The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:44:40 pm

Title: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
Quote from: WillemB
This is my second time through the series and I'm midway through WHITE LUCK WARRIOR.  It's definitely been interesting to read the books a second time in light of Scott's posts on TPB.  You know, seeing how so many of his ideas find their way into Earwa is pretty great.   In part, I'm going back through the books because I love the language so much; Scott has such a way with communicating setting and tone with words.  All the crispness and precision of his language, the density of the metaphors, the vividness - oh man, it makes my head ring.

Putting that aside, I thought I'd make some noise about where I think we're headed with this last book in the Aspect Emperor series.  There are so many threads here that I could never review all the discussions in any comprehensive way, so I apologize to my fellow Earwa lovers if I retread things discussed elsewhere.

So, some wild speculation about the end of the Unholy Consort.  Here we go:

THE KING MUST DIE - I'm pretty sure we're going to see Kellhus die.  I’m hopeful  that the scene in which this happens will include a payoff moment where we see Akka kneel before him (as this was set up in the closing scene of TTT) "The next time you come before me, you will kneel."  That bit.  Mmm...  love that scene.  Perhaps not just kneel before him, but kneel over him, as he lays mortally wounded.

DUNYAIN & CONSULT BFF! - What are Kellhus' motives?  I think he went crazy while on the circumfix (I think this is even said in a prologue somewhere), and that he really believes he's the prophet/savior of humanity.  We get that much made clear in his chat with Moenghus at the end of TTT – we see in an internal monologue that Kellhus anticipates that Moenghus would lead the people of Earwa into manufactured catastrophes.  This I take as the main reason Kellhus shivs his old da.  The manufactured catastrophes bit: in that conversation a parallel is drawn between the Consort's desire to shut out the gods, and the Dunyain desire to be self-moving souls.  Kellhus recognizes that the two have a unity of purpose.  What a match made in heaven (or hell)!  This is one reason I think the Dunyain could come flooding out of Golgotterath to meet the Ordeal.  What an ending that would make!  Surely Kellhus has considered this possibility while in the probability trance.  We have been led to believe that Kellhus does not want this to happen, or the Consult to "win".

SORWEEL & …MIMARA!?  -  Hmm… how about this one: Sorweel and Mimara join up forces in Unholy Consort, and she helps him decide what he must do using the Judging Eye.  Should he, after all, get his vengeance for Kellhus et al for conquering his homeland and killing his beloved father?  Is Kellhus good or evil?   What about the rest of the lot?  Tell me Mimara, "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" Adds new resonance to that standby question, no?  It explains why the whirlwind keeps asking it: it wants to know if it is still damned.  It will be pretty darned instructive to learn what Mimara sees when looking at the Aspect Emperor while the Judging Eye is open.  Her guidance could nudge Sorweel in the direction of making the right choice… well, whatever that means in Earwa.  Serve Yatwer, or serve Kellhus?  Or follow his own path?

144,000  - So, if we assume that Kellhus is going to die (a possibility for which Kellhus begins to groom Proyas in their fireside chats in White Luck Warrior) we can also assume that things will not bode well for the armies of men.  I’m assuming that all but 144,000 will be killed as this magic number popped up somewhere in the opus.  Some Christians believe that 144,000 people will be saved (raised up to heaven), and this number appears in the Book of Revelations as 12 tribes with 12,000 each being "sealed" for heaven, if I get it right.  So, I'm sure Scott is aware of this, and is perhaps planning that only that many will be "saved"; saved from dying or from going to the outside or hell in death - who knows?  I think that number will be the starting point for the third trilogy after the impending catastrophe that I assume will come at the end of the Unholy Consult.

3RD TRILOGY - Another reason I think we can assume the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan, and that Kellhus will not ride home on a rainbow made of pixie dust,  is that we’ve heard some hubbub about a third trilogy.  Well, if everything was wrapped up and pat, then why bother with a third trilogy?  I would put forward that perhaps the third trilogy would deal with Sorweel, Mimara, and her baby (!) trying to finally, really and truly, destroy the Consult. 

KELLHUS AS EVIL OVERLORD - Kellhus leads the Great Ordeal and conquers!  Then rides home on a unicorn!  Trumpets made out of honey blare his triumphant return.  Hawaiian punch in every water fountain!  Unlikely.   How about this: Kellhus is NOT in fact insane (from a Dunyain perspective) and rides the Great Ordeal all the way to the doors of Golgotterath then picks that moment to use them as a bargaining chip to obtain his own, individual salvation (by becoming complicit in the effort to shut the gods out).  In so doing, he has, at last, become a self moving soul, albeit at the cost of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!  It’s an interesting thought, but not one for which we’ve gotten any foreshadowing, I feel.  I’m pretty sure he’s simply crazy, and believes himself to be the savior.  Now, are the other Dunyain crazy?

NATURE OF THE NO-GOD REVEALED – This seems pretty evident to me, especially after reading the chapter excerpt from Unholy Consort.  If you haven’t read that bit, and don’t want to until the book is released, skip the rest of this entry.  Here’s the part I found relevant:
Quote
He described a hate-rotted soul, forever falling into hell, forever deflected by ancient and arcane magicks, caught in the sackcloth of souls too near death to resist his clutching tumble, too devoid of animating passion.

A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...

“But isn’t trapping souls an ancient art?” she asked.

“It is...” Achamian replied.

We learn about the soul of Sheönanra ping-ponging circularly so that it can’t plummet into hell, confronting Nau Cayuti (I believe).  We learn about the NO-GOD sucking up souls hoover-style (circular again, naturally).  If the objective of the consult is to shut out the gods, and if Scott has described the way in which Sheönanra has isolated himself from damnation, it stands to reason that this IS the essential mechanism by which the No-god will shut out the outside.  So, I would suggest that Sheönanra is the No-god, wrapped up in a tidy carapace with a whirlwind bow on top. He isn't making his tour of the countryside so much to do destroy the human race, as to collect their souls and thus deny the gods access and thereby close the world to the outside.

I’d love to hear your thoughts about this stuff.  I think the only way I'd be disappointed by the ending to this series is if I was somehow not surprised.  Honestly, I’m not too worried about that happening as Scott seems to always have something delicious and unexpected waiting for us.

-Will
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:45:22 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Shaeonanra is the No-God is interesting.

Also interesting is the idea that the No-God was looking for the Judging Eye, and that's why it took the field.  The no-god wanted to know if it was still damned.

sucking up souls hoover style, sort of like ghostbusters, only they're sucking up the 'souls' and protecting them from the outside within the carapace, a new repository for souls.  The No God is saving souls?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:45:30 pm
Quote from: Madness
+1 on No-God saving souls from Damnation. Inversion!

First off – yeah baby! Wicked post. I very much concur with reasons for liking Bakker’s writing.

No need to apologize. If anything that is a compliment to our growing noosphere here at Second Apocalypse. You should check out my version of a wrap-up post though – The Unholy Consult[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-unholy-consult-t1188643.html).

The King Must Die – Agreed with one proviso – Kellhus’ Death will be planned either to defect to the Consult, possibly faked, possibly through resurrection by the Tekne, or to ascend to his own realm in the Outside where he continues his quest – whatever that may be.

Dunyain & Consult BFF! – I still like Nerdaneling about the Dunyain already dominating Ishterebinth – why not the Consult too? Maybe that’s what we’ll discover in the North…. Nonmen and Consult have been Dunyainified.

Sorweel & …Mimara!? – I like the idea of the two non-players (though, obviously, they are) joining forces. After all, Sorweel and Mimara are severely outclassed by Serwa and Achamian, to a lesser extent by Moenghus as well.

3rd Trilogy – My personal bet is we won’t make it past the conclusions of the Sieges of Dagliash and Momemn, respectively. The big question is how much time passes between TAE and TSTSNBN?

Kellhus as Evil Overlord – I like this… don’t see it happening but I always expect curveballs from Bakker.

Nature of the No-God revealed – I don’t think we’ll have this reconciled by the end of The Aspect-Emperor. I figure AE will end with an “and as one they all looked to the Northern horizon… felt it… him… the No-God walked!

Insight of the day – Atheist is No-God in Latin.

Cheers, Willem.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:45:38 pm
Quote from: Garet Jax
Quote from: WillemB

144,000  - So, if we assume that Kellhus is going to die (a possibility for which Kellhus begins to groom Proyas in their fireside chats in White Luck Warrior) we can also assume that things will not bode well for the armies of men.  I’m assuming that all but 144,000 will be killed as this magic number popped up somewhere in the opus.  Some Christians believe that 144,000 people will be saved (raised up to heaven), and this number appears in the Book of Revelations as 12 tribes with 12,000 each being "sealed" for heaven, if I get it right.  So, I'm sure Scott is aware of this, and is perhaps planning that only that many will be "saved"; saved from dying or from going to the outside or hell in death - who knows?  I think that number will be the starting point for the third trilogy after the impending catastrophe that I assume will come at the end of the Unholy Consult.

-Will

Nice post Will, I love to see all the activity.  I am deep into my own reread right now as well.  Your post made me think of something though...

The "souls" that we think we know that are not damned in Earwa can be counted on two hands. I like to believe instead of dropping a count to 144,000, the key to salvation might be adding up a certain number of "souls" from >10 to reach 144,000? 

Probably a ton of holes, but there you go.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:45:47 pm
Quote from: WillemB
Quote from: Madness
+1 on No-God saving souls from Damnation. Inversion!

First off – yeah baby! Wicked post. I very much concur with reasons for liking Bakker’s writing.

No need to apologize. If anything that is a compliment to our growing noosphere here at Second Apocalypse. You should check out my version of a wrap-up post though – The Unholy Consult[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-unholy-consult-t1188643.html).


Oh yeah, that is indeed a plus-sized wrap-up post!  Thanks for the link.  Reading it now with great relish.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:45:58 pm
Quote from: coobek
THE KING MUST DIE - Yep at Cnauir, Old Moes or Akkas hand no doubt. Unless Solitary God himself will appear. Not forgetting the White Luck who already? had done it in some future path?

DUNYAIN & CONSULT BFF! - Yeah I find it obvious that Dunyains are now re-reading the Arc manuals, discussing with all Sheoarna and generally building USS Enterprise out of it - Lt.Cmdr.Data anyone. While keeping the bird and diabolic Aurango/Aurax in the dark.

SORWEEL & …MIMARA!? - Yep that is good suggestion that No-God is looking for judging eye. Very good.

144,000 - hmm have no idea

3RD TRILOGY - unfortunately that might be true or at least yet another book. I think there is a lot to cover still I imagine. Unless the UC is 800 pages.

KELLHUS AS EVIL OVERLORD - no adjectives please its so Mandati of you, just Overlord will suffice...

NATURE OF THE NO-GOD REVEALED – yep. For sure. Cnauir it is again?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:46:08 pm
Quote from: Madness
+1 coobek. I'm always after what a Dunyain would do with the Tekne. It'd probably be like mecha meets Silent Hill.

That, fyi, is the only thing I can suggest that Kellhus has as a "goal" anymore, is mastering the Tekne. Could Kellhus have made it to Golgotterath alone?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:46:16 pm
Quote from: coobek
Yes I think the Tekne is or should be his real goal if he still is 'regular' Dunyain and not 'crazy' one.



Probably also the invention of banking, financialization and derivatives - to finally be the master of the universe.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:46:26 pm
Quote from: Borric
I’m not saying you’re wrong here, I’m just curious as to what use you think he would put the Tekne?
Besides just another weapon I can’t think of any huge benefit (crucially, any immediate benefit, as his creations via genetics would take time to grow)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:46:33 pm
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Borric
I’m not saying you’re wrong here, I’m just curious as to what use you think he would put the Tekne?
Besides just another weapon I can’t think of any huge benefit (crucially, any immediate benefit, as his creations via genetics would take time to grow)

Its additional piece of puzzle to understand the universe and therefore What Comes Before. Information. I think. So For the sake of it, for the sake of knowing.

Somebody written in the old forum that Kelhus is in fact an exemplification of a science or scientific approach in the books (vs other phylosophical approaches) so this is only logical step to know more.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:46:42 pm
Quote from: Madness
While I realize we have some astute chemists and biologists kicking around, I'd hazard that this is fiction. Kellhus would instantly know more about the Tekne then anyone alive (even to the point of being a prodigy among the dead Inchoroi, as the Tekne is tailor made for Dunyain philosophy). He's probably going to do something to himself to move further towards the Self-Moving Soul - which seems to be inherent to "saving the world," if he's interested in that at all.

+1 coobek. The Dunyain need the "true" foundational variables of the world - their Project is flawed in isolation. Sorcery. Faith. The Tekne?

War is mostly necessary for worldly domination.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:46:48 pm
Quote from: Borric
I used to think he required the Tekne for immortality.

But after reading the first half of the Unholy Consult chapter, it’s obvious this was not how Shaeonanra achieved his immortality.
So i guess it was yet another Tekne ability they have lost, or one that does not work for humans.

So i had kind of ruled out a search for immortality, and can’t see another great reason/use for the Tekne.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:46:58 pm
Quote from: Garet Jax
Quote from: Madness

Btw, out of curiousity, have you all realized that Mimara is going to die giving birth to a stillborn baby?


(Post from another thread that reminded me of this one.)

An Anasurimbor womb plague?  Has Kellhus been to the Ark and striving for immortality the same way the nonmen were "granted" theirs?  Fits kind of nice into the idea that AK would want to learn the Tekne to add to his known variables. 

"Don't be born into a world of automatic damnation if your goal is salvation." -Me

Not sure if that is where you were going with it, but that is where you led me...
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:47:13 pm
Quote from: WillemB
I like this idea that Kellhus would be after the Tekne.  If he is indeed still sane, we need to assume that his feelings towards humanity and the Consult are essentially ambivalent; important only in as much as they help him towards his goal.

I could see a scenario where he uses the Ordeal as a bargaining chip/entry point into cutting a deal with the Consult, maybe acting as mediator in exchange for access to their technology.  Maybe he helps them establish themselves in their own little bubble in the Outside, or gets them to agree to some kind of truce.

You know, that would be logical, and Dunyain-esque, but is a bit of a whimpering finale to the series, isn't it?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:47:20 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Garet Jax
Quote from: Madness

Btw, out of curiousity, have you all realized that Mimara is going to die giving birth to a stillborn baby?


(Post from another thread that reminded me of this one.)

An Anasurimbor womb plague?  Has Kellhus been to the Ark and striving for immortality the same way the nonmen were "granted" theirs?  Fits kind of nice into the idea that AK would want to learn the Tekne to add to his known variables. 

"Don't be born into a world of automatic damnation if your goal is salvation." -Me

Not sure if that is where you were going with it, but that is where you led me...

riffing off this, what if the 'no births' thing was not at all related to the no-god?  What if it was a coincidence that it occurred at the same time? and because both occurred, everyone has always assumed that the No-God is the cause--particularly because all men could feel his presence.  They've made a classic cognitive error!

So what would cause the 'no births' thing?  Someone having the judging eye getting pregnant and giving birth for the first time.  And the 'no births' effect of the judging eye persists until the death of the person with the judging eye or the death of the TJE child (last child born).

So the whole reason humanity rallied against the No God (the no births) was not even a cause of the No God.  Perhaps TJE was caused by Ajokli, as a WLW esque phenomena meant to oppose the No God.

This would make the Consult a little less dumb.   And once they realize that humanity is unified against them for no reason of their own (they probably thought they had come up with a clever little anti-damnation device), they decide to take the field.  For two reasons, one, Shae is freaked out because The Inverse Fire still shows them as damned, and the No God was supposed to stop that so they want TJE to confirm the IF diagnosis.  and two, if they manage to kill whatever random chick has TJE, they end the no births phenomena and that will end humanity's will to fight and they can go back to turtle in Golgotteranth for eternity, with their little corner of the world shut to the outside.

The problem then arises that when TJE sees the NG the metaphysics that allow the No God are neutralized and a new ground is reasserted, a frame without the No God is established and the No God goes pfft.

When the No God goes pfft, everyone around dies, unless they were a sorcerer with a ward up.

That means the random peasant woman of Mengedda who had the Judging Eye who saw the No God with it died moments after the No God died, thus ending the No Births effect of the Judging Eye manifesting in the world--and neatly terminating the gods' interference in the world after the useful human has no more use.

And no one was ever the wiser.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:47:28 pm
Quote from: Madness
For my own part, I'd suggest that the stillborn thing is important.

Attribution errors aside, the years of stillbirth, associated with the No-God's existence are a horrifying thought.

Mimara has the Judging Eye. This apparently only afflicts woman who will become pregnant at some point in their lives. Achamian explicitly says that the pregnancy results in a stillborn baby and it is implied in the text and what Achamian omits that the women die during childbirth.

Children, wombs, childbirth, seed - all big motifs.

+1 for hypotheses, lockesnow.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:47:36 pm
Quote from: pappu
This is just a completely random thought... :D

What if Kellhus, contrary to his preaching, knows of his own damnation; the damnation that accompanies his mark? What if he is trying to erase that very damnation? What if the whole Great Ordeal is an attempt to rewrite the laws of the world; the laws of balance? What if the only way for Kellhus to accomplish this is to kill the original makers of these laws? What if Kellhus is trying to kill the Gods??

That would be an extra reason for Yatwer wanting him dead so badly. Also, he could be planning to use the consult's technology to open a gate of some sort to the outerworld and war against the gods themselves.

Kellhus might not be the man who we think him to be. He could simply have gone mad with power. Maybe his whole divine quest is just a cover-up for a war driven by one man's lust for power.

I think that's one of the greatest aspects of Bakker's writing. You can never tell what's right and what's wrong. Unlike in many other fantasy works, his characters are real. They are all raw human beings and are subject to the flaws and urges that come so naturally to us; the whims and fancies. There is no distinct good and evil. Just people in a bloody devastated godforsaken world; a lot like ours.

And maybe the qirri will have some effect on Mimara's childbirth??
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:47:48 pm
Quote from: Madness
+1 for thoughts, pappu.

Yes... the Qirri.

And now that they've lost all of Cu'jara Cinmoi, how is Nil'giccas going to affect them differently?

Are the Intact all just snorting their dead heroes?!
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:48:02 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Why would Kellhus still be striving for the self moving soul?  He is not a dunyain any longer, and even if he were he is too enmeshed in the darkness to precede it now.
He may not care if you are crushed by the pursuit of his quest, but neither does he recieve gratification for any achievement.  So why would he pursue immortality?  Indeed, what point in surviving the completion of his mission?

If he thinks he needs to escape damnation - maybe.  But I think he's too crazy to believe that.

The other dunyain themselves would not be damned, anyway.  They are protected by their isolation.
Quote from: RSB
The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:48:09 pm
Quote from: Madness
I think those are assumptions about Kellhus, Curethan, like all our assertions are.

So the Righteous God requires that you attract its attention to gain Absolution... much safer to not play the game at all, rather than try and live righteously.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:48:26 pm
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
+1 for thoughts, pappu.
Are the Intact all just snorting their dead heroes?!

Did Cleric ever actually take qirri himself, or did he just administer it?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:48:34 pm
Quote from: Madness
I actually don't think I've had a copy of TJE since I started the forum, having lent them out. Where I am the most common Bakker titles to be carried anywhere are TDTCB and WLW - I never make a point to order one.

However, I recently found confirmation among the posts on Three Seas/Wayback that on p399 (I believe) of TJE Mimara sees Cleric with the Judging Eye and he too is Damned - though, obviously, the reasons for his damnation are up for his debate like Achamian's - all in the quest to prove or disprove Kellhus' assertion that Sorcery is no longer Damned.

You know, books not on hand, I figure, Cleric never did. This is Cleric's plan all along - addict people to Qirri, eventually deny it to them, most addicts will fight you for their fix.

And now I think I've decided that Cleric did, in fact, give up. He wanted to die as Nil'giccas and fighting Achamian/Seswatha at Sauglish was probably all too overwhelming for him - when was that specific kind of traumatic circumstance ever going to randomly happen again.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:48:43 pm
Quote from: Triskele
He says something like "This is where I'm meant to die" when they arrive...
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:48:51 pm
Quote from: Madness
Oh, we have a thread ;): The Cleric Suicides...[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-cleric-suicides-t1222238.html).

In fact, you're the last person to post in it.

I just never agreed with him committing suicide before. Revelation on my part.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:48:58 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Mithfanion, 2005
Scott, could you say who or what is Nin-Ciljiras? He (or it) is mentioned by the Inchoroi...

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
He's a character in The Aspect-Emperor...

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
Mansion' is used both as a term to describe Nonmen cities, and much as the way 'House' is used - as an epithet for dynasties, families, etc.

In my old notes the Nonmen also used totemic devices, but in the multi-form manner that characterizes much of their art. So for instance, a Nonmen representation of a wolf would likely show it occupying two or more postures at once, like sleeping/running.

Having Nonmen blood means many things - things, which come to the fore when the Nonmen take a more active role in The Aspect-Emperor. Sometimes I feel like you're the dirty old man in the strip bar sitting on sniff row shouting 'take it off!'

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004
The Aspect-Emperor, another trilogy which returns to the demented cast (those that survive, that is) of PON some twenty years later. More than a few people groan when I say this, which is why I always feel the need to explain myself! First, I conceived and roughed out the greater cycle of stories (as a trilogy of trilogies) the year before WoT came out, so this is most definitely not a case of me slavishly following commercial precedents. This means, secondly, that every book in the series is motivated by STORY, and not money (if there is any in this business!) Third, PON is a complete tale, and not merely the first third of one. The relationship of AE to PON is more akin to the relationship between the Dune books, though the narrative arc that binds them - the story of the Second Apocalypse - is, I like to think, less ad hoc than Herbert's.

As strange as it sounds, I look at PON as my version of The Hobbit.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004
Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.

There, I've gone and said too much!
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:49:08 pm
Quote from: Triskele
That makes it sound like getting Ishterebinth to come over to the Great Ordeal is crucial.  Not that saying so it too surprising, but it sounds like there are indeed a lot of powerful Quya that can still be swayed.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:49:17 pm
Quote from: Madness
+1. Whether they're necessary for the Ordeal or not is incidental to me. I've wanted to experience Ishterebinth since TWP.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:49:25 pm
Quote from: WillemB
Hmm... most of the way through WLW, almost done in fact.  Kellhus' appearance at the end of the climactic battle in the book, and his subsequent use of metagnosis (I assume) to blast a legion of sranc back through the air inspired further reflection on his motives.

Here's an addition/amendment to my original post in this thread:

Kellhus - Aspiring God/Demon:  Kellhus' objective is to keep the world open (in contrast to Moe) so that his followers can better worship him in the afterlife.  We know that the followers of Yatwer need only "reach to her" when they die.  How better to become a truly self-moving soul than to transcend; to be come a god/demon a la Yatwer, to set up his own little slice-o-heaven.  Perhaps to be a god one need only have believers (echoes of Malazan?). 

So, Kellhus willingly dies, sacrificed in pursuance of the salvation of humanity.   By grooming Proyas' expectations about the nature of his divinity, Kellhus prepares him for the inevitable fact of his (Kellhus') own self-sacrifice/death, "conditioning the path".  Consider this bit:

Quote
“We begin believing when we are children,” Kellhus continued. “And so we make childish expectations our rule, the measure for what the holy should be …” He gestured to the ornamentation about them, spare as it was compared with the fleshpots of the South. “Simplicity. Symmetry. Beauty. These are but the appearance of the holy—the gilding that deceives. What is holy is difficult, ugly beyond comprehension, in the eyes of all save the God.”

So, just as the Circumfix is the symbol for this portion of Kellhus' journey to godhood, a little iconized version of him getting skewered by Aurang (a moment that is "ugly beyond comprehension") will be the symbol for the next.  Proyas, properly invested by Kellhus with leadership of the Ordeal, will cry a slow-mo "nooooooooooooooooo" then tearfully lead the armies of men, with some help from Akka, Mimara, and the Heron Spear, to finally vanquish the Consult (and Cnaiur, who will show up on a balcony at Golgotterath, sipping a cup-o Sanka while ur-Serwe massages his feet). 

All the Three Seas will spend the rest of forever happily worshipping Kellhus and populate his private playground in the Outside.  Because this is such a tidy ending, RSB will announce that there will be no 3rd trilogy, and will plaster an italicized 'fin' on the last page of The Unholy Consult, closing the book on Earwa for once and all.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:49:36 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: WillemB
Kellhus' objective is to keep the world open (in contrast to Moe) so that his followers can better worship him in the afterlife. We know that the followers of Yatwer need only "reach to her" when they die. How better to become a truly self-moving soul than to transcend; to be come a god/demon a la Yatwer, to set up his own little slice-o-heaven. Perhaps to be a god one need only have believers (echoes of Malazan?)

Moenghus did it first :). I've plugged this thought for some time, in small measure, that Kellhus might use Dagliash to attempt something of this nature. However, if he does, that means it's extremely likely that Moenghus the Elder did the same thing at Shimeh/Kyudea.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:49:43 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Why use Dagliash when Golgotterath is so liguistically similar to Golgotha?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:49:52 pm
Quote from: WillemB
I knew that Moenghus had followers among the Cish much like Kellhus did with his "little Dunyani" when he journeyed south, but what/how did Moenghus achieve godhood at Shimeh/Kyudea, and what parallel do we get if Kellhus does so in Dagliash?

You know, you just got me starting to wonder if Meppa could be Moe, now this...
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:50:02 pm
Quote from: Athjeäri
I have been absent from these forums for far too long!  Wow! Some really interesting discussion taking place across several topics.  I have some more free-time, so I'll do my best to catch up and keep up.

I really like the idea that Moënghus has more to add to the overall story.  I absolutely loved the dialogue between Kellhus and Moë, but I felt that Moë should have been more influential on the story as a whole.  Maybe he his, only time and TUC will tell. 

I've recently been reading the speculation on Meppa as well, but I do not believe Meppa is Moë, it seems too far fetched and Meppa would be quite old. 

I think the end of TUC will tie up several loose ends, but ultimately leave us hanging or introduce something we've never even considered. The third series, that shall not be named, is still to come as far as I know and I am assuming that is where we'll get full closure.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:50:09 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol. Athjeari - The Wind Has Teeth returns!

Wow. You know, we can continue that sorcery/linguistic conversation we started some five years ago: It's actually topical in the Cishaurim[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/cishaurim-t1193485.html) thread right now.

Did you ever finish that rhetoric paper on PON?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:50:17 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Athjeäri
I've recently been reading the speculation on Meppa as well, but I do not believe Meppa is Moë, it seems too far fetched and Meppa would be quite old. 

Welcome back, Athjeäri.
Not that I subscribe, but longevity is one of the benefits of Nonman heritage.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:50:24 pm
Quote from: WillemB
I have this vision of Yatwer incarnating in her true, demonic/goddess form, and Meppa ne Moe shivving her while she makes ready to devour Mimara.  Booyah, the gods just got flanked!

A boy can dream.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:50:32 pm
Quote from: Athjeäri
Good to be back, thanks folks.

I did finish my rhetorical paper on PON, it was actually my MA thesis and a beast of a project. I'd be interested to continue our discussion, Madness, but I can't for the life of me remember where we left off.  I posted on the Cishaurim thread, so maybe you can reply to my post and refresh my memory...(makes me feel kinda like a Nonman...I remember...I remember...)

I can't see the very distant Nonmen heritage playing a factor in Moë (or even Kellhus) but it's a possibility.  Meppa is an interesting character, but I think it more likely that he is a machination of Moë and not Moë himself.   Either that, or he is just the last Cish and is significant in that regard.

I'm honestly also really curious about the WLW.  That man obviously has a much larger role to play in the story as well.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:50:39 pm
Quote from: Madness
Actually, I recently found the original thread, Athjeari - Sovin Nai (aengelas here) has reopened a read-only version of the Three-Seas so we could mine it for speculative fodder for the Second Apocalypse - you know, old members quoting Cu'jara Cinmoi and such.

Also, on that note - I'll have to track it down - but there's a quote been posted about Nonmen blood coming to fore in Aspect-Emperor.

Lol, I'm sure there's much for you to explore.

Quote from: Willem
I knew that Moenghus had followers among the Cish much like Kellhus did with his "little Dunyani" when he journeyed south, but what/how did Moenghus achieve godhood at Shimeh/Kyudea, and what parallel do we get if Kellhus does so in Dagliash?

You know, you just got me starting to wonder if Meppa could be Moe, now this...

Sorry, Willem, missed this before. My Nerdanel goes like this:

Moenghus commanded a Sect of Cishaurim (we could probably suggest that he actually reinterpreted the kipfa’aifan - Witness of Fane - like Kellhus does the Tractate). If reinterpreting Belief, reinterprets the Outside (and this really grew out of an old forum theory that Belief was pervasive - really providing the Gods with power. If no one believes, no God exists, etc), then Moenghus/Kellhus cultivated new realms of the Outside while their are alive.

Inri Sejenus apparently really ascends at Kyudea, not Shimeh - so the division between reality is already malleable there. Moenghus dies while all the Cishaurim die but in a sense, they die defending him, their spiritual leader, and their spiritual teachings.

Then there's the reaching towards your God, or the ancestral spaces of the Outside, segues.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 26, 2013, 01:24:57 pm
*Curethan uses resurrection.*

My theories on what is to come change from day to day.  I'm more comfortable speculating on interpretations of the consistent world building and the possibilities of what has come before.

Just for laughs though, I'll attempt to amuse with some predictions.  Interested in what others think might happen if anyone else wants to add some lengthy post of hogwash.

In Momemn, I think it's Esme and Meppa vs Psatma and the WLW.  I'm thinking Fanayal or Kelmomas might be the 'emperor' that the WLW kills.  Fanayal has actually been anointed by Kellhus, Ajokli or Gilgaol.  Without any reason to guess one way or another, I can't guess further at his role but I think he will die one way or another.  Meppa to somehow save Esme from WLW - he will lose his shit when they meet.  Malowebi may be the key to getting Meppa and Esme united against Psatma/Yatwer - I think he will remind Esme of Akka.  The new empire is def screwed though.  Only Malowebi and Esme survive.

Sorweel and co will find Ishterebinth largely empty and the remaining intact will be ignorant of the supposed deal with Kellhus.  Consult agents (who have intercepted Kellhus' previous attempts at contact) will try to kill them.  Sorweel will be revealed as Yatwer's pawn and may convince the remaining intact to sacrifice themselves in this final conflict. 

The ordeal will founder at Dagliash.  Some type of elaborate double cross with the nonmen who are allied with the consult. Kellhus has anticipated it and fakes his death and heads to Golgotteroth, possibly with the remnants of the Mandate and some of the Swayali (the destruction of the Mandate's army was a deliberate sacrifice to convince the Consult they are spent).  The Ordeal will be besieged at Dagliash, subsisting on Sranc meat and fanatacism.  Lead by Proyas (who knows Kellhus isn't dead) they will hold out, keeping the consult busy.  Kayutas will be key to stopping the skin spies from infiltrating.

Akka and Mimara fart around amongst the ruins of Ishual.  His dreams worsen and convincing him that the no-god is about to rise again.  He realizes that their child will be the first stillborn when Mog rises.  Kellhus turns up and Akka lays aside his quest for vengeance.  They head to Golgotteroth.

Whatever happens there, happens off screen.  The ordeal is almost destroyed, Sorweel and the intact turn up but can only slow the inevitable.  They feel the Mog arise in Golgotteroth.   Dragons turn up at Dagliash, the sranc start to scream 'WHAT DO YOU SEE' etc.  All is lost...

BOOM!  Golgotteroth explodes on the horizon.  The whole world becomes anarcane ground.  The hundred are banished, sorcery no longer works.  Proyas and Sorweel survive.  They find Akka's body clutching a new born baby, Kellhus nearby.  Sorweel kills Kellhus who seems happy to die.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on November 26, 2013, 02:48:46 pm
Wow that was elaborate. Good job lol.

So in this ending, the Consult 'win', the world is shut... What happens to the No-God? He just swirls around Golgotterath or something?
Also, is the baby alive?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on November 26, 2013, 04:12:34 pm
Lol nah, I think in Curethan's version, Kellhus, Achamian, and Mimara 'win' but we don't get to know how they did it, they just destroy the No-God and the Ark somehow, close the world, which cancels sorcery, and voila, pre-modern scientific world [where Gods and Demon and forces outside human control are negated, leaving humans the rule of the earth.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on November 26, 2013, 06:46:01 pm
I must have missed the subtext
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 27, 2013, 02:37:39 am
Yep, baby is alive.  It's the focus of TSTMNBN (Leto analogue). Offscreen happenings because I think the ending will be very ambiguous. 
The consult kind of achieve their objectives, but the no-god is subverted or destroyed.  Maybe it turns out they were being used by the solitary god to screw/reabsorb the hundred and stop the non-men from drilling holes in reality.

No one else is game to entertain?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: locke on November 27, 2013, 07:47:02 am
No one else is game to entertain?
I am, so long as we assume Mimara is Achamian's daughter, and he refuses to think about it just like he refuses to think about how he caused Inrau to be damned...
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 27, 2013, 09:29:32 am
Sure buddy.  Pile on the revelations!
Just tell us what happens to each of the four groups.  If your not sure how shit should play out, make it happen off camera. ;D
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on November 27, 2013, 11:14:20 am
Yep, baby is alive.  It's the focus of TSTMNBN (Leto analogue).

Honestly, I'll be pissed if another fucking baby grows up to participate in TSTSNBN and so bridge the gap between series (not really, I actually kind of like it but gall (in the style South Park's Randy)). Achamian just won't survive that long without a serious supply of Burnt Nonmen or the Consult treatment and I don't want the old man to turn to the dark side (even if they are later revealed to be objectively correct and morally righteous) :'(.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wic on November 28, 2013, 03:54:21 am
Interesting to think of how, just as armies are considered merely the meatshields used to ferry the actually useful sorcerers, that the whole Ordeal is a meat/metaphysical (which I now dub metameatshield) vehicle to do no more than propel Kellhus to Golgotterath.

But then, why?  If he was at all interested in allying with the Consult (or simply did not care what they do one way or another so long as he gets his) he surely wouldn't need to slaughter a quarter million people and allow his empire to collapse. 

Nerdanel: Kellhus wants to use the tekne and the metagnosis to create a ship capable of entering the Outside and doing a little redecorating.  :D

Anyway, I'm of the mind that he truly intends to destroy the evil that is the Consult, though I am on the fence about whether this makes him insane or is a totally reasonable perspective, given the crazy magical nature of the world.  If any Dunyain survive, they probably side with the consult, as Kellhus predicted any regular ol' Dunyain would do in his conversation with Moe (unless he slaughtered them because of it).  And then he dies as the savior of the world, stepping into the Outside with the full, hand-glowy might of such a position.  If that happens it seems like others have said, that it will parallel the FA, Akka kneeling with Kell's head in his lap, etc etc.

Then he vomits up a flaming sword and puts gods to death.  Next step: The God.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Francis Buck on November 28, 2013, 04:02:33 am
I agree with Curethan in regards to the World becoming disenchanted, though I don't think it will happen until the very end of the series. I think that's the end goal though.

If I had to bet, I believe that Kellhus is intentionally going to become the No-God, which also (somewhat ironically) serves as mechanism for becoming The Solitary God. All souls in the universe are captured and condensed into a single entity (including the Hundred, Ciphrang, everything), which is a Monad-like Sum of All Consciousness. That is the God "awakening", and it only sleeps now because it's "splintered into a million warring pieces", as Kellhus said. All souls are removed, Outside is shut, no more sorcery, everyone basically becomes a skin-spy (resulting in Bakker's idea of what our universe basically is). I think Akka will end up doing one of two things: A) He will join the Consult, after finding out that Seswatha did the same, or B) He will continue obssesively, and futiley, fighting against the Consult even when their intentions end up seeming "good". This is all hinges on my belief that the Consult are, in reality, sort of anti-heroes. The Hundred are the true "bad guys" (obviously it's kind of silly to think of "good guys and bad guys" in such a complex series, but it's for the sake of discussion). As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred). A few million dead humans, the cost of bringing back the No-God, is nothing compared to an entire universe worth of damned beings. The absolute worst tortures the Consult could conceive are nothing compared to damnation, and damnation is on a scale that utterly dwarfs the atrocities the Consult has committed.

I have no clue how much of this I think will actually happen in TUC. I'm kinda confused about it actually, particular that one quote Bakker had about TUC being the end-point of the series as he originally imagined it.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 28, 2013, 07:25:19 am
Awesome thoughts, Wic and FB.

I'm not convinced being the no-god is something anyone would aspire to.  He doesn't seem very happy.

I'm not sure how the God can awaken?  If it is omnipresent throughout time, how can it think or act?  If there were no gaps in your perception and everything seemed to occur both simultaneously and constantly, how can you act or think?  Memory becomes the same as being.  ha ha ha ha ha

FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 12:22:09 pm
But then, why?  If he was at all interested in allying with the Consult (or simply did not care what they do one way or another so long as he gets his) he surely wouldn't need to slaughter a quarter million people and allow his empire to collapse.

Tekne. And Kellhus is not just walking up to say "diddly neighbourino," Golgotterath's the last house on the block he's taking by force or coercion. Stinking Consult - Kellhus will make them weep for mastering their lost craft.

Also, +1 Metameatshield.

...

Lol. Nerdaneling hard.

In my opinion, if Kellhus does anything qualified as 'good,' then he is no longer Dunyain (as we've traditionally assumed them motivated) unless it is strictly a correspondence of cause, not an end in and of itself.

B) He will continue obssesively, and futiley, fighting against the Consult even when their intentions end up seeming "good". This is all hinges on my belief that the Consult are, in reality, sort of anti-heroes.

NooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo :'(.

The Hundred are the true "bad guys" (obviously it's kind of silly to think of "good guys and bad guys" in such a complex series, but it's for the sake of discussion). As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred). A few million dead humans, the cost of bringing back the No-God, is nothing compared to an entire universe worth of damned beings. The absolute worst tortures the Consult could conceive are nothing compared to damnation, and damnation is on a scale that utterly dwarfs the atrocities the Consult has committed.

I have no clue how much of this I think will actually happen in TUC. I'm kinda confused about it actually, particular that one quote Bakker had about TUC being the end-point of the series as he originally imagined it.

Maybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).

FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.

Lol - this makes me think that TSTSNBN is a ruse. Fuck.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 02:47:39 pm
As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred).
What is the suffering or mortal men for a few thousand years compared to the everlasting torture of all men's souls for eternity?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Francis Buck on November 29, 2013, 04:20:58 am
Quote
I'm not convinced being the no-god is something anyone would aspire to.  He doesn't seem very happy.

I only think Kellhus would want to do so if it served as a mechanism for becoming the God. Which I think is a relatively decent possibility at this point. The consciousness we see emerging (and asking questions) is the result of the all the souls being captured and condensed into one entity. It's a baby God (the real God, not something like whatever the Hundred are -- which I suspect are similar to super-ciphrang, but also more complex than that).

Quote
I'm not sure how the God can awaken?  If it is omnipresent throughout time, how can it think or act?  If there were no gaps in your perception and everything seemed to occur both simultaneously and constantly, how can you act or think?  Memory becomes the same as being.  ha ha ha ha ha

Not sure I'm interpreting you correctly, but to your question: It can't think or act, at least not yet. It's not, at this point in the story, really a "thing" yet. It's still split up into a million warring splinters, as Kellhus said to the Nonmen messengers. It is awakened by Kellhus becoming the No-God, merging all of the souls in the universe, and then closing the Outside (and him, now the Awakened God, still in the Outside). It leaves the universe essentially the same as our own; purely material. No souls, no sorcery.

I do believe that this ties into the whole Kahit, world-conspires malarkey, and also the timeline. I think that everything in the Bakkerverse is predestined (although free will still exists for the ensouled beings, they were just always going to make whatever decisions they made). This is also why Kellhus seems insane, and sort of it is, but also kind of isn't. He has seen the Shortest Path, the Thousandfold Thought, and it ends with him becoming the God. He also serves, in a way, as the saviour not just of mankind, but of all the souls in the universe, by freeing them from their shells (possibly enforced by the Demiurge-like Hundred) and then allows them to become one, ultimate being, the Absolute. I don't have the exact quotes, but there are sequences where Kellhus actually pretty clearly illustrates how the Dunyain's concept of the Absolute is very much like the real-life Gnostic concept of the Monad (also known, in real life, as the Absolute). I'll try to find them. I believe one of the scenes takes place when Akka's training him.

Quote
FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.

Yeah, that's what I'm unclear on. If it really is quite conclusive, then I'm not sure what I feel about the various characters, or even how these things I've mentioned will play out. Do you think that TSTSNBN is actually going to be more of an epilogue sort of thing?

Quote
NooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo :'(.

Lol, you have to admit it would be a rather tragic and poetic arc for the character though.

Quote
Maybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).

Well yeah, that's what all this rides one. What is damnation, really? I tend to lean towards it really being as bad as the Inverse Fire makes it seem. I mean, it would kind of undercut a huge part of the tension, suspense, and stakes of the series if, in the end, it's just like, "Ah, well, damnation isn't so bad afterall!". If that is the case, I'm very damn curious to see how Bakker could possibly turn it back around and still maintain that sense of epic stakes that the series is well-loved for.

Quote
What is the suffering or mortal men for a few thousand years compared to the everlasting torture of all men's souls for eternity?

Nothing really, that's the point of what I'm saying. Not sure I get what you mean really?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 29, 2013, 05:32:21 am
So awakening God is the same as killing it?  'Cause 'God is dead' seems like a fitting end to me.  Khellus = Niestche (beyond good and evil, he brings the final argument).
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on November 29, 2013, 02:19:22 pm
FB, as a whole I like your post. I'm not sure that is where Bakker is going with it - because I think he's likely to obliterate the Absolute (in the sense you've used it), rather than leave it happily amalgamated in the Outside. But specifics...

Yeah, that's what I'm unclear on. If it really is quite conclusive, then I'm not sure what I feel about the various characters, or even how these things I've mentioned will play out. Do you think that TSTSNBN is actually going to be more of an epilogue sort of thing?

I really, really hope not. I still hold by my opinion that Bakker is talking about the essential kernel of the story, which he's always worked towards since he was like 16 - which obviously became more once the story began to take serious shape. In Machiavelli's writings the ruler's, apparently, insoluble Gordian Knot is being morally Righteous while still being necessitated to commit evil.

Quote
NooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo :'(.

Lol, you have to admit it would be a rather tragic and poetic arc for the character though.

Yeah... :'(.

Quote
Maybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).

Well yeah, that's what all this rides one. What is damnation, really? I tend to lean towards it really being as bad as the Inverse Fire makes it seem. I mean, it would kind of undercut a huge part of the tension, suspense, and stakes of the series if, in the end, it's just like, "Ah, well, damnation isn't so bad afterall!". If that is the case, I'm very damn curious to see how Bakker could possibly turn it back around and still maintain that sense of epic stakes that the series is well-loved for.

I don't expect him to be gentle but I don't expect something like that. However, again, Damnation is like a side argument for me. Regardless of the ambomination's finished potential as the star of book burnings everywhere, nothing could possibly overturn the epic for me... Bakker would have to go straight Dickensian on this shit and I'd still read the first five.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: locke on December 01, 2013, 07:12:40 am
Posted this to the turtle thread at the other forum in a longer form, but it goes here too, my spoil it all prediction for how it all ends:

We readers just willfully misinterpret Kellhus because we are primed by genre and history to expect him to take the path of saving the world.  But what if Kellhus takes the dead twig because killing off the world, letting humanity become extinct is the only way to end the cycle of damnation?
 
The only end game is xenocide, it's the merciful death, quick euthanasia.  Because Kellhus weighs the value of making humanity extinct and finds that that will reduce human suffering more because it won't subject infinite future generations to damnation as well. 
 
Making humanity extinct puts a finite end to previously infinite suffering.  They are not equal, the dead twig is the better outcome.  He's searching for meaninglessness in a meaningful world.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on December 02, 2013, 02:15:33 pm
I took Curethan's suggestion into consideration and moved some of our posts (including those most recent) to My spoil it all prediction for what the overall setting is (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=990.45).
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 02, 2013, 11:28:46 pm
Thanks Madness :)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on December 03, 2013, 05:05:52 pm
No, no. Thank YOU for participating so I don't have to wonder about what is appropriate. I like our communal segues but I also appreciate the freedom to concentrate on one particular line of speculation in a thread - instead of the alternative swamping ;).
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on February 10, 2014, 04:56:49 am
I'm hoping UC ends with an epic scene of K using the gnosis+daimos+dunyain intellect to call something even bigger than a ciphrang to the battlefield.  NG vs the hundred?  Yatwer a temporary slave to K?  Actually, I bet that will be a little bit before the end.  I'm expecting K to dispose with Aurang, Mekeritrig, and Shauriatas and then have an intimate chat with Aurax deep in Ark's bowels.  (V) 0,,,0 (V)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on February 10, 2014, 12:35:25 pm
I definitely think that there will be another climatic talk but my money is on it being between Kellhus and Meppa (though, I've alternatively nerdaneled Kellhus talking with the Consult) while the Holy War dies...

Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2014, 05:24:31 pm
Really... with Meppa? I doubt Kellhus will come back to talk to meppa. Maybe with Kelmomas or another 1/2 dunyain, but I don't see Kellhus returning. I think its more likely that he left his empire to die.

Any big conversation he has will probably be with a Nonman (erratic or intact) with an intimate knowledge of the Consult.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on February 10, 2014, 05:30:03 pm
Common' son.

I'm all about Meppa mirroring the Preacher a la Dune (and being Moenghus the Elder).
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2014, 06:29:42 pm
Distance really isn't an issue with Kellhus, but he just seems so remote. I have trouble seeing him spending the weekend jumping back to the Empire to chat with Meppa... Unless he thinks he can bring him back and use him in the Ordeal somehow.

[Edit]
Except that perhaps Kellhus must return to the Empire in order for the White-Luck to have the opportunity to kill him.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on February 10, 2014, 08:15:18 pm
I'd have to dig out the Dune books but:

(click to show/hide)

[Edit]
Except that perhaps Kellhus must return to the Empire in order for the White-Luck to have the opportunity to kill him.

I think the White-Luck Warrior defeating Kellhus is part of Kellhus' plan (if it even happens like the Warrior perceives) but I cannot wait for that sword fight.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2014, 08:36:52 pm
Off topic, I saw the original Dune movie, and it was terrible. Would not recommend.

Dune spoilers
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on February 10, 2014, 09:38:14 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on February 10, 2014, 09:40:44 pm
WLW is going to kill the emperor.  Might not be Kellhus by that time. :P
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on February 10, 2014, 10:25:23 pm
WLW is going to kill the emperor.  Might not be Kellhus by that time. :P

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't notice it the first time through.  Wonder who it could be if not Kellhus?  Kelmomas?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on February 10, 2014, 10:26:52 pm
Fanayal?  That would be hilarious. ;D
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2014, 10:31:58 pm
Wait... Does Mr. White-Luck not not explicitly state Kellhus? I'm going to be upset that I missed it if thats true.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on February 10, 2014, 10:35:00 pm
Pretty sure that WLW only future remembers/thinks about killing 'the emperor'.

Little factoid that I noted when I was speculating why Yatwer would have Sorweel poised to kill Kellhus when the WLW was already seemingly set up to do just that.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on February 11, 2014, 12:58:43 pm
Just says Aspect-Emperor. It also does also say wicked beyond compare... but that's ambigious. I never really gave much credence to the idea of it being a substitute AE though.

Will note again that the Aspect-Emperor is written as that from the Warrior's perspective while it says Holy Shriah, Holy Empress, and Holy Crone (for Psatma).

EDIT:

Pretty sure that WLW only future remembers/thinks about killing 'the emperor'.

Little factoid that I noted when I was speculating why Yatwer would have Sorweel poised to kill Kellhus when the WLW was already seemingly set up to do just that.

No issue. We've been speculating multiple Warriors. But Narindar is the cultural myth used to digest those who kill in the name of the Gods. The Warrior walks the perfect path.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on February 11, 2014, 10:45:55 pm
Thinking along the lines of how the good guys pushed back the Mordor forces at that battle in front of that big white castle--Kellhus turns up with the great ordeal+ishterbinth forces+the fifth tribe and their schools+the zeumi navy+the zeumi schools+remenants of the thought to be annihilated human slave race+wutteat+U.S. Marines and the Red Sox.

This coalition simply defeats the Consult and throw the ark back into space.  All is well, there are no more books, Frodo goes home.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 11, 2014, 11:02:41 pm
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on February 19, 2014, 12:03:16 am
Mayhaps Bakker likes scripture so much, TUC ends John 3:16 style.  Moe sacrafices his son for the werld
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on February 25, 2014, 06:20:33 pm
Crazyasscrackpotending: It's revealed that the nonmen/inchoroi are suffering from massive pervasive delusion.  The Ark never fell from the sky, the inchoroi are nothing more than a branch of the nonmen changed over millenia.  They conceive of a grand scheme to evade damnation, but know that it will only work if they believe their own lies (smelling plato) so they invent the inverse fire to compel belief.  It's the last thing they do after constructing the ark, filling it with bodies, and setting off an explosion across gogongorea destroying viri.  LOL

EDIT: Just adding this bit, Bakker seems bent on genre-bending and reader-expectation-twisting, the above would fit since the story WOULDN'T actually be scifi at all (no aliens, all fantasy) and he could get rid of all the other things like stars being other suns.  Earwe really is the center of the universe, it's not like our world, there is nothing but stars circling above.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on February 27, 2014, 01:46:21 pm
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P

I thought the SA Noosphere had claimed rights to finish the series should he pass.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2014, 06:45:51 pm
Yeah but he's at a daughter now, so she'd have to let us, reguardless of how much we wanted it :P.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on February 27, 2014, 10:53:17 pm
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P

I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC.  The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.

Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Somnambulist on February 27, 2014, 11:44:10 pm
That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P

I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC.  The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.

Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.

I think Nganka'kull (sp?) is possibly playing both sides.  Malowebi is with Fanayal, determining if he thinks the man can defeat Kel.  If he could, I think Zeum would support the Fanim.  If not, he might just show up to help Kel out, maybe through fear of being next on Kel's hitlist, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 28, 2014, 05:51:54 pm
Zeumi War ships would be great, but they would either have to meet up in the Meanor (sp) or the war party would have to climb the mountains. Golgotterath is pretty well landlocked.

I agree that Zeumi (nice name recall on the leader, I would never have pulled that name out of my brain) is waiting to decide who to fight for. I think it more likely that if he throws his lot in with Kellhus, then he'll show up at the seige of Sumna/Momemn rather than at Golgotterath.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on February 28, 2014, 11:29:55 pm
I have to think that Kellhus got something from Zeum and all we've seen so far is the prince.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Kosoter on March 05, 2014, 05:40:37 pm
I'm thinking that the Zeumi Prince is only there all along so he can see that Kellhus was right and that the Consult are not only real but are pretty bad dudes. I definitely think that whatever happens, the Prince will be leading Zeum against the Consult in the coming wars against the Consult after the No-God comes back. It's my pet theory that that's what TWSNBN is going to be if the series doesn't end with rocks falling and everyone dying. I'd be happy with that ending too, really.

When I first read the series, I thought for the longest time that the No-God was simply a bomb and the Consult were just morons that worshipped it as a god like those nutters in one of the Planet of the Apes movies. I thought the whole thing about creating the NG and whatnot and descriptions of his carapace were just creative ways of saying they were researching some kind of bomb and the womb-plague that made everyone infertile was simply some byproduct of it like radiation. Funnily enough, I thought the stuff at the Battleplain was the result of Seswatha accidentally detonating the No-God and releasing magical fallout everywhere. It seems really funny now but that was my first impression all those years ago :P

My personal nerdanel for the end of the series is that Kellhus is not trying to become the NG at all despite what so many people seem to think but the opposite. I've figured souls work kind of like souls do in the Warhammer universe (if you pledge your soul to X god, it becomes part of X god, making it stronger) and that Kellhus is trying to do what the Emperor did and convince loads of people to worship him as a god and dedicate their souls to him. By feeding on those souls, he can gain power in the outside and become a god himself and then enact TTT through the hearts and minds of all people. Everyone will worship him as a god when he dies (probably at the end of the series), with the Zeumi prince going home to spread the good word of the Aspect Emperor's heroic sacrifice for all humanity. Everyone worships him, he gets to not only not be damned but to feast on everyone's soul and blot out all the other gods so only he remains. By pledging their souls to him, sorcerers escape eternal damnation...meaning what he said is kind of true and he is a prophet. A prophet of himself.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 04:37:13 am
Yeah but he's at a daughter now, so she'd have to let us, reguardless of how much we wanted it :P.

Hmm. Pssh. She'll probably be a doctor or a lawyer. I can't see Bakker letting her do something impractical like writing or philosophy ;).

That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo :P

I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC.  The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.

Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.

I think Nganka'kull (sp?) is possibly playing both sides.  Malowebi is with Fanayal, determining if he thinks the man can defeat Kel.  If he could, I think Zeum would support the Fanim.  If not, he might just show up to help Kel out, maybe through fear of being next on Kel's hitlist, if nothing else.

+1, especially the bold... I figured this was fairly obvious as Malowebi basically spells it out in WLW.

I've figured souls work kind of like souls do in the Warhammer universe (if you pledge your soul to X god, it becomes part of X god, making it stronger) and that Kellhus is trying to do what the Emperor did and convince loads of people to worship him as a god and dedicate their souls to him. By feeding on those souls, he can gain power in the outside and become a god himself and then enact TTT through the hearts and minds of all people. Everyone will worship him as a god when he dies (probably at the end of the series), with the Zeumi prince going home to spread the good word of the Aspect Emperor's heroic sacrifice for all humanity. Everyone worships him, he gets to not only not be damned but to feast on everyone's soul and blot out all the other gods so only he remains. By pledging their souls to him, sorcerers escape eternal damnation...meaning what he said is kind of true and he is a prophet. A prophet of himself.

+1 - to Warhammer analogies, to Kellhus' playing for Ascension (as I think Moenghus did by the means described), and to Kellhus dying (or faking his death) and having Zsoronga return with nothing but praise for the Aspect-Emperor.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 01:08:53 am
Hello Kosoter!!!

I have to disagree with you that the Zeumi prince is meant to be a prophet--he is exposed to too much danger to really be expected to fulfill that function.  That is not to say that he won't do what you say he will (I am nearly persuaded by your warhammer interpretation and others here speaking the same idea) BUT I don't think that is Kellhus' purpose for him.  That Proyas is being groomed to be the next Shriah is believable precisely because Kellhus is overseeing Proyas' security.  The Zeumi prince is waaay too exposed to sranc for my part.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Somnambulist on March 09, 2014, 06:34:38 am
Mentioning Proyas, I've harbored a suspicion he may be a Judas figure in the story to come. Whether that still translates into becoming the next Shriah or not is debatable.  I think Kel is conditioning him to play another role.  He's letting P. in on too much 'truth' and doubt about Kel's supposed divinity.  Just a suspicion.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 08:57:22 am
Proyas as Judas--I never thought of that.  Could be awesome, but I can't see Proyas selling out on Kellhus unless someone tricks him into thinking he's betraying Kellhus to help Kellhus (or on Kellhus' orders).

BTW, Three Versions of Judas by Borges is short and awesome.  Found a copy here:
http://southerncrossreview.org/49/borges-judas-eng.htm
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 09:02:15 am
When I first read the series, I thought for the longest time that the No-God was simply a bomb and the Consult were just morons that worshipped it as a god like those nutters in one of the Planet of the Apes movies. I thought the whole thing about creating the NG and whatnot and descriptions of his carapace were just creative ways of saying they were researching some kind of bomb and the womb-plague that made everyone infertile was simply some byproduct of it like radiation. Funnily enough, I thought the stuff at the Battleplain was the result of Seswatha accidentally detonating the No-God and releasing magical fallout everywhere. It seems really funny now but that was my first impression all those years ago :P

This never occurred to me--No-God as Nuke.  The Consult plan (if they had one) was to put it in the right spot at the right time, but Seswatha foiled it?  I like this idea!
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: locke on March 09, 2014, 06:21:26 pm
not sure where to put this, but I think Onkis is the one who founded the Dunyain.  She is literally the goddess of what comes before, and the dunyain worship the shit out of her (even if they don't know it).
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 07:50:53 pm
That's awesome!  Fits with in with Inrau vs Consult?  Where can I find this bit about Onkis?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: locke on March 10, 2014, 05:40:37 am
Quote
The idol was worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair. Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her: she was this stirring, the dark place where the flurries of his thought arose. She came before him.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 122). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Also of interest:

Quote
braziers. The columns soared up to support the clerestory, the raised central section of the roof, too high for the light to reach. To either side of the clerestory aisle were two more rows of lesser columns, flanking the small godhouses of various Cultic deities. Everything seemed to be reaching, reaching. He placed an absent hand on the limestone. Cool. Impassive. No sign of the great load borne. Such was the strength of inanimate things. Give me this strength, Goddess. Make me as a pillar.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 121). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

With a single outstretched hand, Paro Inrau followed a pillar to the earth.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 128). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on March 10, 2014, 05:58:31 am
When I first read the series, I thought for the longest time that the No-God was simply a bomb and the Consult were just morons that worshipped it as a god like those nutters in one of the Planet of the Apes movies. I thought the whole thing about creating the NG and whatnot and descriptions of his carapace were just creative ways of saying they were researching some kind of bomb and the womb-plague that made everyone infertile was simply some byproduct of it like radiation. Funnily enough, I thought the stuff at the Battleplain was the result of Seswatha accidentally detonating the No-God and releasing magical fallout everywhere. It seems really funny now but that was my first impression all those years ago :P

This never occurred to me--No-God as Nuke.  The Consult plan (if they had one) was to put it in the right spot at the right time, but Seswatha foiled it?  I like this idea!

I think this is pretty close actually.  The war didn't end when the no-god walked, after all.  Still had to reduce the population to 144k, which I estimate was just about to happen at Mengeda.  There's no other reason for the No-god to take the field really.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 10, 2014, 11:59:28 am
Near 144k sounds so small for the population of a continent!  I thought the NG took the field because he was running out of sranc and the conquest of the 3seas could not be achieved without Mog directly terrorizing the opposition.  After 11 years and no heron spear, Mog or whoever is controlling it could be vulnerable to hubris.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on March 11, 2014, 12:50:05 am
The consult was in open warfare with the Kiniuri for 23 years before they summoned Mog.  The North was then crushed over the next 12 years until they mankind was driven to the very edge of the inhabited continent.  And remember, no children were born during the time the no-god was on the material plane.  The sranc had no such problems, indeed they seem fecund and likely reproduced even faster when driven by Mog's will.

I think it not far-fetched to suppose that the majority of males remaining able to walk and hold a spear in Earwa were in Anaxophus V's army.  There were no children below the age of 13 left at this point.

The glossary does state that attrition forced Mog to the field, but I think it was the attrition of men, not sranc, and that the transformation of the battleplain to a topos was the prelude to the culmination of the consult's final solution rather than the result of Mog's destruction.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on March 11, 2014, 02:07:21 pm
Kosotor I also thought the NG was some kind of bomb, or at least his death seemed an awful lot like a detonated nuke.

Quote
A prophet of himself.

Favorite.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 11, 2014, 03:38:16 pm
The consult was in open warfare with the Kiniuri for 23 years before they summoned Mog.  The North was then crushed over the next 12 years until they mankind was driven to the very edge of the inhabited continent.  And remember, no children were born during the time the no-god was on the material plane.  The sranc had no such problems, indeed they seem fecund and likely reproduced even faster when driven by Mog's will.

I think it not far-fetched to suppose that the majority of males remaining able to walk and hold a spear in Earwa were in Anaxophus V's army.  There were no children below the age of 13 left at this point.

The glossary does state that attrition forced Mog to the field, but I think it was the attrition of men, not sranc, and that the transformation of the battleplain to a topos was the prelude to the culmination of the consult's final solution rather than the result of Mog's destruction.

You worked it out more than I had.  I can go along with this if we are talking about the population of Earwe being what the Consult would consider near their goal.  That number could be a lot higher than 144k, but so low that the Consult think the rest of the pop will quickly wither.

EDIT: I guess I have always assumed that the 144k thing was more of decoy than anything else.  I think this bit from an interview got me thinking that way:

Q: In THE WHITE-LUCK WARRIOR we get some hints about the stakes that are being played for, the notion that the Consult want to reduce the population of Earwa to a specific decimal number which has Biblical significance. Was your intention here to draw a direct parallel between the story of Kellhus and the Great Ordeal and that Biblical source, or was it merely an easter egg and the correlation itself is not significant?

A: Is an ‘easter egg’ the same thing as a herring? If so, there’s a whole whap of them in the books.

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/06/new-r-scott-bakker-interview-part-1.html
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: locke on March 11, 2014, 09:34:22 pm
Quote
Q: In THE WHITE-LUCK WARRIOR we get some hints about the stakes that are being played for, the notion that the Consult want to reduce the population of Earwa to a specific decimal number which has Biblical significance. Was your intention here to draw a direct parallel between the story of Kellhus and the Great Ordeal and that Biblical source, or was it merely an easter egg and the correlation itself is not significant?

Questions like these are so easy to dodge, the construction gives the answerer any of a bajillion outs to avoid answering it, as Bakker did.  But we always get Questions with these kind of constructions because it flatters the question writer, who wants to show off his or her personal theories and also is hoping for validation if right and all the warm fuzzies and bragging rights that come along with the validation.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wic on March 11, 2014, 11:43:56 pm
Maybe it's a red herring for the inchoroi, who simply have a religious belief that 144k is the number to hit.  :o
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2014, 02:23:35 pm
Quote
Q: In THE WHITE-LUCK WARRIOR we get some hints about the stakes that are being played for, the notion that the Consult want to reduce the population of Earwa to a specific decimal number which has Biblical significance. Was your intention here to draw a direct parallel between the story of Kellhus and the Great Ordeal and that Biblical source, or was it merely an easter egg and the correlation itself is not significant?

Questions like these are so easy to dodge, the construction gives the answerer any of a bajillion outs to avoid answering it, as Bakker did.  But we always get Questions with these kind of constructions because it flatters the question writer, who wants to show off his or her personal theories and also is hoping for validation if right and all the warm fuzzies and bragging rights that come along with the validation.

I'd love that kind of validation myself :) But Bakker has spent so long concealing the conclusion I just don't believe he would be 'tricked' into giving out information.... Though he did notably slip the name of Mek, but I don't think that's particularly important, a minor infraction at best.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 12, 2014, 03:38:20 pm
Maybe it's a red herring for the inchoroi, who simply have a religious belief that 144k is the number to hit.  :o

I like this idea.  Perhaps TUC will reveal some kind of scripture that the inchoroi hold sacred.  Their own Tusk in the golden room.  Mounted just above the inverse fire.  Stockings at Christmas.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 12, 2014, 04:13:46 pm
My personal nerdanel for the end of the series is that Kellhus is not trying to become the NG at all despite what so many people seem to think but the opposite. I've figured souls work kind of like souls do in the Warhammer universe (if you pledge your soul to X god, it becomes part of X god, making it stronger) and that Kellhus is trying to do what the Emperor did and convince loads of people to worship him as a god and dedicate their souls to him. By feeding on those souls, he can gain power in the outside and become a god himself and then enact TTT through the hearts and minds of all people. Everyone will worship him as a god when he dies (probably at the end of the series), with the Zeumi prince going home to spread the good word of the Aspect Emperor's heroic sacrifice for all humanity. Everyone worships him, he gets to not only not be damned but to feast on everyone's soul and blot out all the other gods so only he remains. By pledging their souls to him, sorcerers escape eternal damnation...meaning what he said is kind of true and he is a prophet. A prophet of himself.

I like this, but I'm wondering if old Moe/dunyain are counting on Kellhus to pursue this path and are intending to use him as a kind of divine stepping stone.  They needed someone with Dunyain talent but also with a something they couldn't tolerate, madness/desire/whatever.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 15, 2014, 01:34:27 am
New crazy: Serwa will give birth to a nonman who will be raised by Meppa as an eyeless Cishaurim.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 15, 2014, 05:37:39 pm
The ordeal will founder at Dagliash.  Some type of elaborate double cross with the nonmen who are allied with the consult. Kellhus has anticipated it and fakes his death and heads to Golgotteroth, possibly with the remnants of the Mandate and some of the Swayali (the destruction of the Mandate's army was a deliberate sacrifice to convince the Consult they are spent).  The Ordeal will be besieged at Dagliash, subsisting on Sranc meat and fanatacism.  Lead by Proyas (who knows Kellhus isn't dead) they will hold out, keeping the consult busy.  Kayutas will be key to stopping the skin spies from infiltrating.

Skin spies can't hide in an Anasurimbor's presence, but I'm hoping for at least one scene where a skin spy causes a major disruption by impersonating an Anasurimbor!
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on March 19, 2014, 02:48:31 pm
The ordeal will founder at Dagliash.  Some type of elaborate double cross with the nonmen who are allied with the consult. Kellhus has anticipated it and fakes his death and heads to Golgotteroth, possibly with the remnants of the Mandate and some of the Swayali (the destruction of the Mandate's army was a deliberate sacrifice to convince the Consult they are spent).  The Ordeal will be besieged at Dagliash, subsisting on Sranc meat and fanatacism.  Lead by Proyas (who knows Kellhus isn't dead) they will hold out, keeping the consult busy.  Kayutas will be key to stopping the skin spies from infiltrating.

Skin spies can't hide in an Anasurimbor's presence, but I'm hoping for at least one scene where a skin spy causes a major disruption by impersonating an Anasurimbor!

That is a brilliant idea. With The Ordeal as large as it is, there may be brief opportunities for that. Maybe that is why they where Nimil, something rare enough that it adds more difficult in replacing one of the Anasurimbor (even for just a brief time) without notice.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Somnambulist on March 19, 2014, 03:31:56 pm
That is a brilliant idea. With The Ordeal as large as it is, there may be brief opportunities for that. Maybe that is why they where Nimil, something rare enough that it adds more difficult in replacing one of the Anasurimbor (even for just a brief time) without notice.

I think the Consult, with their large contingent of nonmen allies, would have no problem getting ahold of more nimil than Kel has access to...  ;)  But I dig the idea, nonetheless.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 04:24:34 pm
Like the advent of undetectable face-dancers in Dune, TUC sees the revelation of super skin spies!  Maybe old Moe knowing both how to work skin spies and the limits of Dunyain ability could swing it.  Maybe Kellhus + Teckne.  Maybe Dunyain turned years ago.  It would be just like them to have a layered skin spy system--some to be seen to convince the Anarsurimbors that they can still detect the abominations.

TWIST: TUC ends with every human on the planet being replaced with a skin spy hard wired to keep the farce of history going.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:33:35 am
(click to show/hide)

I figure Dunyain + Tekne is an inevitability.

Lmao!

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 20, 2014, 04:40:33 pm
This stuff about Bakker worried that TUC will be too much of an info-bomb for the reader, I hope that doesn't mean he's regretting doing too little foreshadowing so far.  Seems unlikely but idk.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:05:33 pm
I don't think it means that. I think that what he combines in his head with the foreshadowing and what we expect to see are two different things. Plus... we get Ishterebinth, the Consult, Nau-Cayuti inside the Ark, etc... how can it not fill in gaps in our knowledge?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 22, 2014, 08:16:40 pm
I'm hoping for a big revelation about Aurax.  I bet the whole point of having two surviving Inchoroi is to have one in the field, effectively hiding the other until the big reveal.  Aurang is killed at Dagliash and Kellhus/whoever meets Aurang at the end.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 25, 2014, 12:12:47 pm
Got to be a moment where Akka kneels/does not kneel before Kellhus.  Final scene has Kellhus kneeling before Akka?  Both kneeling before someone else?  Both standing over a kneeler?

EDIT: With all the parallels between Akka/Kellhus and Seswatha/Nau-Cayuti, I wonder if we'll get a revelation about Seswatha's 'Esmi'?  Seswatha might leave that part out of the standard mandate dream curriculum. 
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2014, 03:46:33 pm
I am excited about the kneeling scene as well. Seswatha kneeled over Celmomas' dying body ;)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Somnambulist on March 27, 2014, 04:03:34 pm
I am excited about the kneeling scene as well. Seswatha kneeled over Celmomas' dying bod ;)

Akka may very well kneel before Kel before all is said and done, but probably not under the circumstances we might think.  As for the Seswatha/Celmomas scene, I like to think it will rather be between Akka/Proyas.  I somehow don't see Kel having some death-bed revelation about what a dick he's been his whole life.  It would mean more, and have a larger emotional impact, between A and P.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on March 27, 2014, 09:41:16 pm
I figure Achamian will kneel as he was supposed to in TTT when he yet meets Kellhus again.

What a twest.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on March 27, 2014, 10:57:26 pm
If power in the Outside does hinge on the number of a believers, Kellhus may need the No-God to return to vindicate his claims.  Then the Great Ordeal serves as sacrifice for Kellhus' ascension/death plus they are evangelists to return to the 3 seas and Zeum to encourage belief in the right direction.

EDIT: @ Wilshire - oooohhhh that's cool, the prophecy is true as Akka kneels at the feet of the dying warrior prophet! :)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on March 28, 2014, 05:15:09 pm
If power in the Outside does hinge on the number of a believers, Kellhus may need the No-God to return to vindicate his claims.  Then the Great Ordeal serves as sacrifice for Kellhus' ascension/death plus they are evangelists to return to the 3 seas and Zeum to encourage belief in the right direction.

EDIT: @ Wilshire - oooohhhh that's cool, the prophecy is true as Akka kneels at the feet of the dying warrior prophet! :)

Thanks, but I'll admit I like Som's idea better. Though I'm pretty sure Kellhus specifically says that Akka will kneel before himself.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 15, 2014, 04:48:18 pm
New prediction: Seswatha is warring to create a world in which no one can do sorcery unless they are bound to Seswatha.  TUC ends with the death of Kellhus/Consult/Anagogics.  Seswatha avoids damnation by living forever in the ongoing schools of Mandate/Swayali and becomes king of the world through them.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 16, 2014, 11:41:58 am
With his dying breath, Aurang, last surviving member of the Consult, uses the lost Heron Spear to strike down Kellhus who has usurped their No-God resurrection project.  :P

Wouldn't it be weird if the one thing Kellhus hasn't accounted for is the Consult's ability to remake/recharge the old laser cannons?  You know that's got to be something they've worked on.  But, knowing Kellhus, he probably has a special anti-laser chorae or can wing it with the meta-gnosis, meta-daimos, meta-aporos, meta-something.

Meta-meta-gnosis with 3 inutterals (and via possession) 6 utterals.  Or like 144k.

Gonna be neat to see Shae do 10 utterals with at least 10 inutterals.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 19, 2014, 12:42:32 am
Some part of TUC has to be staged in the air between the horns.  Kellhus vs lots of dragons?  Kellhus surrounded by every old name?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on April 20, 2014, 02:28:06 pm
Oh buddy! Bakker owes us Wracu vs. Kellhus at this point :P. I want to read that.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 20, 2014, 05:37:35 pm
ALSO!  Someone needs to be impaled on a horn, or both.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on April 21, 2014, 01:37:19 pm
How about a Wracu ;)?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on April 22, 2014, 01:36:20 am
Cleric killed 5 Wracu, Kellhus needs to top that.

Also, I wanna know how Nau'Cayuti took down a Wracu.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on April 23, 2014, 12:23:12 pm
I want to know how any non-sorcerer takes down a Wracu...

Van Zan in Reign of Fire anyone?

Aside, I really dislike how this whole McConaissance implied that he never did anything good before now...
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 23, 2014, 07:56:52 pm
Cleric killed 5 Wracu, Kellhus needs to top that.

Also, I wanna know how Nau'Cayuti took down a Wracu.

Any ideas on if the Consult have the ability to produce more dragons?  I had kind of assumed that they were like the nonmen, fixed number ever dwindling, but I don't know.

Kellhus secret weapon against dragons: he has taught the anagogics a few new tricks like how to create more than just dragon heads...

I bet NC took down the dragon like Legolas did to that Oliphant in Return of the King movie.

@ Madness - I liked Reign of Fire too.  Don't know why it isn't more liked.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Srancy on April 23, 2014, 10:54:36 pm
Well, if they rediscovered how to construct more Wracu, I do see how they lose.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 24, 2014, 12:08:39 pm
Well, if they rediscovered how to construct more Wracu, I do see how they lose.

How the Great Ordeal loses?  Or is it like the dragons rebel against the Consult?  Wutteat + corruptions in the Tekne make dragons unmanageable and disconnected from the No-God's will/Consult's purpose?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on April 24, 2014, 12:13:25 pm
@ Madness - I liked Reign of Fire too.  Don't know why it isn't more liked.

People are fucked.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 29, 2014, 10:50:50 pm
Prediction, Akka and Mimara find Seswatha himself in the bowels of Ishual.  Through sorcerous means, he has lived for 2000 years without his heart in the part of Ishual where no light is allowed.  There he directs the Dunyain breeding program without the Dunyain's knowledge.  For example, every Spring, the Dunyain dump the new crop of candidates in the maze, one month later a few survivors straggle out.

OR! Seswatha is in suspended animation.  Through a series of hijinks, Akka gets the heart and crams it in the old sorcerer's chest.  Seswatha reawakens just as Mog is reborn!!!

EDIT: Maybe we'll see Seswatha return like the shade of Gin'yursis???  Possess Akka!
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:14:54 am
I want to know how any non-sorcerer takes down a Wracu...

Van Zan in Reign of Fire anyone?

Aside, I really dislike how this whole McConaissance implied that he never did anything good before now...

lmao

btw, reign of fire, although it was entertaning, was simply just a bad movie. Accept it :D
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on May 05, 2014, 01:18:43 pm
Lol - we must have different standards. Those actors all did amazing in Reign of Fire :P. Next you're going to tell me you don't like Equilibrium...
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on May 05, 2014, 06:13:56 pm
I liked RoF and Equilibrium. The latter was a higher quality movie, imo, but I don't know if I'd say either was really great. Depends on what concepts are being judged though.

Also, way off topic ;)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 05, 2014, 10:30:13 pm
Reign of Fire went real bad in the second act.  Jumped the shark badly for me with the standard bug hunt movie conclusion (i.e. destroy the single male dragon - wtf... how convenient and utterly stupid).
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on May 08, 2014, 07:01:32 pm
(i.e. destroy the single male dragon - wtf... how convenient and utterly stupid).

Agreed but I still think the actors involved make a great attempt at a poor script. It's like Perlman. You either use him or you don't but I'm sure he has below average shitty performances.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on May 08, 2014, 09:54:09 pm
Akka or Kellhus (as the something of Esmenet the second) repeat Angeshrael's action and kneel their face into the Inverse Fire.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 10, 2014, 05:11:58 am
Lol Thank you for bringing back memories of Reign of Fire, Madness.  That gloriously pulp film.  What's the name of that Nilnameshi Prince?  The Scion of a Thousand Songs or some such, the Warrior-Poet. If he didn't die at Irsulor,  I can imagine him going out like Van Zan against a Wracu.  Such a glorious death would be worthy of an epic ballad.  "Do it for the ballad." has presumably been the Medieval equivalent of "Do it for the vine."
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on May 11, 2014, 05:40:53 pm
Such a glorious death would be worthy of an epic ballad.  "Do it for the ballad." has presumably been the Medieval equivalent of "Do it for the vine."

Lol.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on July 03, 2014, 04:38:11 am
Kellhus will uncover something cool at the lowest point of the buried Ark.  It'll be the place where Aurang and Aurax his during the Nonman cleansing and it will have some of Sil's personal effects.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Somnambulist on July 10, 2014, 06:25:50 pm
This could fit in other threads, but maybe best here.  So, we have (so far) 'seen' Shaeonanra/Shauriatas twice:  as Shae in TFS, and as Shaur in Akka's dream from TUC chapter 1 excerpt.  He's obviously still human in TFS (before the First Apocalypse, year 1119), but has become something else by the time of the 'dream.'  Assuming the unnamed captive is Nau-Cayuti that Akka dreams about, that would be around the time of the Second Apocalypse (2123-2155, or so).  So, we're looking at about a thousand years between the two sightings, and his subsequent (d)evolution.  Fast-forward two thousand years to the present, and it makes me wonder what form Shauriatas will take when he is revealed again (assumedly in TUC).  I can't imagine him like he was in the dream a couple of millenniums earlier.  He must have figured out a new form, right?  An uber-synthese?  Mega-skinspy?  Something?  Maybe?  Just seems like he would have (d)evolved again somehow.  Thoughts?  Obviously total speculation.  I imagine this could be a big reveal in TUC.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on July 10, 2014, 06:45:24 pm
His form does seem precarious in the dream with Nau-Cayuti.  I wonder if he can pull off a Bashrag kind of thing: a body of fused parts, possibly with lots of legs added, Shae has become the Shelob of Golgotterath.

If he can fuse, why not add dragon bits?

That shield seems pretty convenient tho, nice hoverboard there.  Maybe the final boss fight features Kellhus vs Shae on whirling shield.

btw, just posted the Captian, very nice! :)
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 03:54:39 am
Having multiple vessels to flit between seemed to be vital in the metaphysics of how Shaeonanra avoided damnation. If he has a new vessel, he's probably still beset by this limitation. So rather than a single synthese vessel, it would be several, and he could only inhabit them in sequence. Which would likely make things awkward for combat.

Besides, Shaeonanra's real power is in his intellect. He's not the strongest sorcerer around, but the craftiest, the most creative, the least conventional. I'm sure he can do his best work in Golgotterath, not in the field.

That said, I'm sure that with their newfound mastery of the Tekne, the Consult has prepared some terrible surprises for the Ordeal. Plagues, weapon races, you name it. Perhaps we'll see some of them as soon as Dagliash.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2014, 01:04:23 am
Take some skin samples from Kellhus, isolate DNA, create army of genetically enhanced super Dunyain bound to the Consult. 20 years is plenty for a clone army.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 05:45:14 pm
at dagliash, kellhus sets up a constantly burning barrier about the fortess and then has the soldiers march around nake from the top of the wall, so the sranc come and come, burn and burn
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 06:21:53 pm
maybe we'll get the name of the third series at the end of tuc.  if bakker continues to name the series after kellhus maybe we'll get one of these...

Prince of Nothing
Aspect Emperor

...

Lord of the Consult
Slave of the Consult
Son of Mog
King of Golgotterath
God of Gods
God-Emperor of Dun...Earwa
The Blind God
The Burnt Prophet
The Sacrificial Lamb
The Last Dunyain
King of the Dying World
Grand Archduke of the Void
Tyrant-Savior
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Bolivar on September 30, 2014, 02:13:31 am
Since The Aspect Emperor was a title mentioned in the preceding books, my prediction is...

The Solitary God
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on September 30, 2014, 03:54:15 am
Since The Aspect Emperor was a title mentioned in the preceding books, my prediction is...

The Solitary God

GOLD
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on July 30, 2015, 06:57:33 pm
the end of TTT so nicely fits with the beginning of TDTCB, it makes me wonder if Bakker is going to end TUC in a way that somehow matches the beginning of TJE -- thoughts?

on the subject of abbreviations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWBYz0JP1vY&t=1m9s
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Garet Jax on August 19, 2015, 03:36:51 pm
Another "Ark" crashes and creates the 6th "map circle"...  What comes out?  Non-erratic and immortal Nonmen.  Just in time to save what is left of TGO.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on August 27, 2015, 10:42:09 pm
Another "Ark" crashes and creates the 6th "map circle"...  What comes out?  Non-erratic and immortal Nonmen.  Just in time to save what is left of TGO.

for some reason this made me think that the straight line of mountains on the right side of the map is border of an enormous map circle--TUC include zoomed-out map--Earwa is the only part of the planet that isn't part of this massive crater???  a slighly larger Ark rest at the bottom along with that thing from Return of the Jedi that is like a toothy-sand-butthole
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on August 31, 2015, 06:12:19 pm
Mmm, yes. Any straight line may be the curve of a vast circle.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on September 22, 2015, 10:01:02 pm
new end to TUC: Kellhus wipes out the Consult heirarchy, seizes control of the Derived via the Mog Apparatus and boards the Ark with the Derived, the Great Ordeal, and the Dunyain.  the Ark is repaired and launches towards the Nail of Heaven which is revealed as the Inchoroi homeworld.  Kellhus pulls an Ender Wiggin move: permanently eliminate the threat at it's source

while i'm thinking about it--Inchoroi motivation still baffles me.  i can't understand why they would incur unnecessary risks while their stated goal is to avoid damnation (like antagonizing nonmen).  i'm sorry i sound like a broken record--getting to the new part.  if the Inchoroi can be 'recalled' from hell, then their risks make more sense.  however, at some point they must have looked around and thought "hey there's not many of us left to complete the plan."  but that wouldn't have been a problem if they were counting on a much larger contingent of Inchoroi finishing the work whatever.

so Aurang and Aurax anticipating reinforcements?  or will Aurax laugh as he dies telling Kellhus that sooner or later, one of these millenia, more of the Race of Lovers will arrive and this time they won't crash (the Inchoroi already relayed that info back to the Swarm)

maybe that's what the No-God is?  an antenna?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: themerchant on September 23, 2015, 03:39:18 pm
I've always asked how far does that "No-God feeling" permeate. Everyone can feel him, does that include all living things in the universe. I thought if it was felt universally then other folk may turn up.

In scale the Non-man-Inchoroi wars seem to be a much larger "spectacle" laser weapons vs Sorcery a gender eliminated. A war lasting hundreds of years.

Until the No-God is alive and controlling the weapon races, it's just not as big an event. 2 Inchies and the consult versus Kellhus. This time the option of zerging is open with the No-god, but i think the No-God threat is more nuanced than he can get tens of millions of sranc to run in the same direction.

So yeah i've always thought there is a possibility other Inchies might turn up, the No-God being some sort of homing beacon.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on September 25, 2015, 08:22:48 pm
I've always asked how far does that "No-God feeling" permeate. Everyone can feel him, does that include all living things in the universe. I thought if it was felt universally then other folk may turn up.

In scale the Non-man-Inchoroi wars seem to be a much larger "spectacle" laser weapons vs Sorcery a gender eliminated. A war lasting hundreds of years.

Until the No-God is alive and controlling the weapon races, it's just not as big an event. 2 Inchies and the consult versus Kellhus. This time the option of zerging is open with the No-god, but i think the No-God threat is more nuanced than he can get tens of millions of sranc to run in the same direction.

So yeah i've always thought there is a possibility other Inchies might turn up, the No-God being some sort of homing beacon.

that is awesome! did not think of that!  it's like the quantum messaging thing?  what Mog's soul feels, all souls feel?  all souls are isomorphic with Mog's?  Mog declares the blindness that all souls feel but do not understand?  it knows it is blind because it is the only one stripped of it's illusions?  it is Socrates?

really tho, the dreams we get from Akka are just snippets, if the reader could just hear what else Mog has to say, the meaning would be obvious "WHAT DO YOU SEE?  I CANNOT SEE.  I DON'T KNOW WHERE I LEFT MY GLASSES."

it seems a pretty repetitive thing to harp on.  maybe TUC will bring us a full fledged Mog sermon
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on October 12, 2015, 02:40:13 pm
I'd guess the Mog  feeling could potentially include all ensouled creatures.

MG I kind of like those thoughts. It does seem a bit odd that a rthey would continue along there quest and waste so many lives [their own race]. 

The return of the inchoroi would make a good fan fix at least.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on October 12, 2015, 05:46:18 pm
I'd guess the Mog  feeling could potentially include all ensouled creatures.

MG I kind of like those thoughts. It does seem a bit odd that a rthey would continue along there quest and waste so many lives [their own race]. 

The return of the inchoroi would make a good fan fix at least.

Return of the Lovers!!!

Mog isn't just controlling the Derived, he's incubating things in them.  Given more than 11 years and Mog will hatch all of the Inchoroi from the bodies of Sranc and Bashrag giving the lovers the new clean souls that were stolen from Earwa's stillborn babies
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: EkyannusIII on December 25, 2015, 02:12:23 am
new end to TUC: Kellhus wipes out the Consult heirarchy, seizes control of the Derived via the Mog Apparatus and boards the Ark with the Derived, the Great Ordeal, and the Dunyain.  the Ark is repaired and launches towards the Nail of Heaven which is revealed as the Inchoroi homeworld.  Kellhus pulls an Ender Wiggin move: permanently eliminate the threat at it's source

while i'm thinking about it--Inchoroi motivation still baffles me.  i can't understand why they would incur unnecessary risks while their stated goal is to avoid damnation (like antagonizing nonmen).

That's always been my take as well, their rational course of action is to just stay near Golgotterath behind half a continent of sranc Bashrags and Wracu and amuse themselves with what they have there.  They are immortal except when killed by violence and everyone else except the Mandate thought they were dead.  No need to rock that boat.

Quote
so Aurang and Aurax anticipating reinforcements?

My pet theory has always been that they were running from others of their own kind, or maybe a second alien species, who are uncorrupted - the xenos equivalents of Proyas, in other words.  Probably can't work, but it still sounds fun.

Better point - since the Inchoroi are damned because of their "lifestyle choices", so to speak, and those seem linked to their mastery of the Tekne and subsequent embrace of hedonism - that would imply that prior generations of their species are not damned out of hand since those conditions came into being at a certain point in their racial history and would not condition the salvation of earlier members of the species.  Could Kellhus have talked to redeemed Inchoroi from ~ 100 years or so before their total collapse into perversion while he was jaunting about the Outside? Seems like a smart move to attempt at least.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Simas Polchias on December 25, 2015, 12:52:37 pm
That's always been my take as well, their rational course of action is to just stay near Golgotterath behind half a continent of sranc Bashrags and Wracu and amuse themselves with what they have there. 
Even if they have some anti-topoi technology (and they should, for their common habits are actually nothing short of topoi-production line), there is always a chance of malfunction & meeting some Outside in your WC. Weapon races are seems kinda useless against horde of ciphrang swarming out of some freaking-big portal to feast on the immortal immoral sorcerers (both halaroi, cunuroi & inchoroi).

Also, I reckon, immortal persons should somehow think on the slighter changed basis than mortal. They are so long-lived that even slightest possibilities (like, crazy priest-king who orders his crazy sorcerers to blow out the planet crust on the other side of the planet, eliminating it whole) are real concerns for them. They are diluted duniayin, they have lots of causes to expand their control.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Blackstone on February 26, 2016, 05:04:05 pm
I think, for sure, the GO has to fail. If it succeeded in destroying the Consult and preventing the resurrection of the No-God, a final un-named duology of books wouldn't be necessary. So I suspect the GO will be destroyed. It will be on Sorweel, Akka, and Mimara to raise a second ordeal (history repeats itself yet again), and with most of the Three Seas decimated, it will be on Zeum to shoulder the majority of the burden. And perhaps we will see a return by the fifth tribe of men that stayed on the other side of the gates back in year 0.

If the GO is doomed to fail, the question is how. I didn't even consider it on the first read, but after a few rereads, I think the WLW will succeed in killing Kellhus. I don't see how he couldn't. The book says many times that the WLW sees himself killing Kellhus. He dispatched Maithanet with ease, and although Maithanet is only half Dunyain, I think that's an indicator that the WLW will ultimately be successful. After watching their sweet God of Gods get slain, the GO will inevitably fall apart. It's their belief in Kellhus that holds them together.

Also, I wonder if something won't happen with the Nail of Heaven. We know it isn't a star. Is it perhaps a mothership the Inchoroi left in orbit (a la Independence Day)?
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: themerchant on February 26, 2016, 05:34:46 pm
The books says he kills the aspect emperor not kellhus, which might be splitting hairs. Also the aspect emperor has to block a sword blow with his own sword, when the skin spy leaped at him in TJE he immobilized it with sorcery.

Also Maithanet was killed while being identified as using cheap dye which might indicate something, or it might be he can't get good dye as the Fanim have been attacking while Esmi has been hiding out in a tent.

Personally i believe he was saying you must tell my brother..S. as he died. Why bring them up their existence previously? How could esmi tell Kellhus anything anyway? So why would it just be brother?

Cheap dye,cryptic message, reveal of having had brothers, also pauses noted in text when he is replying around the subject. I don't know anything about literary analysis but i have alarm bells ringing :D
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: H on February 26, 2016, 05:43:32 pm
The Nail of Heaven has always kind of bothered me, in that I should probably have figured out what it is already, but still haven't.  I don't think it's a ship, but the fact that it doesn't move seems to imply that it is in geosynchronous orbit, which kind of precludes anything natural.

On the Great Ordeal, I think you are right, it will fail, but not in the sense of preventing the Second Apocalypse.  The SA is a semantic one, so in a way they succeed in that the world isn't ravaged like it was in the FA, but fail to stop the more grand implication.

By the way, I hear that you are a "new" old member, so welcome back Blackstone.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: themerchant on February 26, 2016, 06:00:41 pm
It was a new star according to the non-men. It silvers clouds , it doesn't change position in the sky. Synchronous orbit like Charon and Pluto. It might be big enough to be in "tidal lock" if it's not smaller using propulsion to stay in the orbit. I've considered the "mother-ship" myself, I would like that i feel we need more "baddies" to beat the first apocalypse out in scale.

I have a half-idea that Earwa and Eamna are separated by more than just mountains, the gates were dimensional in some way. Earwa is a "seperate" dimension the NoH is a portal of some sorts.

The way the gods see reminds me of my understanding of how inside a black hole would "look", since time is slowed down you would see (if that were possible) all the past events frozen and available but wouldn't really be able to discern what happened when. Which sort of sounds like how the gods apprehend the whole but are still dodgy on details.

I'm going to smoke and see if anything is revealed to me :D

Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Blackstone on February 26, 2016, 06:32:38 pm
The books says he kills the aspect emperor not kellhus, which might be splitting hairs. Also the aspect emperor has to block a sword blow with his own sword, when the skin spy leaped at him in TJE he immobilized it with sorcery.

Also Maithanet was killed while being identified as using cheap dye which might indicate something, or it might be he can't get good dye as the Fanim have been attacking while Esmi has been hiding out in a tent.

Personally i believe he was saying you must tell my brother..S. as he died. Why bring them up their existence previously? How could esmi tell Kellhus anything anyway? So why would it just be brother?

Cheap dye,cryptic message, reveal of having had brothers, also pauses noted in text when he is replying around the subject. I don't know anything about literary analysis but i have alarm bells ringing :D

I think that's splitting hairs. The WLW wouldn't think of Kellhus in terms of his name, he would think of him as the AE. Psatma never thinks of the AE as "Kellhus" for example. My opinion.

I didn't catch the cheap dye. That might mean something. It was my assumption that Maithanet is telling Esmi to warn Kellhus about Kelmomas.


Thanks HH! It's good to be back.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Madness on February 26, 2016, 06:40:31 pm
Yes, Blackstone, I'm glad you found your way home :). Welcome (back) to the Second Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Wilshire on February 29, 2016, 04:55:40 pm
If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.

Akka coming back a la Seswatha to warn Zeum to shoulder the burden of the SA/Mog's return, seems most plausible.

In TWP Kellhus mention's that the only way to defeat death is with sons, and that only Dunyain sons will be capable to complete the tasks he sees before him. Kellhus plans to die, and has planned to die since before the circumfixtion, but he comes before his children and his plans will live beyond him. WLW killing him or no, the thousandfold thought marches onward.


Welcome back to the SA.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Blackstone on March 01, 2016, 10:41:09 pm
If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.



Why not? The WLW can travel to Golgotterath. It would be the easiest journey ever considering how he just "lucks" in to everything. Seriously. I don't expect him to hang around the Three Seas until Kellhus gets back.
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 05:29:22 am
If in fact WLW does kill Kellhus, I doub tit will be before Kellhus accomplishes whatever it is he wants to accomplish. There is no way for WLW and AE to be in the same space until after the Ordeal is defeated/succeeds, and Kellhus returns to give word to his Empire.



Why not? The WLW can travel to Golgotterath. It would be the easiest journey ever considering how he just "lucks" in to everything. Seriously. I don't expect him to hang around the Three Seas until Kellhus gets back.

The WLW is going to kill Kellhus at Golggotterath (Golgotha) and Kellhus (Jesus) has already prepared for it with his meta-gnosis-daimos.  That fucker is going to bounce right out of hell and right back into his body and chop of WLWs heed.  Maybe.

I know I know!  Kellhus will be cut down.  On the third day he will rise again.  Or at least his body will.  Something else might be looking out through those eyes, like Ajokli or dear old dad...

While Kellhus is 'in the tomb' the end of TUC will build to it's desperate climax as Kayutas tries to hold TGO together even though there is no hope as it is surrounded and attacked around the clock.  Kellhus returns just in time FUCK UP EVERYBODY'S SHIT
Title: Re: Speculation on the end of the Unholy Consult
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 02:42:09 pm
I recently saw on another thread that Nerdanel and Madness both postulated that at the end of the UC, Kellhus would travel back in time to the First Apocalypse. Which got me thinking: Some have speculated that Kellhus will become the No-God, but what if Kellhus is the original No-God? He gets pulled back through time and imprisoned in the carapace. He can't see (WHAT DO YOU SEE), but he can feel the weapons races, which he blindly and unknowingly wields against men. This would explain why Kellhus keeps have visions of the No-God in TTT.
Just a thought :)