The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: Wilshire on December 15, 2015, 12:29:51 pm

Title: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2015, 12:29:51 pm
Kellhus and Cnaiur journey through the trackless steppe.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 12:56:29 pm
Slogging ever onward!

Chapter 12.

Quote
And by demonstrating need, he’d opened his heart, had allowed the serpent to enter.

Clever, clever Bakker.  Even if unintentional, what a great foreshadowing.

Quote
Moënghus’s face rises from the depths of a pool, pale through the greenish cast of the water. Throughout the surrounding darkness, caverns intertwine, like the thin tunnels one finds beneath large stones pulled from the grass. Just beneath the surface, the pale Dûnyain pauses as though tugged by some deep restraint, smiles, and raises his mouth. With horror, Cnaiür watches as an earthworm presses through the smiling lips and pierces the water. It feels the air like a blind finger. Watery and obscene, the bland pink of hidden places. And always, his own inarticulate hand drifts over the pool and, in a quiet moment of insanity, touches it.

Moe in a dark set of "caverns" surround by water?  Is Moe sending these dreams?

Quote
Was this what you intended, Father? Is he an obstacle you’ve placed in my path? Or is he an accident?
Likely the latter, Kellhus decided.

No, I am certainly not buying that.

I'm on the fence about if I believe Kellhus about being on a mission to kill Moe.  Prima-facie, I don't believe it.  Before meeting Cnaiür, he speaks only of meeting Moe, "dwelling in his father's house," not killing him.  I believe he tells Cnaiür he wants to assassinate Moe because he knows this is what will motivate him to help him.

So, what did they really send out Kellhus for?  And for that matter, why did they send Moe out, really?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 01:08:45 pm
H, I had the same quote highlighted in my book, I believe he is sending dreams. Also, I am going to have to take Locke's word that Kelhuss's entire journey to the barrow was conditioned and everything intentional. Because, I think that quote is a clue to Moe sending Cnauir a dream the morning he goes to the barrow.

Quote
Why had he come here? What purpose could such a solitary pilgrimage serve? No wonder his tribe thought him mad. He was a man who took counsel with the dead rather than the wise.

This in and of itself means very little, but everytime I read that scene it strikes me, "Indeed, why did you come here Cnaüir?". It seems Moe is in league with someone to get Kelhuss as far as he did, and that quote indicates he could influence Cnaüir also. For the sending of dreams to work you have to know where the receiver sleeps. No problems there, the White Yaksh. I will warn everyone though, that this theory that Moe is in league with the Consult is very prevelant in TDTCB, not so much after this book, I looked. But, what are rereads for? I hope you guys can find some more connections.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 01:11:37 pm
Moe in league with Mek to drive him ever further south, to the Steppe, perhaps?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 01:16:01 pm
Moe in league with Mek to drive him ever further south, to the Steppe, perhaps?

It would seem Moe is definitely in league with Mek. Here's the thing though, that doesn't mean the Consult. We know Mek has flipped allegiances before and what would stop him now? I dont wanna get too far ahead, but at the end of TWP, we have Aurang flying above the carnage and he asks a simple question, "Who are the Dûnyain?". So at the very least Aurang has no clue, it makes a Dûnyain/Consult connection seem impossible.

ETA: after all, what would be more memorable than willing the Consult off the face of Earwa? Nonmen, its all about memories.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 01:19:43 pm
Moe in league with Mek to drive him ever further south, to the Steppe, perhaps?

It would seem Moe is definitely in league with Mek. Here's the thing though, that doesn't mean the Consult. We know Mek has flipped allegiances before and what would stop him now? I dont wanna get too far ahead, but at the end of TWP, we have Aurang flying above the carnage and he asks a simple question, "Who are the Dûnyain?". So at the very least Aurang has no clue, it makes a Dûnyain/Consult connection seem impossible.

Yeah, I definitely don't buy the whole Dûnyain/Consult direct connection, because A&A put forth a heck of a lot of effort to discover more about them and are punished for the lack of knowledge, time and again.

I can absolutely buy Mek stirring the pot though, no doubt completely aloof.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 01:21:58 pm
Another thing that gives us a hint to Mek, is that Bakker was pissed off at himself that he revealed who Mek was. Before long, I believe we'll be seeing a lot of Mek.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 01:29:22 pm
Another thing that gives us a hint to Mek, is that Bakker was pissed off at himself that he revealed who Mek was. Before long, I believe we'll be seeing a lot of Mek.

Exactly, if it Mek's identity wasn't of consequence, the revelation wouldn't mean much.  Presumably though, it did though.

Actually, thinking along these lines, Cnaiür says they found Moe as a captive of a band of Sranc.  Since when do Sranc take captives?  No, this would seem to also point to the Mek-Moe connection.  He was no captive, he was traveling with Mek's band of Sranc and used them to guide himself to the Steppe.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 01:33:00 pm
Brilliant, H. It never made sense to me that Moe would survive because he is Dûnyain. Sranc are sranc, and meat is well....meat. If Moe didn't have a connection with them, then he simply would not have lived.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 01:40:04 pm
Brilliant, H. It never made sense to me that Moe would survive because he is Dûnyain. Sranc are sranc, and meat is well....meat. If Moe didn't have a connection with them, then he simply would not have lived.

Yeah, the line hit me upon this reread, but I didn't draw the conclusion until we delved into the connection further.

Quote
“It speaks the language,” the man muttered at length. He stepped closer, peering at Kellhus. “Yes,” he said. “Yes . . . You do not merely mock me. I can see his blood in your face.”
Kellhus again was silent.
“You have the patience of an Anasûrimbor as well.”

To go back to the Prologue for a moment, I have, before, entertained the idea that the he Mek refers to is not Celmomas, but is actually Moënghus, having met him when he first left Ishual.  In fact, in this case, it is what set the whole plot in motion.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 01:50:39 pm
Haha, I love it. And now we know why Madness has to refrain from rereads and discussions. This is pretty compelling and solid evidence we have here. And, I'm 98.5238% sure its true. It just lines everything up nice and neat as to how Kelhuss wouldve survived, because without the help of Moe/Mek, he simply doesn't. Mek is probably going to be the huge plot twist that this whole story hinges upon. He could be who is still carrying out parts of Moe's original TTT. Now, I'm not saying he's the mastermind because he is erratic, but he could still be pulling unseen strings.

ETA: And regardless of what others think I believe Moe is still involved in this story, too. We'll discuss that when we get there though.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2015, 02:16:04 pm
Hmm, I also thought that could have been a sent dream, however I think it could be far less than engineering kellhus' entire journey.

For some reason if Moe knew kell was in trouble and would end up on Skiotha's barrow, it seems reasonable that Moe would send a dream that would encourage Cnaiur to go rescue him.

Mek referring to Moe and not Cel is something I had not considered. That could fit, but I still don't see Moe as the master planner of kellhus' entire journey. The dude nearly dies like 4 times, if anything that points to Moe being almost as incompetent as kel (if in fact he was preparing most of the journy).
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 02:22:03 pm
Quote
Was this what you intended, Father? Is he an obstacle you’ve placed in my path? Or is he an accident?
Likely the latter, Kellhus decided.

No, I am certainly not buying that.

I'm on the fence about if I believe Kellhus about being on a mission to kill Moe.  Prima-facie, I don't believe it.  Before meeting Cnaiür, he speaks only of meeting Moe, "dwelling in his father's house," not killing him.  I believe he tells Cnaiür he wants to assassinate Moe because he knows this is what will motivate him to help him.

So, what did they really send out Kellhus for?  And for that matter, why did they send Moe out, really?

Well, we have the "Who is the Manipulator" thread, and my belief that Seswatha is that Manipulator. That theory hinges on a lot of "what if's", but let's talk about what we know.

1) When Kelhuss firsts leaves Ishual, all he ever says is that he is going to find his father in Shimeh. No inner dialogue about killing him.

2) he tells Leweth that he is going to his father in Shimeh, nothings has changed.

3) As you said, when he realizes Cnaüir wants to kill his father that is when we first hear that is Kelhuss's mission. Ain't buying it, all Dûnyain are lying liars who lie to meet their needs. Cnaüir knows this, but he wants this more than anything and is therefore tricked. Kelhuss even considers killing Cnaüir after the Steepe.

4)We hear the story of Moe being sent out to kill a band of Sranc and then being exiled because he's polluted.

Which I ain't buying. Remember when Kel first mmets the sranc? He has no idea what these creature are. He studies one before Mek shows up. He didn't know what the prints were when he showed them to Leweth. Leweth even remarked upon this, " You live in the North, and you dont know these?". This is all a story Kel uses to further his goal to Shimeh with Cnaüir. Really, anything we could come up with as to the true purpose of sending out Moe then Kelhuss by the Dûnyain, is pure speculation. But, its not the story Kelhuss gives us, that much I'm sure of.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 02:28:27 pm
Mek referring to Moe and not Cel is something I had not considered. That could fit, but I still don't see Moe as the master planner of kellhus' entire journey. The dude nearly dies like 4 times, if anything that points to Moe being almost as incompetent as kel (if in fact he was preparing most of the journy).

Yes, on the face of it, sure. But, what if Mek was supposed to guide him to the steppe? What if Mek just couldn't resist creating the memory? Or simply, Moe doesn't want Kelhuss to know much about Mek. Because in the end, Kelhuss is the tool of Moe and still is as of WLW. Hey, we all say how Kelhuss thinks he's always right but isn't, and the great irony would be that he is just a tool of someone.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2015, 03:48:53 pm
Yeah I think he's someones tool, but I doubt we've met anyone that isn't . Whoever isnt... comes before.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: The Lost Dunyain on December 15, 2015, 04:26:07 pm
I think there is a mention somewhere that Sranc do take prisoners, but that most of them don't survive, and hence everyone's surprise that Moenghus had survived. While it is possible that the Sranc travelling with Moenghus were controlled by Mek, another possibility is that they were cowed by Moenghus and his martial abilities. In the prologue, when Kellhus slaughters a large number of Sranc before the confrontation with Mek, the surviving Sranc actually become frightened and run away from him. If Moenghus wanted to cross the Steppe but was not aware of the presence of Scylvendi, he may well have decided to use the Sranc as guides. Such a thing would of course sound unbelievable to the Utemot who found him, and hence they would have assumed him to be a prisoner.

Regarding what Kellhus says about Moenghus' banishment from Ishual, if he is not speaking the truth, then why does he concoct such an elaborate lie about Moenghus going out to kill Sranc and getting polluted and hence being banished? Why not simply say that Moenghus committed some crime according to Dunyain laws, and or that he was an experiment to see what a Dunyain could do among world-born men or something? Either Kellhus is telling the truth, and there is some logic behind the lie, but I cannot figure out how this particular lie could sound more convincing to Cnaiur or whether it has any other purpose.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 04:46:44 pm
TLD, great points. Though I can't really see a band of sranc being cowed and manipulated into guiding a Man, doesn't fit their MO.

But, why doesn't Kelhuss show any previous knowledge of sranc when he first confronts them? Doesn't know what their tracks are. It just seems this story is a culmination of what Kelhuss has come across in his journey, and a reasonable story for Cnaüir to believe.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 15, 2015, 06:37:37 pm
I would imagine that if Sranc took a prisoner, there wouldn't be much left at the end.  No, I feel it's far more likely that Moe manipulated the whole situation, knowing full well that it would be highly suspect if he arrived with a Sranc entourage, it would be highly suspicious.  Odd, but plausible that he was a prisoner and somehow survived.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2015, 10:46:51 pm
Sorry I worded my response a bit different than I was thinking. I dont think Moe simply awed and cowed the Sranc into submission. Rather I think he manipulated Mek into arranging the scenario with the sranc. Yes, Moe manipulated the situation.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 12:48:35 am
I think there is a mention somewhere that Sranc do take prisoners, but that most of them don't survive, and hence everyone's surprise that Moenghus had survived. While it is possible that the Sranc travelling with Moenghus were controlled by Mek, another possibility is that they were cowed by Moenghus and his martial abilities. In the prologue, when Kellhus slaughters a large number of Sranc before the confrontation with Mek, the surviving Sranc actually become frightened and run away from him. If Moenghus wanted to cross the Steppe but was not aware of the presence of Scylvendi, he may well have decided to use the Sranc as guides. Such a thing would of course sound unbelievable to the Utemot who found him, and hence they would have assumed him to be a prisoner.

Regarding what Kellhus says about Moenghus' banishment from Ishual, if he is not speaking the truth, then why does he concoct such an elaborate lie about Moenghus going out to kill Sranc and getting polluted and hence being banished? Why not simply say that Moenghus committed some crime according to Dunyain laws, and or that he was an experiment to see what a Dunyain could do among world-born men or something? Either Kellhus is telling the truth, and there is some logic behind the lie, but I cannot figure out how this particular lie could sound more convincing to Cnaiur or whether it has any other purpose.
The key is "pollution" kellhus adopts an association between moenghus and pollution that cnaiur already believes: moe polluted me, moe is polluted, moe is unclean, etc... by using this verbal formulation of 'moenghus was polluted ...', kellhus crafts a lie cnaiur would never consider questioning because he already believes it intrinsically.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 12:30:06 pm
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

Quote
She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 16, 2015, 12:59:49 pm
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

Quote
She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.

Yea, this is where I get mighty confused as to why Serwe is so important/sacred to the books. I get that her belief in Kelhuss is what made the haloes appear. But, she is delusional, right? Kelhuss even remarks that they haven't even slept together. The metaphysics and all that seem to be above me here. I can't sort it out for nothing.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 02:05:18 pm
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

Quote
She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.

Yea, this is where I get mighty confused as to why Serwe is so important/sacred to the books. I get that her belief in Kelhuss is what made the haloes appear. But, she is delusional, right? Kelhuss even remarks that they haven't even slept together. The metaphysics and all that seem to be above me here. I can't sort it out for nothing.

Yeah, I can't say I get it either.  Is it her "innocence" that spawns it?  I don't think so, she really isn't all that innocent to me.  Then again, maybe she is though, driven to things by forces beyond her control.

No, I would guess it has to do with her desire to believe.  She wants to believe Kellhus is a savior, just like she wants to believe the baby is his.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 02:08:29 pm
Yep, something about belief and conviction make truth.

As for the baby though,  that chick is crazy.

Crackpot, the dreams sent to the dunyain were sent by future ascended god kellhus, telling him to kill his son Moenghus at shimeh, where he is born. "Send me my son", kellhus asking himself to send his no-son to the afterlife. Moenghus Jr is the no-god.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 02:34:52 pm
Yep, something about belief and conviction make truth.

As for the baby though,  that chick is crazy.

Considering how she went from coddled, to thrown to the wolves, to further wolves, can't say I'd blame her.

Crackpot, the dreams sent to the dunyain were sent by future ascended god kellhus, telling him to kill his son Moenghus at shimeh, where he is born. "Send me my son", kellhus asking himself to send his no-son to the afterlife. Moenghus Jr is the no-god.

Did this just turn into Book of the New Sun?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 03:24:13 pm
Won't know till the end, eh.
Title: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 03:40:22 pm
Finished chapters 13 and 14.

Quote
She smiled tears of rapturous joy. She could see him as he truly was now, radiant with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

This is the first time we have someone see the halos.

Also, we have Serwë's insistence that the baby is Kellhus'.  I'm not sure what to make of that though.
Quote
Yea, this is where I get mighty confused as to why Serwe is so important/sacred to the books. I get that her belief in Kelhuss is what made the haloes appear. But, she is delusional, right? Kelhuss even remarks that they haven't even slept together. The metaphysics and all that seem to be above me here. I can't sort it out for nothing.
kellhus doesn't have to be the holy one.  If serwe is the holy one, she could presumably make those whom she blesses/anoints holy as well. It's not her belief, it's her status and her abilities/powers.

And if it all flows through serwe kellhus will never realize it, because he'll just assume that she is deluded and overreacting to his manipulations.  In other words, he'll be blind to the truth because he never think to question whether or not it could be true--it's a self deception he already wants to believe.  Exactly like cnaiur and pollution+moenghus.

As for the baby it is clearly moes, and serwes claims are probably a coping mechanism.  That said, earwa metaphysics of adoption are unclear. Perhaps serwe insisting the child is kellhus later came true when kellhus adopted the child. Think of it terms of ancestors, of ancestors agglomerate in the outside afterlife and can be petitioned on ones behalf does an adopted child have a metaphysical connection to his adopted families ancestors or is he stuck unless he can figure out how to petition his birth parent ancestors? Given the modern day insistence about adoption making real family, I could see earwa making this metaphysically true.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 04:04:15 pm
Any word on why Serwe would be the chosen one to being with?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 06:37:11 pm
Any word on why Serwe would be the chosen one to being with?
Nope, but no one knows why peasant Mary was chosen by God either.  It's better than being the chosen one because of lame genetic "the farm boy is a secret prince " reasons.

Also she may have the judging eye her children were still births.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 16, 2015, 06:42:49 pm
Any word on why Serwe would be the chosen one to being with?
Nope, but no one knows why peasant Mary was chosen by God either.  It's better than being the chosen one because of lame genetic "the farm boy is a secret prince " reasons.

Also she may have the judging eye her children were still births.

Well, all could very well be true besides the still births. Her babies were born alive then choked to death, making them blue babies.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 06:51:40 pm
I dunno, I think kwizats hadirach syndrome is more compelling than the biblical "I choose you".

What fits better with a meaningful world? Intentionally creating a god-like being, or dice rolling?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 16, 2015, 07:04:59 pm
Any word on why Serwe would be the chosen one to being with?
Nope, but no one knows why peasant Mary was chosen by God either.  It's better than being the chosen one because of lame genetic "the farm boy is a secret prince " reasons.

Also she may have the judging eye her children were still births.

Well, all could very well be true besides the still births. Her babies were born alive then choked to death, making them blue babies.
What comes after determines what comes before? 

Also Did she hear or see live babies or was that just the story she was told?

Also akka doesn't seem to be a very reliable source about a woman's issue. Especially as mimaras experiences  absolutely discredit akkas third hand vague, poorly recalled and deliberately less-than-forthcoming hearsay.

 Recalls the way male doctors have historically discredited issues of women's health.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 16, 2015, 07:30:54 pm
Quote
She described the jealousy of the Gaunum wives, how they had lied to her about her first child, saying that it had been stillborn when Griasa, an old Shigeki slave woman, had watched them strangle it in the kitchens. “Blue babies,” the old woman had whispered in her ear, her voice cracked by an outrage almost too weary to be spoken. “That’s all you’ll ever bear, child .” This, Serwë explained to Kellhus, became the morbid joke shared by all the members of the household, especially among those concubines or slaves proper fortunate enough to be visited by their masters. We bear them blue babies . . . Blue like the priests of Jukan.

Quote
During the sixth month of her pregnancy, Peristus’s wife whispered, “Three months till the funeral, hmm, Serchaa?

Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 08:00:30 pm
Serwe herself doesn't appear to have seen or held her own baby
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 16, 2015, 08:06:25 pm
Serwe herself doesn't appear to have seen or held her own baby

Well, her baby being stillborn is plausible, but every baby born by a salve or concubine being stillborn really just isn't.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 09:27:12 pm
Of course not. At that point, why bother with that whole story.
Also, I feel like Serwe should know if her baby was alive or not after she birthed it. I could be wrong, as I've no experience in the matter, but I feel like it's obvious if you've got a live one.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 16, 2015, 10:27:49 pm
Why does Kellhus want Serwe so bad ? And are the haloes she sees real or is she just nuts ?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 17, 2015, 12:06:45 am
Thoughts on the Warrior:

I'm convinced Kellhus was not sent to kill Moenghus. Cnaiur thinks many times before even meeting Kellhus whether he should use the son to kill the father. And almost the first thing Kellhus says to him is that he's been sent to kill his father. Then the Sranc lie comes up. I'm sure the Dunyain weren't happy and maybe told Kellhus to kill him if need be but otherwise I think they just wanted to oblige him, send him his son, get the dreams over with.  Maybe there's even precedent for Dunyain going out and Conditioning ground, even for others, as Moe's dreams said nothing about dwelling in houses.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 17, 2015, 01:14:25 am
Thoughts on the Warrior:

I'm convinced Kellhus was not sent to kill Moenghus. Cnaiur thinks many times before even meeting Kellhus whether he should use the son to kill the father. And almost the first thing Kellhus says to him is that he's been sent to kill his father. Then the Sranc lie comes up. I'm sure the Dunyain weren't happy and maybe told Kellhus to kill him if need be but otherwise I think they just wanted to oblige him, send him his son, get the dreams over with.  Maybe there's even precedent for Dunyain going out and Conditioning ground, even for others, as Moe's dreams said nothing about dwelling in houses.
Vast landscapes, histories, contests of faith and culture, all glimpsed in cataracts of detail.

A data dump. But kellhus seems ignorant of all that info. He's aware it happened but did not retain any of it. In spite of his perfect memory


So moe probably uploaded  a massive data to the dunyain dropbox, then they took away kellhus file permissions and sent him out like a time bomb.

It's reasonable to expect that given the data upload, the dunyain all share moenghus knowledge, except kellhus. (If moe's dunyain he shares all data, if he is not dunyain he would share selective data)

As someone once said, maybe what moe needed was a broken dunyain, not an intact.

In other words, kellhus was not sent to kill moe

This is presuming moe is still dunyain and Kell is wrong about their being natural allies of the consult.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 17, 2015, 02:01:31 am
I'm picking up what you're putting down Locke, and I like it. That makes a lot of sense. As if Moe was sent out to gather intel, because the Dûnyain are not oblivious to the happenings of the world. They serve a purpose. Fits in nicely with Seswatha the manipulator.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 17, 2015, 06:23:30 am
From TTT

"Scrutiny. Calculation.

"It's not in your interest to deceive me." A stone‐faced pause. "Unless ..."

"Unless," Kellhus said, "I've come to assassinate you, as our Dûnyain brothers have decreed ... Is this your apprehension?"

Scrutiny. Calculation.

You have not the power to overcome me."

"But I do, Father."
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 17, 2015, 12:02:37 pm
On the one hand, I have the strongest feelings that while Kellhus is decieving everyone along his way here, he is also deceiving us, the readers.

In this way, I very much doubt what he says of his mission.  It rings to easily of exactly what Cnaiür wants to hear.

Just finished chapter 14.

Quote
He’d suffered so many dreams of Anasûrimbor Celmomas of late, and now this, a waking vision of the world’s ancient end. A Scylvendi!

And yet, only a couple pages later, Akka is presented with the real reason for the dreams, but doesn't put the two together.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 17, 2015, 01:24:24 pm
I'd like to mention that History is something that has given me trouble on this read. The Dunyain in the beginning scoured all history from Ishual, and later the Praga and Kellhus mention that they repudiate all history in order to grasp the absolute.

If that's true, then Moe sending histories to the Dunyain could have been an extremely taboo thing. Something that, if they truely have shunned history, could have made those polluted with it feel like they could no longer continue their mission, thus mass suicide.

However, in TWP What Came Before, it specifically mentions history or something all dunyain lean about in order to better grab TDTB. Which, to me, makes perfect sense, far more so than ignoring history, but it's wholly inconsistent with what we learn in the first book.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 17, 2015, 01:39:00 pm
Well, I think this is what you refer to:

Quote
In the effort to transform themselves into the perfect expression of the Logos, the Dûnyain have bent their entire existence to mastering the irrationalities that determine human thought: history, custom, and passion.

While it's kind of silly to think in these terms, their "mastering" of history is the repudiation of it.  They purposely ignore history, in order to attempt to be a-historical.

I have my doubts that this works though, even in the context of Earwa.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 17, 2015, 04:02:18 pm
Well, I think this is what you refer to:

Quote
In the effort to transform themselves into the perfect expression of the Logos, the Dûnyain have bent their entire existence to mastering the irrationalities that determine human thought: history, custom, and passion.

While it's kind of silly to think in these terms, their "mastering" of history is the repudiation of it.  They purposely ignore history, in order to attempt to be a-historical.

I have my doubts that this works though, even in the context of Earwa.
Well that's a convoluted rationalization.

More likely, kellhus was crafted, raised and trained to believe what he does, but this does not accurately reflect dunyain, hence the contradiction in his belief and the what has come black.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 21, 2015, 12:00:59 pm
Well, I think this is what you refer to:

Quote
In the effort to transform themselves into the perfect expression of the Logos, the Dûnyain have bent their entire existence to mastering the irrationalities that determine human thought: history, custom, and passion.

While it's kind of silly to think in these terms, their "mastering" of history is the repudiation of it.  They purposely ignore history, in order to attempt to be a-historical.

I have my doubts that this works though, even in the context of Earwa.
Well that's a convoluted rationalization.

More likely, kellhus was crafted, raised and trained to believe what he does, but this does not accurately reflect dunyain, hence the contradiction in his belief and the what has come black.

Well, it's certainly true that it is hard to know, since we have only one example of Dûnyain training.  Is Kellhus an average Dûnyain?  Exceptional?  Even greater than that?  And so, is his training the "usual?"  Or was he groomed both by and for more?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Four: The Warrior [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 30, 2015, 05:17:40 pm
Kellhus is a prodigy, even among the dunyain. Straight from the horses mouth - in an interview.

This doen't really answer the question though. As you say, we have one instance of POV training. All conclusion appear nearly equally likely.