A Game of Thrones

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Callan S.

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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 01:27:31 am »
SoIaF was extremely popular long before the TV Series. So that is not it.

I guess what Martin did well was a) the shock-value aka killing characters, even protagonists, offhandedly and b) characterization and dialogue.
On the D&D newest edition forums that has been raised as an example for random character deaths - and so many people refute it, saying all the characters in game of thrones who die (ie, the ones they think are important) all die really big, important deaths and have plot immunity until they die that way.

It's interesting to both A: be on the off handedly side of the fence and B: to even see the off handed/'no wae it was a big, important death!' fence that divides both notions.

Callan S.

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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 01:29:36 am »
All that being said, I would still like to fist fight Martin.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 01:42:35 am »
All that being said, I would still like to fist fight Martin.
Thus is the TRUE mark of great fantasy!

No matter how many you sell, if no one wants to punch you in the face over it, you were nothing...

 ;D hilarious
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Kellais

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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2013, 09:15:50 pm »
SoIaF was extremely popular long before the TV Series. So that is not it.

I guess what Martin did well was a) the shock-value aka killing characters, even protagonists, offhandedly and b) characterization and dialogue.
On the D&D newest edition forums that has been raised as an example for random character deaths - and so many people refute it, saying all the characters in game of thrones who die (ie, the ones they think are important) all die really big, important deaths and have plot immunity until they die that way.

It's interesting to both A: be on the off handedly side of the fence and B: to even see the off handed/'no wae it was a big, important death!' fence that divides both notions.

Ok, i'm not quite sure, are you agreeing with me or are you disagreeing with me?
And i'm sorry but everyone who thinks Ned died a big, important death is full of ****  :P ;D
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Callan S.

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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2013, 12:04:53 am »
I largely agree with you, but I can see it from there side to a degree - Ned didn't die in a street scuffle with some no name guards - he got a big public execution.

I suspect though they try and make that execution a big, amazing, huge thing (and with their attendant notion that he had plot immunity until he gets killed in 'a big way') because they simply can't swollow a misery death. Frankly I would think the spasm of Neds legs made it a lowly occasion - but I think they block that out. They can't take the violation of the just world they project - they still have to project a measure of justness by saying it was a big, important death. As I said above I think it's possibly partly why the series is so popular - people feel compelled to fill in the breaches in the just world they wanted to imagine in the series. Like some beaten wife who thinks if she stands by him, she can redeem him.

But in the end, I guess I don't fully agree with either side, if that was your question.

Kellais

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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2013, 12:25:27 pm »
My question was an honest one  ;) I just was not sure if you agree with me or not. And if you did not agree with me i wanted to add to my post. But i guess as you largely agree, i'm good  ;D

On a more serious note: If your theory about those people is true, i find it hilarious. Because SoIaF is definitely about the world NOT being just and "oh how nice"! If you need such a novel, read something else, right?! I mean, how can anyone not see that. Oh well.
And lol...big public execution is now something important and big? I thought it was humiliating for someone of Ned's posture and renown. And he didn't even get a fair trail or a decent chance of escape.
Now i am curious how they explain their fuzzy-warm-feeling into scenes like the red wedding or the fact that both Stark girls have very harsh fates etc. etc. .
Care to link me to the thread you mentioned on the other forum?
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Madness

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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2013, 02:11:47 pm »
I've no more opinion to word than I did before about A Game of Thrones.

It satisfies me immensely to see this thread here at SA. I very much doubt Martin discussion here will mirror the sheer mountain of Bakker discussion on Westeros but this fitting.

Kellais, I've enjoyed your perspective immensely, insofar as you've shared. Cheers - glad you decided to add your writ to our proceedings.

Wilshire and lockesnow - play hard but play nice. We're all too aware of the concert of aggravations and biases we each suffer individually in our unique lives. We're all subject to fallacy.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 12:35:16 am »
My question was an honest one  ;) I just was not sure if you agree with me or not. And if you did not agree with me i wanted to add to my post. But i guess as you largely agree, i'm good  ;D

On a more serious note: If your theory about those people is true, i find it hilarious. Because SoIaF is definitely about the world NOT being just and "oh how nice"! If you need such a novel, read something else, right?! I mean, how can anyone not see that.
Well, if you have a just world fallacy about the real world...it's even easier to cast one around a fantasy world.

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And lol...big public execution is now something important and big?
Because it just haaaas to be?

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Now i am curious how they explain their fuzzy-warm-feeling into scenes like the red wedding or the fact that both Stark girls have very harsh fates etc. etc. .
They focus on Robb Stark's death (the red wedding was also referenced in the threads and described as some kind of epic moment)

Quote
Care to link me to the thread you mentioned on the other forum?
I wish I could - it'd be good to show them directly, but I can't find the damn threads and google can't seem to find them. I'll see if I feel evil and actually bring up the topic in a new thread there at some point. If so, I'll link it!

Kellais

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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 05:03:38 pm »


Kellais, I've enjoyed your perspective immensely, insofar as you've shared. Cheers - glad you decided to add your writ to our proceedings.



Hey, just see this now...thanks, Madness  :) I'm glad my ramblings are understandable stuff  ;D

@ Callan S.

Very true about the just-world fallacy and the real world...a kind of a "ouch"-moment  ;D

And how is the red wedding, even from Rob's POV ever an epic moment...those people have a extremely different brain-wiring to my own. I hope you'll tease them with a new thread on the topic...i would really like to see that  ;)
I'm trapped in Darkness
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"GoT is TSA's less talented but far more successful step-brother" - Wilshire

Francis Buck

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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2013, 02:39:14 am »
To me, ASOIAF's strength comes from its characters, dialogue, and the tightness of the plot (well, in the first three books, anyway).

The world-building is about average, in the modern era. Better than the absolute standard, if only for being somewhat richer, but still pretty mundane. Essos, in particular, really suffers. If Essos was less of an Orientalism hodge-podge (honestly the most compelling society there, in my opinion, is Braavos -- that's probably the most unique and interesting culture he has in the entire series), then I think Westeros would look less substandard. I think Westeros is actually a rather good take on the typical medieval Europe setting, if you look at it from the contemporary context (as in, when the first books actually came out). Today, the whole "subverting fantasy tropes" thing has literally become a trope in-and-of-itself. It's so commonplace that it has practically come full circle. This was not at all the case when AGOT came out. There were not a lot of epic fantasies, written on the scale of ASOIAF (nor with the quality of writing), that portrayed the kind of gritty world GRRM did. We only really started to see that boom, I think, in the 2000's.

So then we come to characters, dialogue, and plot. I would never really call his characters truly "realistic". They're almost a dramatized version of a realistic portrayal. I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah. It's like he takes small details from certain characters (generally their flaws) and then amplifies them. In a weird way, he reminds of Quentin Tarantino. Excellent pacing. Lots of twists and turns (no one can say it's predictable). Colorful characters with amusing, gripping dialogue. Deliciously evil villains. It's like the typical "style over substance", except it's so incredibly stylized that there is legitimate substance to it.

Just using Bakker as a comparison, I think GRRM's relatively more skilled in the basic mechanical skills of writing. Obviously Bakker dwarfs him when it comes to world-building (the metaphysics of GRRM's world are virtually non-existent, aside from warging), and I think Bakker is definitely aiming towards a more realistic approach to his characters, as well as a more "literary" approach overall, whereas GRRM clearly is not.

One thing that both Bakker and GRRM do (though in somewhat different ways), which I think is really a mark of someone that has poured a lot of energy into their work, is the sheer of amount of detail; little secrets, hints, "easter eggs", etc. The kind of stuff that the average reader would never even notice. There's a reason why these series draw such an intense amount of feverish speculation and intrigue among fans. It's because the richness of the worlds allow it to happen. Again, they do it in different ways. Bakker relies more on the metaphysics of his world, and the intentional deprivation of information from readers that the characters are otherwise privy to (which I personally find a bit cheap, but alas), whereas GRRM relies on the amount of individual character motivations and the inaccuracy of prophecies (which again, I find a little cheap). The best fantasy would combine all of these. But then that would be a perfect writer, and a perfect writer doesn't exist.

I will also say that I think people tend to hate on ASOIAF a little more nowadays, since the show has come out and it's crazily popular, simply due to the common reaction of, "Hey, this thing's popular, I'll be cool if I don't like it." I'm not saying that to point out anyone specific here...I mean shit, people who have been posting on Westeros.org for over a decade do this exact thing. And I'm not trying to discount anyone's opinion -- if you don't like something, you don't like it. But there's still absolutely a factor of: the more popular something gets, the more vocal a small minority becomes about how shitty said thing is. It's just a natural reaction. It happens with literally anything that becomes popular in mainstream culture.

And yeah, the idea that GRRM is writing this whole series in order to be popular is strikingly ignorant in my opinion, especially when put into the context of the literary climate that the first books originally came out in. It's very clear that GRRM is extremely passionate about his work and, if anything, is willing to sacrifice popularity for his own idea of "getting it right". I mean this is the same guy that made his fans wait ten years...ten years...to find out what happened to the characters that are generally considered the "most popular". He doesn't really seem like the type of dude who gives a fuck what people think of his shit. He's writing the way he thinks he should write it, as he should. And I commend Bakker for doing the same. It's just an unfortunate fact of reality that a lot people happen to find GRRM's style more accessible than Bakker's. And that's fine. But to try and discern some kind of pure qualitative difference between the two, based on that idea alone, is just silly in my opinion.

Davias

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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2013, 02:11:17 pm »
+1 Francis Buck
Well said. I say similar things to many friends of mine, who have read the books, when we talk about the series.

Kellais

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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2013, 04:39:12 pm »
Nice post, Francis.

I do not agree with all you said, but overall i liked it.

Two things that i wanted to pick out:

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Lots of twists and turns (no one can say it's predictable).

To be honest, this is only true of his first book (the unpredictability). I think the first book and Ned's End really got everyone by surprise. After that...not so much. For example, it always surprises me how many people were totally flabbergasted by the red wedding...i so saw this coming from page 1 of the 3rd Book.

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It's very clear that GRRM is extremely passionate about his work and, if anything, is willing to sacrifice popularity for his own idea of "getting it right". I mean this is the same guy that made his fans wait ten years...ten years...to find out what happened to the characters that are generally considered the "most popular". He doesn't really seem like the type of dude who gives a fuck what people think of his shit.

Meh...i don't know how passionate he is anymore...there is a reason why we had to wait ten years for one book (book 4 and 5 are one book, don't let anybody fool you) but i don't think it is his passion. He was doing tons and tons of stuff (also for other novel-universes he writes in) just not continuing on his major work. He was a lazy ****. And if you read all the whining and grinding he did on his blog about fans who wanted to know when the f*** he would sit down on his ass again and start writing...i really don't think that the way you paint him is acurate.

Anyway... don't get me wrong, i really like ASoIaF...it's still in my top 5. But unfortunately the quality of the series and my appreciation of Martin (as a writer) has dropped considerably. And to be honest, as we now have a show on top of all the other things he is doing (Con here, signing there, wildcard novel there, coop with other authors over here...he's doing everything just to not-have-to-write SoIaF), i am not sure we will see book 6 anytime soon (even if he says progress goes well...i just don't have any trust in him anymore).
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Callan S.

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« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 01:49:00 am »
So then we come to characters, dialogue, and plot. I would never really call his characters truly "realistic". They're almost a dramatized version of a realistic portrayal. I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah. It's like he takes small details from certain characters (generally their flaws) and then amplifies them. In a weird way, he reminds of Quentin Tarantino. Excellent pacing. Lots of twists and turns (no one can say it's predictable). Colorful characters with amusing, gripping dialogue. Deliciously evil villains. It's like the typical "style over substance", except it's so incredibly stylized that there is legitimate substance to it.
Sometimes I watch the TV version of Horrible Histories. And it gets me over and over again - how all the camping it up and going overboard - I keep just about rejecting it as simply hamming for attention. And then over and over, I realise that no matter how hammy and overboard they go, it's still a (if simplified/impressionistic version) of actual real world events. The perversity that no matter how hammy they get, how over excentuated they represent a character, that it's still relatively factual is really jarring!

Quote
It's very clear that GRRM is extremely passionate about his work and, if anything, is willing to sacrifice popularity for his own idea of "getting it right".
I wonder if this long pause in writing is part of that - a deliberate shooting himself in the foot? Particularly given alot of people would not have followed him to begin with and yet are quite vocal about getting the new book?

A game of who is who's bitch?

Clearly alot of people think its GRRM that should sit his lazy ass down.

Maybe GRRM is one of the last stands of artistic protagonism in a world drenched with entertainment - a last stand of the artist coming before.

Get on with your book, bitch! We come before you! And make Ned come back as a zombie avenger, 'cause we love him and we come first!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 01:59:29 am by Callan S. »

Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2013, 03:34:20 am »

Maybe GRRM is one of the last stands of artistic protagonism in a world drenched with entertainment - a last stand of the artist coming before.

Maybe he is, but I have a hard time believing that the HBO series wasn't simply for entertainment and money. Don't get me wrong, if I had the chance, I'd sure as hell take that contract too. Its basically free money. It just doesn't scream "artistic protagonism" lol.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 05:50:55 am »
Maybe GRRM is one of the last stands of artistic protagonism in a world drenched with entertainment - a last stand of the artist coming before.

I'm glad at least someone got what I was trying to say.