The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Madness on July 13, 2016, 08:31:46 pm

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on July 13, 2016, 08:31:46 pm
First post of ARC thread (you can click the quote tag to get to the past thread):

The Great Ordeal has reconvened following the disaster at Irsulor and The Aspect-Emperor gives the dread command to consume their foe...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on July 28, 2016, 04:50:35 pm
Posting this on Facebook, but I'll post it here too, on the Tekne-Nuke:

Considering how it was buried, or seemingly buried under the ruins of Dagliash, but it must have been above the ruins of Nogaral, lest it have fallen down The Well. Perhaps it was a plan to take out Dagliash that never had to be executed? I can't imagine that a bunch of nukes is a good idea, even if they had multiple, they still need to live on Earwa after they close it. I doubt they want to live in a radioactive wasteland...

Hmm, in rereading The False Sun, I noticed something interesting:

Quote
Together they pulled down Nogaral, the High Round, raised it into a heap over the mouth of the Well.

[...]

At last they paused to regard their labour, the Inchoroi alighting upon the same spectral floor that bore Shaeönanra. Crimson sunlight bathed the southern ramps, inking the numberless crevices across the wrack and ruin. And they rejoiced, Man and Inchoroi…

They had no inkling of the greater violence their sorcery had unleashed.

The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.

It seems that something exploded in The Well?

But that seems at odds with the line "They had no inkling of the greater violence their sorcery had unleashed."  Huh?  If it was another bomb, surely Aurang would have known of it?  Unless it was Aurax's idea that never came to fruition?  Because if it was simply Titirga unleashing some powerful sorcery, surely they had an inkling of that?

Probably drawing lines from nowhere though.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on July 28, 2016, 05:13:03 pm
Lol - sorry, H, I ain't got no thoughts on that there conjecture.

But I'm actually fairly surprised this thread isn't getting more traffic. What say you, SA Hive-Meld? What is the fate of the Ordeal as they march on Golgotterath?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on July 28, 2016, 10:24:40 pm
Souls for the Coffin God. What else are you going to do with a bunch of PTSD crazed semi-cannibals that experienced Apocalypse Now and Judgement Day at the same time?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on July 28, 2016, 11:22:04 pm
I'm not sure. All depends on the type of soul you need or something, no?

While I like the appellation, I've never liked this whole Line O' Souls to the Coffin-God concept in order to raise the No-God - I'm still holding out that it is an entity unto itself.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on July 28, 2016, 11:42:12 pm
It still can be, but I feel like NG's presence is unique to Earwa and its sorcery. Soul sorcery produces the weirdest toys from what we've seen so it would fit in my mind.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on July 29, 2016, 03:37:36 pm
It still can be, but I feel like NG's presence is unique to Earwa and its sorcery. Soul sorcery produces the weirdest toys from what we've seen so it would fit in my mind.

Weapons of Animata (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=979.0) as distinguished from Sorcerous Artifacts (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1185.0).

We didn't get very far in either thread as I remember.

I think you're right about the Earwa and its sorcery being important, I just can't guess how. There are also the Chorae embedded in the Carapace, which must factor in somehow, as well as the Inchoroi unable to achieve "summoning, resurrecting, harnessing, birthing, whatever" the No-God without the later addition of Mekeritrig and Shauriatas to the Consult.

EDIT: Just want to say I very much enjoy your avatar. MG's a hoot.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on July 29, 2016, 04:06:40 pm
I think you're right about the Earwa and its sorcery being important, I just can't guess how. There are also the Chorae embedded in the Carapace, which must factor in somehow, as well as the Inchoroi unable to achieve "summoning, resurrecting, harnessing, birthing, whatever" the No-God without the later addition of Mekeritrig and Shauriatas to the Consult.

Oh, to me, there is little doubt that the No-God is near entirely Shae's idea.  His experiments in soul-trapping, his way of avoid death and damnation, all speak, to me at least, of what he must have put together of the both the Tekne and the arcane arts to arrive at the No-God.

There is no mention of them having done such a thing elsewhere.  If they had, that would have been the first thing to do on Earwa.  It wasn't though.  Scott also, in aswering my question on the Womb-Plauge, alluded that the chance discovery of causing death to the Nonmen women was part of what was put fully in place only with the advent of the No-God.

Shae is clever and no doubt put it all together where A&A (and company) had never had.  I'm still betting on the No-God being some kind of soul that holds souls, or something recursive like that.  Even though I stand fully behind my self-proclaimed user title.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on July 29, 2016, 07:28:51 pm
Kind of like a cup shaped cup-holder, or in this case a soul cup. Maybe even a Soul Train since they ferried him around like a Christian procession.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on July 31, 2016, 01:32:17 am
I'm not sure. All depends on the type of soul you need or something, no?

While I like the appellation, I've never liked this whole Line O' Souls to the Coffin-God concept in order to raise the No-God - I'm still holding out that it is an entity unto itself.

I'm with ya Madness. I've heard people say that's the reason for the GO, souls needed to raise the No-God. If souls were all that was needed then I can't see any reason why the No-God wouldn't have risen already. No, there is something other than that. What? I have no effing clue.

H, I believe what was described in The False Sun was a nuke. Remember that it was said to have spoilers. I think the nuke was part of the trap of Titirga. Great catch.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on July 31, 2016, 01:56:20 am
My guess is that they need a significant quantity of souls and consummated in relatively rapid succession. Maybe 144k, maybe less, maybe more. Considering all they have to work with realistically is some small quantity of tribes people and the attrition present due to Sranc and the long march to Golgoterrath, the GO strikes me as the perfect solution. The Consult's C2 structure and technological prowess, despite it's skin-spies is obviously not what it once was. They can't escape decay of their tools even if they are immortal biologically.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Triskele on July 31, 2016, 02:46:54 am
But why would Moenghus have believed that the Consult was close to reviving the No-God even 20 years before the Great Ordeal?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on July 31, 2016, 02:51:27 am
The bane of all rational agents, imperfect access to information. Which basically applies to all of our speculations as well :3
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on July 31, 2016, 02:55:00 am
@Triskele, that wouldn't make it seem like it was souls they were waiting on, would it? I just don't buy it. A certain soul? Yes. What if it's Mimara that's placed in the Carapice? And like @H's idea, Mimara starts answering all of the No-Gods questions? And, it awakens the No-God into a real God - or even, The God? The God Awakens, is TSTSNBN. That's CRACK-POTTERY right there.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on July 31, 2016, 03:06:00 am
See, but then why wouldn't they find anyone across 2000 years with the Judging Eye? I mean there have been others, otherwise Akka wouldn't know of it. Who went into the original carapace (OC) in the first place? Nayu's wife? Now that I might be able to get behind. Maybe.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on July 31, 2016, 03:01:47 pm
The bane of all rational agents, imperfect access to information. Which basically applies to all of our speculations as well :3

+1 8).

See, but then why wouldn't they find anyone across 2000 years with the Judging Eye? I mean there have been others, otherwise Akka wouldn't know of it. Who went into the original carapace (OC) in the first place? Nayu's wife? Now that I might be able to get behind. Maybe.

Well, Achamian, who has proven to always know more regarding any given subject than the reader, reflecting on things only when they become narrative context, suggested early in WLW that he only knew of rumours, innuendo, myth, legend, regarding the "Judging Eye." Apologies for not posting with the books at hand.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: themerchant on July 31, 2016, 04:13:37 pm
It might be perspective, when you're as long lived as the Consult. Soon is 20-30 years.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on August 01, 2016, 04:17:11 pm
Well, Achamian, who has proven to always know more regarding any given subject than the reader, reflecting on things only when they become narrative context, suggested early in WLW that he only knew of rumours, innuendo, myth, legend, regarding the "Judging Eye." Apologies for not posting with the books at hand.

I still feel pretty sure that the No-God is related to Shae's experiments in soul-trapping.  I don't think it has anything to do with the Judging Eye.  Sure, Akka knew of tJE, but he had no clue of it's relation to the Cubit.  Shae probably knows of tJE too, but again, has no inkling of it's real nature.  So far only Koringhus seems to have divined that information.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 04, 2016, 02:42:54 am
OK,  some thoughts from the Dagliash chapter and about the Nuke. I for one feel that Kellhus knew nothing  of the Nuke. Also,  he knew that Dagliash would be where the Consult would hatch a trap and it would be the most likely spot for their first confrontation.

Quote
They will come,” Kellhus had warned. “They will not abandon such might as the Horde manifests to our design . The Unholy Consult will intervene. At long last, my brothers, you will vie with our foe in the flesh, grapple with the Cause that moves you."


As others have pointed out, Kellhus was amazed and confused he he can be when he first encountered the Nuke. Having the Ordeal flee is a clear sign that he didn't want to sacrifice them and that he was very surprised about the Nuke.  Now,  I've seen where people say that sacrificing Saubon is proof he knew of it. But,  Saubon was going to be sacrificed regardless.  When Kellhus would've been finished making new ground of Virus and elemenating the Bashrag,  he would have left the same as he did withe Nuke. And, I am a firm believer that Aurang was there to activate the Nuke, rather than just be a spectator.

Quote
One tomb plundered to fashion another. Shivers through oceanic stone. The slip of fractures as old as old. The spit of dust from the ceilings. Some halls collapsed, be they humble or majestic, rooves clapping down, pounding wails and velvet dust through all the forking, subterranean hollows. And the beasts beat their cheeks for the stinging of slovenly eyes. The mulish barks of the dying set them baying in their thousands, strung and clotted through the veined deep. Anguish and outrage popping through sputum. The bellowing of elephantine lungs. Where were the Old Fathers?


From the perspective of the Sranc/Bashrag in the well of Viri, clearly waiting on Aurang to show up as part of the plan.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on August 08, 2016, 03:56:55 am
As others have pointed out, Kellhus was amazed and confused he he can be when he first encountered the Nuke. Having the Ordeal flee is a clear sign that he didn't want to sacrifice them and that he was very surprised about the Nuke.  Now,  I've seen where people say that sacrificing Saubon is proof he knew of it. But,  Saubon was going to be sacrificed regardless.  When Kellhus would've been finished making new ground of Virus and elemenating the Bashrag,  he would have left the same as he did withe Nuke. And, I am a firm believer that Aurang was there to activate the Nuke, rather than just be a spectator.

Man, I don't know. I really don't trust Kellhus outside his own PoVs. He is what he needs to be. Maybe at that point it suited him to look amazed and confused. Oh look a thingamajig buried underground which God has shown me. Through my divinity I have surmised things are about to get hella more real. Run people, while I look all the more heroic floating above and yelling at you peons to run faster. Then God will thoroughly explain to me symptoms of radiation poisoning and I will tell you all about it because I care and will make Earwa great again. Vote Kellhus 4132! He will build a great wall around Golgoterrath and make the Inchoroi pay for it!
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 08, 2016, 04:02:15 am
As others have pointed out, Kellhus was amazed and confused he he can be when he first encountered the Nuke. Having the Ordeal flee is a clear sign that he didn't want to sacrifice them and that he was very surprised about the Nuke.  Now,  I've seen where people say that sacrificing Saubon is proof he knew of it. But,  Saubon was going to be sacrificed regardless.  When Kellhus would've been finished making new ground of Virus and elemenating the Bashrag,  he would have left the same as he did withe Nuke. And, I am a firm believer that Aurang was there to activate the Nuke, rather than just be a spectator.

Man, I don't know. I really don't trust Kellhus outside his own PoVs. He is what he needs to be. Maybe at that point it suited him to look amazed and confused. Oh look a thingamajig buried underground which God has shown me. Through my divinity I have surmised this things are about to get hella more real. Run people, while I look all the more heroic floating above and yelling at you peons to run faster. Then God will thoroughly explain to me symptoms of radiation poisoning and I will tell you all about it because I care and will make Earwa great again. Vote Kellhus 4132! He will build a great wall around Golgoterrath and make the Inchoroi pay for it!

Lol. Not a fan of Trump,  and certainly don't see the comparison. I just see it another way, I see no evidence at all that he know of the Nuke. If he can deduce what people are going to do and say by looking at their face, then surely the probability trance can deduce the radiation sickness.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on August 08, 2016, 04:16:42 am
That seems a bit of a stretch to me. Unless I missed something very obvious (I do get tunnel vision-y) I don't buy he could know there was something there, dig it out and know exactly what it was. Kellhus tells what people want to hear and twists or leverages that so they believe in him more. His honesty is his weapon and people just shrug away the rest because he is so clearly godlike in his showbusiness displays. Trump bit is just my bad joke about massive followings of strongmen who play to their audience perfectly.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 08, 2016, 04:32:24 am
That seems a bit of a stretch to me. Unless I missed something very obvious (I do get tunnel vision-y) I don't buy he could know there was something there, dig it out and know exactly what it was. Kellhus tells what people want to hear and twists or leverages that so they believe in him more. His honesty is his weapon and people just shrug away the rest because he is so clearly godlike in his showbusiness displays. Trump bit is just my bad joke about massive followings of strongmen who play to their audience perfectly.

Wait. I think we're talking around each other here. I don't think Kellhus knew the Nuke was there. I think he was genuinely perplexed by the discovery and deduced what it was through the PT and told the Ordeal to flee. No acting, simply what happened.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on August 08, 2016, 04:52:06 am
Am I misremembering? I binge-read TGO pretty late at night and tired so what I recall was that he used sorcery to excavate it out of the place/ground? Was it just lying there in plain sight? I'll admit my memory is very fuzzy on this and I often imagine things that didn't actually happen. I am still skeptical he could have figured all that out without outside information, otherwise Moenghus just looks like a big dumbass in comparison IMO.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 08, 2016, 05:05:57 am
Am I misremembering? I binge-read TGO pretty late at night and tired so what I recall was that he used sorcery to excavate it out of the place/ground? Was it just lying there in plain sight? I'll admit my memory is very fuzzy on this and I often imagine things that didn't actually happen. I am still skeptical he could have figured all that out without outside information, otherwise Moenghus just looks like a big dumbass in comparison IMO.

No, the Nuke came out of Viri. Way I read it was he was doing his Meta thing making "new ground" to entrap the bashrag and shield from the chorae they had also. Hey, you could be right, he did know about it. Just not my opinion. Very few times, nah I can't recall a time we see Kellhus actually surprised, hesitant and he was both when the Nuke came up.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on August 08, 2016, 05:16:09 am
Yeah, but this is a guy that is supposedly in absolute control of every remote facet of his body and emotions. He doesn't strike me as a guy who would show something outwardly just because. All his legions are assigned with purpose. Unless the madness has truly claimed him. (point for that, seemingly casual conversations with Malowebi and Splatma) The only time I can remember being surprised and out of control was when Aurang possessed Esmenet and used pheromones or something.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 08, 2016, 05:40:02 am
Yeah, but this is a guy that is supposedly in absolute control of every remote facet of his body and emotions. He doesn't strike me as a guy who would show something outwardly just because. All his legions are assigned with purpose. Unless the madness has truly claimed him. (point for that, seemingly casual conversations with Malowebi and Splatma) The only time I can remember being surprised and out of control was when Aurang possessed q. Esmenet and used pheromones or something.

Right, but that's why I think he didn't know about it because he was surprised. Same way that Thelli tells Kel she doesn't have emotions, yet he gets a reaction out of her. Kellhus, his kids, Koringhus,  or any of the Dûnyain for that matter, have not completely stamped out their humanity. It's there, hidden, and occasionally we catch glimpses of it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on August 08, 2016, 02:43:46 pm
As far as I feel compelled to comment on topic, and I think regurgitate many of my ARC discussion thoughts, I'd say that Kellhus didn't expect the Tekne artifact. Likewise, the Consult didn't expect that the Metagnosis would allow Kellhus to Sing away Dagliash and excavate the ruins of Nogaral from the Well of Viri. Probably the Consult hoped Kellhus and company would be beset at Dagliash long enough for the Tekne-Nuke to explode beneath ground and take them unawares, especially as a greater portion of the Ordeal would have been much closer to blast-radius (as the Ordeal's plan fixated on converging on Dagliash).

And as for Kellhus knowing what the "golden coffer" is going to do: all he has to do is recognize that there is a countdown and that he and anyone he still needs probably shouldn't be near it when it counts down (countdowns are bad, mmm'kay ;) ). After that, he can readily see what the consequences of the fallout are.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Titan on August 08, 2016, 05:17:21 pm
I agree, I don't think Kellhus knew of the Nuke. But I do think he expected to find *some* kind of deadly surprise at Dagliash - it was important enough for the Consult to be sure that they would have something nasty in store for the great ordeal.

As for Kellhus deducing the radiation risk... He probably has some limited knowledge of Tekne, and has deduced the basic laws of physics. He could probably use his Metagnosis to peer into the nuke and deduce how how it worked, and then go from there.

But I do really like that moment - one of the few times in the series where Kellhus is surprised and temporarily unsure of what to do, until he finishes his probability trance.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Tyrin on August 08, 2016, 08:22:17 pm
Probably the Consult hoped Kellhus and company would be beset at Dagliash long enough for the Tekne-Nuke to explode beneath ground and take them unawares, especially as a greater portion of the Ordeal would have been much closer to blast-radius (as the Ordeal's plan fixated on converging on Dagliash).

I'm not entirely convinced that the Consult even intended to destroy the Ordeal with the nuke (in fact if some of the theories on No-God resurrection being thrown around are somewhat true, destroying the Ordeal at Dagliash might have been the last thing the Consult wanted).  I think the main purpose of the nuke was to destroy the Horde (and thus the Ordeal food supply), since the Consult knew it had finally been gathered all around Dagliash.

Why the indirectness? I think the Consult idea is to have a half-starved and reduced Ordeal show up at Golgotterath and be easily defeated and wrangled into No-God 2.0, since the hints seem to point to the need for plenty of human fodder for that purpose.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: spacemost on August 08, 2016, 09:15:18 pm
As far as I feel compelled to comment on topic, and I think regurgitate many of my ARC discussion thoughts, I'd say that Kellhus didn't expect the Tekne artifact. Likewise, the Consult didn't expect that the Metagnosis would allow Kellhus to Sing away Dagliash and excavate the ruins of Nogaral from the Well of Viri. Probably the Consult hoped Kellhus and company would be beset at Dagliash long enough for the Tekne-Nuke to explode beneath ground and take them unawares, especially as a greater portion of the Ordeal would have been much closer to blast-radius (as the Ordeal's plan fixated on converging on Dagliash).

And as for Kellhus knowing what the "golden coffer" is going to do: all he has to do is recognize that there is a countdown and that he and anyone he still needs probably shouldn't be near it when it counts down (countdowns are bad, mmm'kay ;) ). After that, he can readily see what the consequences of the fallout are.
I read it as the Consult's Plan B. It doesn't make sense to me that they would throw away their nuke, their Sranc, and the army they had hidden in Viri all in one go -- seems more likely they were hoping the Ordeal would be defeated in battle, but if they were not, then the tekne-nuke was hidden under Dagliash to finish them off.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on August 08, 2016, 10:59:12 pm
But a below ground detonation is a serious waste of its power. He might as well have shoved the damn thing down under again. Things don't add up for me. Primary witnesses of him digging it up ended conveniently dead.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: generic on August 09, 2016, 07:13:31 am

As for Kellhus deducing the radiation risk... He probably has some limited knowledge of Tekne, and has deduced the basic laws of physics. He could probably use his Metagnosis to peer into the nuke and deduce how how it worked, and then go from there.


Nah, I doubt that was the first nuke ever used. So there should be old Nonmen stories partly known to the Mandate.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 09, 2016, 09:49:38 pm
Proof that Kellhus didn't know of the Nuke and thought the real threat was the Bashrag and chorae. And why the Nuke coming out of the well was a surprise.

Quote
A legion …” Kellhus interrupted, his tone miraculously peeling aside the obstructing din. “Thousands lie concealed in the wrecked Viritic halls beneath our feet. Bashrag, Sranc . Sequestered here for days—weeks. Their stench rises through Dagliash as a soiled cloth.” Gwanwë, Saubon , everyone in the war-party, cast dumb looks at the ground. “Perhaps they anticipated our gambit,” the Holy Aspect-Emperor surmised. “Perhaps they hoped to catch us unawares after overcoming the Horde."

Quote
We need only bar their exit,” Kellhus said.

Quote
The Holy Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas smiled in grim reassurance. “We set plow to the field,” he said in reply to her unheard question . The din had swallowed all mundane voices save his own. “We make the ground anew."

This was the plan, this is what Kellhus anticipated. It's why he wanted to make new ground of Dagliash, to negate the threat of the legion of Bashrag and Sranc and a multitude of chorae. It just so happens that while making this new ground a golden coffer appears, mind you, unbeknownst to Kellhus. Saubaon informed him of it. As for Saubon conviently dying, well I think he would've been sacrificed one way or another, and that made clear between Proyas and Saubon's interactions.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Titan on August 10, 2016, 04:39:14 am
As for Saubon conviently dying, well I think he would've been sacrificed one way or another, and that made clear between Proyas and Saubon's interactions.

I think he planned on sacrificing *one* of them, yes, but I think Kellhus was keeping his options open by grooming both of them for command in his absence. And at the time of the nuke, Saubon just happened to be the one closer to it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 10, 2016, 01:40:34 pm
As for Saubon conviently dying, well I think he would've been sacrificed one way or another, and that made clear between Proyas and Saubon's interactions.

I think he planned on sacrificing *one* of them, yes, but I think Kellhus was keeping his options open by grooming both of them for command in his absence. And at the time of the nuke, Saubon just happened to be the one closer to it.

Well, don't you remember Proyas begged and begged to be the one to take Dagliash and Kellhus just...ignored him. It was giving to Saubon, because Nuke or not, Saubon was going to die that day. Proyas was Kellhus's only option to lead the GO in his absence.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on August 10, 2016, 04:31:12 pm
I'm not entirely convinced that the Consult even intended to destroy the Ordeal with the nuke

Yeah, I'm not sure either way, just trying to think in terms of least complicated intention.

I read it as the Consult's Plan B. It doesn't make sense to me that they would throw away their nuke, their Sranc, and the army they had hidden in Viri all in one go -- seems more likely they were hoping the Ordeal would be defeated in battle, but if they were not, then the tekne-nuke was hidden under Dagliash to finish them off.

I guess it all depends on the trigger. Is it a countdown? Is Aurang there to detonate or just oversee the happenings of things?

But a below ground detonation is a serious waste of its power. He might as well have shoved the damn thing down under again. Things don't add up for me. Primary witnesses of him digging it up ended conveniently dead.

Lol. Well, Dagliash is built on top of a tower that plugged part of a low-set mountain length Well, which itself is the center of a former Nonman Mansion, which riddles the interior of that mountain...

I'd imagine a below ground nuke might be entirely effective in this circumstance. The floor would just give out below Dagliash and outwards to a good portion of the Ordeal I imagine.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: locke on August 10, 2016, 06:29:16 pm
I take it like this:

The consult has spent twenty years testing kellhus abilities and will be aware of his sensory abilities: meaning they know kellhus will smell the sranc and bash rag immediately upon arrival. Which he does.  There is no way they can be ignorant of this ability post ishual war.

But they still lay a trap they know will not work. But they lay a second trap hoping the first will conceal its existence long enough and they bait the trap.

The second trap is the nuke, they know kellhus will anticipate a second trap, and indeed, kellhus does as he immediately begins excavating In search of the trap.

But they have to bait the trap.

Aurang is the bait, Aurang appears in order to lure kellhus away from finding the nuke.

But here is where it goes pear shaped. Saccarees, does not summon kellhus to take the bait.

Kellhus as a result finds the nuke and is able to salvage the ordeal from certain defeat.




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Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on August 10, 2016, 07:27:23 pm
I'll recapitulate my thoughts from the ARC thread that the purpose of the tekne-nuke was actually to destroy the Horde thereby destroying/irradiating the Ordeal's food supply. 

Think of the Kianene destroying the Nansur fleet off Trantis so the Holy War had to march without water.  Agongorea will be another trail of skulls.

Trying to kill Kellhus at Dagliash was a hopeful secondary objective.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Madness on August 11, 2016, 02:44:20 pm
+1 both the previous posts, if I do quibble with a secondary implication or two.

Question is of what comes next? The Consult has to put up now.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 16, 2016, 12:26:38 am
I wanna know why the Ordeal doesn't have a fleet of the "flying ships" we see Kellhus use at Dagliash. Like why is this a new development? Why haven't that been using these to scout ahead and such? I mean, I can set here and think of a thousand uses for them. Same as the Nonman chariots, why walk when you can fly?

Wouldn't it be more efficient than the Cant of Translocation?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: themerchant on August 16, 2016, 03:32:43 am
Probably only Kellhus has the ability to create the floating platforms.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on August 16, 2016, 11:55:45 am
+1 both the previous posts, if I do quibble with a secondary implication or two.

Question is of what comes next? The Consult has to put up now.

Well, I actually think that the Consult realizes that killing Kellhus is essentially impossible.  I think they are focusing more on simply destroying/ruining his plans now.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 16, 2016, 03:05:45 pm
Probably only Kellhus has the ability to create the floating platforms.


See, I don't get that. The Nonman had chariots before The Raft, and they didn't use the MetaGnosis.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: themerchant on August 16, 2016, 03:32:48 pm
Probably only Kellhus has the ability to create the floating platforms.


See, I don't get that. The Nonman had chariots before The Raft, and they didn't use the MetaGnosis.

those have the locomotion of horses running across the echo of the ground.

This is huge platform with locomotion provided by the metagnosis.

I'd say it's easier to move let a chariot run across the echo of ground, than fly a huge platform with hundreds of folk on it.

I obviously don't know, just my reading.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on August 16, 2016, 07:29:19 pm
Once the the war moves into Agongorea the Horde is a hindrance. It can do nothing but confuse their own operations and crowd out their movements, all while consuming everything their non-Sranc units need to survive. I think the Horde was pretty much done with at this point, but Kellhus managed to salvage more from the explosion than was anticipated, including the bulk of his sorcerers. So call it a victory, albeit a narrow one. Just my analysis.

I also gotta agree the nuke was the plan. I suspect Aurang was just dropping by to remote trigger it. The fact that they had a working nuke is troublesome, incidentally. They were supposed to have exhausted all the old tekne weapons.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 17, 2016, 09:00:42 am
Why should the Few exhaust themselves so some soldiers don't have to walk?  Sorcery is demanding and barring crossing huge obstacles like the river, it's simply a bad idea.  The chariots, which are cool, require trained drivers, horses that won't panic, and a sorcerer strong enough to sustain the cant.  It's probably pretty demanding and not worth the effort except in situations where you have a badass Nonman Quya and you want to cover a lot of Sranc haunted wilderness quickly.

As for the Tekne, the Consult have had a lot of time to search the vast halls of the Ark and find anything left behind.  They have also mastered enough of the Tekne so that they can create new abominations like Skin Spies.  If there was anything left behind or forgotten in a dark corner they may have found it and it's possible they have reclaimed sealed or damaged rooms.  In additions, they might be able to fix, recharge, or jury rig devices from whatever they have found based on the skills they now possess.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 17, 2016, 07:17:01 pm
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to transport the Ordeal, but there could be all kind of uses also. The Cant of Translocation takes Serwe and Co. from horizon to horizon. In a mountinous area, that's not very far. And this is physically draining of Serwe. I just wonder if using a Raft or Chariot would be worth the time to take important personal and the like. Supply runs, quick attacks and not only against Sranc but humans it would work a lot better. You guys are assuming it's more physically draining, yet we have zero evidence to support that. Or hell, maybe Kellhus came up with the idea of the Raft after seeing the Chariot in WLW. Which would make a lot more sense than its physically draining when the CoT is also.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: sohorat on August 17, 2016, 10:54:14 pm
Something that struck me when rereading The Great Ordeal was the idea that the Inchoroi actually seem to have used a nuke to soften their original landing (Arkfall):

"Those who witnessed and survived the event claimed that the cataclysmic impact of the Ark somehow preceded the Ark, that the great golden vessel dropped no quicker than an apple into the flash and upheaval of an earlier, far more tumultuous strike." 

Dagliash was the second time the Inchoroi detonated a nuclear weapon on the surface of Earwa. As a result, the Nonmen histories may contain a record of nuclear fallout, and radiation poisoning. 

The text also mentioned that Arkfall was preceded by the "waxing" of Imburil (the Nail of Heaven) by three years.  Are we supposed to think that these events are related?


Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on August 18, 2016, 12:10:23 am
Something that struck me when rereading The Great Ordeal was the idea that the Inchoroi actually seem to have used a nuke to soften their original landing (Arkfall):

"Those who witnessed and survived the event claimed that the cataclysmic impact of the Ark somehow preceded the Ark, that the great golden vessel dropped no quicker than an apple into the flash and upheaval of an earlier, far more tumultuous strike." 

Dagliash was the second time the Inchoroi detonated a nuclear weapon on the surface of Earwa. As a result, the Nonmen histories may contain a record of nuclear fallout, and radiation poisoning. 

The text also mentioned that Arkfall was preceded by the "waxing" of Imburil (the Nail of Heaven) by three years.  Are we supposed to think that these events are related?

Yea, it's been brought up and I believe you guys are right. Also, note that on the Earwa maps that there are other craters like that of Golgoterreth.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on August 18, 2016, 12:59:05 am
Something that struck me when rereading The Great Ordeal was the idea that the Inchoroi actually seem to have used a nuke to soften their original landing (Arkfall):

"Those who witnessed and survived the event claimed that the cataclysmic impact of the Ark somehow preceded the Ark, that the great golden vessel dropped no quicker than an apple into the flash and upheaval of an earlier, far more tumultuous strike." 

Dagliash was the second time the Inchoroi detonated a nuclear weapon on the surface of Earwa. As a result, the Nonmen histories may contain a record of nuclear fallout, and radiation poisoning. 

The text also mentioned that Arkfall was preceded by the "waxing" of Imburil (the Nail of Heaven) by three years.  Are we supposed to think that these events are related?
The fact that it was preceded by the arrival of a new star gives me two hypotheses:

1. The Ark was not itself FTL capable. There is, somewhere in space near Eärwa, an absolutely massive abandoned vessel/station that is the actual FTL device, while the Ark was their living space and warship.

2. Inchoroi FTL is achieved via wormhole. The new star is actually just the star of the Inchoroi's home system seen through it.

Similarly, I have two hypotheses for the greater cataclysm that immediately preceded Arkfall:

1. Orbital bombardment meant to weaken the natives prior to touchdown (I favor this one. Though I doubt it was a nuke. Sounds far too big. Some kind of huge rail gun I'd guess). If this is the case it may well the source of the other crater like mountain ranges (although I also think it's possible the Ark didn't land intact but broke up on the way in, creating the other craters)

2. It's some strange byproduct of Inchoroi FTL and they simply started decelerating too late for whatever reason, causing the place to be bombarded with a ton of exotic energy prior to the Ark itself impacting.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 18, 2016, 05:13:28 am
The Ark is more than large enough to be a generation ship and the Inchoroi were effectively immortal.  That means FTL is not required for genocidal star hopping.  The brightening of the Nail of Heaven and the light that proceeded the fall of the Ark could be the drive flare of massive engines, decelerating. 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on August 18, 2016, 10:29:37 am
The Ark is more than large enough to be a generation ship and the Inchoroi were effectively immortal.  That means FTL is not required for genocidal star hopping.  The brightening of the Nail of Heaven and the light that proceeded the fall of the Ark could be the drive flare of massive engines, decelerating. 

Even traveling substantially faster than the speed of light this would be an incredibly slow process. The Inchoroi would have to be doing this for millions upon millions of years to "descend like locusts upon countless worlds" like Wutteät claims. The universe is huge. Also if that's the source of the Nail of Heaven, why is it still there?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 18, 2016, 10:36:29 am
It's going to be a slow process unless fold space and burn a world in a day or something like that.  It'll be faster with FTL, slower without it but either way we don't know.  "Countless worlds" could mean dozens, it could mean billions.  We don't know how many worlds the Inchoroi have ravaged or how long they've been at it.

I wasn't suggesting that they were the Nail of Heaven, but that they were coming from the direction of the Nail of Heaven.  The go to that star system, do their evil thing, and then head to Earwa.  When they get close, the drive flare makes the Nail seem visibly brighter and they try to land on a pillar of nuclear fire.  Things go wrong and whammo, buried Ark.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on August 18, 2016, 10:48:25 am
The Nail of Heaven could also be a kind of a stargate-type thing. It flared when it was used and was charging before the passing through.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on August 18, 2016, 11:03:19 am
I got the idea that the Nail waxed from being visible only with instruments to being a its current brightness and staying there.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Somnambulist on August 18, 2016, 02:22:40 pm
Something that struck me when rereading The Great Ordeal was the idea that the Inchoroi actually seem to have used a nuke to soften their original landing (Arkfall):

"Those who witnessed and survived the event claimed that the cataclysmic impact of the Ark somehow preceded the Ark, that the great golden vessel dropped no quicker than an apple into the flash and upheaval of an earlier, far more tumultuous strike." 

Dagliash was the second time the Inchoroi detonated a nuclear weapon on the surface of Earwa. As a result, the Nonmen histories may contain a record of nuclear fallout, and radiation poisoning. 

The text also mentioned that Arkfall was preceded by the "waxing" of Imburil (the Nail of Heaven) by three years.  Are we supposed to think that these events are related?

Specifically regarding a pre-impact explosion:  this wouldn't necessitate a nuclear device being detonated.  Planetary impacts from comets/asteroids, dependent upon the size of the object, can produce explosions that rival or even surpass that of a nuclear device (at least ones we're familiar with).  Using Tunguska as an example (even though its not clear whether an object actually impacted or just exploded in the atmosphere), that explosion flattened nearly 800 square miles of forest, at an estimated 3-5 megaton detonation, compared to Little Boy (dropped on Hiroshima) which 'merely' detonated at 15 kilotons.

So, it could be that a piece of the Ark hit/detonated before the main body, causing the pre-explosion.  Maybe there's something beneath the Ark proper, waiting to be discovered.  Or maybe the Consult already did.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Bolivar on August 18, 2016, 04:07:19 pm
Something that struck me when rereading The Great Ordeal was the idea that the Inchoroi actually seem to have used a nuke to soften their original landing (Arkfall):

"Those who witnessed and survived the event claimed that the cataclysmic impact of the Ark somehow preceded the Ark, that the great golden vessel dropped no quicker than an apple into the flash and upheaval of an earlier, far more tumultuous strike." 

Dagliash was the second time the Inchoroi detonated a nuclear weapon on the surface of Earwa. As a result, the Nonmen histories may contain a record of nuclear fallout, and radiation poisoning. 

The text also mentioned that Arkfall was preceded by the "waxing" of Imburil (the Nail of Heaven) by three years.  Are we supposed to think that these events are related?
I also think it adds color to the letter Ninjanjin wrote to Cujara Cinmoi, specifically ash blotting out the sky and choking all seed.

If Kellhus was able to figure out the effects of radiation and fallout on his own, this would be why.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on August 19, 2016, 04:58:57 am
Ash would blot out the sky and lead to devastation of plant life from any big impact. If Kellhus was able to decipher any remaining stories of the Cuno-Inchoroi wars, that could explain how he understood symptoms of radiation poisoning. I imagine the Inchoroi did their best to exhaust their arsenal.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Borric on August 22, 2016, 04:50:20 pm
Could be the Ships shields that impacted before the Ark hit.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on August 23, 2016, 07:42:17 pm
Could be the Ships shields that impacted before the Ark hit.

If we take what we are told at face value, skin-spies are new, so perhaps it is also a rediscovered portion of the Tekne.  Or an amalgam of old parts for a new purpose.  Indeed, perhaps a shield or, I feel, more likely a fuel cell.  Perhaps that's what Aurax has been up to all these years.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Borric on August 24, 2016, 04:27:37 pm
Sorry I don’t think I was clear there H.

I mean the Arcs shields struck the ground before Arc impact, as they were presumable surrounding the ship.
Hence the story from sources who witnessed the impact of an explosion before the impact of the ship.

I’m not saying the Nuke was some kind of shield generator.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on August 25, 2016, 10:54:30 am
Didn't Paul also use nukes on his final assault on Arrakis?  :)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Borric on August 25, 2016, 04:56:42 pm
You mean the Mentat Duke.
Oh I mean the kwisatz haderach who used religion to build an Empire?
Yeah, he nuked the Shield Wall.

Just a few similarities  :)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on August 27, 2016, 08:36:27 am
So the Consult used a directed energy weapon on the shields the Non-men erected, and it was indistinguishable from atomics. Got it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: geoffrobro on September 02, 2016, 09:44:35 pm
So Saubon's shieldbearer the Holca, is he a decendent of the Holca from the knife of many hands. Or do all Holca have this rage mode. Because during my reread it seems he "hulks out" (Holca's out?) Right as the bashrag attacked.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: JRControl on September 03, 2016, 07:59:53 am
He has the Holcamania, brother. He believes in the three demandments (prayer, training, vitamins) and fears no pain, fears no man. /I'm hungover and I find this hilarious for some reasons. Judge not...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: geoffrobro on September 03, 2016, 04:07:02 pm
He has the Holcamania, brother. He believes in the three demandments (prayer, training, vitamins) and fears no pain, fears no man. /I'm hungover and I find this hilarious for some reasons. Judge not...

OMG perfect. Lmao now I'm picturing Holca horgan. A huge man with little girls doll hair.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on September 06, 2016, 03:25:39 pm
So Saubon's shieldbearer the Holca, is he a decendent of the Holca from the knife of many hands. Or do all Holca have this rage mode. Because during my reread it seems he "hulks out" (Holca's out?) Right as the bashrag attacked.

This is who the Short story in the anthology will be about.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on September 07, 2016, 11:39:08 am
So Saubon's shieldbearer the Holca, is he a decendent of the Holca from the knife of many hands. Or do all Holca have this rage mode. Because during my reread it seems he "hulks out" (Holca's out?) Right as the bashrag attacked.

Unclear.  My guess is that perhaps they all have it (since they are legendary just by being Holca), but none more than Eryelk (and so, his decendents).

One thing, he is not the shieldbearer, he is the spearbearer: "his famed Spear-bearer, Thurhig Bogyar, a red-maned Holca warrior, apparently descended from Eryelk the Ravager no less."

This is who the Short story in the anthology will be about.

Yes, the short story will be about the shieldbearer, Ûster Scraul, but he is not the Holca, he's a Kurigalder.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: geoffrobro on September 07, 2016, 01:07:53 pm
Short story?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Hogman on September 07, 2016, 01:24:37 pm
Short story?

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2016/07/23/gathering-momentum-without-expending-wind/

See the last paragraph.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: gtownwr on September 09, 2016, 07:00:22 pm


Hmm, in rereading The False Sun, I noticed something interesting:

Quote
Together they pulled down Nogaral, the High Round, raised it into a heap over the mouth of the Well.

[...]

At last they paused to regard their labour, the Inchoroi alighting upon the same spectral floor that bore Shaeönanra. Crimson sunlight bathed the southern ramps, inking the numberless crevices across the wrack and ruin. And they rejoiced, Man and Inchoroi…

They had no inkling of the greater violence their sorcery had unleashed.

The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.

It seems that something exploded in The Well?


Crackpot incoming...

What if it wasn't a nuke at all that Kellhus found, but the nominal False Sun, buried when the Nogaral was destroyed, and what if KELLHUS made it overload and explode, destroying the horde and killing Saubon, while simultaneously telling his Ordeal to flee to save as much as possible.  Surely Kellhus had heard of the betrayal of Titurga and the False Sun he carried. 

Probably not the case, but an interesting thought.  It wasn't Tekne at all.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2016, 08:14:53 pm
Welcome to TSA,  gtownwr

The False Sun... It would have had to have been quite the little energy storage device for it to go nuclear like that
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Somnambulist on September 09, 2016, 09:21:54 pm
Crackpot incoming...

What if it wasn't a nuke at all that Kellhus found, but the nominal False Sun, buried when the Nogaral was destroyed, and what if KELLHUS made it overload and explode, destroying the horde and killing Saubon, while simultaneously telling his Ordeal to flee to save as much as possible.  Surely Kellhus had heard of the betrayal of Titurga and the False Sun he carried. 

Probably not the case, but an interesting thought.  It wasn't Tekne at all.

So, when I first read this in the draft, I too thought it was the Diurnal.  Then it blew up and that thought got pushed aside.  The whole scrolling graphics thing made me then think it had to be something other than that.  Kind of weird to bury an ancient Nonman artifact, though, then have Kellhus dredge up another device, from the very same spot. It's just strange to me, but that's just my opinion.

However, this thought just occurred to me, based on what you said, gtownwr.  The Day Lantern is described as showing what appears to be the sun in full daylight, regardless of the fact it was night when Titirga confronted Shaeonanra.  Like a sorcerous Lens, but always trained on the sun. Shae even feels it, the promise of a sunburn.  So, it not only shows the sun, but transmits the heat/uv/energy of the sun.  With this in mind, the device could have been the Diurnal, but 'Lensing' a device located somewhere else.  A detonation of that device would have funneled through the Diurnal to Dagliash.  Maybe causing it to destruct, as well.  A Tekne/sorcerous explosion.  Shae obviously knew of the Day Lantern, and maybe figured out how to divert the subject of the Lens to a nuke instead of the sun.

And here I go debunking my own theory...  The description of the device didn't really sound like what Titirga was holding, but the physical description of the Day Lantern was sparse at best.  Meh.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: gtownwr on September 09, 2016, 09:29:44 pm
Much of the theory is based on the fact that we don't get much of a physical description of the Diurnal.  Thank you, Wilshire.  I have long been a lurker in the forum but finally the lack of people around me to discuss this amazing series with got the best of me and I joined.   ;D
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on September 10, 2016, 01:58:06 am
Crackpot incoming...

What if it wasn't a nuke at all that Kellhus found, but the nominal False Sun, buried when the Nogaral was destroyed, and what if KELLHUS made it overload and explode, destroying the horde and killing Saubon, while simultaneously telling his Ordeal to flee to save as much as possible.  Surely Kellhus had heard of the betrayal of Titurga and the False Sun he carried. 

Probably not the case, but an interesting thought.  It wasn't Tekne at all.

First off, @gtownwr, welcome! Love New perspectives and the more the merrrier! I like this. And, I'm digging it a lot. When I first read it, I had no idea it was a Nuke. It wasn't til joining The Afflicted Few, that it even entered my mind. While all signs point to a nuclear devixe, we know that the Consult created other weapons that resulted in similar sicknesses and the like. I'm open to this idea. Like to seer you explore it further.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on September 10, 2016, 06:10:03 am
Also why would Kellhus know of the events that transpired there?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: Monkhound on September 10, 2016, 08:24:22 am
Also why would Kellhus know of the events that transpired there?

He could have had glimpses of Time while he was in the Outside?
But while reading, I didn't get the impression Kellhus knew the bomb was there. But I'll have to reread the passage to confirm that.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2016, 06:30:52 am
Do we have any indication he can look Inside while Outside?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: gtownwr on September 12, 2016, 04:21:55 pm
Also why would Kellhus know of the events that transpired there?

I was assuming that a sorcerer as famous and powerful as Titirga (SP?) would have much of his life, including his betrayal at the hands of another most famous sorcerer, written down or mythologized and that Kellhus would have access to those accounts.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on September 13, 2016, 01:01:16 pm
Much of the theory is based on the fact that we don't get much of a physical description of the Diurnal.  Thank you, Wilshire.  I have long been a lurker in the forum but finally the lack of people around me to discuss this amazing series with got the best of me and I joined.   ;D

One issue with this, or course, is that the Diurnal is "a fan of mirrors that reflected the Sun" and might well be a Gnostic artifact, made by Emilidis.  The way the bomb is desribed is nothing like that though, "It was no larger than a dollhouse, but seemed larger for the piping that enclosed it—a scaffold that somehow held the interior cube without touching it." In other words, it would seem to be a tesseract.  I like the theory, but I don't think the text bears it out.

However, to take this another direction, I do believe that Kellhus knew that the bomb was there, what it was, and what it would do through the Visions and the Voice he hears.  The question of why the bomb was down the well seemed obvious to me at the time of reading it, that they wanted to blow the top off The Well and have everyone fall down it, just as they did to Titirga.  Kellhus anticipated this and that is why he was, from the moment they got to Dagliash, excavating the Well.  Aurang realizes this and so pops in to set it off early, which again, is antcipated by Kellhus.  This could explain why he says it is "a good thing" since it validates his visions as true, proves that TTT is intact and is proceeding, that all the sacrifices are not in vain.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: geoffrobro on September 13, 2016, 10:10:32 pm
*Gasp* you must burn the fields.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: MSJ on September 13, 2016, 11:42:54 pm
I think the Diurnal was not an artifact at all, only a sorcerous Cant devised by Titirga.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: H on September 14, 2016, 10:37:21 am
I think the Diurnal was not an artifact at all, only a sorcerous Cant devised by Titirga.

I guess that it's possible, but it certainly seems like a thing.  Could just be a fan of mirrors that Titirga casts a cant on, but it did seem like Shae knew of it before TFS.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash
Post by: gtownwr on September 16, 2016, 03:04:24 pm
Good thoughts, H.  I like the idea that finding the device confirmed to Kell that the TTT was on track.  +1