The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Mondoënghus on July 25, 2017, 07:51:09 pm

Title: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Mondoënghus on July 25, 2017, 07:51:09 pm
Hello! This is my first post! Please excuse me if this has already been brought up somewhere and I just haven't seen it.

Like a lot of you, even though I finished TUC more than a week ago, the book clearly isn't finished with me yet. I keep rereading bits trying to understand just what the fuck happened, checking out theories and impressions on this forum, and combing through the updated glossary to find anything of interest. As it happens, I think I have found something in the glossary, a pattern. It might be nothing at all, or just a minor something with no overarching significance, but I though it worth detailing here to see what you guys think.

There are a number of minor characters from the original trilogy who get updated entries in the TUC glossary, reflecting an "offscreen" death, taking place in the time between the end of TTT and the start of TJE. Some seem are pretty random, but still of minor interest, like:

Quote
Anissi (c.4089-4113) - The favorite wife of Cnaiür urs Skiötha.


Doesn't have much (any) bearing on the overall narrative, and there are no details given, but from the date of her death we can make inferences about the fate of a character we briefly got to know early in the story. I think we can all assume she didn't have a pleasant ending.  :(

There are others that, even if they aren't clearly marked as such, seem likely to have been casualties of the Unification Wars:

Quote
Trondha, Safirig (4076-4117) Man-of-the-Tusk, Galeoth thane, client to Earl Anfirig of Gesindal

I don't remember this character but he is also mentioned in the TTT glossary. Obviously without a death date. We can assume that Trondha continued fighting with Kellhus' host as the First Holy War gave way to the Unification Wars. Again, no details are given, but we can make this inference fairly safely. There are a few other entries like this, some explicitly stating the character died during the UW, some not, at random years between 4112 and 4122, the official end of the war.

But as I was going through this, I began to notice two things - 1) there were a handful of characters that seem to meet very suspicious ends, and 2) that a bunch of these "offscreen" deaths, immediately suspicious or not, occurred during the same year: 4121.

Quote
Hulwarga, Hringa (4086-4121) Man-of-the-Tusk, second son of King Hringa Raushang of Thunyerus, and leader of the the Thunyeri contingent of the First Holy War after the death of his older brother ... Found murdered in 4121, apparently at the hand of a jealous mistress, though rumors of sorcerous assassination persist.

Pretty juicy tidbit! Hulwarga definitely did not die in the course of fighting the UW, which had cooled off quite a bit by 4121 anyway. That there are varying accounts of the events regarding his death begs our attention and speculation. Is it just as simple as a jealous mistress? Can the rumors of sorcery be trusted? And if they can - what does that mean? By 4121, there are no mercenary schools. Which would suggest that if Hulwarga was assassinated by sorcerous means, then more than likely it had to have imperial sanction. But why?

One possibility, based on pure speculation alone (though if anyone can come up with textual evidence I'd very much like to see it) is that there was maybe some ongoing dynastic struggle between Hulwarga and his nephew, Vûkyelt, who was crowned the Believer-King of Thunyerus two years previously. Was Hulwarga jealous of his nephew's throne? Did he somehow poise a threat to the then still-fragile unification of (most of) the Three Seas? Did he harbor Orthodox sympathies? Without textual evidence I am inclined to doubt it. I am also inclined to doubt that he was simply murdered by his mistress.

If only because he isn't the only Veteran of the First Holy War to die under mysterious circumstances during the year 4121.

Quote
Semper, Midru (4078-4121) - Man-of-the-Tusk, Ainoni Baron in the First Holy War, murdered by unknown assassins while sleeping in 4121.

OK, this guys doesn't even have an entry in TTT. Is he mentioned in the main text anywhere? (I only have print copies, so I can't so a quick search, sadly.) That he gets a mention here in this glossary is a bit odd, and the only thing I can think of is that we are supposed to take note of the year and manner of his death. "Unknown assassins", "4121". What's going on here?

If Semper is an unfamiliar name, here's one that should definitely ring a bell:

Quote
Iryssas, Krijates (4089-4121) - Man-of-the-Tusk, young and impetuous major-domo of House Krijates ... Lost in calm seas off the coast of southern Conriya.

Would seem to be cut and dry. Minor character no one really cared about killed "offscreen" by, essentially, bad luck. People in the ancient and medieval world died at sea all the time, no big deal. Except the text here makes a point of noting that the seas he was lost in were "calm". That seems maybe unusual but certainly not unheard of or anything. But making that point expressly, along with the year it occurred (4121!), makes me think they we should definitely consider this another unusual death.

But maybe I'm making too much of this. Here's another famous name who died in 4121, certainly the most famous on this list:

Quote
Yalgrota Scranchammer (4071-4121) - Man-of-the-Tusk, Thunyeri groom of Prince Hringa Skaiyelt, famed for his giant stature and ferocity in war.

We all remember the Sranchammer from the original trilogy. Seems death came swirling down for him in 4121 too, though no details are given. Was he hanging with Hulwarga when he bit it? You'd think they would just say that explicitly if that were the case. The safest bet would be to guess that he simply died during some action in the UW, which were still going on in Nilnamesh in 4121.

So maybe all these deaths in 4121 are just a coincidence? It's possible but I have found four more names that died during 4121, and a fifth that appears to be a mistake. There aren't that many of these "offscreen death" entries in the glossary, and yet 8 of them share the same year.

Here's a few more names, none have any details regarding their manner of death:

Kasaumki,  Memshressa (4072-4121) Man-of-the-Tusk, one of the Nascenti
Ottma, Cwithar (4073-4121) Man-of-the-Tusk, one of the Nascenti
Tûthorsa, Beotha (4089-421) Man-of-the-Tusk

Interesting that two of them are Nascenti. And, like all of the above, they are all Veterans of the First Holy War. Possibly they were killed in UW action, but it is worth noting again that Nilnamesh was the only hotspot during 4121, so it seems unlikley that so many of these veteran entries have the same expiration date. You'd think the dates would be more randomly distributed. I can't help but think that we are supposed to notice this date.

Before going on to speculate any further, let's take a quick look at two anomalies in the 4121 pattern.

Quote
Kimish (4058-4121) - The Prime Interrogator to Ikurei Xerius III. Found dead in a ditch south of the Famiri frontier in 4121.


This is the only 4121 death that isn't a veteran of the FHW. I think we can assume however, given that the Nansur Imperial institutions welcomed Kellhus with open arms, that Kimish went on to serve the New Empire just as he had the Old. Interesting to note that he died in the Eastern Three Seas, in Famiri. I wonder what work took him there, so far from Momemn, and what if anything did it have to do with his death? Furthermore, it should be noted that all of those listed here are either from or were killed in the Eastern Three Seas.

One more anomaly, and it appears to be a typo, but one part gives me a bit of a pause so here it is:

Quote
Hortha, Sunhail (4064-4121) - Man-of-the-Tusk, Galeoth knight, client to Coithus Saubon, whelmed as a Judge following the conquest of Shimeh, only to be found murdered in Aöknyssus under suspicious circumstances six months afterward.

The death date appears to be a typo, based on the entry itself. It is probably supposed to read "4064-4112". Six months after the fall of Shimeh is probably still in 4112, right? Either way, it sure ain't 4121. The only thing that gives me pause is that this is  the only entry to mention a 'suspicious death' outside of the handful of '4121' cases detailed above.

Probably just a coincidence, but I thought it worth noting.

So what, if anything, is going on here? I don't want to speculate too much but it really does seem as though we are supposed to be picking up on the fact that this one year keeps popping up: 4121. So what happened in 4121 that might be of significance? The final capitulation of High Ainon occurs this year, and with it a brief peace before hostilities seemed to heat up again down south in Nilnamesh. This was, of course, the the peace that allowed Kellhus the time to pick up a new hobby: The Daimos.

The Aspect-Emperor's four month stint under Iyokus's tutelage plumbing the depths of Hell seems to have been a very controversial, almost scandalous event. Kellhus doesn't talk about it much and we are told a handful of times how uneasy it made some of the faithful.

My speculation is this: all or most of the above characters were murdered due to either simply fiercely objecting to Kellhus' daimiotic work, or perhaps due to witnessing some aspect of it that warranted making sure they didn't pass along what they had seen. The suspicious and/or magical nature of the deaths indicates to me some official Imperial involvement. I don't think it's all just coincidence (or at least not in the main), and I don't think the Orthodox, or the Consult are responsible, if that were the case you'd think we would just be told that outright. It's mostly intuition, I admit, but I believe Kellhus had all of these men murdered to silence them.

Given the importance of the Daimos to Kellhus' ultimate scheme to vanquish the Consult, this makes a lot of sense to me. If any of these men threatened his plans in anyway, no matter how loyal they may have been, I have no doubt that Kellhus would get rid of them ASAP.

Anyway, that's my idea. Please nit pick it and come up with better solutions to the problem if you can!


 
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: themerchant on July 25, 2017, 09:16:24 pm
That's a great catch, need to think on it more as didn't know about it till now :)
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Yellow on July 25, 2017, 09:37:28 pm
Ha, that's some seriously good detective work! No idea what the date signifies, except that something happened, and Bakker put a serious amount of work into the world that we don't even get to see.

Nice post, Mondoenghus  :)
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Woden on July 25, 2017, 09:42:14 pm
Excellent post, Mondoenghus.
When reading the glossary I've notice only the strange death of Irissas lost in calm sea, but now what you say sounds like a kellhusian purge to me.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 25, 2017, 10:33:43 pm
Great catch, I, like Woden, hadn't even really noticed any of those except Iryssas. It does seem like there was some sort of purge going on, all of those characters dying in the same year cannot be a coincidence. I wonder if they all knew something they shouldn't as you suggested, seems very probable.


Six months after the fall of Shimeh is probably still in 4112, right? Either way, it sure ain't 4121.

You are correct, Shimeh fell in the spring of 4112, so six months later would be in the autumn of 4112.


As for the other entries, I did notice poor Anissi when reading the glossary (maybe because it's an early entry), likely died at the hands of the Serwë skin-spy, no? That can't have been pleasant or quick. :(
Her daughter Sanathi also seems to have died at some point (when I first saw the death date for Anissi I went to check her entry too). Maybe she died in much the same way...
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 25, 2017, 10:46:28 pm
Some good detective work here! Great post.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Mondoënghus on July 25, 2017, 10:56:47 pm

As for the other entries, I did notice poor Anissi when reading the glossary (maybe because it's an early entry), likely died at the hands of the Serwë skin-spy, no? That can't have been pleasant or quick. :(
Her daughter Sanathi also seems to have died at some point (when I first saw the death date for Anissi I went to check her entry too). Maybe she died in much the same way...

Hmmm, I forgot about Sanathi. Checking her entry (I have the UK paperback) it has her death date listed as "?". Does your copy say different?

If she isn't dead, I am sure she was "apportioned" to one of the "mightiest" of the Scylvendi just like the widows were when Cnaiür  first united the tribes, as mentioned in the "Upright Horn" chapter of TUC.

Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 25, 2017, 11:09:43 pm
4113 would be when Cnaiur returned to the Scylvendi after Shimeh. I don't think being his favourite is much insurance against getting murdered by him or his pet Skin Spy.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: MSJ on July 26, 2017, 12:54:29 am
Great find. And, i think you have the right of it that Kellhus had a hand in these murders. 👍
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: locke on July 26, 2017, 04:03:51 am
Loyalists.

Head on a pole behind him. Literal human sacrifices
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: H on July 26, 2017, 10:41:49 am
4121 sure is an interesting year.  It is also the year that Kellhus takes to learning the Daimos.  Coincidence?  I very much doubt it.

I think it is the 100 moving against agents of Kellhus.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 26, 2017, 12:51:46 pm
Hmmm, I forgot about Sanathi. Checking her entry (I have the UK paperback) it has her death date listed as "?". Does your copy say different?

If she isn't dead, I am sure she was "apportioned" to one of the "mightiest" of the Scylvendi just like the widows were when Cnaiür  first united the tribes, as mentioned in the "Upright Horn" chapter of TUC.

Mine says the same - she did die at some point, we just don't know when, or else only her birth year would have been listed.

It's possible she did become a wife/concubine to one of Cnaiür's allies like you suggested, and still died at some point before 4132.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on July 26, 2017, 06:34:28 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Mondoënghus.

I'm with Woden and MSJ, 4121 has the earmarks of Kellhus consolidating power after the conclusion of the Unification Wars.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: False Man on July 27, 2017, 07:58:10 am
Great find indeed.
I think there are other things like this in the Glossary, you don't write 200 pages of names and definitions without putting something juicy here and there.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on July 27, 2017, 12:50:12 pm
Great find indeed.
I think there are other things like this in the Glossary, you don't write 200 pages of names and definitions without putting something juicy here and there.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to losing myself therein over the next week.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Redeagl on July 27, 2017, 05:59:12 pm
Great, great work there! I am on board with the theory that they witnessed something they weren't supposed to. Like that guy who saw Kellhus saw his head off, probably?
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: False Man on July 27, 2017, 08:33:55 pm
Ingiaban, Sristai (4059—4121)—Man-of-the-Tusk, Palatine of the Conriyan province of Kethantei. Murdered by thieves while visiting family in Aoknyssus.

Another one?
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 27, 2017, 08:39:33 pm
Ingiaban, Sristai (4059—4121)—Man-of-the-Tusk, Palatine of the Conriyan province of Kethantei. Murdered by thieves while visiting family in Aoknyssus.

Another one?

And another who died in Aöknyssus, too! The plot thickens...
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: False Man on July 27, 2017, 09:05:37 pm
Quote
In 4121, following the installation of Nurbanu Soter as King-Regent of High Ainon, the Holy Aspect-Emperor famously stayed in Kiz as a guest of Heramari Iyokus, the famed Blind Necromancer, learning the most forbidden of the forbidden arts, the Daimos

Quote
Soter, Nurbanu (4069–)—Ordealman, Believer-King of High Ainon, leader of the Ainoni contingent in the Great Ordeal of Anasûrimbor Kellhus. Originally Palatine of the Ainoni district of Kishyat when he joined the First Holy War, but made “King-Regent” of High Ainon as reward for his role in the Unification Wars. Renowned for his pragmatic brutality.

And there is no Kosoter entry in the Glossary (even Koll has one!).
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 27, 2017, 09:16:32 pm
Quote
In 4121, following the installation of Nurbanu Soter as King-Regent of High Ainon, the Holy Aspect-Emperor famously stayed in Kiz as a guest of Heramari Iyokus, the famed Blind Necromancer, learning the most forbidden of the forbidden arts, the Daimos

Quote
Soter, Nurbanu (4069–)—Ordealman, Believer-King of High Ainon, leader of the Ainoni contingent in the Great Ordeal of Anasûrimbor Kellhus. Originally Palatine of the Ainoni district of Kishyat when he joined the First Holy War, but made “King-Regent” of High Ainon as reward for his role in the Unification Wars. Renowned for his pragmatic brutality.

And there is no Kosoter entry in the Glossary (even Koll has one!).

That might just be because he's an important character? Main characters and the like don't usually get glossary entries... :-\

I wish we knew for sure if Kosoter was related to Soter, I remember someone bringing up that possibility in an older thread (maybe in the TAE Almanac?).
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: False Man on July 27, 2017, 09:49:26 pm
That might just be because he's an important character? Main characters and the like don't usually get glossary entries... :-\

Nevermind, Soter is with the Ordeal at Golgotterath during TUC, he cannot be Kosoter.
But if Kosoter is a Ciphrang or something like that it makes sense to give him a name that could pass for Ainoni (there is also a Kusjeter who dies in TWP) and a name similar to that of people who actually fought in the Holy War.
Anyway, there was clearly something going on in Ainon during 4121.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Mondoënghus on July 28, 2017, 02:32:26 pm
Ingiaban, Sristai (4059—4121)—Man-of-the-Tusk, Palatine of the Conriyan province of Kethantei. Murdered by thieves while visiting family in Aoknyssus.

Another one?

Wow! Totally missed this one! Good eye ...
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo on August 02, 2017, 09:34:49 pm
seems like you struck something, based on bakker's rafo response.

Seriously impressive catch.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Mondoënghus on August 02, 2017, 10:06:02 pm
seems like you struck something, based on bakker's rafo response.

Seriously impressive catch.

Thanks! Yeah, I saw that. Interesting to think this may have some bearing on TNG ...
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2017, 10:19:06 pm
seems like you struck something, based on bakker's rafo response.

Seriously impressive catch.

I have to agree, great job on this catch, Mondoënghus!


Thanks! Yeah, I saw that. Interesting to think this may have some bearing on TNG ...

I keep wondering if Bakker was congratulating you on finding this rather than hinting at a future development in TNG. I mean, it's hard to see how the surviving characters finding out about the deaths of 4121 would matter (or even work) with Kellhus and presumably everyone involved in the cover up/purge dead. There might be something I'm not thinking of here, though.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Mondoënghus on August 02, 2017, 10:26:18 pm

I keep wondering if Bakker was congratulating you on finding this rather than hinting at a future development in TNG. I mean, it's hard to see how the surviving characters finding out about the deaths of 4121 would matter (or even work) with Kellhus and presumably everyone involved in the cover up/purge dead. There might be something I'm not thinking of here, though.

Well, he wasn't speaking directly to me - I'm not on Reddit. But he did seem to respond to the query with a "RAFO", which suggests it may come up somehow in the next series. How? No idea!
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2017, 10:32:48 pm
Well, he wasn't speaking directly to me - I'm not on Reddit. But he did seem to respond to the query with a "RAFO", which suggests it may come up somehow in the next series. How? No idea!

Ah, sorry about that, I thought it might be you with a different username since this was the topic being brought up. :-[
I'm really curious to how this would work, maybe the 4121 conspiracy goes even deeper than we all thought?
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Woden on August 02, 2017, 10:36:54 pm
It is difficult for me to understand how this purge will have some actual and present relevance in the TNG series.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Mondoënghus on August 02, 2017, 11:59:33 pm
It is difficult for me to understand how this purge will have some actual and present relevance in the TNG series.

Honestly, I can't immediately see how it does either. But unless the "RAFO" was not meant for that question, then it seems that he's saying that it does come up at some point in the future.

An Atrocity Tale, perhaps?
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: MSJ on August 03, 2017, 02:44:42 am
Quote
I keep wondering if Bakker was congratulating you on finding this rather than hinting at a future development in TNG. I mean, it's hard to see how the surviving characters finding out about the deaths of 4121 would matter (or even work) with Kellhus and presumably everyone involved in the cover up/purge dead. There might be something I'm not thinking of here, though.

I keep thinking that wherever Kellhus is, hi soul (Decapitant?), that in TNG we will get flashbacks about how things went up til the start of TAE. The Diamos, deals struck with Gods and so on. I think that would be really neat. Maybe people relating stories whom were with Kellhus, i dunno.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo on August 03, 2017, 05:50:02 am
Maybe this has something to do with the Ekkinu, which glossary says are first mentioned in 4122, one year later. The glossary also says it might relate some kind of language, and indeed, kelmomas notices them "wax bright for no explicable reason," and immediately after sees the decapitants seemingly talking to each other. Wtf.

Also the white-luck-sorweel describes them "bearing an endless descent of writhing text that only he and the Demon (Kelhus) can read.

Maybe some kind of message board from the Outside?
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 01:23:02 pm
So... I realize that few people have read the Atrocity Tales but I'll put forth an interesting theory that profgrape and FB have inspired in me:

(click to show/hide)

And that's hopefully my only nerdanel for today. Gall, I feel like I should have thrown some all caps in there because that's worthy of FB and MG's crazy ;).
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 03, 2017, 07:24:08 pm
On finding the significance of these deaths ten years or more later in TNG, might Achamian's new status as Prophet of the Past factor in? It hasn't served much purpose since finding Ishual, but who's to say how it might continue to evolve?

Seswatha might also have made contingencies in the nature of the Dreams. Perhaps all Gnostic sorcerers will find them deeply changed with the No-God as a walking reality instead of a pervasive threat.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 07:30:57 pm
On finding the significance of these deaths ten years or more later in TNG, might Achamian's new status as Prophet of the Past factor in? It hasn't served much purpose since finding Ishual, but who's to say how it might continue to evolve?

That'd be really interesting should Achamian's Dreaming different souls be totally unrelated to or even simply just made possible by but not a direct result of the Grasping.

Seswatha might also have made contingencies in the nature of the Dreams. Perhaps all Gnostic sorcerers will find them deeply changed with the No-God as a walking reality instead of a pervasive threat.

That's an interesting thought indeed.

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, solipsisticurge. I remember liking your username immediately when I approved you ;).
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Mondoënghus on August 03, 2017, 08:37:38 pm
So... I realize that few people have read the Atrocity Tales but I'll put forth an interesting theory that profgrape and FB have inspired in me:

(click to show/hide)

And that's hopefully my only nerdanel for today. Gall, I feel like I should have thrown some all caps in there because that's worthy of FB and MG's crazy ;).

That's really good stuff, Madness. It makes everything I found somewhat confusing about THE CARATHAYAN pop right into place. And I can see how it might possibly tie into the 4121 murders as well.

As an aside, I must say I really enjoyed THE CARATHAYAN and think it is by far Bakker's funniest work. If Bakker has a weakness, IMO, it's his occasional use of humor. Doesn't work for me most of the time. But I think Scraul is pretty hilarious and likable character. (For a complete murdering psychopath, that is!)
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: H on August 04, 2017, 11:09:57 am
On finding the significance of these deaths ten years or more later in TNG, might Achamian's new status as Prophet of the Past factor in? It hasn't served much purpose since finding Ishual, but who's to say how it might continue to evolve?

Seswatha might also have made contingencies in the nature of the Dreams. Perhaps all Gnostic sorcerers will find them deeply changed with the No-God as a walking reality instead of a pervasive threat.

I don't know, I think it is plausible that Akka's dreams were compromised from the point at which Kellhus removed the imperative to not share the Gnosis.

Also, I like your avatar,  8)
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 01:59:30 pm
That's really good stuff, Madness. It makes everything I found somewhat confusing about THE CARATHAYAN pop right into place. And I can see how it might possibly tie into the 4121 murders as well.

High praise, Mondoënghus. Thanks. FB's comment was the impetus for my interpretative lens, however.

As an aside, I must say I really enjoyed THE CARATHAYAN and think it is by far Bakker's funniest work. If Bakker has a weakness, IMO, it's his occasional use of humor. Doesn't work for me most of the time. But I think Scraul is pretty hilarious and likable character. (For a complete murdering psychopath, that is!)

Lol, I liked it. I really wish more minds were tackling the aforementioned thread for The Carathayan (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2156.0). I do think there are a number of world nuggets that might fall out of that story with a more encompassing perspective.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: MSJ on August 06, 2017, 01:49:24 am
MSJ theory time! :)

Quote
Ekkinû—Sorcerous arras behind Kellhus’s bench in the Eleven-Pole Chamber. Sorcerous artifact of unknown provenance or function, first reported in the possession of Anasûrimbor Kellhus in 4122 (thus earning a place among the Orthodox “Articles of Damnation”).Several theories regarding its origins and uses have circulated through various literate entrepots around the Three Seas, among them the suggestion that the undulating displays constitute some kind of language, but consensus considers them decorative merely.

The mysterious deaths of 4121, hmmm. So, was checking out the EG and came across this entry, that Madness seems fond of. Here's my theory, the mysterious deaths of 4121 were a result of creating the Ekkinû. My bold, what if these undulating displays in fact constitute the souls that so mysteriously disappeared and is the work of the diamos. Or, rather, a means to use the diamos more effectively? Also, the Ekkinû surfaced just after 4121 and the deaths. Just some thoughts. Anyone have any other ideas?
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo on August 06, 2017, 02:06:41 am
MSJ theory time! :)

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Ekkinû—Sorcerous arras behind Kellhus’s bench in the Eleven-Pole Chamber. Sorcerous artifact of unknown provenance or function, first reported in the possession of Anasûrimbor Kellhus in 4122 (thus earning a place among the Orthodox “Articles of Damnation”).Several theories regarding its origins and uses have circulated through various literate entrepots around the Three Seas, among them the suggestion that the undulating displays constitute some kind of language, but consensus considers them decorative merely.

The mysterious deaths of 4121, hmmm. So, was checking out the EG and came across this entry, that Madness seems fond of. Here's my theory, the mysterious deaths of 4121 were a result of creating the Ekkinû. My bold, what if these undulating displays in fact constitute the souls that so mysteriously disappeared and is the work of the diamos. Or, rather, a means to use the diamos more effectively? Also, the Ekkinû surfaced just after 4121 and the deaths. Just some thoughts. Anyone have any other ideas?

The weirdest part is that sorweel sees scrolling text on them and notes that only he and demons can see it.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: MSJ on August 06, 2017, 02:13:44 am
Quote from:  CvKvD
The weirdest part is that sorweel sees scrolling text on them and notes that only he and demons can see it.

Yea, i dont recall that. But that would suggest the Outside is involved. Also, it aligns with these mysterious deaths perfectly.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on August 06, 2017, 02:03:05 pm
So, was checking out the EG and came across this entry, that Madness seems fond of.

Lol, well, I'm obsessed with the tapestry depicting Mimara as she sees herself through the Eye in the Mop but... I am also very curious about what the fuck is up with the Ekkinu.

And I haven't really read the Glossary yet so I don't know much about individual entries.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on October 12, 2017, 06:12:16 pm
Well, I finished the Glossary today - fucking finally! While I'm still convinced that the deaths of 4121 involve Kellhus' then recent Daimotic sabbatical, I've also become convinced that some of them - given other entries mentioning religious Excision - must have something to do with the Excision of Byantas (Glossary entry Byantas).
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Moosehunter on October 13, 2017, 10:35:53 am
Well, I finished the Glossary today - fucking finally! While I'm still convinced that the deaths of 4121 involve Kellhus' then recent Daimotic sabbatical, I've also become convinced that some of them - given other entries mentioning religious Excision - must have something to do with the Excision of Byantas (Glossary entry Byantas).

So basically Byantas and his disciples/main followers were all deemed apostates and killed?

Not something i had considered before. Personally i had assumed it to be early experimentation with Decapitant replacement and control. Range, recall, familiarity with the subject being important early on. Has he learned to create Ciphrang from fervent followers maybe?

It was interesting that Bakker killed the conversation dead when asked about it in his reddit AMA.  Bakker has stated in the past that the glossaries are to be no more trusted than real world accounts by biased historians recording events both during and long before their time (at least how i interpreted it). Meaning you are probably correct. He has given us as much as he intends to on this subject and it has no further bearing on the series. Just another morsel for us to pick to death.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on October 13, 2017, 05:04:00 pm
Just another morsel for us to pick to death.

And we will :).

I think it's both as you highlighted. FB has me convinced, as per The Carathayan, that Kellhus has more than two Decapitants in play. But I do think that Byantas' entry is interesting in and of itself as it seemingly has to do with questioning cultural manipulation.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Sausuna on October 13, 2017, 05:07:40 pm
Well, I finished the Glossary today - fucking finally! While I'm still convinced that the deaths of 4121 involve Kellhus' then recent Daimotic sabbatical, I've also become convinced that some of them - given other entries mentioning religious Excision - must have something to do with the Excision of Byantas (Glossary entry Byantas).

So basically Byantas and his disciples/main followers were all deemed apostates and killed?

Not something i had considered before. Personally i had assumed it to be early experimentation with Decapitant replacement and control. Range, recall, familiarity with the subject being important early on. Has he learned to create Ciphrang from fervent followers maybe?

It was interesting that Bakker killed the conversation dead when asked about it in his reddit AMA.  Bakker has stated in the past that the glossaries are to be no more trusted than real world accounts by biased historians recording events both during and long before their time (at least how i interpreted it). Meaning you are probably correct. He has given us as much as he intends to on this subject and it has no further bearing on the series. Just another morsel for us to pick to death.
For the record, Byantas lived some 2,000 years prior to Kellhus. While his excision might be related to the deaths, he has been dead a long time.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on October 13, 2017, 05:12:01 pm
Right. I'd have to go digging again but there was another entry that spawned this connection for me.

There's an entry, that as I recall, talks about Kellhus' Excision of an Ancient-North Norsirai hero that the Tydonni (I think) held culturally significant. The entry mentions that after Kellhus Excised him from the Record, he also killed a few nobles who wouldn't stop celebrating "That Hero's Day" (sorry, don't have the book near me right now - fuck, I really need to go back to having books out and within reach when I'm on the forum).
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Sausuna on October 13, 2017, 05:23:00 pm
Aulyanau the Conqueror (895—950)—Legendary ruler of the Cond who defeated Cel-Ongonean at the Battle of River Axau, leading to the Breaking of Ûmerau and the beginning of the Cond Yoke. His subsequent campaigns would unite the Norsirai for the first time since Uskelt Wolfheart. Since references to Aulyanau typically signalled pan-Norsirai sympathies among Middlenorth caste-nobles (particularly the Tydonni), Anasûrimbor Kellhus declared an Excision in 4128, striking all record of his name and famously executing several notables who continued to pretend that such a personage had ever existed.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on October 13, 2017, 06:03:10 pm
Lol, thank you.
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Dora Vee on October 13, 2017, 06:15:20 pm
And now that Kellhus is dead, I will guarantee you that they will go right back to celebrating "that hero".
Title: Re: From the TUC Glossary - The Mysterious Deaths of 4121
Post by: Madness on October 22, 2017, 05:26:53 pm
And now that Kellhus is dead, I will guarantee you that they will go right back to celebrating "that hero".

Quite possibly.

Someone has said (in our world) that we suffer death twice, once when we die and once when our name is uttered for the last time.