Some thoughts

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Ankaryotis

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« on: March 31, 2014, 06:35:47 pm »
First of all, as a long time lurker of the second apocalypse forum thanks for making this place such an interesting place to visit and read.

After a second re-reading of the White-Luck Warrior several things have come to my mind that I would like to share:

- Is the Captain possesed by a Ciphrang? After a more thorough review of the events, specially regarding the scene where Mimara sees the Captain from the point of view of the judging eye and specially during his death scene, which seems to be anything but natural, as well as the parallelism drawn between Kellhus and the two ciphrang hanging heads and Sarl with Kosoter´s severed  head at the end, this could be  certainly the case. Also, it leads to interesting implications for Kellhus journey to the Outside.

- Although I´m pretty sure that this topic has been discussed elsewhere, it´s clear that Kellhus at some point had access to Achamian´s dream records during his exile, and that Kosoter company deployment had been arranged in advance of Akka´s decision to travel to Sauglish. Also it´s clear that somehow Kellhus has spent some time in the company of Cleric and that the Captain was following orders to carry both Achamian and Cleric together. But which was the purpose of all this? during the Slog of slogs it´s implied that both Mimara and Achamian are to serve as a kind of sacrifice (maybe for Cleric to remember??) And the dialogue of Aurang with Soma  points in this direction. Maybe Kellhus original plan was to recover the identity of Cleric/Nil´Giccas towards the end of the Ordeal by sacrificing Akka and gaining /switching the allegiance of Ishterebinth in the process?

- Regarding Ishual it might be too much coincidence that the Sranc mobbing occurs just as they are closing in the fortress (which appears to have been destroyed quite recently), and also that this sranc carry Chorae, something that does not happen at least during the slog in the Mop, the Istyuli Plains and Kuniuri?? It might be that this horde was involved somehow in the destruction of the Dunyain fortress??

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 07:42:26 pm »
Ironsoul:
I'm more on the fence with this one thatn I used to be, but I still think its a bit of a stretch. He is an evil dude, and he still looks like a human in the POV JE. A Blasted, tortured, and burned human perhaps, put still walking upright and without horns.
I would think that something as powerful as TJE appears to be, that it would be able to reveal his true form.
That said, maybe not. It could be that that kind of damnation  is unprecedented in a human who has been alive for only a few decades. We know that (non)men have traveled to the Outside in the past and have been possessed somehow by Ciphrang, and we just don't know wtf Kellhus did out there. Maybe he went in with 2 human souls (his own and Kosoter) and came back with his own intact in exchange for Kosoter's.
Which ever  of these two explanation is less obvious is likely closer to the truth, but I haven't any idea which one that may be. Lies and mysteries.


Ishual and Sranc:
First, Mimara got her Chorae from a dead sranc, so its not terribly unlikely that there where a couple in those large mobs that had them. It is, however, a bit odd that there are so many sranc in their way, since Ishual is far northwest of the Ordeal... Or is it? All the sranc in the North seem to either be drawn to the Ordeal, or mobbing in front of it once they get there. Given the circumstances, it doesn't seem terribly out of the ordinary.
Once they get to the snowy mountain passes the sranc disappear, which seem reasonable, considering Ishual was never under sustained attack from sranc (that we know).

Skin Eaters:
No idea what the end game of this was (or what it was supposed to be). Sacrificing Akka doesn't seem likely because of the huge foreshadowing at the end of TTT, but Mimara is a disposable pawn to Kellhus at best(if he is unaware of TJE), and a liability at worst (if he does know). Using her to turn the Nonmen King to their side, as a contingency for whatever Serwe/Sorweel are doing, is a good idea.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 04:51:52 pm by Wilshire »
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Madness

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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2014, 01:29:07 pm »
I think you joined a long time ago, Ankaryotis, but welcome to posting at the Second Apocalypse.

- Is the Captain possesed by a Ciphrang?

...

Also, it leads to interesting implications for Kellhus journey to the Outside.

Ironsoul:
I'm more on the fence with this one thatn I used to be, but I still think its a bit of a stretch. He is an evil dude, and he still looks like a human in the POV JE. A Blasted, tortured, and burned human perhaps, put still walking upright and without horns.
I would think that something as powerful as TJE appears to be, that it would be able to reveal his true form.
That said, maybe not.

Yeah, I'm unsure about this as well. I do think he's Ciphrang so maybe all souls are simply forced into their mundane forms and the Ciphrang would just look really, really Damned - which again, he's compared to Achamian and Cleric.

What are you interesting implications, Ankaryotis?

But which was the purpose of all this? during the Slog of slogs it´s implied that both Mimara and Achamian are to serve as a kind of sacrifice (maybe for Cleric to remember??) And the dialogue of Aurang with Soma  points in this direction. Maybe Kellhus original plan was to recover the identity of Cleric/Nil´Giccas towards the end of the Ordeal by sacrificing Akka and gaining /switching the allegiance of Ishterebinth in the process?

Skin Eaters:
No idea what the end game of this was (or what it was supposed to be). Sacrificing Akka doesn't seem likely because of the huge foreshadowing at the end of TTT, but Mimara is a disposable pawn to Kellhus at best(if he is unaware of TJE), and a liability at worst (if he does know). Using her to turn the Nonmen King to their side, as a contingency for whatever Serwe/Sorweel are doing, is a good idea.

We can't really know, right?

Kellhus is basically unreadable at this point because we've been denied even the most basic moments with him. It's pretty awesome, actually - the entire text is conditioned from the lynchpin of his Leviathan. He comes before our reading.

I figure Kellhus wants Achamian and Mimara at Ishterebinth, as well.

But perhaps, Kellhus, like many readers have suggested elsewise, has realized from Achamian's extensive exploration of the Dreams, that he too needs to understand his origins.

However, Nil'giccas wasn't much use to Kellhus as King. Kellhus needed Achamian and Mimara to make it on their epic middle-book trek and Cleric/Kosoter were the weapon to do that.

- Regarding Ishual it might be too much coincidence that the Sranc mobbing occurs just as they are closing in the fortress (which appears to have been destroyed quite recently), and also that this sranc carry Chorae, something that does not happen at least during the slog in the Mop, the Istyuli Plains and Kuniuri?? It might be that this horde was involved somehow in the destruction of the Dunyain fortress??

Honestly, I'm super-curious about this avalanche that just happens to save them.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 01:30:43 pm by Madness »
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 03:13:38 am »
@ Ankaryotis - I really like your theory that Kellhus was trying to make Cleric remember to use him to retake Ishterebinth.  Cleric deliberately fails to screw up some part of Kellhus' plan?

I hadn't thought of it, but chorae + sranc automatically means Consult involvement.  And then I read Wishire's comment!  But sranc with chorae still seems odd to me.  Someone arming sranc outside of Ishual AND in Moria?

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 04:58:28 pm »
The histories we are given tell us that the Inchoroi tried to arm the sranc with chorae but they only ever saw them as trinkets and were prone to losing them. Who knows how many thousands of chorae the Inchoroi tried to give out. Most were lost, but given the massive numbers of sranc (and a similarly massive supply of chorae), statistically some are bound to still have some. A small handful out of thousands upon thousands is within the realm of reasonability imo.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2014, 08:22:08 pm »
The histories we are given tell us that the Inchoroi tried to arm the sranc with chorae but they only ever saw them as trinkets and were prone to losing them. Who knows how many thousands of chorae the Inchoroi tried to give out. Most were lost, but given the massive numbers of sranc (and a similarly massive supply of chorae), statistically some are bound to still have some. A small handful out of thousands upon thousands is within the realm of reasonability imo.

Makes me wonder if there are any chorae-hunters in the 3seas?  Maybe a lousy Mysunsai who travels about trying to find chorae like the people on the beach with metal detectors.  :P