The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:23 pm

Title: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:23 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Major world-building sperging ahead:

When reading the PON books, I wondered a bit about the technology level in Eärwa - not so much for the Three Seas, which seems to be at the level of Europe in the Early Middle Ages (makes sense, if humans were in the Bronze Age during the pre-Apocalypse years, and in the Classical period during Sejenus' time) - but rather about the more mysterious civilizations.

How far have the Nonmen advanced? We know they have some pretty stunning technologies, like that winding stair inside the Cil-Aujas mountain and the mathematically-perfect Barricades around the Ark. Since they're obviously more advanced than any humans, what other technological stuff might they have? What's their general technological level?

And what about the Dûnyain? Since the average Dûnyain dude is a coldly rational super-genius by human standards, one assumes they're even smarter than the Nonmen at inventing things and figuring out how things work. IIRC, Bakker only mentioned that Dûnyain steel is much better than any steel in the Three Seas, but that's pretty much it. But they must have developed much more. What other developments can they have made in Ishuäl?

Feel free to speculate away.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:29 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Auriga
How far have the Nonmen advanced? We know they have some pretty stunning technologies, like that winding stair inside the Cil-Aujas mountain and the mathematically-perfect Barricades around the Ark. Since they're obviously more advanced than any humans, what other technological stuff might they have? What's their general technological level?

Those would have to reflect philosophic and abstract progress, though, as its "technological" expression is sorcerous.

Kellhus makes the Seeing-Flame. Nonmen make Chorae. Their flying chariots?

Quote from: Auriga
And what about the Dûnyain? Since the average Dûnyain dude is a coldly rational super-genius by human standards, one assumes they're even smarter than the Nonmen at inventing things and figuring out how things work. IIRC, Bakker only mentioned that Dûnyain steel is much better than any steel in the Three Seas, but that's pretty much it. But they must have developed much more. What other developments can they have made in Ishuäl?

Few in Ishual. Its all about the improvements, the better ways of doing things, in the case of the Dunyain, neh?

Can't wait to see if Kellhus does anything with the Tekne.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:38 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
Those would have to reflect philosophic and abstract progress, though, as its "technological" expression is sorcerous.

Yeah. The Nonmen's "science" seems to blend sorcery with mathematics - the invention of the Gnosis, the Chorae, the hologram images in Cil-Aujas, the wall around Golgotterath which is made of endless angles (something like a space-filling curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-filling_curve) of nimil) that always redirect force. So their scientific progress is obviously expressed in both sorcery (the Gnosis) and in actual "hardware" (the nimil metal and such). One wonders what their written philosophy looks like? Something like Plato's?

Hell, they were even taught by the Inchoroi at one point.

Quote
Few in Ishual. Its all about the improvements, the better ways of doing things, in the case of the Dunyain, neh?

True, true. But then again, I can't imagine the Dûnyain choosing not to explore their mind's horizons and invent purely practical things, if they can. They probably don't need any large-scale high-tech in their safe haven Ishuäl, but they must have pretty advanced surgery - that neuro-puncturing stuff in the TWP flashback, for example.

The ancient Greeks invented stuff like steam engines and clockwork, just as toys, and never actually used them for practical stuff. I guess the closest parallel to that, in Bakker-world, would be the Nonmen.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:43 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm thinking we're going to see these things in Ishterebinth, Auriga.

I, too, wonder at the prevalence of sorcerous artifacts in the past and future...

Neuropuncture had an explicit purpose, neh? Practicality would be the mother of all Dunyain invention. What else would they need?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:48 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Auriga
IIRC, Bakker only mentioned that Dûnyain steel is much better than any steel in the Three Seas.

As long as "Three Seas" doesn't include Nonman Nimil, which is stronger (quoted in the collected sayings interview that curethan posted).


As far as Nonman technology, as with most fantasy, it would seem that magic tends to slow the progression of technological advancement, though in Earwa a bit less than other series. Even still, it doesn't seem that the Nonmen had too much advanced stuff, electricity or magnets for example, or any kind of engine. I tend to write this off as magic replacing the need for stuff like that.

However, with the Dunyain, who don't use magic, I'm not really sure why they don't have more technology. Could just be a product of geography. I'm no history buff so forgive me if I'm way wrong: Like the Native Americans to Europe when they first landed. Though both civilizations where around for, more or less, about the same amount of time Europe was much more technologically advanced. I attribute this to the fact that America had very little natural resources, like metals, that would have made technological advancements possible. (thats my own lame explanation, im sure there are other factors).

But hey, they got damascan steel right? Thats cool I suppose. They either found out metallurgic ways to make the steel better, or they realized that adding carbon black nanoparticles in certain amounts significantly enhances steel itself.

I imagine with very limited resources further limiting practical applications, all the theory in the world is worthless. If they could figure out the structure of atoms and theorize the energies involved in fusion/fission, it wouldn't mean a damn thing without some Uranium235 and plutonium (or in the case of fusion, huge lasers that smash them together).
Same thing with electromagnetism, or any other example you care to thing of.

If earth was just made up of elements before Zinc (lighter elements, no heavy metals or radioactive elements), it would be physically impossible to be in the technological age we are currently in.


Still though, the Nonmen and the Dunyain should have been able to make themselves some kind of engine. Maybe not an internal combustion engine, but at least a steam powered one.  They should have been able to come up with, at least, parts of the electromagnetic theory and found some way to make it useful.
What is Earwa 16th century Europe? Wikipedia says that the formalization of EM was around 1820. The dunyain could easily be a few hundred years advanced from the rest of society.

Even if not the Dunyain, the Nonmen where around for thousands and thousands of years before men. The breaking of the gates should have been like Ancient Eqypt invading some modern, or near modern, country today.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:53 pm
Quote from: Centurion
Well, there's obviously no gunpowder.  I suspect that a combination of restricted mineral resources in Earwa combined with the reality of magic has somewhat stunted technological growth (or technology as we think of technology). 

Nonmen: We know that the Nonmen have had a continuous (sort-of) civilization for well over two thousand years.  In spite of the wars between mansions they seem to have enjoyed a great deal of prosperity prior to the fall of the Ark.  Many of the Nonmen are highly intelligent, and this would suggest a perfect environment for technological advancement.  However, this does not seem to have happened.  There are references to their flying chariots, but when they faced Sil they seem to have relied heavily on conventional troop formations and the Quya.  It's possible, even likely, that technologies such as indoor plumbing existed, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the Nonmen possessed an industrial or electronic capacity.  It could be possible that Earwa is a planet with a severely limited supply of certain resources like sulfur and silicon.  I also have a personal theory that the existence of real magic (especially powerful magic) would naturally stunt technological growth.  Why waste all your time mining resources, inventing, and pushing the limits when you have people who can call down the wrath of the sun with a few words?  Furthermore, it could also be possible that the Nonman psyche is so fundamentally different from human psychology that they did not feel the same imperative to improve things which otherwise worked perfectly fine for them.  Ultimately, I suspect that what Nonman technology does exist (ex. flying chariots) probably works on a similar principle to the technology of the Iosian elves in the Iron Kingdoms. 

To be fair, between the womb plague and the First Apocalypse any civilization would have ground to a halt.  The remaining Intact Nonmen have been doing their own thing in Ishterebinth for thousands of years, and I think we're going to see some crazy stuff once Sorweel and company finally reach their destination.

Dunyain: It's hard to say with them.  Again, they have no gunpowder or advanced weapons of any kind (that we have seen), but their natural ability to process, comprehend, and build on theory would suggest that after two thousand years they would be pushing the limits of mathematics and science.  This again leads me to believe that there might be some deficiency in the physical environment which keeps the people of Earwa limited to pre-Industrial Revolution societies.  There's also the little problem of Dunyain not believing in magic...and I'm pretty sure that mistake has already turned around to bite them in the butt.

Inchoroi: They have lasers and advanced genetic technology.  When these "real world" technologies were pitted against the Nonmen they were almost evenly matched.  They also have a wrecked spaceship which is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.  Obviously, this means that Earwa exists in an alternate reality where Daleks got Time Lord technology and are using it to try and shut off the Outside, rendering them the supreme rulers of time and space.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:17:59 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Wilshire
But hey, they got damascan steel right? Thats cool I suppose. They either found out metallurgic ways to make the steel better, or they realized that adding carbon black nanoparticles in certain amounts significantly enhances steel itself.

Yeah, I figure that the "Dûnyain steel" is something akin to Damascus steel. It was the cutting-edge technology in medieval times, and IIRC the Damascus swords are still the best weapons forged by pre-modern means. So, yeah, the Dûnyain science would mainly be that type of stuff - taking pre-existing things and perfecting them.

Quote
Still though, the Nonmen and the Dunyain should have been able to make themselves some kind of engine. Maybe not an internal combustion engine, but at least a steam powered one.

Well, I did bring up the example of Ancient Greeks inventing a steam engine, but not actually using it (since they had plenty of slaves to do all the hard work). The same goes for the Nonmen - there's no real incentive for Nonmen to mass-produce steam engines and go industrial, since they already have Gnostic magic.

Bakker describes the Nonmen as having "a cuneiform script" at some point. This does seem a bit odd, since you'd think they were too advanced for that.

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They should have been able to come up with, at least, parts of the electromagnetic theory and found some way to make it useful.

This I agree with. The lodestone has been around for ages, so people knew about magnetism since the Dung Ages. And electroplating was discovered in medieval times. (Although the connection between magnetism and electricity wasn't made until the 1800s.)

Quote
Even if not the Dunyain, the Nonmen where around for thousands and thousands of years before men. The breaking of the gates should have been like Ancient Eqypt invading some modern, or near modern, country today.

The Breaking of the Gates was more like Hellenistic Greece being invaded by rock-throwing Stone Age savages. But the Nonmen were hardly a proper "country" at that point - they were already a dying race and lost their will to survive, so the incoming hordes of humans just overwhelmed the apathetic Nonmen with sheer numbers.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:18:05 pm
Quote from: Madness
You have forgotten that after nimil, Dunyain steel, the best iron in the Three Seas is Seluekaran (sp?) from Zeum :).
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:18:10 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
You have forgotten that after nimil, Dunyain steel, the best iron in the Three Seas is Seluekaran (sp?) from Zeum :).

Nimil is the Nonman metal, not the Dûnyain steel. I don't think nimil is steel at all, just Bakker's version of Tolkien's mithril.

Also, a quick gander at the Eärwa map tells us that Seleukara isn't in Zeum, but in the Fanim lands. A location pretty analogous to real-life Damascus, no?

(http://daelstorm.thegraveyard.org/maps/Prince%20of%20Nothing%20-%20Western%20Three%20Seas%20Map%20Colored.jpg)
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:18:18 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Astronomy, mathematics, and that kind of abstract knowledge seems to be pretty advanced, though.

The Mandate talk about algebra and geometry quite a bit, and the Nonmen invented a whole branch of sorcery based on math (the Gnosis). Akka also knows that the stars are distant suns, which he says is Inchoroi know-how that they'd recorded.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:18:24 pm
Quote from: Madness
Sorry - grammar issues?

nimil and Dunyain steel.

I stand corrected on the in Zuem :).

EDIT: Also, I think the analogy of Early Middle Age, Middle East cultures is a pretty striking analogy to Three Seas.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:18:29 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Damascan steel is pretty badass. Last I hear, even today researchers arn't 100% sure how they where able to make it and they cant reproduce it exactly.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:20:41 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Wilshire
Damascan steel is pretty badass. Last I hear, even today researchers arn't 100% sure how they where able to make it and they cant reproduce it exactly.

Just how did they make Damascus steel? The whole thing sounds fascinating to me, like those swords forged from crashed meteorites. I mean, even if we don't know the exact method, there must be a rough approximation of how they made these weapons. IIRC, it involved small doses of carbon, but the rest of the process is a total mystery to me.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:20:46 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Yeah carbon black is basically coal, but it naturally forms in the nanoscale, i.e made up of particles that are 1*10^-9 meters(thi sis unusual). Nanomaterials can significantly alter or enhance characteristics of the bulk material, if added in proper quantities (useally small amounts).

Straight up metallurgy couldn't replicate the damascan steel, and I know nothing about metal working so I can't say anything about that. What I do know is that they have found  small amounts of carbon black in the steel (or it may be that this is their best guess). It makes it much harder than regular steel, but if you add to much the sword becomes too brittle, and if it isnt distributed uniformly then it won't work correctly. As you might guess, mixing anything into molten steel would probably be difficult.

The bizarre effects of nanoparticle additives has been known for quite some time (though the reason why have only been more recently discovered).

An excerpt from a paper I wrote for class
spoiler tagged for space
(click to show/hide)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_Cup)

I always thought that the lycurgus cup was an entertaining example of historical use of nanoparticles.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:20:51 pm
Quote from: Auriga
The Nonman mansions in their heyday must have been cool as hell. Below are some examples of Nonman technology that we see in the books.

Instead of steam or electric power, they use enslaved souls (by means of sorcery) as an infinite power source in their engines:

Quote
...the Great Gate of Wheels. The portal that was a lock, and the lock that was a portal.
The entrance to the Coffers.
To mundane eyes it was a wonder of scale and machination. To arcane eyes it was nothing less than a miracle of interlocking deformities: enormous incantation wheels carved from milk-white marble, turning through a frame of bronze set with constellations of faces carved of black diorite, instilled with animata - or proxies, as they called them - enslaved souls, whose only purpose was to complete the circuit between watcher and watched that was the foundation of all reality, sorcerous or not. So hideous was the Mark of the thing, so metaphysically disfigured, that bile bubbled to the back of his throat whenever he found himself before it.
Quya magic. Deeper than deep.
Seswatha paused on the stair, warred with his stomach. He looked down and for some reason felt no surprise, no alarm, to see that the golden map-case had become an infant's inert form. Blue and grey. Mottled with black bruising, as if it had perished while lying on its face.

Artworks that have a "hologram" visual effect on the human eye:

Quote
Two wolves towered before them, standing like men to either side of an unbarred portal, eyes bulging, tongues lolling. The contrast was dramatic. Gone was the intricacy of the underworld road, replaced by a more ancient, more totemic sensibility. Each wolf was three wolves, or the same wolf at three different times, the graven heads warped into three distinct postures, their expressions ranging from sorrow to savagery, as if the ancient artisans had rendered an entire animal existence in a single moment of stone.

Astronomy that is fairly advanced for the time, since they had Inchoroi know-how:

Quote
“Do you think they speak our future, Akka? The stars?”
A momentary pause. “No.”
“Why?”
“The Nonmen believe the sky is endlessly empty, an infinite void.”
“Empty? How could that be?”
“Even more, they think the stars are faraway suns.”
“How could they believe such a thing?” she asked. “The sun moves in circles about the world. The stars move in circles about the Nail.” The thought struck her that the Nail of Heaven itself might be another world, one with a thousand thousand suns. Such a sky that would be!
Achamian shrugged. “Supposedly that’s what the Inchoroi told them. They sailed here from stars that were suns.”

An enormous spiral stair inside a mountain, that goes from the mountaintop all the way down to the deepest underworld:

Quote
"Cleric called it the Screw," Galian says hoarsely, staring upward like all the others. He looks different with days of growth across his jaw and chin, less like the cynical wit and more like his brothers. "The Great Medial Screw."

They stand on a terrace set in curved walls that wrap out through the vagaries of Achamian's light to form a perfect cylinder, one that soars as far as any of them can see, terminating in a point of shining white. Elongated glyphs band the surface, some as tall as a man, others engraved in panels no larger than a hand. A stair ascends from the terrace, as broad as a Galeoth wain, winding in helical loops into the obscurity above. Glittering water threads the open air, falling from unguessed heights into the pool that forms a mirror-black plate four lengths below the terrace. For a vertiginous moment, Mimara has the impression of staring up from the bottom of an inconceivable well, as though she were no more than a mite, waiting for gods to draw water. It seems impossible that this shaft runs the entire height of the mountain, that a single work can link the heavens to the hell at their feet.

A wall shaped like a space-filling curve, that deflects all force directed against it, and can only be broken by a force that doesn't occupy space:

Quote
“They are called the Barricades,” the Nonman says. “The Artisan himself fashioned them.“
The Man gazes in wonder at the configurations of nimil and light. “So that none might enter…” he murmurs.
Cet’ingira lowers his porcelain face in assent. “So that none might enter.”
Shaeönanra almost stumbles, so dazzling is the sunlight across the immense curvatures of gold, so deep is the pitch of the surrounding fall.

“The Barricades,” he continues. “They fold…intervals. Somehow the Artisan found a way to pinch emptiness into angles. This was why no dispensation of sheer force could batter them down. In a sense, everything you and my predecessors threw at it simply… missed."
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:01 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I'll give you the Coffers door, that is sweet.

The Medial screw is just a miracle of slave labor, see pyramids.
Astronomy wasn't their own findings, it was the Inchoroi, so they don't have much that was special.
Art, while cool, doesn't make me think of technology.

As for the wall thing.... its just confusing, can't really tell what it is or isn't, more magic I suppose.

Like I said originally, and you also brought up, magic more or less takes the place of technology, the Coffers entrance is a great example of that.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:05 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
also note the glyphs on the medial screw.  reminds me of the sorcerous runes around Kellhus' seeing flame.

So just what does that say about Inri Sejenus ascending to the Nail of Heaven at the peak of a nonman mansion?  Was he standing on a similar screw?

Is Esmenet right that the Nail of Heaven is a GALAXY?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:11 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Wasn't the inside of the Ark also inscribed with innumerable runes, or am I remembering something wrong?

Regardless, anything covered in runes has got to be some kind of magical. It always reminds me of the chorae (or Iyokus and his summoning circle), but I'm sure there are many more uses for covering rooms or objects in fancy magical runes. I'd like to know what.




Wondering if the whore's shell is covered in tiny runes?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:16 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Kellhus' mobile campfire is covered in choric (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/choric) script iirc.
Which is a weird adjective to use, but I guesss it makes sense considering sorcerers sing.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:26 pm
Quote from: Madness
The ark is described as covered in "alien filigree," Wilshire, which amounts to the same.

I've often wondered at the past and future prevalence of sorcerous objects. Is there something more powerful than Chorae?

"The shining bronze sheets were gone - the Skutiri. In Seswatha's day they had ringed the Turret's base, nine thousand, nine-hundred, and ninety-nine of them, each taller than a man, and each scored with innumerable lines of sorcerous script" (WLW, p848).
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:30 pm
Quote from: Meyna
More on Damascus steel here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Blacksmith/comments/16t49n/damascus_steel_theories/

The top reply is as entertaining as it is enlightening.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:34 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
That was hilarious, and, assuming this guy is right i, that is about what I thought. So basically the metal ores they found in Damascus just happened to have the proper amount of carbon black "impurities" to make their swords super badass. sweet.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:39 pm
Quote from: Auriga
To be honest, I get these high-tech (well, the sorcerous version of high-tech) vibes from the Nonmen mainly because of the words Bakker uses to describe them. Their magic involves spells called "parabolas" and "bisecting planes". From skimming over my e-book of TJE, I saw that Cil-Aujas has places called things like "Repositorium" and "Fifth Anterograde Gate". This word choice just gives the reader a vibe of a very complex civilization. In a way, it's much like Tolkien who consciously uses older Germanic words and as few Latin words as possible, as a way of setting the mood.

I don't think Bakker would describe the Thunyeri, for example, as people who have theorems and anterograde gates.

(That being said, I don't think the Nonmen are that much higher than the rest of Eärwa in their technology level, apart from the sorcery department. To use the Tolkien parallel again, the Nonmen would be roughly like the Numenoreans/Gondorians compared to the rest of Middle-Earth's humanity.)
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:45 pm
Quote from: Madness
Both those top comments were awesome, Meyna. Thanks for that.

I always, always wanted to try making swords. And clearly, learn to fight with them.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:49 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Whoa, missed something in my own post:

Quote from: Auriga
Cil-Aujas has places called things like "Repositorium" and "Fifth Anterograde Gate"

I just googled the word "anterograde" and got this, as the first result:

Quote
Anterograde Amnesia
Anterograde amnesia is a loss of the ability to create new memories after the event that caused the amnesia, leading to a partial or complete inability to recall the recent past, while often traumatic long-term memories from before the event remain intact. This is in contrast to retrograde amnesia, where most memories created prior to the event are lost while new memories can still be created. Both can occur together in the same patient. To a large degree, anterograde amnesia remains a mysterious ailment because the precise mechanism of storing memories is not yet well understood.

Quite subtle, Bakker.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:21:55 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol.

It'd be interesting if Nonmen started defining their physical boundaries within smaller and smaller contexts based on their history of continuing loss.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:00 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
It'd be interesting if Nonmen started defining their physical boundaries within smaller and smaller contexts based on their history of continuing loss.

It really is an interesting idea. TJE also mentioned how Akka notices that the Nonman artworks and architecture in pre-amnesia times are very different from those in post-amnesia times.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:06 pm
Quote from: Madness
+1. Yeah, I liked that too - though I found it as a mark of obsessive documentation, whether that contrasts what you might be saying. They wanted their expressions to capture more and more of the things they were forgetting.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:26 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
though I found it as a mark of obsessive documentation, whether that contrasts what you might be saying. They wanted their expressions to capture more and more of the things they were forgetting.
Yeah. It doesn't exactly contrast with what I said, since it's still artwork that reflects their metal state (in this case, amnesia). I dunno if the "Anterograde Gate" thing was a reference to Nonman culture, or if it (more likely) was just a shout-out to readers familiar with the terminology of mental disorders.

I do wonder what sort of artwork and technology exists in Ishterebinth...they must have kept themselves really busy all this time, especially with dull monotonous work, to prevent themselves from going Erratic. Maybe by repeatedly polishing jewels or improving swords, for years and years. We know that Cil-Aujas, during the last days, had a population of human slaves (the Emwama) whom the Nonmen presumably used as "memory carriers" (akin to how Cleric uses the Captain to stay somewhat in reality). I assume that Ishterebinth still has human slaves, to fill this role. 

(And also because I can't really imagine Nonmen picking up trash and cleaning stables.)
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:32 pm
Quote from: Madness
That's actually a decent hypotheses; they can't do anything more emotionally intense than what they've already been through, lest they crowd out the good memories.

I want one of those swords :D!
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:38 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Auriga
Maybe by repeatedly polishing jewels or improving swords, for years and years.


haha yes exactly. me and madness have been down this line of thought many times.... Imagine how shiny a rock would be after polishing it for thousands of years so as to not fill up your memory banks with new memories.

Anyone read Shutter Island (or watched it I guess, though I never saw the movie)? Ending spoilers.
(click to show/hide)

Or The Truman Show? again ending spoilers, but really at this point if you haven't seen it you never will.
(click to show/hide)


Take those ideas and then:
In order for the Nonmen to remain sane, perhaps they have constructed elaborate "plays" that they relive over and over again. Everyone has a role to play, and everything happens the same way every day, year in, year out. Maybe the play takes 10 years to act out, or longer, but once it is done, it all starts over. No variation. Maybe this would let them stack up memories, compress them all into a zip file and save precious space in their memories. By no longer forming "new" memories, it would kind of be like reliving your old memories over and over, so no new information is saved, letting them keep some room for new memories and even keeping their old memories from being erased.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:44 pm
Quote from: Madness
Wow... Viramsata metaphor. Nice, Wilshire.

I still hope for the Hypobolic Time Chamber ;).
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:49 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Wilshire
In order for the Nonmen to remain sane, perhaps they have constructed elaborate "plays" that they relive over and over again. Everyone has a role to play, and everything happens the same way every day, year in, year out. Maybe the play takes 10 years to act out, or longer, but once it is done, it all starts over. No variation. Maybe this would let them stack up memories, compress them all into a zip file and save precious space in their memories. By no longer forming "new" memories, it would kind of be like reliving your old memories over and over, so no new information is saved, letting them keep some room for new memories and even keeping their old memories from being erased.

This is an interesting idea. I hadn't really thought of that, the Nonmen living in a constructed reality of their own that lets them experience time more slowly and not suffer a memory overload. Acting out the same predictable rituals, year after year. Or maybe they use an elaborate system of "triggers" connected to specific memories - for example, eating that particular food on this particular day of the month, for centuries and centuries. Short-term memories are less consolidated than long-term memories, they haven't yet "sunk in" as deep, so the Nonmen can probably manipulate their immediate memories. Or using sorcery to suspend themselves in time, while the years fly past outside.

And, then again, what Madness referred to:

"Have you heard of a game played in southern Nilnamesh, a game called viramsata, or 'many-breaths'?"
"No."
''Across the plains surrounding the city of Invishi, the ruling caste-nobles are very remote, very effete. The narcotics they cultivate assure them of the obedience of their populations. Over the centuries they have elaborated jnan to the point where it has eclipsed their old faiths. Entire lives are spent in what we would call gossip. But viramsata is far different from the rumours of the court or the clucking of harem eunuchs— far more. The players of viramsata have made games of truth. They tell lies about who said what to whom, about who makes love to whomever, and so on. They do this continually, and what is more, they are at pains to act out the lies told by others, especially when they are elegant, so they might make them true. And so it goes from tongue to lip to tongue, until no distinction remains between what is a lie and what is true.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:22:56 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Yeah I didn't notice the viramsata connection until I was done. Its kind of a new idea, but really just a more elaborate way to say "polishing stones".

Also, if anyone played Kingdoms of Amalur, the idea is similar to the ... elves i think? They are an immortal race (I think... now I can't remember) who have been playing out their lives in a similar fashion. Everyone has an archetype and a role to play, and these sagas that they create are replayed through the centuries. Just another example that was similar, that I didn't think of before.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:03 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Part of the reason why I find the Nonman culture so fascinating is that they're so utterly alien to all human civilizations. They have a very old and venerable high civilization, but it's so interestingly bizarre and remote. Tolkien's Elves have a vaguely similar quality, although they're far more humanlike and clearly based on the light-elves from Norse mythology.

The TTT appendix tells us that:

Quote
Cûnuroi civilization was ancient even before these words were carved into the Tusk. While the Halaroi, Men, wandered the world dressed in skins and wielding weapons of stone, the Cûnuroi had invented writing and mathematics, astronomy and geometry, sorcery and philosophy.

I can't really see the cave-dwelling subterranean Nonmen as a race of astronomers, so I wonder what Nonman astronomy (pre-Inchoroi, obviously) was like. The idea of Nonman philosophy also sounds curious - Platonism probably suits them most, out of all existing philosophical schools, but Bakker (himself a well-versed guy in this subject) might go for something totally different make their philosophy entirely alien.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:09 pm
Quote from: Madness
The Nonmen had Mystery Schools... drugs, sex, and bodily transcendence, seem right up their alley.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:13 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
The Nonmen had Mystery Schools... drugs, sex, and bodily transcendence, seem right up their alley.
The Nonmen always seemed rather sexless and ascetic to me, for some reason. (And their sexuality is almost always linked with trauma or insanity). They're such gloomy and melancholic figures, that it's hard to imagine that sex-and-drugs rituals are their kind of thing. In many ways, I see their religious beliefs and rituals (or whatever you call it) as closer to the rigid and coldly intellectual Apollonian paganism than to the "organic" Dionysian paganism with its orgies and ecstasy cults.

(Look at their sorcery, for instance. The Gnosis is all about mathematical perfection and rigid intellect, unlike the "organic" Anagogis that humans invented.)
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:18 pm
Quote from: Madness
I think your perspective might be skewed greatly by the remnants of their species. Only males exist, neh? They must have experienced great and terrible love as well?

Cleric struck me as very sensual with Mimara in WLW.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:23 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
I think your perspective might be skewed greatly by the remnants of their species. Only males exist, neh? They must have experienced great and terrible love as well?
Of course I'm skewed by the remnants of the species, since that's all of the species that we readers have seen. That said, even without the amnesia and overall insanity that current Nonmen have (which I didn't count when making the last post), they seem to be a pretty upright and intellectual-oriented species just based on what we've seen of their pre-Inchoroi culture.

Obviously, this is just me speculating. Your ideas are just as valid as mine.

Quote
Cleric struck me as very sensual with Mimara in WLW.
A real player, that Cleric.

"You tremble," she whispers, resisting the urge to glance at the pouch. "Do you want me? Do you want to…" She swallows. "To take me?"
He draws away his arms, stares down into his palms. Beyond him, clouds pile like flotsam beneath the stars. Lightning scorches the plains a barren white. She glimpses land piling atop land, scabbed edges, woollen reaches. "I want to…" he says.
"Yes?"
He lifts his eyes as if drawing them against weighted threads. "I… I want to… to strangle you… to split you with my-" His breath catches. Murder floats in the sorrow of his gaze. He speaks like someone marooned in a stranger's soul. "I want to hear you shriek."
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:35 pm
Quote from: Madness
I hope I never come off as dismissive, Auriga. Ideas from minds not mine own are why I am here ;). EDIT: Perhaps, in thinking about my words, I was simply trying to communicate that the females did exist at some point and so we must account for the consequences of that history.

Bakker's mentioned that Nonmen passions are like human in kind but excessive in expression. There are also thoughts of sensory differences. Nin'sariccas asks to touch Kellhus. Perhaps, they have a greater breadth of tactile experience.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:39 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Can't find any other place to put this, but since my thread here is about Nonman technology and society anyways, I'll post it here.

IThe visual similarity of the Nonmen and the god-aliens in "Prometheus" has already been written about plenty, but their culture seems to be pretty similar as well. I caught this interesting little bit when re-watching "Prometheus" yesterday. In the TTT appendix, we learn that the Nonmen wrote with cuneiform symbols (the Rape of Omindalea resulted in the Nonmen being kicked out of Sauglish, and "their cuneiform script" being outlawed). This is the written language of the god-aliens:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-H9i_2T8q-ng/T3ws61Psz8I/AAAAAAAABCk/WiL82xm-pq0/s640/Prometheus+sumerian+1.jpg)

(It's obviously Sumerian-inspired, and I guess that both Bakker and Ridley Scott picked it because it just screams "long-lost ancient civilization.")
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:45 pm
Quote from: Madness
I think the idea is that proto-civilization, alien or divine, are easy tropes - not necessarily used, or overused, until the past ten years and the 2012 hype.

Thus, cuneiform the oldest discovered human text is the logical link between us and the Other, showcasing inherent ideas of progression too, neh?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:49 pm
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Madness
I think the idea is that proto-civilization, alien or divine, are easy tropes - not necessarily used, or overused, until the past ten years and the 2012 hype.

Thus, cuneiform the oldest discovered human text is the logical link between us and the Other, showcasing inherent ideas of progression too, neh?

It is attractive to put forth the idea that we might be able to pinpoint one moment in history and take it as our "arrival of the Monolith" moment. That scene in 2001 is so timeless because it speaks to our desire to know where and when we became "we".
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:54 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol, this is why I loved Hyperion Cantos so much - the first two anyways. Probably missed some world-building in the Endymion.

The Arrival of the Monolith... a powerful motif indeed, Meyna.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:23:59 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness

The Arrival of the Monolith... a powerful motif indeed, Meyna.

Good band name imo.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:04 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol, you play anything? I'm always down to try my hand at creation.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:09 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
I think the idea is that proto-civilization, alien or divine, are easy tropes - not necessarily used, or overused, until the past ten years and the 2012 hype.

Quote
Thus, cuneiform the oldest discovered human text is the logical link between us and the Other, showcasing inherent ideas of progression too, neh?
Yep. Something like cuneiform is both familiar to us (written language is only used by humans, so the writer must be vaguely similar to us), while also distinctly alien (the cuneiform script looks "weird" to us and doesn't resemble any European alphabets or East-Asian scripts).

It's indeed the logical link between us and That Which Came Before, making cuneiform a fitting script for both the Nonmen and the creator aliens in "Prometheus".
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:15 pm
Quote from: Auriga
To get back to topic:

Has anyone else noticed how static the Three Seas are, technologically? It's obviously not as bad as in the ASOIAF books, but it's still there - the Apocalypse happened nearly two thousand years before the events in the PON books, yet the civilization of the Three Seas has seen very little change. There's some mentions of Eärwa being in a Bronze Age before and during the Apocalypse, but not much else. The Nonmen have been a dead civilization since the Womb-Plague, and the Scylvendi have their religious reasons for shunning all outlander influences, but the Three Seas nations should've changed more over the ages.

(In fact, the bronze aside, the Ancient North seems to have been more advanced than the Three Seas in many ways. They obviously had better sorcery (the Gnosis) and much better technology (Nonman-influenced machinery that runs on enslaved souls instead of fuel) than the current human nations. Even all the much-quoted philosophers in Bakker-world are from antiquity. We definitely get the feeling that pre-Apocalypse was the "Classical world", while the era of PON is a "medieval" era.)

It also strikes me as weird that Kellhus' empire hasn't seen any technological progress. Kellhus is a superhuman analytical genius, so he's definitely able to spark a Golden Age of science if he wants to. But he doesn't. Things remain the same, more or less (with the only exception of women's rights progressing). We don't see any better weaponry, better technology, or even any impressive new architecture to the god-king. As far as the Average Akka is concerned, nothing has changed since the Ikurei years.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:33 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Auriga
Yep. Something like cuneiform is both familiar to us (written language is only used by humans, so the writer must be vaguely similar to us), while also distinctly alien (the cuneiform script looks "weird" to us and doesn't resemble any European alphabets or East-Asian scripts).

It's indeed the logical link between us and That Which Came Before, making cuneiform a fitting script for both the Nonmen and the creator aliens in "Prometheus".

+1 - like where your head is at :).

To your latest - always just trying to paint a broad horizon with caveat thoughts:

Bakker suggested on Zombie Three-Seas that Nonmen Civilization was apparently declining even before the Fall - remember too that the Womb-Plague happens possibly as late as three hundred, four hundred years after the Fall depending on how old Cu'jara Cinmoi is at the time (as he grows old before Nin'janjin returns with the promise of immortality).

I always gauged the Breaking of the Gates at somewhere around Mesopotamia or the Early Dynastic Period of Egypt - Egypt is actually a decent cultural mirror for Earwa as many don't realize the Egyptians were practicing archeologists, studying themselves by the latter years of their ascendency. While the Crusades are an obvious reflection of the Holy War (specifically the Second Crusade, I believe), I don't think that Three-Seas Earwa actually ranks that late in the Medieval Period but closer to the Declining Roman Empire (the Nansur?)?

What do you think?

Kellhus has modified the Engines of War, created new sorcerous objects, rebuilt the Andiamine Palace to include the Mirrored Labyrinth and the Truth Room (an upside-down replica of a Ziggurat).

I think, our intuitions of these changes is probably skewed by the Layers of Revelation. We might encounter random mechanical machines next book that were allegedly always there.

Also, in line with this thinking, Kellhus can skip a couple thousands years of scientific inquiry by simply traveling to Golgotterath, right? And there is the simple, yet demanding, effort he must exert in conditioning Clockwork Earwa - probably not a simple 9 - 5 ;)?

As I said, just thoughts to drop in the bucket.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:40 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
Bakker suggested on Zombie Three-Seas that Nonmen Civilization was apparently declining even before the Fall - remember too that the Womb-Plague happens possibly as late as three hundred, four hundred years after the Fall depending on how old Cu'jara Cinmoi is at the time (as he grows old before Nin'janjin returns with the promise of immortality).
Interesting. I didn't know it was declining even before their women got wiped out. Still, it makes sense that the Nonmen are stuck in the same undead state ever since then. The human nations, not so much.

Quote
I always gauged the Breaking of the Gates at somewhere around Mesopotamia or the Early Dynastic Period of Egypt - Egypt is actually a decent cultural mirror for Earwa as many don't realize the Egyptians were practicing archeologists, studying themselves by the latter years of their ascendency.
Good comparison, but aren't the Nonmen the counterpart of Sumerians/Mesopotamians/Egyptians in that world? The ancient pre-Apocalypse human civilizations are more like the counterpart of the Ancient Greeks. At least, this is how it feels to me.

I had no idea the Egyptians were studying themselves. At which point did "New Ancient Egypt" fall so far from "Old Ancient Egypt" that it started studying its own history. (It was definitely dead by the time Cleopatra's ancestors conquered it, but a lot of slow decline must have taken place before.)

Quote
While the Crusades are an obvious reflection of the Holy War (specifically the Second Crusade, I believe), I don't think that Three-Seas Earwa actually ranks that late in the Medieval Period but closer to the Declining Roman Empire (the Nansur?)
The Holy War = the First Crusade.

The Nansur aren't the original Roman Empire, but the Byzantine Empire in its declining stages (around same time as the Crusades).

Quote
Kellhus has modified the Engines of War, created new sorcerous objects, rebuilt the Andiamine Palace to include the Mirrored Labyrinth and the Truth Room (an upside-down replica of a Ziggurat).
I can't remember anything about war engines being modified by Kellhus. A quick search for "engines" in my PDF file of TJE doesn't turn up anything.

New sorcerous objects - okay, I'll give you that one. He did create a sorcerous fire that lets him spy on people, IIRC. This is pretty cool, but it's still just one thing and doesn't feel quite enough. You may be right, and we'll only hear about Kellhus' sorcerous superweapons when they're actually used.   

The Andiamine palace being rebuilt with a labyrinth is also cool, but it's hardly a big invention. Plus it's one of those secretive and sneaky things that benefit Kellhus but don't make any "splash" in the bigger picture - again, as far as the average dude can see, everything's the same as in the Ikurei era. (It's not like he built a new Palace of the Aspect-Emperor with his super-calculating skill, that makes every other building look like a molehill, so that people can see and marvel at their god-king's power. The new Kellhusian era doesn't have any architectural landmarks at all.) 

Quote
Also, in line with this thinking, Kellhus can skip a couple thousands years of scientific inquiry by simply traveling to Golgotterath, right?
Obviously. I wasn't really talking about Kellhus himself, though, since the dude's already a living demigod. More like "why does his army bother dragging along siege towers, when he could've invented siege weapons to knock down Sakarpus' walls." Or maybe like "why doesn't this genius invent ships with metal hulls, so the Great Ordeal can sail up to the northern lands instead of going by foot and getting raped by Sranc."
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:46 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol. Love it, Auriga.

Quote from: Auriga
Good comparison, but aren't the Nonmen the counterpart of Sumerians/Mesopotamians/Egyptians in that world? The ancient pre-Apocalypse human civilizations are more like the counterpart of the Ancient Greeks. At least, this is how it feels to me.

I had no idea the Egyptians were studying themselves. At which point did "New Ancient Egypt" fall so far from "Old Ancient Egypt" that it started studying its own history. (It was definitely dead by the time Cleopatra's ancestors conquered it, but a lot of slow decline must have taken place before.)

See I definitely feel like the Nonmen are supposed to evoke those enigmatic proto-civilizations (Atlantis) or ancient aliens (Annunaki, Nephelim) rather than ancient human civilizations.

As for the Egypt question... we can't really answer it all too well. The lectures and scholarly accounts I've been exposed to suggest as early as 2500 BCE, Old Kingdom, First Intermediate Period, and definitley after - it all depends on how accurate our understanding of Early Dynastic and pre-Early Dynastic period are in the first place.

Quote from: Auriga
The Holy War = the First Crusade.

The Nansur aren't the original Roman Empire, but the Byzantine Empire in its declining stages (around same time as the Crusades).

I was just scouring Zombie Three Seas and I came across the same thoughts... Now I'm wondering why and when I decided Second Crusade was more fitting. Is there any evidence that Bakker is exploiting associations across all the Crusades?

Quote from: Auriga
I can't remember anything about war engines being modified by Kellhus. A quick search for "engines" in my PDF file of TJE doesn't turn up anything.

Yeah, sorry, I like titles.

Kellhus modifies siege instruments before Caraskand, designing both towers - complete novelties to Proyas. Also, its mentioned that he designed the fourteen towers of the Ordeal.

Lol, Bakker is notorious for these one off sentences that sum little things like this up and are impossible to find later. Sorweel's perspective, TJE?

Quote from: Auriga
The Andiamine palace being rebuilt with a labyrinth is also cool, but it's hardly a big invention. Plus it's one of those secretive and sneaky things that benefit Kellhus but don't make any "splash" in the bigger picture - again, as far as the average dude can see, everything's the same as in the Ikurei era. (It's not like he built a new Palace of the Aspect-Emperor with his super-calculating skill, that makes every other building look like a molehill, so that people can see and marvel at their god-king's power. The new Kellhusian era doesn't have any architectural landmarks at all.)

Made a splash to me - Esmenet recalls Kellhus having cycles of slaves and workers killed to maintain the secret of the Labyrinth.

Again, priority. It takes alot of manpower to build Architectural Landmark... why fashion Dune-like palaces when it detracts from the war effort?

Quote from: Auriga
New sorcerous objects - okay, I'll give you that one. He did create a sorcerous fire that lets him spy on people, IIRC. This is pretty cool, but it's still just one thing and doesn't feel quite enough. You may be right, and we'll only hear about Kellhus' sorcerous superweapons when they're actually used.

Pretty sure TUC is just going to have us dropping jaws all over - what?! They have that? He can do that? They have that?!

Quote from: Auriga
More like "why does his army bother dragging along siege towers, when he could've invented siege weapons to knock down Sakarpus' walls." Or maybe like "why doesn't this genius invent ships with metal hulls, so the Great Ordeal can sail up to the northern lands instead of going by foot and getting raped by Sranc."

Hmm... again, how much time can Kellhus personally devote to these ambitions... I mean, if he wasn't dependent on mass human society for various reasons, he would just walk away from the Three-Seas and spend all his time doing whatever he wanted?

Also, sorcery makes a difference... For instance, I think Kellhus himself blows some holes in the walls at Sakarpus. Siege warfare technology, rather than being primitive, seems non-existent in Earwa? I wonder if the Inrithi made siege weapons in the Scholastic Wars...
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:53 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
See I definitely feel like the Nonmen are supposed to evoke those enigmatic proto-civilizations (Atlantis) or ancient aliens (Annunaki, Nephelim) rather than ancient human civilizations.
That too. I also thought of the Nephilim half-humans, the Annunaki, the Titans, and other demi-god aliens. But it's also obvious that Bakker has also borrowed from ancient human civilizations, at least with the external trappings of the Nonmen's culture (war chariots like Egyptians, cuneiform writing like Sumerians, etc.)

And yes, I know that Shigek is supposed to be Egypt, and the Ancient North is supposed to evoke Mesopotamia with its bizarro Sumerian-Germanic language.

Quote
As for the Egypt question... we can't really answer it all too well. The lectures and scholarly accounts I've been exposed to suggest as early as 2500 BCE, Old Kingdom, First Intermediate Period, and definitley after - it all depends on how accurate our understanding of Early Dynastic and pre-Early Dynastic period are in the first place.
Thanks for that. I find this history-about-history pretty fascinating.

Quote
Kellhus modifies siege instruments before Caraskand, designing both towers - complete novelties to Proyas. Also, its mentioned that he designed the fourteen towers of the Ordeal.
Hmm, didn't notice that part. You mean Shimeh, though?

Quote
Lol, Bakker is notorious for these one off sentences that sum little things like this up and are impossible to find later. Sorweel's perspective, TJE?
Yep, it's Sorweel's chapter when he sees the siege towers coming.

And yeah, Bakker's use of little throw-away sentences for worldbuilding is really weird. Sometimes, really big things have always been there, but everyone takes them for granted and they're just mentioned in a convo maybe once or twice. It's realistic, but for the average reader it can get pretty mind-boggling. For example, this part in WLW:

The White-Luck Warrior:"Kellhus had explained nations and polities to her, how they worked like the Cironji automata so prized by the more fashionable caste-nobility. "All states are raised upon the backs of men," he had told her after the final capitulation of High Ainon."
Me: They have robots? Wat.

(These automata are never mentioned again, ever.)

Quote
Made a splash to me - Esmenet recalls Kellhus having cycles of slaves and workers killed to maintain the secret of the Labyrinth. Again, priority. It takes alot of manpower to build Architectural Landmark... why fashion Dune-like palaces when it detracts from the war effort?
Slaughtering thousands to keep a labyrinth secret isn't that much more labor-saving than having those same people build a palace. Anyways, I'm not being anal about buildings and monuments in particular, just that this new Kellhusian age seems to lack any physical landmarks. There's no real "symbol of the new era".

Quote
Hmm... again, how much time can Kellhus personally devote to these ambitions... I mean, if he wasn't dependent on mass human society for various reasons, he would just walk away from the Three-Seas and spend all his time doing whatever he wanted?
You're probably right there.

Quote
Also, sorcery makes a difference... For instance, I think Kellhus himself blows some holes in the walls at Sakarpus. Siege warfare technology, rather than being primitive, seems non-existent in Earwa?
Catapults and battering rams and siege towers are used plenty in the Holy War (how did you miss this?), in almost every battle, especially when the Scarlet Spires are on strike. The siege technology seems very "High Middle Ages" to me.

The Sauglish flashback in TJE also shows the ancient Norsirai using massive siege-crossbows as flak artillery to shoot down dragons. I imagine the Norsirai used both siege engines and sorcery to take cities - one of the spells that takes down Wutteat in the fifth book is (*copy-pastes from e-book*) "the Noviratic Spike, a Gnostic War-Cant contrived to batter through great city gates".
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:24:59 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I think a lot of technology swims around at similar development levels until there's a cascade of catalysts that feed on each other in a positive reinforcement cycles that lead to technological development/progress.  Shouldn't China have a couple millenia head start on westerners, tech wise?  Shouldn't the Arabic world, with the numerals, be way ahead of the rest of Europe with their head start in mathematics? 

In other words, there are sort of naturally occurring upper bounds to technology levels that are due to deficiencies in human socialization or custom, the upper bound is defined by cultural restraints rather than what a simple linear progression would suggest.

For instance, there's no Leonardo da Vinci without Visaleus, the revolution in Renaissance art starts (with other contributing factors) with the doctors who partnered with artists to get a better understanding of human anatomy (often through grave robbing and illegal exhumation of corpses for dissection, for which they risked death).  The establishment of the university systems (an evolution from direction patronage) particularly in Jena (and elsewhere in Europe) and the institution of a publish or perish system of evaluation and promotion also helped (an enormous cultural change from trade secrets to open source information, no longer did you have genius knowledge or revolutionary insight dying with the person who thought it up).  These sort of events are not in isolation, and shouldn't be taken that way, rather the five-six hundred years preceding the present, primarily in western Europe, had a unique confluence of events that fed into a virtuous cycle of progress that shattered the culturally instituted upper bounds on technological progress.

Earwa has never had these virtuous cycles of progress occur outside of the Nonman tutelage, they've either been cut off culturally, or impossible to occur given the cultures involved.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:05 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Good point, Lockesnow. I hadn't thought of that before (although, being a reader of Spengler, I should've thought of it. Each civilization has its self-contained life cycle, and there's no such thing as linear progress for everyone). Eärwa is still very much a medieval society, with a clear "glass ceiling" for how much scientific progress is allowed.

Anyways, I started this thread mostly out of nerdish interest and curiosity in what kind of science exists (or could potentially exist) in Bakker's world. This is just brainstorming, a way of mental masturbation really.

Still, I'd like to hear more suggestions (for example - "how do the Three Seas measure time?" or "what other soul-fueled engines could the Nonmen have used"?) Scouring the books for tiny details isn't really necessary, think of this as semi-fanfiction instead. Let your imaginations run free. Speculate as much as you like.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:10 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Auriga
Me: They have robots? Wat.
Meh. The Greeks certainly had complex mechanical devices at least as far back as the 3rd century BC (and Pindar described things that might have been humanoid automata another couple of centuries before that), and there is some evidence that Chinese engineers could create similar automata as early as c.1000 BC. The Arabs had invented programmable mechanical musicians by the 13th century AD.

Cironj being an island famous for its automata would perhaps make it an analogue for the real world's Rhodes, which apparently had that reputation in the Hellenistic period.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:15 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Duskweaver
Meh. The Greeks certainly had complex mechanical devices at least as far back as the 3rd century BC (and Pindar described things that might have been humanoid automata another couple of centuries before that), and there is some evidence that Chinese engineers could create similar automata as early as c.1000 BC.
Didn't the ancient Greeks invent a machine (for calculating the seasons, IIRC) that was the prototype of an analog computer? I dunno how far they got in developing mechanical devices - IIRC, they did have animatronic statues and some sort of steam-engine prototype. I haven't heard of Chinese automata, but then again, I'm very hazy on Chinese history.

Quote
The Arabs had invented programmable mechanical musicians by the 13th century AD.
That's awesome. Exactly how were the things programmed to play music? Clockwork? Steam power?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:20 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Auriga
That too. I also thought of the Nephilim half-humans, the Annunaki, the Titans, and other demi-god aliens. But it's also obvious that Bakker has also borrowed from ancient human civilizations, at least with the external trappings of the Nonmen's culture (war chariots like Egyptians, cuneiform writing like Sumerians, etc.)

And yes, I know that Shigek is supposed to be Egypt, and the Ancient North is supposed to evoke Mesopotamia with its bizarro Sumerian-Germanic language.

...


Thanks for that. I find this history-about-history pretty fascinating.

Bakker only has human cognition to narrate with - lest he's an alien or a mutant?

+1

Quote from: Auriga
Hmm, didn't notice that part. You mean Shimeh, though?

I do, indeed.

Quote
"The carpenter-overseers who had directed the assembly of both toweres swore they were miracles of engineering - as they should be, given that the Warrior-Prophet had designed them" (LE TTT, p308)

Forgive my momentary lapses. Life is distracting me ;).

Quote from: Auriga
Slaughtering thousands to keep a labyrinth secret isn't that much more labor-saving than having those same people build a palace. Anyways, I'm not being anal about buildings and monuments in particular, just that this new Kellhusian age seems to lack any physical landmarks. There's no real "symbol of the new era".

I wasn't necessarily speaking of labor-saving as opposed to a Landmark effort that equals the same sustained effort of Monuments, added with the hidden disposal.

+1 regardless.

Quote from: Auriga
Catapults and battering rams and siege towers are used plenty in the Holy War (how did you miss this?), in almost every battle, especially when the Scarlet Spires are on strike. The siege technology seems very "High Middle Ages" to me.

The Sauglish flashback in TJE also shows the ancient Norsirai using massive siege-crossbows as flak artillery to shoot down dragons. I imagine the Norsirai used both siege engines and sorcery to take cities - one of the spells that takes down Wutteat in the fifth book is (*copy-pastes from e-book*) "the Noviratic Spike, a Gnostic War-Cant contrived to batter through great city gates".

Lapses, friend. Though to be fair, the only specific mention of siege engines I remember off hand is:

"Teams of oxen and men were sent into the hills to fell timber for siege engines" (TWP, p509).

But then, Bakker's writing blows me away so while his war-craft is par for demographic, all of his other writing excels so much is distracts from those "mundane" passages ;).

Quote from: lockesnow
In other words, there are sort of naturally occurring upper bounds to technology levels that are due to deficiencies in human socialization or custom, the upper bound is defined by cultural restraints rather than what a simple linear progression would suggest.

+1. In many cases, it's a simple phenomenon and, others, a complex matrix.

Quote from: lockesnow
Earwa has never had these virtuous cycles of progress occur outside of the Nonman tutelage, they've either been cut off culturally, or impossible to occur given the cultures involved.

I read a Cu'jara Cinmoi quote today about the fact that the Five Tribes were uniformly patriarchal because of their shared history.

Quote from: Auriga
Anyways, I started this thread mostly out of nerdish interest and curiosity in what kind of science exists (or could potentially exist) in Bakker's world. This is just brainstorming, a way of mental masturbation really.

+1

Quote from: Auriga
Still, I'd like to hear more suggestions (for example - "how do the Three Seas measure time?" or "what other soul-fueled engines could the Nonmen have used"?) Scouring the books for tiny details isn't really necessary, think of this as semi-fanfiction instead. Let your imaginations run free. Speculate as much as you like.

Hmm... lockesnow quoted Esmenet from TWP on Westeros that suggests, according to her, the common conception is Geocentric Universe.

I'll let myself sleep on this one.

Quote from: Duskweaver
Meh. The Greeks certainly had complex mechanical devices at least as far back as the 3rd century BC (and Pindar described things that might have been humanoid automata another couple of centuries before that), and there is some evidence that Chinese engineers could create similar automata as early as c.1000 BC. The Arabs had invented programmable mechanical musicians by the 13th century AD.

Cironj being an island famous for its automata would perhaps make it an analogue for the real world's Rhodes, which apparently had that reputation in the Hellenistic period.

+1. Antikythera Mechanism.

Quote from: Auriga
Didn't the ancient Greeks invent a machine (for calculating the seasons, IIRC) that was the prototype of an analog computer? I dunno how far they got in developing mechanical devices - IIRC, they did have animatronic statues and some sort of steam-engine prototype. I haven't heard of Chinese automata, but then again, I'm very hazy on Chinese history.

The Chinese basically had a steam-powered Ford Factory industry in the 12th Century.

Quote from: Auriga
That's awesome. Exactly how were the things programmed to play music? Clockwork? Steam power?

Clockwork, gears, & water turbines. Semi-related but The Discovery of Time, Edited by Stuart McCready is a fantastic read.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:31 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Auriga
Didn't the ancient Greeks invent a machine (for calculating the seasons, IIRC) that was the prototype of an analog computer?
You're thinking of the Antikythera Mechanism. It did more than "calculate the seasons", though. It accurately calculated the positions of the Sun, Moon and all the (then) five known planets, lunar phases, solar and lunar eclipses, and the correct dates for the Olympic Games.

Quote
That's awesome. Exactly how were the things programmed to play music? Clockwork? Steam power?
Repositionable pegs moving past a set of levers, basically. Water/gravity-powered, controlled by hydraulic pressure switches.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:37 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Just on the gem stone polishing - that is rather pointless, isn't it? You're not living - so why bother dragging out the affair?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:42 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Callan S.
so why bother dragging out the affair?
Pride.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:46 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Duskweaver
You're thinking of the Antikythera Mechanism. It did more than "calculate the seasons", though. It accurately calculated the positions of the Sun, Moon and all the (then) five known planets, lunar phases, solar and lunar eclipses, and the correct dates for the Olympic Games.
Yep, that's the one. I didn't know it could calculate the positions of the sun, moon, and planets. Although I wonder how it did this in a pre-industrial age?

Quote
Repositionable pegs moving past a set of levers, basically. Water/gravity-powered, controlled by hydraulic pressure switches.
Thanks for the info. I'd love to learn more about ancient Chinese robotics and al-Jazari's engineering, I find this pre-modern machinery really fascinating. I did some google-fu on this, but didn't get any good sites.

The medieval Middle-East was quite advanced in many ways - not just the automatic musical band, but stuff like astrolabes and quadrants were also invented at that time. I wonder what the Bakker-world equivalent would be?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 09:25:54 pm
Quote from: Madness
Al-Jazari and the History of the Water Clock (http://www.history-science-technology.com/articles/articles%206.htm)

Here's something to wet your whistle, Auriga.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Madness on January 01, 2014, 01:44:12 pm
Study of the Antikythera Mechanism: Ancient astronomy: Mechanical inspiration (http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101124/full/468496a.html)

Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Phallus Pendulus on February 04, 2014, 12:21:09 pm
There's always this as well:

http://revelationawaitsanappointedtime.blogspot.com/2011/03/arabic-automata.html (http://revelationawaitsanappointedtime.blogspot.com/2011/03/arabic-automata.html)

I had no idea that pre-industrial robots were around in the Middle Ages, tbh.

Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Madness on February 06, 2014, 12:27:07 pm
I had no idea that pre-industrial robots were around in the Middle Ages, tbh.

I'll have to find a link but I've encountered evidence of a 12th century "factory" basically, with a "production line."
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Phallus Pendulus on February 07, 2014, 02:58:18 pm
I'll have to find a link but I've encountered evidence of a 12th century "factory" basically, with a "production line."

IIRC, the Romans also had something similar to assembly-line factories, worked by thousands of slaves. Can't remember where I read it, either.

Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Alia on February 07, 2014, 04:09:39 pm
Well, people in the ancient times and then middle ages knew things that would seem surprisingly out of their times. For example, the ancient Greeks knew steam engine and a lot about optics. But the point is - they seldom used this knowledge. Simply because they really had no need for it. If the society works just fine using slave labour, why would you need machines?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Wilshire on February 07, 2014, 04:51:46 pm
Invention out of necessity, always.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: mrganondorf on April 05, 2014, 12:07:03 am
@ Centurion or anyone.  Centurion said
Quote
Inchoroi: They have lasers and advanced genetic technology.  When these "real world" technologies were pitted against the Nonmen they were almost evenly matched.  They also have a wrecked spaceship which is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.  Obviously, this means that Earwa exists in an alternate reality where Daleks got Time Lord technology and are using it to try and shut off the Outside, rendering them the supreme rulers of time and space.

Did I miss something?  Is the Ark really bigger on the inside than the out?  I didn't see anyone else responding to this bit!

@ Madness - I love your idea that the Ark is kind of like one huge Chorae!  Seswatha would definitely need help in there.  :)
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Wilshire on April 05, 2014, 07:28:14 pm
I think its  a perception illusion rather than some kind of magic. You cannot see the ship, other than the horns, and the inside is larger than most cities. I presume that it is just buried underground, making appear larger inside.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Madness on April 06, 2014, 12:51:25 pm
@ Madness - I love your idea that the Ark is kind of like one huge Chorae!  Seswatha would definitely need help in there.  :)

Can you point this out for me... I don't think I meant that? Was I making a No-Ship analogy?
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: mrganondorf on April 06, 2014, 04:34:50 pm
I think I screwed it up!

On page 2 of the thread, Wilshire said

"Wasn't the inside of the Ark also inscribed with innumerable runes, or am I remembering something wrong?  Regardless, anything covered in runes has got to be some kind of magical."

Later on page 2 Madness responded

"The ark is described as covered in 'alien filigree,' Wilshire, which amounts to the same.  I've often wondered at the past and future prevalence of sorcerous objects.  Is there something more powerful than Chorae?"
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Wilshire on April 06, 2014, 04:56:04 pm
Depends on how you define "more powerful". It would be pretty terrifying if there was some kind of choraeic field generator, that simply negated and vaporized/salted any sorcery/schoolman contained within it.
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Madness on April 08, 2014, 09:27:56 am
I think I screwed it up!

On page 2 of the thread, Wilshire said

"Wasn't the inside of the Ark also inscribed with innumerable runes, or am I remembering something wrong?  Regardless, anything covered in runes has got to be some kind of magical."

Later on page 2 Madness responded

"The ark is described as covered in 'alien filigree,' Wilshire, which amounts to the same.  I've often wondered at the past and future prevalence of sorcerous objects.  Is there something more powerful than Chorae?"

Thanks.

Sentence 1 explicitly refers to Wilshire's sentence 1. Sentence 2 can definitely be taken as you've taken it but I was thinking generally about sorcerous objects - I find it interesting that the Inchoroi or entity X inscribed the Ark but I don't think it's sorcerous - alien is what I focused on in my reading. Sentence 3 refers to the general sorcerous objects conception I had going - like if the Nonmen Aporetic's or anyone since (Mihtrulic) had done anything differently, based on the idea that Chorae are simply artifacts of the Aporos whereas we've been denied Gnostic objects (despite what we've seen of Kellhus' hardware, Mimara's scores from Sauglish, and the Agonic Collar).

Depends on how you define "more powerful". It would be pretty terrifying if there was some kind of choraeic field generator, that simply negated and vaporized/salted any sorcery/schoolman contained within it.

This is more what I was riffing towards. No-Sorcery field...
Title: Re: Technology level
Post by: Wilshire on April 08, 2014, 01:48:44 pm
A faintly visible, expanding hemisphere of death(retribution?)