The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Hogman on August 19, 2016, 01:09:07 pm

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Hogman on August 19, 2016, 01:09:07 pm
There's a reference to "Momas Almighty", some kind of a deity, on page 460. Any relation to Kelmomas? Perhaps there's an ancient language in which "Momas" literally means God? Perhaps Kel Momas (or Cel Momas) has a meaning? The fact that it comes very close to the reveal that the White Luck Warrior is blind to Kelmomas made me think there was some significance to it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Wilshire on August 19, 2016, 01:12:52 pm
If there was a meaning I'd think that it is pretty well known in Earwa, especially considering Celmomas - wasn't he the 2nd?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: H on August 19, 2016, 01:48:50 pm
Momas is some kind of God of the Sea.  It's a ship captain that praises Momas Almight.  Momemn is named after Momas because of it's harbor.  He is just one of the Hundred though, I'm not sure there is much more to it though.

Quote
Momas—The God of storms, seas, and chance. One of the so-called Compensatory Gods, who reward devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife, Momas is the primary deity worshipped by seamen and merchants, and is the patron divinity of Cironj (and to a lesser extent Nron). In the Higarata, he is depicted as cruel, even malicious, and obsessed with minute matters of propriety—leading some commentators to suggest he is in fact a Bellicose, as opposed to a Compensatory, God. His primary device is the White Triangle on Black (representing the Shark’s Tooth worn by all devotees of Momas).
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on August 19, 2016, 04:56:29 pm
Lots of bronze age Mesopotamian cultures that Bakker likes to channel had names derived from their Gods. Assurbanipal, etc. So Celmomas is probably derived in part from their god of the sea and dice. But I doubt there's any greater significance. If we could figure out what the Cel/Kel prefix means it would help.

I don't think Issiral was blind to Kelmomas. I think he was blind to Samarmas.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Madness on August 22, 2016, 07:29:40 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Hogman :).
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: geoffrobro on August 23, 2016, 03:32:44 am
I really need to do more research but I'm thinking Kel changes the outcome of various things the assassin was originally predicted to do. If I remember correctly in the past books the WLW kills the empress with a blade or some way but as we find out that never happens. I think that because Kel intervened. Like when he walks into the private meeting between Esmi and the assassin, I think Esmi was going to die that night but his entrance prevented it. That's why that night he dreams of that exact death.
Again I do need to do research.
And Kel at one point refers to himself as the greatest Hold Aspect Emperor and say they death of his brother and uncle Madrid him great. Maybe the next series???? I like it
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: themerchant on August 27, 2016, 06:05:11 pm
I've thought that Kellhus built the secret ways in much the same way the thresholds are constructed by the nonmen. Then esme shows them to little Kel, who uses them and dips out of view of the gods.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 27, 2016, 06:53:41 pm
I've thought that Kellhus built the secret ways in much the same way the thresholds are constructed by the nonmen. Then esme shows them to little Kel, who uses them and dips out of view of the gods.

I'm in agreement to an extent, I think Ajokli could ssee Kelmommas and aide in his escapades. Just like he can see the No-God, his abilities are greater than the other 100. One caveat though Merchant, the Threshholds didn't actually work, did they?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on August 28, 2016, 03:04:19 am
And we don't strictly know that Ajokli is involved at all other than possibly surrendering his Narindar to Issiral. I mean Kelmomas claims an affinity with the God, particularly in this book, but he also thinks Issiral is his agent come to aid him in assuming the mantle of Aspect Emperor. Which he accidentally proves catastrophically wrong.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 28, 2016, 02:25:04 pm
I'd say that there is plenty of textual evidence that Kelmommas is a agent/tool of Ajokli.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on August 28, 2016, 03:08:18 pm
How much of that evidence comes from anywhere but Kelmomas's musings, though?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 28, 2016, 03:19:16 pm
How much of that evidence comes from anywhere but Kelmomas's musings, though?

It's all in the TGO ARC threads. Its not his musings, the librarian explains it all and Kel doesn't even realize it's about him. Rather, he thinks it's about the Narinder.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 12:58:41 am
Kelmomas quickly comes to the conclusion that its all about him, but he's a raging narcissist.  He thinks its about the Narindar, but he thinks the Narindar is working to advance him.  He's highly intelligent, but his narcissism poisons all of his thinking.   
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 08:43:22 am
Kelmomas quickly comes to the conclusion that its all about him, but he's a raging narcissist.  He thinks its about the Narindar, but he thinks the Narindar is working to advance him.  He's highly intelligent, but his narcissism poisons all of his thinking.

No he comes to hold the Narinder dear to his heart, because like you say he takes out Thelli. And, that goes back to the quote about Ajokli granting Unerring Grace but in the end he will take what you hold dear.......the Narinder in Kelmommas case. Or, Esmi, wether she's dead or Kelmommas is dead to her after her seeing him gloat over Thelli's death. Sammy reminds Kel again and again about the sacrifice made to Ajokli, but yes, his narcissism makes him think he is above the tool of a god, he thinks he is a god.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 09:02:00 am
I'm just gonna need more than the voice in his head tell him maiming a beetle in front of a priapic altar counts as him being the literal chosen of Ajokli.

It's not the idea itself I object to. It's the utter certainty of it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 09:12:28 am
I'm just gonna need more than the voice in his head tell him maiming a beetle in front of a priapic altar counts as him being the literal chosen of Ajokli.

It's not the idea itself I object to. It's the utter certainty of it.

I literally just gave you more evidence in my previous post, along with countless other posts in the ARC thread that back it up.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 09:33:42 am
No, you haven't.  You've provided reasons that could mean he's the chosen of Ajokli, but don't prove that he is.  The only definitive example we have of something unusual happening is him being invisible to the White Luck, which could mean a god is shielding or could mean something else.   Kelmomas certainly believes he's special, but so did Conphas.  Narcissistic sociopaths are not good sources when it comes to their own relative importance in the universe.  I'm not saying you're not right.  It's fairly likely that you are right.  I'm just saying that there is no definitive proof that your interpretation of facts is correct.  You're assuming that the intervening force is Ajokli, which is a very reasonable assumption based on the evidence, but there is no definitive evidence that is Ajokli.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 10:02:07 am
I'm not saying you're not right.  It's fairly likely that you are right.  I'm just saying that there is no definitive proof that your interpretation of facts is correct.  You're assuming that the intervening force is Ajokli, which is a very reasonable assumption based on the evidence, but there is no definitive evidence that is Ajokli.

So Im basing my opinions on the facts we are given in the text and yet that is not definitive enough for you? Shall we make some things up then? All I can base my assumptions off of are the text. They text points to Kelmommas being chosen by Ajokli. How the librarian says it works and other bits we get here and there all point to this being the case. It's as much proof as you're going to get.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 10:20:14 am
Yes, it is as much proof as we are going to get another book comes out.  And you have good reason for making the the interpretation you do and there is a very good chance that your interpretation is the correct one.  I, and others, are saying that the text is not definitive on this point and much of the circumstantial evidence comes from the point of view of a narcissistic sociopath (albeit a highly intelligent one) and is thus somewhat suspect.  It's possible that Ajokli is being presented as a red herring to conceal some other force at work.  We're just a bunch of suspicious bastards and the text isn't definitive, so we're keeping our eyes and minds open to other possibilities. 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 10:25:44 am
A hypotheses can be valid without being definitive. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just also not convinced you're right.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 11:07:57 am
We are students of Drusas Achamain.  We do not deny, but we do doubt.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 11:33:38 am
Yes, it is as much proof as we are going to get another book comes out.  And you have good reason for making the the interpretation you do and there is a very good chance that your interpretation is the correct one.  I, and others, are saying that the text is not definitive on this point and much of the circumstantial evidence comes from the point of view of a narcissistic sociopath (albeit a highly intelligent one) and is thus somewhat suspect.  It's possible that Ajokli is being presented as a red herring to conceal some other force at work.  We're just a bunch of suspicious bastards and the text isn't definitive, so we're keeping our eyes and minds open to other possibilities.

But, here's where your wrong, the evidence does not come from Kelmommas. It comes from the librarian, things we learn about how Ajokli selects and treats his chosen ones. Kelmommas thinks that the WLW warrior is the Narinder of Ajokli, so how does anything Kelmommas thinks mean anything at all? None of the evidence I have presents even comes from Kelmommas. Kelmommas is a totally unwiitting pawn in the scheme of the things, he's being used the entire time, his narcissism means abslotutely nothing to wether or not he is a tool of Ajokli. It's the beauty of the whole plot.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 12:06:22 pm
But it does apply to Kelmomas.  Kel thinks he's the center of all the events.  He asks his questions of the Librarian because he thinks the Four Horned Brother is involved.  It isn't that the Librarians answers are wrong, it's that the assumption that Ajokli must be involved and not some other power.  Kel is convinced it's Ajokli and so doesn't asks questions like "who else could it be?"  And so in the absence of the elimination of other factors, we ask that question.  Everyone is wrong about who the White Luck Warrior really belongs to because they assume he's a Narindar because only Narinder's have super murder powers right?  They don't ask "who else could have done this?  Could the White Luck have done this?" because they assume the answer is already known. 

Kel doesn't look at what else could it be and because most of the relevant data is gathered from his viewpoint we are left blind to the alternatives just as the gods are blind to cause of coming Apocalypse and blame the only thing they can see, Kellhus we are blind to alternatives other than Ajokli.  This doesn't mean Ajokli isn't involved, it just means other alternatives haven't been eliminated.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 12:21:23 pm
But he is a ski g about the White-Luck who is clearly a vessel of Yatwer. He's not asking about himself, but the WLW.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 09:45:36 pm
Sorry for my hurried response there, was leaving work and in a rush. But yea, Kelmommas is not asking the librarian about himself, but the WLW. And, whenever Sammy mentions the beetle, Kel brushes it off as a conversation between equals. None, of what makes me think Kel is a tool of Ajokli comes from anything that Kelmommas thinks or does. Again, that's the beauty of it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 09:54:32 pm
No, Kelmomas isnt' asking about himself.  He's asking about the person who fascinates him and the god interests him.  Again, you may very well be right but what are the alternatives?  Could another god or agency produce those results?  With the Skin Spies we had two theories of their existence:  one they were a tool of the Cishaurim and the other was that they were a tool of the Consult.  But we were told by a reliable source that the Psukhe couldn't have made such constructs and then the captured Skin Spy called Akka "Chigra" which pretty much settled the question for the reader.  The question of what else could have done this and why must it be Ajokli has not been answered.  We know the gods are blind to the No-God.  What else is beyond their vision?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 30, 2016, 10:00:29 pm
We know the gods are blind to the No-God.  What else is beyond their vision?

Ahh, but we know that Ajokli is not blind to the No-God. Everything within the text points to Kelmommas being tool/Narinder of Ajokli. Why then, should we think that some other God that has their hand in these specific events? It seems like you agree with me, but for some reason or an other, you just like to argue with me, which is fine. But, the thing is, you have offered ZERO evidence that it could be any other God than Ajokli. When you find eveidence that some other Gods has a chance of being involved in this arc, then we can have a real debate. All you have offered so far is, "MSJ, your probably right and the facts support your position, yet I'm not 100% convinced that your right.". Which to me is a useless argument to be made.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 31, 2016, 12:39:43 am
How do we know Ajokli isn't blind to the No-God?  I know some people have speculated that he is, but I haven't actually seen the argument.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on August 31, 2016, 01:55:12 am
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: H on August 31, 2016, 11:24:32 am
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?

Well, throughout the Aspect-Emperor series, the Gods involvement is a major part of the plot.  This doesn't guarantee that Ajokli is responsible for anything, per se, but it sure fits with what we see from Yatwer (and possibly Gilgaöl).
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 31, 2016, 03:28:49 pm
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?

Well, throughout the Aspect-Emperor series, the Gods involvement is a major part of the plot.  This doesn't guarantee that Ajokli is responsible for anything, per se, but it sure fits with what we see from Yatwer (and possibly Gilgaöl).

Exactly. The Gods are involved because they are fighting for their existence. Though, Ajokli is the wild card, so to say. In the thread I started about the Gods, I presented evidence that Ajokli might not even be one of the 100. He is said to be a companion to the Gods. I even put forth the idea that he is a Nonman trying to fix the wrong they created, by creating the 100. Then helping Kellhus wwoild make sense, him being able to see the the No-God would make sense.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 31, 2016, 09:18:02 pm
And I cannot believe I haven't quoted this yet, because I believe that it demostrates that Kelmommas is certainly a tool of Ajokli and has this been granted Unerring Grace.

Quote
But before anything , he had begun to worry about his Strength . The more Kelmomas mulled the events of the previous months, the less he seemed to own them, the more glaring his impotence became.

He doesn't own any of these events, the murder of the Yatwerian leader and the subsequent murders were all guided by Unerring Grace. He is a tool of a Ajokli, that began the moment he sacrificed that beetle to Ajokli. And in the end, he had what was dear to him taking from him, the WLW, the one who killed Thelli and was on his way to kill his father. It all lines up perfectly, and we even have the confession from Kelmommas that he owned none of these events, just a pawn.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 31, 2016, 09:53:56 pm
Talk about reaching.  Yeah, he doesn't own these events because his mother is distracted by the siege, his sister knows what he is and is just waiting for the right moment to blow up this life, and White Luck Warrior seems basically to ignore him while in the last book he was creating crisis after crisis, committing murder after, and getting away with it.  None of these things can be solved by his go to plan of murdering someone and enjoying the aftermath.  This is only proof that he realizes that there is other shit going on that is not of his making or under his control. 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on August 31, 2016, 10:03:52 pm
Nah, not reaching, just more proof. See, funny thing is, is I've showed proof, facts and such and what have you shown for me to be wrong? I mean if you're gonna argue against my position, well, at least show something that could possibly prove me wrong. Becasue, don't take this the wrong way but, you shown exactly nothing that proves my theory wrong, absolutely nothing. It just be easier to bite the bullet and say, your right MSJ.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 01, 2016, 12:24:18 am
I've already said there's a good chance you're right.  If you wanted that, you had it days ago.  I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong.  I'm arguing that your theory is unproven, not incorrect.  My argument is that you lack definitive evidence and you do lack definitive evidence.  Men who do not understand the metaphysics of their universe claim that Ajokli sees more than other gods.  You jump to the conclusion that not only are these men are right, this means Ajokli can see the No-God.  A narcissist that is overshadowed by larger events and you claim that is proof that he is Ajokli's pawn.  A narcissist who likes Ajokli asks a man who doesn't know his emperor is a false prophet to tell him about Ajokli. 

None of that is definitive evidence.  The only piece of evidence that indicates any supernatural action the fact that Kelmomas's intervention was not seen by the White Luck Warrior.  That does fit your theory, but it does not prove it.  We know the gods do not see all.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2016, 01:18:53 am
There's one vague thing from the Narindar about Ajokli seeing what the others don't. But that's far from a certainty.

One doesn't have to offer evidence it's a God other than Ajokli unless we presume "Ajokli is helping Kelmomas" is the default standpoint rather than "I don't know what's going on". Why must any God be involved at all?

This. It's been long, long assumed that that one statement in Warrior-Vision by the Ajokli Narindar means any of variety of things and... well, we just don't know what it means yet.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 01, 2016, 02:10:00 am
I've already said there's a good chance you're right.  If you wanted that, you had it days ago.  I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong.  I'm arguing that your theory is unproven, not incorrect.  My argument is that you lack definitive evidence and you do lack definitive evidence.  Men who do not understand the metaphysics of their universe claim that Ajokli sees more than other gods.  You jump to the conclusion that not only are these men are right, this means Ajokli can see the No-God.  A narcissist that is overshadowed by larger events and you claim that is proof that he is Ajokli's pawn.  A narcissist who likes Ajokli asks a man who doesn't know his emperor is a false prophet to tell him about Ajokli. 

None of that is definitive evidence.  The only piece of evidence that indicates any supernatural action the fact that Kelmomas's intervention was not seen by the White Luck Warrior.  That does fit your theory, but it does not prove it.  We know the gods do not see all.

Lol. I was just being a bit of a smart ass, don't take it personal I was just joking. Anyhow, there is some evidence that Ajokli is unlike the so called other Gods. In the the thread "The Gods", I provided textual evidence of this. Not just what was said between the Narinder and the WLW. Ajokli is seen as a companion to the Gods. Which would add credence to the fact that he is not blind like 100 are. That's why I'm almost 100% sure he sees what the other Gods don't. If he couldn't see more than say....Yatwer, why would he intervene in her plot to kill Kellhus? More evidence that he sees what the other Gods don't. Every bit we have learned of Ajokli points to him seeing more and maybe (probably imho) not even really a God as Yatwer and the other 100 are. If anything from what we've seen, he seems to be aiding Kellhus rather trying to end him, which logically leads us to the conclusion that he sees what the 100 do not. Is it 100% definitive proof? No. But, not much is in this series, nor is it meant to be. Bakker wants us to puzzle these things out on our own, rather than coming right out and saying what's what. So, with that being said, is there any other entity that makes sense or there is a any shred of evidence for any other culprit other than Ajokli?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on September 01, 2016, 05:31:56 am
I really want to jump in with support for Cynical cat here but it's just kind of exhausting at this point. I admire your determination, MSJ.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 01, 2016, 08:04:12 am
There is no direct evidence of any being's involvement.  Unlike with the White Luck Warrior, as a counter example, we don't have a high priestess and a magic ceremony.  We have circumstances and conjecture.  Ajokli fits those circumstances very well, but the only being we know for sure that is invisible to the gods is Mog-Pheru.  So we have a bunch possible answers.

1) Ajokli
2) Some other god.  Not ruled out, but you would think Bakker would have dropped a hint so I don't think so.
3) The No-God is in some way connected the Kelmomas.  Out there, but we Mog-Pheru is invisible to the gods and that the Outside isn't strictly bound by linear time.
4) Some other entity.  Again, you think Bakker would have dropped a hint.

So yeah, it's probably Ajokli.  Probably.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2016, 02:25:14 pm
Just out of curiousity, what's being disputed here? I thought it was one thing and now it seems to have been another.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 01, 2016, 07:41:39 pm
I really want to jump in with support for Cynical cat here but it's just kind of exhausting at this point. I admire your determination, MSJ.

But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 01, 2016, 11:26:08 pm
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 02, 2016, 03:20:21 am
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.

Fair enough, you win dammit! Im exhausted of the subject also, lol.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 02, 2016, 06:11:04 am
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.

Fair enough, you win dammit! Im exhausted of the subject also, lol.

That said, you're probably right.  Ajokli really is the best candidate, although I would really like to see Kelmomas thrown screaming into the Sarcophagus. ;)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 02, 2016, 06:26:25 am
But support what? My determination is for someone to offer another contender for who it might be. If the only viable option via textual evidence is Ajokli then how could it be anyone other than Ajokli? Sorry, it I'm beating a dead horse.....

Because in a universe where the author deliberately holds important details back, assumptions can be misleading.  We don't know it can't be anyone other than Ajokli, Ajokli is merely our best candidate.

Fair enough, you win dammit! Im exhausted of the subject also, lol.

That said, you're probably right.  Ajokli really is the best candidate, although I would really like to see Kelmomas thrown screaming into the Sarcophagus. ;)

I would quite like that myself.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 02, 2016, 07:26:48 am
Just out of curiousity, what's being disputed here? I thought it was one thing and now it seems to have been another.

Lol. No longer a dispute. We have all exhausted our interest in Ajokli. :)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Madness on September 02, 2016, 12:46:56 pm
Lol. The thread is called Momas Almighty ;).

I really wanted to see more of the other cults in TGO.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 02, 2016, 12:58:52 pm
Yawter and Ajokli have the most interesting cults because they are not really absorbed into the body of the Thousand Temples.  In a sense we're getting the choice tidbits of Three Seas religious activity.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Madness on September 02, 2016, 01:03:21 pm
Can we rule out the possibility that other cults still retain a para-institutional subgroup like the Yatwerians seem to?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Monkhound on September 02, 2016, 02:03:46 pm
The Narindar are in theory such an organization. It'll work differently than the organization of the Yatwer sub-cult, but still.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Wilshire on September 02, 2016, 06:27:52 pm
For what its worth, MSJ had very compelling points. That half of the happenings here was entertaining :)

Back to the beginning two statements that spawned the next 3 pages:

I'd say that there is plenty of textual evidence that Kelmommas is a agent/tool of Ajokli.

How much of that evidence comes from anywhere but Kelmomas's musings, though?

MSJ pretty well covered the request and supported his initial position :) .
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 02, 2016, 09:32:41 pm
For what its worth, MSJ had very compelling points. That half of the happenings here was entertaining :)

Back to the beginning two statements that spawned the next 3 pages:

I'd say that there is plenty of textual evidence that Kelmommas is a agent/tool of Ajokli.

How much of that evidence comes from anywhere but Kelmomas's musings, though?

MSJ pretty well covered the request and supported his initial position :) .

Well, thank you, Wilshire! :)

You know the one thing I've learned from internetting on the forums here? You don't want me to be your lawyer! Because I'll argue till I'm blue in the face and swear I'm have enough evidence, then I just say.......fuck it! You win! I'm not ever gonna change these bastards minds or get them to just say, "Yes, MSJ. You're right.". I'm a softy, you'd be doing 25 to life....trust me. :)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 02, 2016, 11:06:39 pm
MSJ hs excellent points.  I did begin the argument by saying he was probably right.  He just has no smoking gun, there at least one other possible explanation, and our writer has at least one and probably more metaphysical rabbits to pull out of his hat.   Thus the doubt.

The cults of Yawter and Ajokli are by their nature's hostile to the authority of the Thousand Temples.  Ajokli is hostile to any institutionalized authority at all (as appropriate to a malign trickster god) and Yawter's alignment with the givers and hatred of the takers means that any institution that the elite of the Three Seas are comfortable with is going to be viewed with hostility by the true believers.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 03, 2016, 12:13:58 am
MSJ hs excellent points.  I did begin the argument by saying he was probably right.  He just has no smoking gun, there at least one other possible explanation, and our writer has at least one and probably more metaphysical rabbits to pull out of his hat.   Thus the doubt.

I do have a smoking gun. The 3rd earthquake, the one that sent the WLW to his demise. Earthquakes are caused by the Gods, and Ajokli used it to finish the job off.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 03, 2016, 12:15:24 am
You mean sent by Yawter to allow the White Luck Warrior to kill the Aspect Emperor.   
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 03, 2016, 12:20:07 am
You mean sent by Yawter to allow the White Luck Warrior to kill the Aspect Emperor.

No the one after the ceiling came down. I will find the quote and give you proof shortly.. The last one was caused by Ajokli.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 03, 2016, 01:45:37 am
Lol. The thread is called Momas Almighty ;).

I really wanted to see more of the other cults in TGO.

Well they was wondering if Momas was Kelmommas's namesake, then it just spiralled from there, you know?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2016, 08:05:18 am
Everybody apparently has Narindar at some point or another. Just Ajokli's entire priesthood is composed of nothing but permanent Narindari. Also the Anagkeans at least apparently retain an independent structure from the Thousand Temples, judging from dialogue in TJE and their attempt on Esmenet's life.

As to the Earthquake...did Yatwer send it, or did Yatwer just know it was going to happen? Or maybe like Samarmas suggests, there's no meaningful difference.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 03, 2016, 01:04:52 pm
Do the Anagkeans maintain an independent structure or were their some Anagkeans willing to kill the Aspect-Emperor within the Thousand Temples?  It's unlikely Yawter is the only one of the Hundred that sees the coming horror and blames the Aspect-Emperor.  Were the assassins orthodox holdouts, divinely inspired rebels, or an actual independent cult?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2016, 03:35:39 pm
The implication when the leaders of the Yatwerian cult were discussing them seems to be that the Anagkeans were independent but after the assassination attempt they were gutted in reprisal.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 03, 2016, 03:39:01 pm
The implication when the leaders of the Yatwerian cult were discussing them seems to be that the Anagkeans were independent but after the assassination attempt they were gutted in reprisal.

Being gutted in reprisal doesn't mean that they weren't part of the Thousand Temples.  I'll have to go reread those parts.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2016, 07:43:37 pm
I'd imagine they're trying to have it both ways like Yatwer.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Darzin on September 04, 2016, 10:15:47 am
Almoslt all of the cults retain separate structures, in the first trilogy there are quite a few references to cultic priests and separate from Shrial priests.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 04, 2016, 11:37:33 am
Almoslt all of the cults retain separate structures, in the first trilogy there are quite a few references to cultic priests and separate from Shrial priests.

That doesn't indicate that they aren't subject to the authority of the Thousand Temples.  That indicates those priests are dedicated to a specific god.   The Thousand Temples forms an administrative and spiritual authority over its member cults.  The Glossary at the back of The Thousandfold Though specifically mentions how powerful and popular by cult of Gilgaol is by stating that although the cult is subordinate to the Thousand Temples it has almost as many priests and receives possibly even more sacrifices.  Yawter is unusual by maintaining both an official, obedient public cult and a secret cult where its outlawed actual leadership resides.  Ajokli, of course, doesn't have anything as formally organized as a cult.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: The Sharmat on September 04, 2016, 06:35:17 pm
How would we know the others aren't doing the same? They're secret.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 04, 2016, 10:47:20 pm
How would we know the others aren't doing the same? They're secret.

We don't, not absolutely.  However both Yawter and Ajokli are highly resistant to subordinating themselves to a structure like the Thousand Temples, incorporate elements subversive to authority as core doctrine,  and are in themselves either illegal or have parts of their cult outlawed.  They can't be used as the baseline for what the other cults are like.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 04, 2016, 11:55:07 pm
Was just thinking about when Esme meets the Shakers on the road to Momemn in TDTCB, and they're hitting themselves on the back with whips or something like that. Well, they're the devotees of Onkis, correct? I just feel like there is some connection with that and how Kelmommas gets bit on the neck by Sammy, the head on a pole behind you and how twins are all connected to this. Not really any concrete theory or anything, just throwing it out there. It feels as if we're getting Sammy's POV as a way to demonstrate TDTCB.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 05, 2016, 11:13:50 am
@The Sharmat, @Cynical Cat, just so you know, when I used they word "bastards", is was not in the literal sense. I re-read it and thought it ill spoken. Sorry, if you guys took it as a direct reference.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 05, 2016, 11:50:39 am
No offense taken.  We're cool.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 05, 2016, 08:08:56 pm
Good. Just wanted to clarify myself. Sometimes I forget that there is so broad of a ethnic range on the internet, the Whole World. And, when what hand you shake with is taking as an insult someplaces, bastard could be the lowest of the low elsewhere. I didn't want to disrespect anyone. It's not me and my ol' boys having a beer shooting the shit on the porch. Where here bastard is used lightly, to say something frankly and funny. Anyway, just making sure everyone got how intended it to be. Again, sorry if I offended anyone.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 06, 2016, 03:17:25 pm
Okay read over the scene with Kel, WLW and Kelhus. It wasn't a third quake, it was part of the second, though i am of the opinion that the quake was not caused by Yatwer, but Ajokli. No where in any of the WLW visions is a guake involved. I think Ajoki used Kelmommas to break the circuit of the WLW and then used the quake to kill the WLW. This is also how I read it the first time around.

ETA: I will admit though that Yatwer caused the earthquake and by Kel simply being there to stun everyone cause the circuit to stop and the WLW fall to his demise. I can buy that too.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Monkhound on September 06, 2016, 03:46:17 pm
I reread that passage multiple times during the first read. The intriguing part is that Kelmomas breaks the "it has already happened" fork/prophecy/instance that worked to kill Thelliopa, and therefore makes that reality false/untrue (The idea that Kellhus has seen that part happen from the Outside and with that warn Sammi, is also still in my mind). Which in turn leads back to Kellhus's TTT to defeat Circumstance.
With all the deaths of "major" characters, I think this may be the turning point where the Hundred are actually not only beaten, but also the point where Kellhus defeats/undoes them. The remaining unknown pieces on the benjuka plate for him are Sorweel and Mimara. Nigh on all else is accounted for.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Yellow on September 06, 2016, 04:23:28 pm
Surely the quake had to be involved in the white luck - wasn't the falling chorae the thing that was supposed to kill Kellhus? Hence the quake must have been involved, no?

Sigh. Need to do a re-read already.

You are the fist that beats us.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 06, 2016, 05:45:56 pm
Surely the quake had to be involved in the white luck - wasn't the falling chorae the thing that was supposed to kill Kellhus? Hence the quake must have been involved, no?

Sigh. Need to do a re-read already.

You are the fist that beats us.

Well in the WLW vision doesn't Esme say "catch", as in throwing a chorae towards Kellhus. Its confusing no doubt and can be read many different ways.

ETA:  it's just a matter of who the quake came from, Ajokli or Yatwer.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Yellow on September 06, 2016, 06:00:59 pm
I think the "catch" thing is more to tie in the peach she threw at WLW earlier on with the chorae later on (which she had no involvement in). RSB's aim being to underline the casualness and precariousness in the whole situation. The whole saviour-of-mankind thing nearly ended as easily as one throws a piece of fruit.

You are the fist that beats us.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 06, 2016, 06:03:58 pm
I think the "catch" thing is more to tie in the peach she threw at WLW earlier on with the chorae later on (which she had no involvement in). RSB's aim being to underline the casualness and precariousness in the whole situation. The whole saviour-of-mankind thing nearly ended as easily as one throws a piece of fruit.

You are the fist that beats us.

Huh, I really like that Yellow. And I am definitely of the opinion that if Kelmommas doesn't show up and break the circuit...Kellhus dies, right there.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Yellow on September 06, 2016, 06:28:18 pm
Yeah, agreed. Even though I don't understand at all!

You are the fist that beats us.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: Frail on September 07, 2016, 01:53:38 am
Am I to take it little Kel dead at the end of the book? I am pretty sure Kellhus would be able to figure out the eye glances and his scream at the end.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momas Almighty
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 01:50:08 am
Am I to take it little Kel dead at the end of the book? I am pretty sure Kellhus would be able to figure out the eye glances and his scream at the end.

No, Kelmommas took off running through the palace. He's alive, and we'll be seeing more of him in TUC, no doubt.