The Celmomian Prophecy [Moved from The Darkness That Comes Before]

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Madness

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« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2014, 06:50:39 pm »
Virimsata at its root is a useful metaphor for culture.
*Nods* Bakker's description of Viramsata is (IIRC) almost word-for-word Dawkins' description of memes.

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mrganondorf

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« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2014, 05:16:45 pm »
@ Francis Buck - "Why would the Consult prize him so much as to use him for the basis of the No-God?"  I'm sure someone has said this, but I bet it's because Nau-Cayuti is the avatar of the world soul?  That part in WLW when the mandati is telling Sorweel about Kellhus and saying that Kellhus is the shape of the whole--I bet that's what makes NC special. 

"I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah." -- I love this sooo much!!!  Also the way to become a self-moving soul?

Wilshire

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« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2014, 06:43:10 pm »
"I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah." -- I love this sooo much!!!  Also the way to become a self-moving soul?

I think there is definitely a part of Earwa that allows subjectivity to alter objective truths.

As for becoming a self-moving soul, I'd say yes but in a way almost the opposite of how the Dunyain are trying to achieve it. They want to become self-moving through training, reason, and understanding. Simply believing in yourself hard enough to make it come true seems like anathema to the entire Dunyain philosophy.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2014, 02:11:50 am »
"I always interpreted the virimsata stuff as being a sort clue into what's going on with Kellhus. He plays the messiah so deeply that he actually becomes the messiah." -- I love this sooo much!!!  Also the way to become a self-moving soul?

I think there is definitely a part of Earwa that allows subjectivity to alter objective truths.

As for becoming a self-moving soul, I'd say yes but in a way almost the opposite of how the Dunyain are trying to achieve it. They want to become self-moving through training, reason, and understanding. Simply believing in yourself hard enough to make it come true seems like anathema to the entire Dunyain philosophy.

DO NOT cut Mimara off on the highway.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2014, 08:39:53 pm »
What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?

It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?

If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.

locke

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« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2014, 08:08:56 am »
What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?

It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?

If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.
Duncan Idaho?

Wilshire

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« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2014, 12:32:44 pm »
What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?

It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?

If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.
Duncan Idaho?
Duncan Idaho! :D

But we already know the end of the world is nigh, so the prophesy turned out to be true (regarding an Anasurimbor being the Harbinger) regardless of which Anasurimbor it pointed to. That house's role in the prophecy has been fulfilled.

All that remains is the death of Seswatha. The claim is that the world ends with Seswatha's death, which is far more important than the Anasurimbor's role, imo.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2014, 05:16:39 pm »
What if the Dunyain figured out how to rework skin spies not long after the Consult made them and crafted an extra special one that had working reproductive organs, the gift of the few, and named it Kellhus?

It's programmed to be ignorant of its own skinspy status, to produce only human kids (but extra special), and is so well crafted, only a dunyain could tell it was a skin spy?

If the Celmomian prophecy ends up being a false prophecy, then the Dunyain found the way around it by just making their own Anasurimbor.
Duncan Idaho?

lol, why not! :)

twist: Earwa was not the planet the Inchoroi were looking for--they wanted Arrakis!

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2014, 10:00:07 pm »
The claim is that the world ends with Seswatha's death.

Debatable.  Seswatha is already dead and the first apocalypse is over. 
I think that part was Celmomas telling Seswatha that he was the last hope of stopping the No-god. He doesn't get his 'message from the future' until after that.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

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« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2014, 04:44:21 pm »
Debatable. 
Oh good, I love debates.

If Seswatha is dead, then the Anasurimbor's never left Earwa, and the whole prophecy is nonsense. The Dunyain, and thus the Anasurimbor's, survived in the north, but were removed from the scene, allowing for a "return" even though they never left. I think this shows enough ambiguity to say that while Seswatha's body may have perished, he remains alive in the minds/souls of the Mandate and Swayali.

If an Anasurimbor can return from where he never left, Seswatha can be alive even though he is dead.

We know that the first half of the prophecy is true. The World, which I take to mean humanity, is in peril. They are all at risk of being obliterated thanks to Kellhus and the Inchoroi. The Great Ordeal would never have happened without Moenghus and Kellhus, so one of them was indeed the Harbinger.

Again, because the first half of the prophecy is shown to be true, so too should we consider the second half to be true. If all those connected to Seswatha die, the world will end. Without any Gnostic school(wo)men, there is nothing to oppose the Consult, the world is lost.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2014, 01:27:21 am »
There are two parts to the prophecy, with different sources.
Read transcript of the prophecy from the OP again and see what you think.
You will see Celmomas is saying the gods are telling him Seswatha's fate is bound to averting the Apocalypse. Imo the gods can see Seswatha's role because he survives in the branching of history where the consult fails and the cycle of souls is resumed. If Seswatha dies before then, so does the world.
This is separate from his next statement (the actual prophetic part) where Celmomas sees and hears his descendant - who he assumes is NC.

No need for hazy definitions of death, Seswatha does survive the first apocalypse and is vital to the defeat of the consult - without him the world certainly would have ended.  So first prophecy is fulfilled.
It's more like a precondition for the second prophecy imo.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

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« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2014, 03:02:33 pm »
I guess thats a good point, Seswatha had to survive in order for there to be time for his descendant to return.


"He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort. He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha—an Anasûrimbor will return . . .” A shudder wracked the old man, forcing breath and spittle through his teeth. “At the end of the world.”"

All this states is that an Anasurimbor will be around when the world ends. It doesn't even say that he is the harbinger, but that one will be around when the world dies. So really, to save the world, the Anasurimbor family must be destroyed, else the King's prophesy might come true :P. No Anasurimbor = no end of the world.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2014, 03:55:16 am »
Lol, Curthane and Wilshire, you both got me thinking--the prophecy claims that the burden of apocalypse is Seswatha's and that's it.  Does he bear the burden, dead or alive???   I have no idea what it would mean for a dead Seswatha to bear the burden of apocalypse, but the Outside could be full of surprises!