I also think that Psatma and Meppa know this yet haven't enlightened Fanayal to this reality.

Kelmomas - Ajolki
Achamian - Anagke

It could get interesting...

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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:39 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness

Kelmomas - Ajolki
Achamian - Anagke

It could get interesting...
DA always did have a thing for whores...

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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:43 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
After all the gods foes are vanquished (consult, no-god, kellhus), after man-kind lies bloody and broken upon the countless miles, after the world is brought back from the verge of complete annihilation, after all this, the Gods in their hundreds come down to Earwa with their avatars and fight for supreme rule over the promised land hoping to secure the remaining souls for their own.

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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:51 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
If all of those Gods were going to get an avatar, I would think that Husyelt would get one as well, but I have no guesses as to who that could be.

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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:55 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Absolutely, Trisk - in fact, I'm almost actually expecting something Erikson in nature to emerge in the Siege of Momemn and the War of the Cults.

Esmenet is a lifetime believer in the Hundred - in the iconic confrontation between her and Maithanet at the end of WLW, he's kneeling before "a tenth of the Hundred, the eldest and most powerful" (p805). If Inri Sejenus and then the social position of Shriah, and thus Maithanet, maintained some kind of metaphysical hold on the agency of the Hundred, then Yatwer has now broken that yoke.

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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:59 pm »
Quote from: coobek
I think WLW is formidable foe due to walking the perfect probability path. I, in fact, I do not see how Kell can defeat him. Therefore I dislike WLW character a lot, since as already stated somewhere I'd like Consult to get their ass kicked seriously and for now it's only Kell between them and nothing.

Having said that though, its obvious it must be Akka who kills Kell after he took away his wife, comeon.