Animal (and AI?) Personhood with Singer and Brin

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sciborg2

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« on: November 23, 2013, 07:37:20 pm »
​Peter Singer and David Brin to speak at animal personhood conference

http://io9.com/peter-singer-and-david-brin-to-speak-at-animal-personh-1469864188

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The IEET's Rights of the Nonhuman Persons program — a program that I founded and currently chair — seeks to do much more. We'd like to see not just dolphins, but whales, elephants, and all great apes given the same consideration — and not just in principle; the only way to truly protect highly sapient animals from such things as undue confinement and experimentation is to grant them the status that they truly deserve, which is that of the person.

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But we're not only interested in animal welfare — we're also looking ahead to the future when artificial intelligence and robots will need to be granted personhood status as well lest they be abused, exploited, and left unaccountable.

Callan S.

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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2013, 01:01:50 am »
For animals, no, atleast not until we actually grant the status of a person to all actual people. We don't currently. It's like trying to attach a failing mechanism onto even more workload that it fails to do the work on.

As for AI, I call it different, as they are our children.

And like a child who puts their parents into a home eventually, you want to treat them good so they treat you good, eventually.

sciborg2

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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 01:00:06 am »
Bodiless AI will never deserve rights in my book.

Androids are up in the air.

Callan S.

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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 02:50:31 am »
Bodyless? Sooo, what are they made out of then?

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Androids are up in the air.
Look out!! Get to cover! Androids in the air! They keep shouting in caps about what were seein' and stuff! *just jokin'*

Royce

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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 11:30:37 am »
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For animals, no, atleast not until we actually grant the status of a person to all actual people

Huge +1.

The Great Scald

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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2013, 03:17:04 pm »
I dislike both Singer and Brin, although this article was a pleasant surprise. For the first and probably only time ever, I agree with them.

For animals, no, atleast not until we actually grant the status of a person to all actual people. We don't currently.

And we never will. Humans are pack animals, and in-group/out-group thinking is a part of who we are. "All humans are equal" (let alone animals) will only be a reality if we lose our humanity

(I wouldn't have anything against that, to be honest. Human exceptionalism is stupid and illogical, when it doesn't have a religious foundation. From a scientific viewpoint, exactly what makes us special snowflakes?)

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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2013, 08:13:31 pm »
(From a scientific viewpoint, exactly what makes us special snowflakes?)

Apologies for popping in, out of context.

We can affect change, Auriga. That's my answer. (Though, I understand what you mean about human exceptionalism and I think we should do what we can to cleanse our attitudes of that one).
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Callan S.

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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2013, 01:00:46 pm »
I dislike both Singer and Brin, although this article was a pleasant surprise. For the first and probably only time ever, I agree with them.

For animals, no, atleast not until we actually grant the status of a person to all actual people. We don't currently.

And we never will. Humans are pack animals, and in-group/out-group thinking is a part of who we are. "All humans are equal" (let alone animals) will only be a reality if we lose our humanity
Pff, I lose part of my humanity when I didn't kill that guy that one time for crossing me. All those times, actually.

What makes us such special snowflakes we aughtn't lose any tiny bit of the such special beasts we are?

Madness

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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 02:59:32 pm »
I'm pretty sure I posted a link to the Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness around here, which elucidates a number of animals that might be considered persons based on certain neurological criteria.

But...

Personhood Beyond the Human

EDIT:

It was in Animal Language:

Dogs Are People, Too.

http://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciousness.pdf - 'Cause it doesn't seem to have been here before.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 07:35:33 am »
Do zombies have rights?

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Would lack of qualia mean you also lacked human rights and could be treated like an animal, or worse? It seems to me that while lack of qualia might affect your standing as a moral object (because it would bear on whether you could suffer, for example), it wouldn’t stop you being a full-fledged moral subject (you would still have agency). I think I would consequently draw a distinction between the legal and the moral answer. Legally, I can’t see any reason why the absence of qualia would make any difference. Legal personhood, rights and duties are all about actions and behaviour, which takes us squarely into the realm of the Easy Problem. Our zombie friend is just like us in these respects; there’s no reason why he can’t enter into contracts, suffer punishments, or take on responsibilities. The law is a public matter; it is forensic – it deals with the things dealt with in the public forum; and it follows that it has nothing to say about the incorrigibly private matter of qualia.

Of course the doctor’s machine changes all that and makes qualia potentially a public matter (which is one reason why we might think the machine is inherently absurd, since public qualia are almost a contradiction in terms). It could be that the doctor is appealing to some new, recently-agreed legislation which explicitly takes account of his equipment and its powers. If so, such legislation would presumably have to have been based on moral arguments, so whichever way we look at it, it is to the moral discussion that we must turn.

themerchant

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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2014, 11:02:31 am »

Royce

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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2014, 12:39:27 pm »
That was amazing! Crow power

themerchant

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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2014, 12:51:36 pm »
That was amazing! Crow power

"“He’s not Cishaurim.” The thing had spoken this softly, as though to preserve tiny eardrums.

A cat-curious turn of the head. “Indeed,” the Synthese said after a moment. “Then what is he?”

“Dunyain.”

Tiny grimace. Small, glistening teeth, like grains of rice, flashed between its lips. “All games end with me, Gaortha. All games.”

Sarcellus became very still. “I play no game. This man is Dunyain. That’s what the Scylvendi calls him. She said there’s no doubt.”

“But there’s no order called ‘Dunyain’ in Atrithau.”

“No. But then we know that he’s not a Prince of Atrithau.”

The Old Name paused, as though to cycle large Crow thoughts through a small Inchoroi intellect."

It now all makes sense lol

Royce

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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2014, 11:50:40 am »
Anyone heard of the "hundreth monkey" myth?

These skeptics think that is bullshit:http://www.skepdic.com/monkey.html

There seems to be lack of evidence here for sure, so Sheldrake if you are reading this, what is up with those morphic fields man?

Madness

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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2014, 02:40:24 pm »
I've read so many versions of this over the years, Royce. There seems to be some confused mixing between cultural transmission, increasingly complex but still mundane, collective consciousness studies, and what's often referred to in a wider set of literature as "peak experiences," among other things (though, of course, these and whole sets of conceptions intertwine as they affect change).

I don't think there is a consolidate consensus, mostly because their hasn't been the extensive research done. All in all, I'm not sure what to say on the subject. Ken Wilbur has some thoughts concerning development of consciousness and its broader social expression (though I do wonder about his spiritual extensions).

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