The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Almanac: TAE Edition => Topic started by: H on March 07, 2016, 12:30:27 pm

Title: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 07, 2016, 12:30:27 pm
Prologue:

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"Scalper!" the lone traveller cried out. His voice possessed the gravel of an old officer's bawl.

A clue as to the identity of the traveler perhaps?

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The one the secret voice had told him to drive away.

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If he fails, the secret voice said, he will die.

Anasûrimbor Kelmomas smiled what seemed his first true smile of the day.

The voice is probably one of the biggest mysteries that I honestly don't have a grasp on.  I don't think it is Kellhus, or the Consult.  My best guess would be one of the gods, but there is the possibility that is really is Samarmas.  I doubt this though, I think that the twin's death simply left Kel open to the influence of the Outside.

Only managed to make it through the prologue, but we've began the true Slog!
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on March 07, 2016, 01:42:37 pm
Lol - it's rewarding to see a thread in the TAE Almanac.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on March 07, 2016, 08:22:49 pm
The voice is Moe.

Moe is everything that we cannot explain.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 07, 2016, 09:56:30 pm
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He suspects, the secret voice whispered. Suspects what? That you are make-believe.

Trying to make sense of this just has my mind going in circles. Who or what the voice is? What in the world does this even mean? I have no clue who the voice is truly, I have always leaned towards it being Sammy though...

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The revelation of adultery was significant in its own right—and it stung the old Wizard for reasons he dare not ponder. But the possibility that Seswatha might be Nau-Cayûti’s father? Not all facts are equal. Some hang like leaves from the branching of more substantial truths. Others stand like trunks, shouldering the beliefs of entire nations. And a few—a desperate few—are seeds.

As you know,  I'm of the opinion that Akka's dream are unfiltered truths straight from Seswatha.  I believe Nayu is Ses's son and this is merely Seswatha providing Akka with little truths to get him to follow the dreams. Akka is the direct hand of Seswatha in these events.  I also don't see where this makes him at odds with Kellhus.

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I’m no conqueror.” He paused as though to frown at the very notion. “As mad as it sounds, I really have come to save Mankind.”“Lies,” the Prince murmured through his confusion. “Liar."

So...... is he a liar? The million dollar question,  no? After his exchange with Moe, I truly believe that whatever Kellhus is trying to accomplish, he believes is truly best for Mankind. Now, as Locke has pointed out many times, Kellhus is not always correct in his assumptions. So, what he thinks is best, might not be.

ETA: one reason why I believe Kellhus here. He always talks about controlling the souls of others with Truths.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Odium on March 08, 2016, 02:49:25 am
I was not very loquacious throughout the PoN half of the slog. I'll try to put forward more thoughts as we advance through this one.

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Eyes rolling, they stared in lust and apprehension...

Men.

Perhaps it's the amount of Michael Haneke's cinema I've been consuming lately, but something about the very beginning of TJE gives me the initial impression that the Sranc are, in many ways, a grotesque distortion of the negative qualities in Men. Afterwards, the anonymous traveler reflects on how the scalpers are like animals. I feel the passage I've quoted and what immediately follows, including the tone throughout the scene with the traveler, do suggest that there are many parallels between the Skin Eaters and their prey. I'll even stick my fingers into the pot of wild speculation and say that afterwards, Bakker might be deliberately mentioning other typical conceits of violent men when he states that Ironsoul is as jealous of his voice as he is of his women and his blood.

(edit: to clean up my thoughts there a bit, what I mean here is that re: the feminism threads, another key concept in the series is Bakker's portrayal of this objectively, metaphysically hypermasculine world and all the terrible shit that involves, which would be the reason behind a juxtaposition of Men and Sranc to begin with)

Regarding the traveler's identity, I don't think he's anything more than the secondary character he appears to be. A red herring if he was intentionally meant to sow the question of who he is. Mostly I think he's just a convenient vehicle for the scene and, authorially, an easy way of introducing us to changes in the setting since the end of TTT.

Regarding Kelmomas' voice, I've reviewed the theories that have been suggested on the forum and the one I like the most is that the voice is Ajokli. I feel like I read another quote somewhere (besides, obviously, the prologue) that really put me behind the idea... besides, I think it fits into the framework of the other ways we've seen the subtle influence of the Hundred: Cnauir, Sorweel, and Psatma.

Regarding MSJ's points:

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As you know,  I'm of the opinion that Akka's dream are unfiltered truths straight from Seswatha.  I believe Nayu is Ses's son and this is merely Seswatha providing Akka with little truths to get him to follow the dreams. Akka is the direct hand of Seswatha in these events.  I also don't see where this makes him at odds with Kellhus.

Later on, we receive in-universe confirmation that all of Akka's dreams have secondary interpretations relating to their contexts and other secondary meanings. Here I believe we are glimpsing the suggestion that not only did Seswatha father Nau-Cayuti, but potentially that he created the Dunyain and consequently Kellhus.

This ties deeply into my interpretation of some of the biggest questions in the series, among them the No-God itself. I believe Nau-Cayuti's fate-worse-than-death is suggested in the [ex-TUC] excerpt, and that it was to become the No-God, the first self-moving soul that deconstructs the soul itself by dissolving its 'meaning' on a metaphysical level. I arrived at this conclusion after contemplating the series and what I understand of Bakker's philosophy as written on his blog, so your mileage may vary wildly.

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So...... is he a liar? The million dollar question,  no? After his exchange with Moe, I truly believe that whatever Kellhus is trying to accomplish, he believes is truly best for Mankind. Now, as Locke has pointed out many times, Kellhus is not always correct in his assumptions. So, what he thinks is best, might not be.

Along the same line as my previous thought, I feel there are multiple Nau-Cayuti / Kellhus parallels. I believe he was unknowingly turned into the No-God, and that Kellhus is on his way to Golgotterath because he truly believes he can harness the power of the No-God in a better way. IMO the narrative definitely indicates that Kellhus believes himself a genuine savior, basically re: everything relating to "The trial has broken you."

Also, per the influence of the gods, it was mentioned here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=817.0) on this very forum that Scott once dropped a comment about the Womb Plague & Yatwer being tied by irony. I believe Wilshire is spot on when he suggests that the irony here is the Womb Plague being an ironic byproduct of immortality and Yatwer ironically trying to murder Kellhus, the only being capable of stopping the rise of the No-God, because the gods are blind to the No-God's existence.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts so far.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 08, 2016, 12:19:57 pm
I was not very loquacious throughout the PoN half of the slog. I'll try to put forward more thoughts as we advance through this one.

Quote
Eyes rolling, they stared in lust and apprehension...

Men.

Perhaps it's the amount of Michael Haneke's cinema I've been consuming lately, but something about the very beginning of TJE gives me the initial impression that the Sranc are, in many ways, a grotesque distortion of the negative qualities in Men. Afterwards, the anonymous traveler reflects on how the scalpers are like animals. I feel the passage I've quoted and what immediately follows, including the tone throughout the scene with the traveler, do suggest that there are many parallels between the Skin Eaters and their prey. I'll even stick my fingers into the pot of wild speculation and say that afterwards, Bakker might be deliberately mentioning other typical conceits of violent men when he states that Ironsoul is as jealous of his voice as he is of his women and his blood.

(edit: to clean up my thoughts there a bit, what I mean here is that re: the feminism threads, another key concept in the series is Bakker's portrayal of this objectively, metaphysically hypermasculine world and all the terrible shit that involves, which would be the reason behind a juxtaposition of Men and Sranc to begin with)

I think it runs deeper than that.  I presented the idea back somewhere (probably based off someone else's idea that I can't recall) that both the Inchoroi and the Nonmen are actually allegories to the dangers of trans-humanism.  Indeed, this doesn't end there though, since the Sranc are even further debased Nonmen, I think what you say is essentially true.  The Sranc are basically the worst of Nonmen and Men put together.

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As you know,  I'm of the opinion that Akka's dream are unfiltered truths straight from Seswatha.  I believe Nayu is Ses's son and this is merely Seswatha providing Akka with little truths to get him to follow the dreams. Akka is the direct hand of Seswatha in these events.  I also don't see where this makes him at odds with Kellhus.

Later on, we receive in-universe confirmation that all of Akka's dreams have secondary interpretations relating to their contexts and other secondary meanings. Here I believe we are glimpsing the suggestion that not only did Seswatha father Nau-Cayuti, but potentially that he created the Dunyain and consequently Kellhus.

While I do think that Akka's "new" Dreams are truthful, I think that what Scott has done to essentially "throw us off" is to mix the truth with still more propaganda, so that we can never be sure, really, of how to square any of them off with the others.  We are left to try to piece together the truthful aspects with what is really just more window-dressing and misdirection.

Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 08, 2016, 03:32:49 pm
Quote
Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 08, 2016, 04:03:28 pm
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Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?

Yeah, we've talked about it before and the two places spared the Apocalypse were Sakarpus and Atrithau.

Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard and Atrithau is on Anarcane Ground.  My speculation was that the No-God could be blind to these places, because of this.  An alternative theory could be that without being able to use sorcery, it was not worth the effort for the Consult to take these places.

Both seem pretty plausible.  Kellhus demonstates that neither of these things effect him particularly (but yeah, he probably is salting from all the Chorae that are around but more probably Sorweel's).
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Odium on March 09, 2016, 12:23:59 am
I can't imagine conventional strategy applying much to the armies of the Weapon Races. Just judging from the Sranc/Bashrag it seems they kind of war with overwhelming numbers. I have a hard time imagining that the Consult would just spare two cities because of the resources necessary to conquer them. I'm sure there is some deeper significance to Atrithau and Sakarpus enduring the No-God, and what we know of them strongly suggests it has something to do with the disadvantages for sorcery at both locations. The Consult employed sorcery to create the No-God - maybe, paradoxically, it depends on it in some way.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 09, 2016, 12:45:46 pm
I can't imagine conventional strategy applying much to the armies of the Weapon Races. Just judging from the Sranc/Bashrag it seems they kind of war with overwhelming numbers. I have a hard time imagining that the Consult would just spare two cities because of the resources necessary to conquer them. I'm sure there is some deeper significance to Atrithau and Sakarpus enduring the No-God, and what we know of them strongly suggests it has something to do with the disadvantages for sorcery at both locations. The Consult employed sorcery to create the No-God - maybe, paradoxically, it depends on it in some way.

Well, I had a theory that the Carapace was made so that the No-God could not see itself, but even more so that it is appart from it's own nature.  In other words, it is not only blind to itself, but it is unaware of the very nature of it's existence.  It knows nothing of it's own boundaries, it knows nothing of what it is even doing.

I liken it to awaking up with your memory wiped in a sensory derivation tank.  You can't see, you can't feel anything, you can't even know if you are really moving, or where to even if you were.  We know what the No-God is doing in Earwa, but it doesn't.  We know that it can unify the will of Sranc, but I would venture that the No-God knows nothing of it.  It simply does this by existing.

In this way, the fact that Sakarpus and Atrithau are blind spots makes sense, just as it is it's own blind spot.

Made it through chapters 2 and 3 today:

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Not all facts are equal. Some hang like leaves from the branching of more substantial truths. Others stand like trunks, shouldering the beliefs of entire nations. And a few—a desperate few—are seeds.

The mention of seeds in relation to Celmomas.  Coincidence?  Doubtful.  Implication though?  That is less clear.  Perhaps drawing us forward to the Slog and for Ishual, the place of seeds.

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Theliopa, her eldest daughter by Kellhus, bowed in a stiff curtsy as they approached. Perhaps she was the strangest of her children, even moreso than Inrilatas, but curiously all the more safe for it. Theliopa was a woman with an unearthly hollow where human sentiment should be. Even as an infant she had never cried, never gurgled with laughter, never reached out to finger the image of her mother's face. Esmenet had once overheard her nursemaids whispering that she would happily starve rather than call out for food, and even now she was thin in the extreme, tall and angular like the God-her-father, but emaciated, to the point where her skin seemed tented over the woodwork of her bones. The clothes she wore were ridiculously elaborate—despite her godlike intellect, the subtleties of style and fashion utterly eluded her—a gold-brocaded gown fairly armoured in black pearls.

Am I the only one who thinks of her name as Theliopia?  I know it's wrong, but it has a better ring to it to me.  Anyway, she is probably my favorite of all Kellhus' kids, Inrilatas aside.  She is weird and creepy, but like my enjoyment of Aurang, she never pulls punches.  Just the facts mam, just the facts.

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Twenty years ago, Fanayal had ranked among the most cunning and committed foes of the First Holy War. Though the heathen Empire of Kian had been the first to topple at the Aspect-Emperor's feet, Fanayal had somehow managed to avoid his nation's fate.

It is pretty interesting that will all of Kellhus' power, he still lets Fanayal live.  Certainly this was a full choice.  Perhaps because he knew that while he was gone, an external enemy was needed to keep the empire together?

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His name was Hagitatas, famed among the Conriyan caste-nobility as a healer of troubled souls. Somehow, through tenderness, wisdom, and incalculable patience, he managed to pry her two little darlings apart, to give them the interval they required to draw their own breath, and so raise the frame of individual identities. Such was her relief that even the subsequent discovery of Samarmas's idiocy seemed cause for celebration.

I wonder if this separation is somehow the source of Kel's voice?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Alia on March 09, 2016, 01:21:54 pm
Regarding the traveler's identity, I don't think he's anything more than the secondary character he appears to be. A red herring if he was intentionally meant to sow the question of who he is. Mostly I think he's just a convenient vehicle for the scene and, authorially, an easy way of introducing us to changes in the setting since the end of TTT.

As I've already written somewhere on this forum, I think traveller is Sarl. First of all, his voice is the only one described in the book (several times) as "gravelly". Secondly, Ironsoul's only companion in prologue is a cowled figure (Cleric). Later Sarl tells Achamian that he's been with Kosoter for many years, but of course he can be lying.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 09, 2016, 01:38:34 pm
Regarding the traveler's identity, I don't think he's anything more than the secondary character he appears to be. A red herring if he was intentionally meant to sow the question of who he is. Mostly I think he's just a convenient vehicle for the scene and, authorially, an easy way of introducing us to changes in the setting since the end of TTT.

As I've already written somewhere on this forum, I think traveller is Sarl. First of all, his voice is the only one described in the book (several times) as "gravelly". Secondly, Ironsoul's only companion in prologue is a cowled figure (Cleric). Later Sarl tells Achamian that he's been with Kosoter for many years, but of course he can be lying.

Interesting.  I think I do recall you saying that.

It would make sense, since we know that the Consult knows of the Skin-Eaters and of Akka and Mimara.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on March 09, 2016, 10:57:21 pm
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When the grimaced, their blank and beautiful faces were clenched like crumpled silk, becoming expressions of ancient and inbred men
I can't even recall why, but after my first reading I was left with the impression that the Sranc might not have originally be a product of the Techne. This phrase just reminded me of it. Maybe more evidence will arise to persuade me I'm not completely off on this one. I doubt it though :)

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    "Scalper!" the lone traveller cried out. His voice possessed the gravel of an old officer's bawl.


A clue as to the identity of the traveler perhaps?
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As I've already written somewhere on this forum, I think traveller is Sarl. First of all, his voice is the only one described in the book (several times) as "gravelly". Secondly, Ironsoul's only companion in prologue is a cowled figure (Cleric). Later Sarl tells Achamian that he's been with Kosoter for many years, but of course he can be lying.
I thought I'd weigh in with a few more details to obfuscate everyone's reading a little more.
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"Veteran," the traveller said, bowing his head in due respect....
"How did you find us?" the man asked in his native tongue....
The traveller did not care. Men prized what they would.
"We find everyone."
Sarl seems to be older than the Captain by my interpretation, likely making him a Veteran as well. I thought it worth noting that the traveller speaks Ainoni. I feel like this wouldn't be mentioned if the shift in language were not meant to signify something; perhaps a fluency for language in this case? Lastly, the traveller muses "Men" as something different from himself.

Quote
   
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He suspects, the secret voice whispered. Suspects what? That you are make-believe.


Trying to make sense of this just has my mind going in circles. Who or what the voice is? What in the world does this even mean? I have no clue who the voice is truly, I have always leaned towards it being Sammy though...
I'm still holding my verdict on the voice. I can't recall quite where (I'll try to dredge it up later), but there is a comment along the lines that the Gods don't happen all at once. Between the two series there is a distinct transition from the oft mentioned Gilgaol (whether by lieu of our perspective in PoN) to Yatwer in this series. At the moment I'm consider that Kel is a broken vessel and one of the Gods is trying to push some influence on the Inside by giving the impression they are Sammy
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: citizensnips on March 10, 2016, 06:43:33 am
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Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?

Yeah, we've talked about it before and the two places spared the Apocalypse were Sakarpus and Atrithau.

Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard and Atrithau is on Anarcane Ground.  My speculation was that the No-God could be blind to these places, because of this.  An alternative theory could be that without being able to use sorcery, it was not worth the effort for the Consult to take these places.

Both seem pretty plausible.  Kellhus demonstates that neither of these things effect him particularly (but yeah, he probably is salting from all the Chorae that are around but more probably Sorweel's).

I can't remember where this came from, but wasn't one of the books of the Tractate devoted to something along the lines of "the strange story of how Sakarpus survived the Apocalypse"?


Am I the only one who thinks of her name as Theliopia?  I know it's wrong, but it has a better ring to it to me.  Anyway, she is probably my favorite of all Kellhus' kids, Inrilatas aside.  She is weird and creepy, but like my enjoyment of Aurang, she never pulls punches.  Just the facts mam, just the facts.


Dude, I just now realized there's no i at the end of her name reading that. Also, I wonder where her name comes from? All the rest of the kids seem to have familial or historical based names.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 10, 2016, 12:28:12 pm
Quote
When the grimaced, their blank and beautiful faces were clenched like crumpled silk, becoming expressions of ancient and inbred men
I can't even recall why, but after my first reading I was left with the impression that the Sranc might not have originally be a product of the Techne. This phrase just reminded me of it. Maybe more evidence will arise to persuade me I'm not completely off on this one. I doubt it though :)

I'm not sure I'll really buy that.  We know that the Sranc spontaneously came out of the Ark, at the Black Furnace Plain, after the Second Watch.  Chances are good that most of the Second Watch was spent creating the design that would become Sranc.  Although, if you are implying that they were more bread then created, I could sort of buy in to that, but I still would think that the Tekne was involved somehow.

I thought I'd weigh in with a few more details to obfuscate everyone's reading a little more.
Quote
"Veteran," the traveller said, bowing his head in due respect....
"How did you find us?" the man asked in his native tongue....
The traveller did not care. Men prized what they would.
"We find everyone."
Sarl seems to be older than the Captain by my interpretation, likely making him a Veteran as well. I thought it worth noting that the traveller speaks Ainoni. I feel like this wouldn't be mentioned if the shift in language were not meant to signify something; perhaps a fluency for language in this case? Lastly, the traveller muses "Men" as something different from himself.

I like that, good catch.  I am feeling like it is more and more probable that it was Sarl.

I'm still holding my verdict on the voice. I can't recall quite where (I'll try to dredge it up later), but there is a comment along the lines that the Gods don't happen all at once. Between the two series there is a distinct transition from the oft mentioned Gilgaol (whether by lieu of our perspective in PoN) to Yatwer in this series. At the moment I'm consider that Kel is a broken vessel and one of the Gods is trying to push some influence on the Inside by giving the impression they are Sammy

I think it's plausible that the voice is a god that gained influence when the twins were split, somehow.

I can't remember where this came from, but wasn't one of the books of the Tractate devoted to something along the lines of "the strange story of how Sakarpus survived the Apocalypse"?

It's the Saga, but yes:

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“The Annal Sakarpa,” or “The Refugee’s Song” as it is sometimes called, the strange account of the city of Sakarpus during the Apocalypse.

I would love if Bakker ever wrote something like the Sagas or the Isûphiryas as Atrocity Tales, so we could learn more about them.

Dude, I just now realized there's no i at the end of her name reading that. Also, I wonder where her name comes from? All the rest of the kids seem to have familial or historical based names.

It's a good question, one I never really found a good answer too.  Once upon a time, I came up with the following while trying to break the name apart:

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In the Sepher Yetzirah, Samael or Satan is also called Theli, (Hebrew) meaning The Dragon. This is the initiatory force of darkness, wherein the Fallen Angel, Ahriman, or Satan enters the coils of Leviathan to empower and exist as an immortal spirit, although as a Druj or Lie, changes continually which can be compared to the symbolism of the motion of the serpent.

The mystery of Theli as the Dragon is found in taking away merely one Hebraic letter, Th being Tau,

which adds to 400 which leaves LI which equals 40 being Mem, referring to Water. To enter the Coils of Leviathan, the possibility of spiritual immortality and the mastery of the flesh while living, calls to the distinction between mere ‘ritualism’ and actual “Adepthood” by entering the Waters of the Subconscious. Leviathan is an essential aspect of initiation, until the Spirit enters the coils of Leviathan, then the Dragon awakens completely. The Grimoire of Awakening is found in these very pages, the Qlippoth itself.

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Theli:

(Or ThLi, Thele, Teli, TLI, Tali) is the name of the great fish-like dragon according to the Sefer Yetzirah of Hebrew mythology. It is said to hold its tail in its mouth, and it is constantly seeking a way to gain entry into heaven. His whole body envelopes the universe. This Serpent sounds similar to the Ouroboros. (See also under "O").

Theliopa as the Savior?  ;)
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 11, 2016, 10:59:51 pm
Camlost

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I'm still holding my verdict on the voice. I can't recall quite where (I'll try to dredge it up later), but there is a comment along the lines that the Gods don't happen all at once.

Happened upon it last night.

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The Gods …” Nannaferi began, struggling to render what was impossible in words. “They are not as we are. They do not happen … all at once. "
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on March 12, 2016, 10:38:40 am
Quote
Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?

For some reason i thought he was salting due to near strikes but i cannot remember why i think that. TJE is the book i've read least and i dont have a copy of it handy.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Somnambulist on March 12, 2016, 04:07:19 pm
Quote
Made it through Chapter 1:

Quote
upon the high wall the husbands slept,
while 'round the hearth their women wept,
and fugitives murmured tales of woe,
of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau...

—"The Refugee's Song," The Sagas

This is the quote from the beginning.  What way to beging the chapter that sees Sakarpus conquered.  The parallel is obvious, showing us that Kellhus has done what the No-God (and Consult) could not.  The implication seems clear, Kellhus is more.  What remains to be seen is, what does the more entail?

Tell me, why couldn't the Consult conquer Sarkapus? The chorae hoard? Is this why Kellhus hand is salting when he meets Sorweel?

For some reason i thought he was salting due to near strikes but i cannot remember why i think that. TJE is the book i've read least and i dont have a copy of it handy.

This was also my take on it.  I believe there was mention of the defenders firing chorae-tipped arrows at him, and he moved or jerked as if swatting them away, or something like that.  I just assumed one got too close, like he batted it away too close to the chorae itself.  Also, I don't believe it was the hoard itself making him salt from that distance, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to enter Sakarpus at all, were that the case.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on March 12, 2016, 04:08:00 pm
A small thing that I found interesting is when Mimara's judging eye opens she sees snakes shine with holiness. In our world snakes are maybe the most "damned" animal.

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Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on March 17, 2016, 04:14:37 pm
Nameless visitor notices cleric has a deep mark.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 17, 2016, 04:26:51 pm
Oooh,  great catch Wilshire!

ETA: I'm assuming you're talking about the traveller. When does he mention Cleric's mark? I went back and read it just now and never seen that.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 17, 2016, 04:49:18 pm
Oooh,  great catch Wilshire!

ETA: I'm assuming you're talking about the traveller. When does he mention Cleric's mark? I went back and read it just now and never seen that.

Quote
A second man, his face concealed by a black cowl, sat three paces behind him, leaning forward as though straining to hear something in the water's ambient rush. The traveller peered at him for a moment, as though trying to judge some peculiarity, then returned his gaze to the first man.

Since he can't see his face, it's implied that what he would be seeing is The Mark.

The question then is, who of the Few would Kellhus employ to find them?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on March 17, 2016, 06:15:59 pm
or he is seeing a non-man instead of a human that's why he is peculiar.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on March 17, 2016, 08:22:49 pm
presumably the obscured face makes the fact that he is a nonman not readily apparent, but the depth of his mark worth a double take. Even it it was a normal mark he probably wouldn't have bothered with the double take.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on March 17, 2016, 08:30:42 pm
@Somna
I agree. The chorae don't have a compounding aura/radius of effect increase with more of them. If it was so great to cause him to salt, then it should have not only done that but also make working any magic in the entire area impossible.

That, and then great siege walls would have been constructed to make wider and wider anti-magic barriers. Basically, to make movable anarcane ground. That never happened, so chorae must not work tha tway, in my mind.


There must have been some other effect, potentially somthing that only the NG could see (or not see), that prevented it from walking through Sakarpus. If it was just the consult, you might say that they just avoided the area, simply too great a risk to try to take a city so capable of killing them. However, since the NG avoided the place, it mus thave been something more than simple consult risk avoidance.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on March 17, 2016, 08:46:00 pm
presumably the obscured face makes the fact that he is a nonman not readily apparent, but the depth of his mark worth a double take. Even it it was a normal mark he probably wouldn't have bothered with the double take.

I don't see a double take in the text.

"A second man, his face concealed by a black cowl, sat three paces behind him, leaning forward as though straining to hear something in the water's ambient rush. The traveller peered at him for a moment, as though trying to judge some peculiarity, then returned his gaze to the first man."

He "peers at him for a moment" then returns "his gaze to the first man" , does he look back again in the rest of the text?

I'm not sure if he does see a mark or not. I don't see him doing a "double take" For me it's looking turning away, brain catches up with eyes and you look again.

He stares at him as he is peculiar thinks of him as a "man" we know it's actually a non-man, couldn't this also account for the action?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on March 17, 2016, 09:44:01 pm
@Wilshire, that's why I asked the question, it doesnt make sense. The Consult has no control over the No-God if I remember correctly. And,  for some reason I don't recall Kellhus being near any Chorae. Just might've missed something, dunno.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on March 17, 2016, 10:14:40 pm
I haven't gotten here yet, but I don't think we have any idea why sakarpus was spared. Atrithau, specifically, is said to be spared due to anarcane ground, but even then we don't know why that helped.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on March 18, 2016, 05:43:50 pm
Started reading this week, really enjoying it. I thought it was funny, given the real world situation, when Kelmomas asks:

Quote
“When will Father return?”
...
“Not for some time, Kel,” she said. “Not until the Great Ordeal is completed.”

I might be reading too much into this but I found it interesting how the first chapter begins:

Quote
The tracks between whim and brutality are many and inscrutable in Men, and though they often seem to cut across the impassable terrain of reason, in truth, it is reason that paves their way. Ever do Men argue from want to need and from need to fortuitous warrant. Ever do they think their cause the just cause. Like cats chasing sunlight thrown from a mirror, they never tire of their own delusions.

It goes on to describe how the great Ordeal was prepared for the rest of the first section. On the one hand, it's a cynical assertion that Earwans don't actually care about the No-God or the Apocalypse, it's just the rationalization they use to take what they want from others, purge the non-believers, and eventually sack cities like Sakarpus. At first I actually thought it was about Kellhus and wondered what whim or want, as opposed to the need and reason of averting apocalypse, would cause him to call the ordeal. Either way, it confirms what the Judge suggests before the prologue and what many of the characters and ourselves suspect, that the Ordeal not exactly what it claims to be.

As far as Esmenet, it seems she's already been driven to the brink at the beginning of TJE. Her control over her ministers is tenuous at best, the world knows her as a tyrant, and she admits to having episodes where the gravity of it all floods in and overwhelms her while conducting affairs of state. At the end of WLW, she and Maithanet suspect Kellhus does not care if the new empire falls but this reread pushes me more to the idea that he willfully intended for it to happen, Which makes this all the more horrifying:

Quote
Short of the No-God’s resurrection, nothing can save Golgotterath. The Consult’s only hope is to fan the embers, to throw the New Empire into turmoil, if not topple it altogether. The Ainoni have a saying, ‘When the hands are strong, attack the feet.’”

Much like the first holy war, Maithanet suggests the Consult might be exacerbating political strife for their own gain. That they could be goading or assisting Fanayal and Psatma Nannaferi. The mysterious significance of the Satyothi skin spy in this chapter could be to confirm they have agents in the Zeumi court, the last true rival to the new empire, and who we know is considering throwing their support behind Fanayal.

We know the Interdiction was likely imposed to keep the soldiers in the dark about the conflict that would surely erupt about the power vacuum. But what would it do to morale if it went one step further and the Consult actually truly destroyed these cities? And what are the implications of Kellhus opening the door for the Consult to do so? Perhaps he had no other choice if Golgotterath is to be destroyed but at again, it really feels like he went out if his way to set Esmenet up to fail.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on March 18, 2016, 06:11:26 pm
The difference here though is that the collapse of the Empire, at this point, is not rellevent. They would have needed its collapse before the holywar disembarked.

The vacuum left behind, the collapse of the empire, does not stop the men already marching, bent on the destruction of the Consult.

Even then, as many suspect, Kellhus purposefully left behind  a broken empire such that Fanayal and/or Zeum could easily take control in a way that no one he left behind could do. Could maybe Maithanet hold the Empire together better than Esmi? Probably, but unlikely that he would be more effective than the entire military dominance of another whole nation.

Also, recall that the  TTT requires that all people of all faiths unite, which should include the remaining crumbling Fanim and the yet untouch Zeum. The Ordeal's failure unites the rest of the 3seas in a way impossible to do without such an event. Seswatha coming back to warn the Three Seas seems extremely likely to happen again - whoever becomes that harbinger is not terribly relevant. What is relevent is he/she/their effectiveness at convincing those left behind that more action is needed.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on March 21, 2016, 04:29:45 pm
The difference here though is that the collapse of the Empire, at this point, is not rellevent. They would have needed its collapse before the holywar disembarked.

The vacuum left behind, the collapse of the empire, does not stop the men already marching, bent on the destruction of the Consult.

But that's the point of the Interdiction, isn't it? The morale of the Great Ordeal would falter if they knew the homes and loved ones they were fighting to protect were already gone. I just find it immensely intruiging if it happened by the designs of the Consult and not just the heathen and Zeumi, or the possibility that more than just Coyauri and Sword Dancers might start showing up in the Three Seas.

And I'm not sure Fanayal or Zeum could do a better job maintaining stability than whoever Kellhus left. The initial Nannaferi scene suggests there is still considerable enmity between the Orthodox and the heathen, and the number of cult followers among the lower castes is huge. But even if they could maintain some kind of order, how does that dynamic change if the Consult has likely infiltrated the Zeumi court?
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 21, 2016, 04:47:09 pm
The difference here though is that the collapse of the Empire, at this point, is not rellevent. They would have needed its collapse before the holywar disembarked.

The vacuum left behind, the collapse of the empire, does not stop the men already marching, bent on the destruction of the Consult.

But that's the point of the Interdiction, isn't it? The morale of the Great Ordeal would falter if they knew the homes and loved ones they were fighting to protect were already gone. I just find it immensely intruiging if it happened by the designs of the Consult and not just the heathen and Zeumi, or the possibility that more than just Coyauri and Sword Dancers might start showing up in the Three Seas.

And I'm not sure Fanayal or Zeum could do a better job maintaining stability than whoever Kellhus left. The initial Nannaferi scene suggests there is still considerable enmity between the Orthodox and the heathen, and the number of cult followers among the lower castes is huge. But even if they could maintain some kind of order, how does that dynamic change if the Consult has likely infiltrated the Zeumi court?

Well, we could presume, by what we learn from Theliopa, that the dark-skinned skin-spy is new.  Presumably they were made to infiltrate Zeum though, right?  It seems highly plausible that the Consult now has agents there.  Other-wise, why even bother to tell us about it's skin color?

That being said, it has to be part of Kellhus plan for the Empire to fall, right?  There's no way he hasn't predicted something so major.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2016, 05:22:06 pm
He definitely has plans for Zeum, and it seem implausible that Fanayal is running around unchecked and forgotten by Kellhus. Just like Akka in his tower, everything has its purpose - probably.

The skin spy may have just been the first the Consult used in the Three Seas. It seems unlikely that the Consult have spies on the Nonmen and all the Three Seas, but neglected to infiltrate Zeum.

As you said, H, there was a point of showing them to us, and clearly Kellhus has plans for Zeum - though that path is unclear to me.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: H on March 21, 2016, 05:35:44 pm
As you said, H, there was a point of showing them to us, and clearly Kellhus has plans for Zeum - though that path is unclear to me.

I think now to what Zsoronga tells Sorweel about Kellhus' manipulation his father:

Quote
"So what did your father do?"

Zsoronga snorted in derision. "What he always does. Talk, talk, and bargain. My father believes in words, Horse-King. He lacks the courage your father showed."

I think Kellhus played this excellently.  He knew exactly how to manipulate him.  Since that is the case, I have doubt that know his nature so well, he wouldn't anticipate the further hidden reaction.  No, I think his move with the envoys was an absolute goad, one he knew couldn't be ignored.
Title: Re: The Slog TJE - Chapters 1-3 [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on April 04, 2016, 05:54:30 pm
`Started re-read, when traveller comes down 3 people are staring at him, when he gets closer only 2 are described. Cleric and Kosoter.

Esme gives birth just after Shimeh exactly where Inri ascended in Shimeh, according to her, we know from the appendix that it might have actually been where Moe was. So Dad dying and first son born in the two places where Inri ascended.

Quick thoughts i'll order them more later.