[Somnambulist]

Another double-poster here.  Specifically regarding Meppa.

So in WLW, he's described as having white hair, which I griped about before since he's Cish and they usually shave their heads.  In TGO, when he drops his Fanayal glamour disguise and attacks Esmi, he's described as shaven (cheeks, chin and scalp) like a Cish should be.  So, probably not important at all, but was the white hair before just a glamour so that enemies wouldn't be able to identify him?  Or did he just decide to shave his head when they got to Momemn?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Also, Meppa doesn't utilize snakes, like at all, from what I remember.  Certainly, none were mentioned in TGO.  Is his visor then providing a sight alternative?  Seems likely now I think about it.  In addition to the shaven head, having snakes wrapped around your neck may have been too much of a give-away if you're trying to hide that you're a Cish from would-be assassins.

Anyway, just random thoughts on my favorite, nearly-extinct branch of sorcerous practitioners.  Carry on.

[Wilshire]

I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Yeah, something is up with that.  There shouldn't be a break between him swinging and Malowebi's head seeing Kellhus replace him, yet, there is...

I don't think he is editing time, because if he was, his power would literally be unlimited.  He could have just went back, killed Meppa before Meppa was even Meppa.  Or move Esmenet before she even walked into the throne room.

Something is up with the whole "this has already happened" and somehow Kellhus is manipulating that.  How? I don't know...

Could be out of order, could be some backwards/forwards time moments within the story. Like, for example, Dagliash this happens several times.

Teleportation makes things happen very fast: Slices off head, teleports to esmi, Kelmomas yells, teleports to Malowebi, replaces head with decapitant.

Malowebi could have spent longer than you might initially think with his soul in oblivion

"This has already happened" comes into play with Survivor as well, and his revelations about Zero-God. Something about all of time existing at once for the God/s but also linearly for those within it.  White-Luck's POVs, IMO, show us a kind of mortals perspective of the God/s POV. Everything has happened, yet they still flow from one event to the next. From before to after .

My point being that I have sincere doubts there is any timetravel, especially for mortals. Like how a massive object can't go the speed of light, a soul encumbered by a mortal body can't go back in time.

I know there's a lot of disagreement about this on the forum, but I rank MOST Cishaurim below MOST anagogic sorcerers. I think that is something specific about the Psukhe that the Consult fears. That being said, probably Meppa is stronger than most of the (now dead) Cishaurim primaries.

If that ranking is correct, it seems unlikely SS would have been so decimated.
Even if it is correct, its never the 'most' that matter. I get the feeling that the majority of a school's power is in their sorcerers of rank. Who cares about the peons. The Primaries outmatched the SS's most elite.

Its not relevant though, since there aren't any more Cish. Meppa seemed to dispense an enormous amount of power. Something like that I would hope would be stronger than the Analogies grandmasters, and probably many of the Gnosoti.

In the scene where Meppa and Kell are going at it 1v1,  Malowebi sees Kell's wards disappear, but they continue to reflect and repel the water as he completes his Cant.

EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

Kellhus has Believe-Kings from all nations. Pretty sure there are references to Ninameshi contingents in The Great Ordeal.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.

Thank the Gods we can get past at least this one part of the meta-moenghus crackpottery.

[Madness]

EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

I'd have to find the exact quote but I believe I recall the Nilnameshi were either simply tributaries to Fanim Kian or recently converted? I believe it comes up nearer the end of TWP in one of the Omnipresent War POVs.

Another double-poster here.  Specifically regarding Meppa.

So in WLW, he's described as having white hair, which I griped about before since he's Cish and they usually shave their heads.  In TGO, when he drops his Fanayal glamour disguise and attacks Esmi, he's described as shaven (cheeks, chin and scalp) like a Cish should be.  So, probably not important at all, but was the white hair before just a glamour so that enemies wouldn't be able to identify him?  Or did he just decide to shave his head when they got to Momemn?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Also, Meppa doesn't utilize snakes, like at all, from what I remember.  Certainly, none were mentioned in TGO.  Is his visor then providing a sight alternative?  Seems likely now I think about it.  In addition to the shaven head, having snakes wrapped around your neck may have been too much of a give-away if you're trying to hide that you're a Cish from would-be assassins.

Anyway, just random thoughts on my favorite, nearly-extinct branch of sorcerous practitioners.  Carry on.

When Malowebi first meets Fanayal in WLW Meppa does have a snake with him.

Could be out of order, could be some backwards/forwards time moments within the story. Like, for example, Dagliash this happens several times.

Teleportation makes things happen very fast: Slices off head, teleports to esmi, Kelmomas yells, teleports to Malowebi, replaces head with decapitant.

Malowebi could have spent longer than you might initially think with his soul in oblivion.

I think the problem is two-fold. Bakker's sense of narrative continuity per book is not great. When I read the draft, there were a few serious timing issues, which Bakker admitted that he had never perceived/made attempts address.

The other is that I think moving forward, we are actually going to get either two Malowebi POVs, both which will be convoluted by Malowebi's predicament and how it involves the Outside (where things like time are not experienced as they are strictly in the mortal realm), one being Ciphrang-Malowebi and the other being Malowebi's head or one Malowebi POV, the head, while Ciphrang-Malowebi is experienced by a new Zeumi POV - like that ass Likaro . No special knowledge on authorial intent there, just an educated guess.

In fact, Malowebi's probably worth a thread.

"This has already happened" comes into play with Survivor as well, and his revelations about Zero-God. Something about all of time existing at once for the God/s but also linearly for those within it.  White-Luck's POVs, IMO, show us a kind of mortals perspective of the God/s POV. Everything has happened, yet they still flow from one event to the next. From before to after .

My point being that I have sincere doubts there is any timetravel, especially for mortals. Like how a massive object can't go the speed of light, a soul encumbered by a mortal body can't go back in time.

Who knows what it possible where the ways of the Outside are concerned?

EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

Kellhus has Believe-Kings from all nations. Pretty sure there are references to Ninameshi contingents in The Great Ordeal.

I think Somnambulist was asking pre-Kellian Empire.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.

Thank the Gods we can get past at least this one part of the meta-moenghus crackpottery.

Lmao. Moenghus is life !

And, probably wrong thread: though, I've never bought into "Moenghus pulls all strings," I do still think there is more to Moenghus's thirty years than is addressed in the narrative so far and it was really validating to see Kellhus mention to Proyas that he was wrong about Moenghus and killed his father in error.

[H]

EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

I'd have to find the exact quote but I believe I recall the Nilnameshi were either simply tributaries to Fanim Kian or recently converted? I believe it comes up nearer the end of TWP in one of the Omnipresent War POVs.

I couldn't find that exactly, but I couldn't find anywhere that said Nilnameshi was Fanim.  In fact, the Glossary only talks about Girgash, having not been conquered, being proselytized and converting to Fanimry.  It is remarked that it is the only nation outside of Kian itself to be Fanim, so that kind of rules out Nilnameshi being so.

The entry for Nilnameshi says they were:

Nilnamesh—A populous Ketyai nation on the extreme southwest edge of the Three Seas, famed for its ceramics, spices, and stubborn refusal to relinquish its exotic versions of Kiünnat either to Inrithism or to Fanimry.

Kiünnat is Tusk worship from before Inrithism, so they are Men of the Tusk, but not part of the Thousand Temples.

In fact, this search led me to something rather interesting, but that is for later and a different thread.

[Hirtius/Pansa]

Why is Meppa not dead?  Or am I missing some joke?  It seemed like he was de-atomized by Kellhus.

[H]

Why is Meppa not dead?  Or am I missing some joke?  It seemed like he was de-atomized by Kellhus.

The last we see of Meppa is:

Malowebi's gaze caught upon the visage of a Decapitant, then Meppa sprawled semi-conscious across the wine-dark crimson of carpet.

So, it would seem that Meppa is still alive, although, for how long we don't know...

[Madness]

Kellhus does have two Ciphrang heads ?

[H]

Kellhus does have two Ciphrang heads ?

Oh, indeed.  I don't doubt he kept two for reasons.

[Madness]

Though, to be honest, I always liked the Ciphrang-Kosoter conjecture of yesteryear.

But Ciphrang-Meppa .

[Blackstone]

Sorry, double post, but another thought:

I'm fairly sure Meppa is that kid in TTT that Aurang "tells a secret." Wouldn't it be really interesting, since learning that it was the Dunyain and not the Cishaurim or the Psuhke responsible for outing the Skin-Spies, that the Consult might have helped the kid learn the Psuhke so that he'd be another thorn in Kellhus' side later?

I don't think it could be the kid. Meppa seems like he is quite aged.

I know there's a lot of disagreement about this on the forum, but I rank MOST Cishaurim below MOST anagogic sorcerers. I think that is something specific about the Psukhe that the Consult fears. That being said, probably Meppa is stronger than most of the (now dead) Cishaurim primaries.

If that ranking is correct, it seems unlikely SS would have been so decimated.
Even if it is correct, its never the 'most' that matter. I get the feeling that the majority of a school's power is in their sorcerers of rank. Who cares about the peons. The Primaries outmatched the SS's most elite.

You are correct, since most of them are dead it doesn't matter. BUT. I have to say, I disagree with your interpretation. Eleazarus was beating the Hersiarch (sp) until he got attacked by two more primaries. It was three on one.

Eleazarus also killed all three of the Cishaurim that snuck into the SS. It says their wards melt away beneath his dragon head.

[H]

Well, I think the Psûkhe can be more powerful  than it is now, it just hasn't been refined enough yet.  You can find in my "Kiünnat and Zero" thread why I this might be true...

[Somnambulist]

Suddenly he (Kellhus) released her (Esmenet), stood graven in white and shadow as she wailed abject at his feet.

Both Father and Mother jerked their faces in his (Kelmomas) direction. Father took a single step...

He glanced back to the dais, saw his father striding out toward the Circumfix Throne, peering at the now hapless assassin - and the ground exploded...

The penultimate vault, the one framing the missing wall, the one bearing the prayer tower that had been raised upon it, simply dropped. It fell as a cudgel wreathed in streamers of dust, a hammer the size of a bastion, crashing upon the very spot where Father had stood.

And he (Kelmomas) screamed, shrieked in terror and fury of a child bereft of all he had loved and known.

So... Did we just witness Esmi's death?  She isn't mentioned after they both turn to look at Kelmomas, and a 'bastion' fell on the spot where Kellhus and she were together.  Kelmomas only loved Esmenet, and it says he was bereft of all he had loved and known.  I think Esmenet just died. 

[H]

And he (Kelmomas) screamed, shrieked in terror and fury of a child bereft of all he had loved and known.

So... Did we just witness Esmi's death?  She isn't mentioned after they both turn to look at Kelmomas, and a 'bastion' fell on the spot where Kellhus and she were together.  Kelmomas only loved Esmenet, and it says he was bereft of all he had loved and known.  I think Esmenet just died. 

At first reading I didn't get that sense, but rereading it now, yeah, I actually think you are right.  But if Kellhus was there why didn't he save her?

EDIT: Thinking back (I don't have the book with me, at the moment) Kellhus statement about not saving Serwë seems large here.  He didn't save her, he can't save Esmenet either?

[Blackstone]

Holy shit. I missed that, but seeing the quotes you have, it does seem like she is dead.

[Wilshire]

I'd be surprised if she was dead. Kelmomas is not particularly reliable, and I assume that Kellhus teleported away from the danger and took her with him. He seemed to like her more than a Dunyain should.
That whole scene was rather confusing, I'll have to read it more closely once I get the full release.