Nonman mystery schools

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« on: May 14, 2013, 09:28:36 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
We now know that the Nonmen back in the day had "mystery schools" of some sort. My guess is that Bakker was thinking of secret rituals like the Eleusinian Mysteries in ancient Greece when he wrote that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

What could these mystery rites have been? Since the "official" Nonman religion was worshiping the empty spaces between the Gods, what could these esoteric mysteries have been about? Was it through them that the Nonmen looked into the Outside and realized that all of them were damned if they didn't avoid the Gods at all costs? How would the rituals have looked like?
(It's been rumored that the Eleusinian secrets were a golden snake and seeds sacred to Demeter, among other stuff. And since it's likely that Greek oracles were using psychotropic drugs, I imagine that Nonman rituals involved the eating of Qirri from their ancestors. Other than that, I have no clue.)

As always, feel free to speculate wildly.

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 09:28:42 pm »
Quote from: Meyna
Perhaps the "mystery schools" are a catch-all term for those groups pursuing theoretical sorcery? Similar to how Anagogic experimentalists developed the daimos, the mystery schools could be those who looked at gnostic sorcery beyond the fundamentals. Some could have looked into metagnostic sorcery, or maybe an abstract version of daimetic summons, or, as you say, some could have looked at what happens when one focuses on the empty space between gods.

Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Advanced_Study

In essence, what happens when you take curious, brilliant minds, put them together, give them what resources they need to work, and allow them to spend their time thinking outside the box?

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 09:28:47 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 on thoughts.

I'll repeat "sex, drugs, and transcendence" and Auriga's commentary of associating Apollonian over Dionysian.

Auriga, do we have any real indication as to the Nonmen's true religious beliefs? We're talking beliefs before the Fall of the Ark.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 09:28:52 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
I'll repeat "sex, drugs, and transcendence" and Auriga's commentary of associating Apollonian over Dionysian.

I remember how you said that, and also how you brought up that Nonmen have a much wider range of senses than humans do - the scene where the Nonman wants to touch Kellhus' skin was the example you used. It's a pretty interesting idea, and a shame that the author didn't elaborate on this aspect of the Nonmen more.

My comments about the Nonmen were mostly based on what we see of them in the books, and what sort of cultural leftovers they've left behind. To me, the Nonmen give off a very "Apollonian" vibe, with their introspective nature, rigid intellectualism, worship of oblivion (the infinity-seeking "Faustian soul", as Spengler put it), and geometry-based magic. OTOH, the pleasure-addicted and irrational Inchoroi are the quintessential "Dionysians".

Quote
Auriga, do we have any real indication as to the Nonmen's true religious beliefs? We're talking beliefs before the Fall of the Ark.

Again, going by what we have in the books, the worship of empty spaces was the Nonman religion before they encountered other species. I might be completely wrong about this, but it's all we know so far.

(Not saying that "Im right and ur wrong, durrrr", but rather inferring from the hard evidence we have in in Bakker's published stories.)

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 09:29:00 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Meyna
Perhaps the "mystery schools" are a catch-all term for those groups pursuing theoretical sorcery? Similar to how Anagogic experimentalists developed the daimos, the mystery schools could be those who looked at gnostic sorcery beyond the fundamentals. Some could have looked into metagnostic sorcery, or maybe an abstract version of daimetic summons, or, as you say, some could have looked at what happens when one focuses on the empty space between gods.

Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Advanced_Study

In essence, what happens when you take curious, brilliant minds, put them together, give them what resources they need to work, and allow them to spend their time thinking outside the box?
So you're saying if the Daimos summons the Gods, then what happens if you summon the space between the Gods?

What happens when you give nothingness, oblivion, agency?

What do you see?

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 09:29:05 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: lockesnow
So you're saying if the Daimos summons the Gods, then what happens if you summon the space between the Gods?

What happens when you give nothingness, oblivion, agency?

What do you see?

Cleric says that oblivion is what the Nonmen seek at some point, didn't he?  Isn't that what hiding their voices accomplishes or at least is alleged to? 

And is not the No-God some kind if "hiding of the voice" for the Consult?  Also an oblivion of sorts rather than a damnation? 


Interesting.

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 09:29:10 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Auriga
I remember how you said that, and also how you brought up that Nonmen have a much wider range of senses than humans do - the scene where the Nonman wants to touch Kellhus' skin was the example you used. It's a pretty interesting idea, and a shame that the author didn't elaborate on this aspect of the Nonmen more.

TUC's all about the Nonmen, likely. Plenty of opportunity.

Quote from: Auriga
Again, going by what we have in the books, the worship of empty spaces was the Nonman religion before they encountered other species. I might be completely wrong about this, but it's all we know so far.

(Not saying that "Im right and ur wrong, durrrr", but rather inferring from the hard evidence we have in in Bakker's published stories.)

Lol, I hope I don't come off like that. Of course, I should have elaborated... where's the hard evidence? I can think of Titirga's assertions in The False Sun and Nin'sarricas talking to Kellhus in WLW, neither of which can give us a good indication of Nonmen beliefs before the Fall.

We are very much slave to "what sort of cultural leftovers they've left behind," neh? These are not necessarily the religious ritual practices from a thriving Nonmen civilization.

I think that even if we can attribute oblivion seeking to the beliefs of a functional Nonmen civilization or original beliefs, it surely must be a poor point of extrapolation - surely, this couldn't be the total sum origin of all their beliefs?

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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2014, 11:43:16 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Meyna
Perhaps the "mystery schools" are a catch-all term for those groups pursuing theoretical sorcery? Similar to how Anagogic experimentalists developed the daimos, the mystery schools could be those who looked at gnostic sorcery beyond the fundamentals. Some could have looked into metagnostic sorcery, or maybe an abstract version of daimetic summons, or, as you say, some could have looked at what happens when one focuses on the empty space between gods.

Reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Advanced_Study

In essence, what happens when you take curious, brilliant minds, put them together, give them what resources they need to work, and allow them to spend their time thinking outside the box?
So you're saying if the Daimos summons the Gods, then what happens if you summon the space between the Gods?

What happens when you give nothingness, oblivion, agency?

What do you see?


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