Kellhus and Nau Cayuti

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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2014, 11:54:40 am »
Thanks, it's good to be back :)

I've always thought that the Anasurimbor of the prophesy is actually Mimara.

As for the Golden Room, it's just an educated guess. The nameless man and all others waiting in the line are already broken, so i guess the Inchies already had their fun with them. They are gathering them all either because they want to kill them, or because they want to use them in some other way. The fact that the nameless man instinctively dreads what happens in that room seems to imply that whatever that is, it's worse than torture and worse than death (Nau-Cayuti himself says that he doesn't fear death as there are worse things iirc).

Another guess has to do with the secret ingredient to the No-God recipe. Souls are gates to the outside. Shae uses a circle of souls to keep his own from falling in Hell. So with what we know so far, i would assume that the secret sauce is made of souls.

Last but not least, the prophesy itself is the corner stone of this story and i refuse to take it at face value. If Nau-Cayuti is dead and the outside is closed how can he reach his father? There is also the fact that the Consult also has a similar prophesy. What if the 2 prophesies have the same source ?

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« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2014, 12:08:12 pm »
Guesses, schmeshes.

There is not enough evidence and I hope we can't anticipate Bakker so easily ;).
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2014, 12:30:02 pm »
Guesses, schmeshes.

There is not enough evidence and I hope we can't anticipate Bakker so easily ;).

You have to admit that my last argument isn't that far-fetched  :P. Besides, there is always Aka's dream in the first chapter of the WLW, you know, the one with the child and the No God.

Nothing conclusive, i know ;). It's just one of those things. As soon as i finished A Game of Thrones i was willing to bet my... ehhmm let's go with honor, that i knew who was Jon's mommy (and dad :P). Still can't prove it though, damn...

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« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2014, 02:55:29 pm »
Lol.

I just find it difficult to believe the string of assumptions necessary to assume that Nau-Cayuti is the No-God.

Assumptions that go into Nau-Cayuti as the No-God:
- Nau-Cayuti is the Nameless Captive
- The Golden Room manifests the No-God
- The Golden Room uses the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- The Golden Room requires 144,000 people in the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- Nau-Cayuti/the Nameless Captive is somehow more than the other 143,999 people in the line in the No-God.

Thus, Nau-Cayuti is the No-God...

Too much nerdanel for me to support ;).

EDIT:

Sixth assumption: Baby in the dream is Nau-Cayuti, is No-God?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 02:57:28 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2014, 04:40:34 pm »
Thanks, it's good to be back :)

I've always thought that the Anasurimbor of the prophesy is actually Mimara.


As for the Golden Room, it's just an educated guess. The nameless man and all others waiting in the line are already broken, so i guess the Inchies already had their fun with them. They are gathering them all either because they want to kill them, or because they want to use them in some other way. The fact that the nameless man instinctively dreads what happens in that room seems to imply that whatever that is, it's worse than torture and worse than death (Nau-Cayuti himself says that he doesn't fear death as there are worse things iirc).

Another guess has to do with the secret ingredient to the No-God recipe. Souls are gates to the outside. Shae uses a circle of souls to keep his own from falling in Hell. So with what we know so far, i would assume that the secret sauce is made of souls.

Last but not least, the prophesy itself is the corner stone of this story and i refuse to take it at face value. If Nau-Cayuti is dead and the outside is closed how can he reach his father? There is also the fact that the Consult also has a similar prophesy. What if the 2 prophesies have the same source ?

Like that part a lot!  Also, very cool what you said--if Nau-Cayuti is the NG, then he is there at his dad's death.  Communicating sorcerously?  What with all these dreams being sent, is someone coaching Celmomas through a death vision...TO CONDITION SESWATHA???

SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2014, 04:42:27 pm »
Lol.

I just find it difficult to believe the string of assumptions necessary to assume that Nau-Cayuti is the No-God.

Assumptions that go into Nau-Cayuti as the No-God:
- Nau-Cayuti is the Nameless Captive
- The Golden Room manifests the No-God
- The Golden Room uses the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- The Golden Room requires 144,000 people in the Line O'Captives to manifest the No-God
- Nau-Cayuti/the Nameless Captive is somehow more than the other 143,999 people in the line in the No-God.

Thus, Nau-Cayuti is the No-God...

Too much nerdanel for me to support ;).

EDIT:

Sixth assumption: Baby in the dream is Nau-Cayuti, is No-God?

Isn't it obvious? He is the newest model, fresh from the oven! There is no such thing as too much nerdanel, you just have to do it with style ;D.

My favorite pet theory has always been that something has caused a loop in Earwa and that's why so many events big and small repeat themselves. So the baby should be  Nau Cayuti 2000, since according to Mimara who is NEVER wrong (ever), she is just a conduit that allowed Aka's (Seswatha) and Esmi's (empress) love child to be born.  If the dream implies that the baby is connected to the No God, then something similar should apply to the older model as well. It's totally straightforward as you can see for yourself.

I know it doesn't sound that impressive of a theory yet, but that's because i haven't yet managed to incorporate Elvis in to the mix. He will be the glue that makes this theory completely airtight, you will be awed.

Like that part a lot!  Also, very cool what you said--if Nau-Cayuti is the NG, then he is there at his dad's death.  Communicating sorcerously?  What with all these dreams being sent, is someone coaching Celmomas through a death vision...TO CONDITION SESWATHA???

If? Iiiiffffffff? How can you people still be in doubt, it's practically a proven fact by now. Who was coaching whom, that's a good question. Celmomas saw Nau-Cayuti but whom did the Consult see. WHAT DID THEY SEE?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 04:57:01 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2014, 09:42:36 pm »
Isn't it obvious? He is the newest model, fresh from the oven! There is no such thing as too much nerdanel, you just have to do it with style ;D.

Lol.

My favorite pet theory has always been that something has caused a loop in Earwa and that's why so many events big and small repeat themselves. So the baby should be  Nau Cayuti 2000, since according to Mimara who is NEVER wrong (ever), she is just a conduit that allowed Aka's (Seswatha) and Esmi's (empress) love child to be born.

I like the time loop but what is this about Mimara suggesting she bears her Mother's child? I remember that line but I read it as more a metaphor for the fact that had Kellhus not happened, Esmenet and Achamian would have probably had children and that the only reason Mimara and Achamian did the deed was because of Esmenet.

If the dream implies that the baby is connected to the No God, then something similar should apply to the older model as well. It's totally straightforward as you can see for yourself.

I know it doesn't sound that impressive of a theory yet, but that's because i haven't yet managed to incorporate Elvis in to the mix. He will be the glue that makes this theory completely airtight, you will be awed.

Lol.

Like that part a lot!  Also, very cool what you said--if Nau-Cayuti is the NG, then he is there at his dad's death.  Communicating sorcerously?  What with all these dreams being sent, is someone coaching Celmomas through a death vision...TO CONDITION SESWATHA???

If? Iiiiffffffff? How can you people still be in doubt, it's practically a proven fact by now. Who was coaching whom, that's a good question. Celmomas saw Nau-Cayuti but whom did the Consult see. WHAT DID THEY SEE?

I agree completely that the Celmomian Prophecy is an entity's tool. Whose tool is the question? I liked one of the more recent ideas is that it's Kellhus conditioning the present by affecting the past.

However, prophecy is an entirely different question, I think...

We do not know enough yet about how it works. We have two instances (Kellhus and Achamian) that predict the future and in both cases it seems to happen in order to help those who predicted it... so we've guessed Fate. Then we have two instances, prophecy and false prophecy and then one on this topic started by none other than SOA ;).

We don't know enough about the mechanics involved though. And there are too many players that might affect dreams still...

Bakker seeded the fuck out of this series... Moenghus is sending dreams to the Dunyain in the prologue and it's taken many of us until TAE/WLW to start applying agency to the Celmomian Prophecy...
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2014, 11:10:21 am »
I like the time loop but what is this about Mimara suggesting she bears her Mother's child? I remember that line but I read it as more a metaphor for the fact that had Kellhus not happened, Esmenet and Achamian would have probably had children and that the only reason Mimara and Achamian did the deed was because of Esmenet.

That's the trick. I really liked the JE allot, so i read it back to back a few times and i noticed that something was off with Mimara. The first thing that stuck with me was that she knows thinks she has no ways of knowing. For example she remarks that Soma is no man at all. It wasn't a metaphor (most readers at the time thought he was an eunuch) and she herself didn't realize he is a skin spy till much latter. I had noticed more little snippets like this but i will have to re-read the last 2 books to relocate them, my memory is kind of bad.

Another unique thing about her are her POVs. They are always in the present, kind of like the WLW's. While as a human being she understands time in a linear fashion, she seems to have a special connection to the outside that allows a part of her to look in the world from the outside. I'd go as far as to say that she is closer to the God than any other human being and that's what the JE is, she looks with God's eyes. In a way, her remarks are scripture ;).

Since the world is a kind of super entity, with a will of its own (fate), what she says about the child is very important, especially from a mother's perspective. Every instinct and even the physical reality of pregnancy makes her statement very unusual. But if you factor all of the recurring events in Earwa's history, it takes a very literal meaning. The child was meant to happen, like it happened before.

Another interesting thing with Mimara's POV's is that the author himself talks directly to his audience about the world and not through the world and his characters like his does with the rest of his POVs. They are written more or less the same way the "what came before" chapters are, which break the fourth wall in some cases (trolling us in the process :P).

Let's make a detour to talk about the Dunyain a little. Where the rest of the world share similar beliefs, the Dunyain believe in only one thing, causality. The have trained their will so much as to deny their instincts, their nature, their sensory input and every other thing that defines a human being except the Logos. In a sense, they are the most fanatical of all beings in Earwa, so their belief is singular and very very potent. That's how Kellhus bends fate around him, with belief, which is such a delicious irony. His actions delayed the birth of the child, but it had to be born in one way or another and Mimara understands that in a subconscious level. This is not just another child and we all know it ;).

Lol.

You are mocking my beliefs? Shame on you...

I agree completely that the Celmomian Prophecy is an entity's tool. Whose tool is the question? I liked one of the more recent ideas is that it's Kellhus conditioning the present by affecting the past.

However, prophecy is an entirely different question, I think...

We do not know enough yet about how it works. We have two instances (Kellhus and Achamian) that predict the future and in both cases it seems to happen in order to help those who predicted it... so we've guessed Fate. Then we have two instances, prophecy and false prophecy and then one on this topic started by none other than SOA ;).

We don't know enough about the mechanics involved though. And there are too many players that might affect dreams still...

Bakker seeded the fuck out of this series... Moenghus is sending dreams to the Dunyain in the prologue and it's taken many of us until TAE/WLW to start applying agency to the Celmomian Prophecy...

Those are some interesting threads, thanks for pointing them out. I especially liked the part about Nau-Cayuti being the No God, i don't feel alone in the world anymore ;D. Now about the entity. What is the No God? What is the outside for that matter and how the fuck do you close such a thing? Let's avoid unneeded complexity and go for some simple observations. The outside is full of souls, it's therefore alive and must have some kind of will. Most think that the No God is some singular being that cuts off the outside. What if the No God is just another outside? A constructed one to be more precise, that has limited capacity (i will leave you to guess the exact number ;)).

Now what does Celmomas see when he dies?
Quote
“They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.”

Notice the they? They can't be from the outside, since it's closed to the world. Therefore they are inside the No God, where Celmomas is currently headed. And there is where Nau-Cayuti is as well, one of many but not the same as the rest. Souls in Earwa are not equal, we have been hearing that since the beginning of the books, but we now know because Mimara confirms it. Even Shae calls Nau-Cayuti a prize. So he is in there, with a bunch of other souls and they form the inside of the No God. Since the No God takes the place of the outside and has a limited capacity, souls can't be recycled so there are no new births. I believe though that if the population drops below the 144k number, there will be new births with souls that come out of the No God to inhabit the fetuses. If you want a more visual example, think the No God like a matroska doll inside another one (the world).

That's what happens inside the No God, but what happens outside? More or less what happens to human beings. the No God is self aware, so he perceives himself as one, and strives to create an identity, but can't due to the contradiction of the inside, since he is the sum of thousands of different souls and their relations with one another. So he asks everyone outside of him what do they see, in order to build his identity through a watcher. A little system theory coupled with a little nuclear physics courtesy of mister Bakker.

Thus the prophesy is the tool of the souls inside the No God. There is only one prophesy, but there is more than one recipient and the interpretation of each faction is filtered through confirmation bias. So instead of one prophesy we get two :P. Btw, since the Consult follows Mimara around, they seem to think that she is the scion, while the mandate has accepted Kellhus as the harbinger. You know where i'd bet the farm ;).

The most interesting part of the story is the world though. The No God is self aware and that's why he has a will and strives for purpose. Since there is fate, it means the world also has a will but we can't see the identity, the whole if you will, because we always look inside it through the characters.

I do believe there has been an exception to the rule with Mimara though. In the JE, she looks through the tear of God and reaches God. The Cish probably do the same by blinding themselves, but Mimara is the only character that lets us witness this through her POV. What is God if not the super entity of the world? And there is the kicker, how the fuck can the world be self aware and have an identity without a watcher. Where and what is that watcher? Maybe he is the God exactly because he can watch and thus completely know himself, i don't know.

Maybe the answer isn't a metaphysical one. The world isn't as new as it seems from Earwa's technological advancement. Maybe Men, NonMen and even the Inchoroi are all the products of the fall of another age that was highly advanced. As much as the world seems to revolve around metaphysics, genetics play an abnormally large part in it.

I will close this post with some food for thought (translation = trolling). Since events repeat themselves, couldn't the world as we know it just be a simulation :P?

[EDIT] Or even better, maybe some crazy dude built the nail of heaven to watch over Earwa, making it self aware, wouldn't that be fun?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 03:14:02 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2014, 10:08:34 am »
I like the time loop but what is this about Mimara suggesting she bears her Mother's child? I remember that line but I read it as more a metaphor for the fact that had Kellhus not happened, Esmenet and Achamian would have probably had children and that the only reason Mimara and Achamian did the deed was because of Esmenet.

That's the trick. I really liked the JE allot, so i read it back to back a few times and i noticed that something was off with Mimara. The first thing that stuck with me was that she knows thinks she has no ways of knowing. For example she remarks that Soma is no man at all. It wasn't a metaphor (most readers at the time thought he was an eunuch) and she herself didn't realize he is a skin spy till much latter. I had noticed more little snippets like this but i will have to re-read the last 2 books to relocate them, my memory is kind of bad.

This couldn't simply be her, in context of Achamian, suggesting that Soma plays nice but he's really a beast, like all men? How can you say that it wasn't a metaphor?

Another unique thing about her are her POVs. They are always in the present, kind of like the WLW's. While as a human being she understands time in a linear fashion, she seems to have a special connection to the outside that allows a part of her to look in the world from the outside. I'd go as far as to say that she is closer to the God than any other human being and that's what the JE is, she looks with God's eyes. In a way, her remarks are scripture ;).

I'm usually wrong about it but I was corrected last time so here goes. The WLW is still written in past tense. Mimara and Yatwer's POV are written in present tense...

Another interesting thing with Mimara's POV's is that the author himself talks directly to his audience about the world and not through the world and his characters like his does with the rest of his POVs. They are written more or less the same way the "what came before" chapters are, which break the fourth wall in some cases (trolling us in the process :P).

I think the What Has Come Before is laced with lies. But everyone else seems to oscillate back and forth.

You'd have to give us examples of the authorial comments coming through... What if Mimara is mistaken in her certainty?

Let's make a detour to talk about the Dunyain a little. Where the rest of the world share similar beliefs, the Dunyain believe in only one thing, causality. The have trained their will so much as to deny their instincts, their nature, their sensory input and every other thing that defines a human being except the Logos. In a sense, they are the most fanatical of all beings in Earwa, so their belief is singular and very very potent. That's how Kellhus bends fate around him, with belief, which is such a delicious irony. His actions delayed the birth of the child, but it had to be born in one way or another and Mimara understands that in a subconscious level. This is not just another child and we all know it ;).

Maybe... evidence?

Lol.

You are mocking my beliefs? Shame on you...

Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.

Those are some interesting threads, thanks for pointing them out. I especially liked the part about Nau-Cayuti being the No God, i don't feel alone in the world anymore ;D. Now about the entity. What is the No God? What is the outside for that matter and how the fuck do you close such a thing? Let's avoid unneeded complexity and go for some simple observations. The outside is full of souls, it's therefore alive and must have some kind of will. Most think that the No God is some singular being that cuts off the outside. What if the No God is just another outside? A constructed one to be more precise, that has limited capacity (i will leave you to guess the exact number ;)).

The No-God by this description would only be the vacuum for souls - how does it stop new souls coming into the world or the Gods exercising an effect on the world?

Notice the they? They can't be from the outside, since it's closed to the world. Therefore they are inside the No God, where Celmomas is currently headed. And there is where Nau-Cayuti is as well, one of many but not the same as the rest. Souls in Earwa are not equal, we have been hearing that since the beginning of the books, but we now know because Mimara confirms it. Even Shae calls Nau-Cayuti a prize. So he is in there, with a bunch of other souls and they form the inside of the No God. Since the No God takes the place of the outside and has a limited capacity, souls can't be recycled so there are no new births. I believe though that if the population drops below the 144k number, there will be new births with souls that come out of the No God to inhabit the fetuses. If you want a more visual example, think the No God like a matroska doll inside another one (the world).

I get it. I don't buy it but it has internal consistency.

That's what happens inside the No God, but what happens outside? More or less what happens to human beings. the No God is self aware, so he perceives himself as one, and strives to create an identity, but can't due to the contradiction of the inside, since he is the sum of thousands of different souls and their relations with one another. So he asks everyone outside of him what do they see, in order to build his identity through a watcher. A little system theory coupled with a little nuclear physics courtesy of mister Bakker.

I like this description and it kind of explains why Nau-Cayuti might be the most prominent soul within... however, the post doesn't match the internal consistency of the 144, 000 narrative - which is itself inconsistent.

Wutteat, Achamian, and Ganus the Blind all have some idea of 144, 000 as a number of people who survive something. Is it the Apocalypse? What legend does Achamian refer to? Is it something digested from the Inchoroi's own mythos to now human myth?

Thus the prophesy is the tool of the souls inside the No God. There is only one prophesy, but there is more than one recipient and the interpretation of each faction is filtered through confirmation bias. So instead of one prophesy we get two :P. Btw, since the Consult follows Mimara around, they seem to think that she is the scion, while the mandate has accepted Kellhus as the harbinger. You know where i'd bet the farm ;).

Well... we don't know what the False Prophecy is. Maybe the Consult are kept busy because every time someone utters a prophecy they have to play their endgame within new constraints and so are forced to know and respect them all.

The most interesting part of the story is the world though. The No God is self aware and that's why he has a will and strives for purpose. Since there is fate, it means the world also has a will but we can't see the identity, the whole if you will, because we always look inside it through the characters.

I do believe there has been an exception to the rule with Mimara though. In the JE, she looks through the tear of God and reaches God. The Cish probably do the same by blinding themselves, but Mimara is the only character that lets us witness this through her POV. What is God if not the super entity of the world? And there is the kicker, how the fuck can the world be self aware and have an identity without a watcher. Where and what is that watcher? Maybe he is the God exactly because he can watch and thus completely know himself, i don't know.

Maybe but I was just saying to MG in another thread - we don't know whose Eye judges... It could be the God of Gods, the Solitary God, Anagke, Ajokli, Yatwer, Gilgaol, No-God, etc, etc... each making Mimara more or less reliable.

Maybe the answer isn't a metaphysical one. The world isn't as new as it seems from Earwa's technological advancement. Maybe Men, NonMen and even the Inchoroi are all the products of the fall of another age that was highly advanced. As much as the world seems to revolve around metaphysics, genetics play an abnormally large part in it.

Except we don't know how Yatwer has been affecting the genetical strings, even though they seem to behave like our world.

I will close this post with some food for thought (translation = trolling). Since events repeat themselves, couldn't the world as we know it just be a simulation :P?

Theory: Earwa is a simulation ;).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:11:48 am by Madness »
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2014, 12:56:23 pm »
This couldn't simply be her, in context of Achamian, suggesting that Soma plays nice but he's really a beast, like all men? How can you say that it wasn't a metaphor?

"It's Somandutta, the one man here she trusts, and only then because he is no man."

I mean look at the choice of words, it seems deliberate to me. Besides, you can't interpret the no man part in many ways, she either talks about gender, or about species. She had no way of knowing either one of them. Even in the context that men are beasts, it doesn't make much sense, why not just remark he isn't a beast like the others? The fact that it came true is also suspect. Of course, nothing is certain with Bakker, he is always vague with his clues as the rectum theory might attest. Still, when he does sneaky stuff like that there is usually a reason for it.

I'm usually wrong about it but I was corrected last time so here goes. The WLW is still written in past tense. Mimara and Yatwer's POV are written in present tense...

Yeah, you are right, i told you my memory sucks :P.

I think the What Has Come Before is laced with lies. But everyone else seems to oscillate back and forth.

You'd have to give us examples of the authorial comments coming through... What if Mimara is mistaken in her certainty?

I on the other hand think that the what has come before part is told from another perspective. Perspective is the cornerstone of these books. The watcher/narrator in this case isn't a part of the world of Earwa, he is outside of it like the reader. Again, i have to re read the books to relocate the parts that led me to that conclusion. The only one that stuck is about Kellhus becoming insane. Why would he make such a categorical statement? Unless it's from our perspective where the sane view is that the effect follows the cause and not the other way around.
[/quote]

Maybe... evidence?

Oh come on. The fact that Aka saw the child in a Seswatha dream didn't trigger any alarms at all to you? Even the Consult thinks it's important. There is no hard evidence because Scott doesn't give us any, ever. The bastard.

Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.

So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).

The No-God by this description would only be the vacuum for souls - how does it stop new souls coming into the world or the Gods exercising an effect on the world?

That's an easy one, there are no new souls :P. Earwa is eco friendly, the souls are recycled. They leave their memories in the outside and then back in the fray they go. That's why the souls inside the No God want out, they are bored to death.

I get it. I don't buy it but it has internal consistency.

You don't have to buy it, you just have to sing my praises when i am proven right. I am already writing the lyrics to save you some time.

I like this description and it kind of explains why Nau-Cayuti might be the most prominent soul within... however, the post doesn't match the internal consistency of the 144, 000 narrative - which is itself inconsistent.

Wutteat, Achamian, and Ganus the Blind all have some idea of 144, 000 as a number of people who survive something. Is it the Apocalypse? What legend does Achamian refer to? Is it something digested from the Inchoroi's own mythos to now human myth?

The reason i don't speculate about the number is that while there are references outside the books, Scott hasn't given us one useful hint about it. That doesn't mean i don't have a few theories of my own, but since they are completely baseless i don't think there is any reason to share them.

Well... we don't know what the False Prophecy is. Maybe the Consult are kept busy because every time someone utters a prophecy they have to play their endgame within new constraints and so are forced to know and respect them all.

Sure, there are endless possibilities, but we have to work with what we do know, and we get the Celmomian prophesy right at the beginning and most importantly we get it directly, not through Seswatha or another middle man.

Maybe but I was just saying to MG in another thread - we don't know whose Eye judges... It could be the God of Gods, the Solitary God, Anagke, Ajokli, Yatwer, Gilgaol, No-God, etc, etc... each making Mimara more or less reliable.

Again, it has to do with perspective. In the scope the everything is defined by the watcher/watched circle, there are two outsides. the one looking in, to the world of Earwa and the one that looks out in space. The God of Gods is not a single entity, he is the sum of the Ciphrang that watch the world, something conceptual. The Solitary God is called that because his is one and alone. He is the outside looking out, the outside surface of a sphere if you will. Everything, including the physical world, the Ciphrang and the God of Gods is a part of him. Mimara sees him looking through the tear of God. The hundred can't see the No God because he is surrounded by tears of God and they can't look outside, only inside.

I am well aware that there is little evidence to base all this besides system theory, and a few comments by the author (like Earwa is a character for example). Since it's one of the few theories i've come up that make some sense though, i am willing to go with it :P.

Except we don't know how Yatwer has been affecting the genetical strings, even though they seem to behave like our world.

Is there even a hint that Yatwer is doing something like that? If not, i propose Santa, as the mastermind behind the genetic mutations, i just like him better than Yatwer. The only little hint there is about genetics has to do with the Inchies. Why do they have to get to Earwa in order to "fix" their little problem with damnation? The only reasonable explanation is that their souls originated there in the first place, and return there when they die. In other words, Inchies and probably Non Men are mutated humans of another age, and the second apocalypse is actually the third :P.

Theory: Earwa is a simulation ;).

Lol, i guess even when trolling i get second place  :'(. But there is still hope. Has anyone suggested that the Nail of Heaven is sentient and has a watcher/watched circuit with Earwa?

Madness

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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2014, 02:58:15 pm »
"It's Somandutta, the one man here she trusts, and only then because he is no man."

I mean look at the choice of words, it seems deliberate to me. Besides, you can't interpret the no man part in many ways, she either talks about gender, or about species. She had no way of knowing either one of them. Even in the context that men are beasts, it doesn't make much sense, why not just remark he isn't a beast like the others? The fact that it came true is also suspect. Of course, nothing is certain with Bakker, he is always vague with his clues as the rectum theory might attest. Still, when he does sneaky stuff like that there is usually a reason for it.

I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.

I think the What Has Come Before is laced with lies. But everyone else seems to oscillate back and forth.

You'd have to give us examples of the authorial comments coming through... What if Mimara is mistaken in her certainty?

I on the other hand think that the what has come before part is told from another perspective. Perspective is the cornerstone of these books. The watcher/narrator in this case isn't a part of the world of Earwa, he is outside of it like the reader. Again, i have to re read the books to relocate the parts that led me to that conclusion. The only one that stuck is about Kellhus becoming insane. Why would he make such a categorical statement? Unless it's from our perspective where the sane view is that the effect follows the cause and not the other way around.

Well, Bakker has said that the TTT Glossary is from the perspective of what is more or less common knowledge at the time of the Holy War. So one cue would be that the further away from the Holy War the less likely it happened as it reads.

But I would say it's comparable to his omnipresent war scenes (which again, doesn't contradict the theory you're chasing but it doesn't automatically support it either).

Maybe... evidence?

Oh come on. The fact that Aka saw the child in a Seswatha dream didn't trigger any alarms at all to you? Even the Consult thinks it's important. There is no hard evidence because Scott doesn't give us any, ever. The bastard.

Lol - well, you quoted what I accept as evidence above with Somandutta. No, there is no reason for me to assume that because Mimara's pregnant, that the baby in Achamian's Dream is automatically related...

Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.

So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).

Lol? What?

The No-God by this description would only be the vacuum for souls - how does it stop new souls coming into the world or the Gods exercising an effect on the world?

That's an easy one, there are no new souls :P. Earwa is eco friendly, the souls are recycled. They leave their memories in the outside and then back in the fray they go. That's why the souls inside the No God want out, they are bored to death.

Specifically, though, your nerdanel has not suggested that the Gods' can't influence the world. You haven't sketched how the No-God's existence cuts of the Outside or how that stops the influence of the Gods.

I get it. I don't buy it but it has internal consistency.

You don't have to buy it, you just have to sing my praises when i am proven right. I am already writing the lyrics to save you some time.

I don't know that I have to do that either :P. But if you predict something, I probably will sing your praises.

I like this description and it kind of explains why Nau-Cayuti might be the most prominent soul within... however, the post doesn't match the internal consistency of the 144, 000 narrative - which is itself inconsistent.

Wutteat, Achamian, and Ganus the Blind all have some idea of 144, 000 as a number of people who survive something. Is it the Apocalypse? What legend does Achamian refer to? Is it something digested from the Inchoroi's own mythos to now human myth?

The reason i don't speculate about the number is that while there are references outside the books, Scott hasn't given us one useful hint about it. That doesn't mean i don't have a few theories of my own, but since they are completely baseless i don't think there is any reason to share them.

This other stuff isn't fairly baseless :P?

Sure, there are endless possibilities, but we have to work with what we do know, and we get the Celmomian prophesy right at the beginning and most importantly we get it directly, not through Seswatha or another middle man.

Right... sorry, you seemed to be making claims about the content of the False Prophecy.

Again, it has to do with perspective. In the scope the everything is defined by the watcher/watched circle, there are two outsides. the one looking in, to the world of Earwa and the one that looks out in space. The God of Gods is not a single entity, he is the sum of the Ciphrang that watch the world, something conceptual. The Solitary God is called that because his is one and alone. He is the outside looking out, the outside surface of a sphere if you will. Everything, including the physical world, the Ciphrang and the God of Gods is a part of him. Mimara sees him looking through the tear of God. The hundred can't see the No God because he is surrounded by tears of God and they can't look outside, only inside.

I am well aware that there is little evidence to base all this besides system theory, and a few comments by the author (like Earwa is a character for example). Since it's one of the few theories i've come up that make some sense though, i am willing to go with it :P.

It's your nerdanel. I don't have to be convinced :).

Except we don't know how Yatwer has been affecting the genetical strings, even though they seem to behave like our world.

Is there even a hint that Yatwer is doing something like that? If not, i propose Santa, as the mastermind behind the genetic mutations, i just like him better than Yatwer. The only little hint there is about genetics has to do with the Inchies. Why do they have to get to Earwa in order to "fix" their little problem with damnation? The only reasonable explanation is that their souls originated there in the first place, and return there when they die. In other words, Inchies and probably Non Men are mutated humans of another age, and the second apocalypse is actually the third :P.

Yatwer is the Goddess of Birth?

Theory: Earwa is a simulation ;).

Lol, i guess even when trolling i get second place  :'(. But there is still hope. Has anyone suggested that the Nail of Heaven is sentient and has a watcher/watched circuit with Earwa?

No, I think that one is all you 8).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:00:14 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2014, 04:28:32 pm »
Quote
Lol, i guess even when trolling i get second place  :'(. But there is still hope. Has anyone suggested that the Nail of Heaven is sentient and has a watcher/watched circuit with Earwa?

That's cool!  The nail of heaven is an eye...and it stares most at Athrithau.

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« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2014, 05:05:57 pm »
"It's Somandutta, the one man here she trusts, and only then because he is no man."

I mean look at the choice of words, it seems deliberate to me. Besides, you can't interpret the no man part in many ways, she either talks about gender, or about species. She had no way of knowing either one of them. Even in the context that men are beasts, it doesn't make much sense, why not just remark he isn't a beast like the others? The fact that it came true is also suspect. Of course, nothing is certain with Bakker, he is always vague with his clues as the rectum theory might attest. Still, when he does sneaky stuff like that there is usually a reason for it.

I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.
[/quote]

When I first read that paragraph, I interpreted it simply as "he's not like other men in her life and experience". (And do you know that this ambiguity would be lost in translation - in most languages words for "male" and "human" are different, so a translator would have to make a decision?)

BTW, what tipped me off that Soma was a skin-spy was something totally different - the smell of myrrh that surrounds him.
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2014, 05:16:04 pm »
I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.

Soma courted her from the very start, he seems to want her, ermmm, physically to every observer there is including the reader. So, even if she intuits that this is an act, there is still something fishy going on. Not that i think she understands where from, and why that thought came into her head. There was no precedent to that conclusion in her POV, it just happened. That's why it's so suspect.

Well, Bakker has said that the TTT Glossary is from the perspective of what is more or less common knowledge at the time of the Holy War. So one cue would be that the further away from the Holy War the less likely it happened as it reads.

But I would say it's comparable to his omnipresent war scenes (which again, doesn't contradict the theory you're chasing but it doesn't automatically support it either).

It's still one less relation to my deductions though, unless in the future Earwa is no longer sentient/ the world follows causality.

Lol - well, you quoted what I accept as evidence above with Somandutta. No, there is no reason for me to assume that because Mimara's pregnant, that the baby in Achamian's Dream is automatically related...

There is, Scott has said that the timing of the dreams is very important, so there :P.

Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.

So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).

Lol? What?

The shame on you part was pure trolling, but the semi serious tone of your answer left me in doubt. Am i trolling or  have i just been counter trolled? So whatever your initial intention was, serious or not, the result was guaranteed. Thus well played ;D.


Specifically, though, your nerdanel has not suggested that the Gods' can't influence the world. You haven't sketched how the No-God's existence cuts of the Outside or how that stops the influence of the Gods.

The Gods are influenced and do influence the world, action and reaction. They are defined by the world that interacts with them and they define it. I don't doubt that. They just can't interact with the surface of the outside because they don't see it, so for them it doesn't exist. As for how the No God replaces the outside, i really don't know, Scott hasn't given the slightest clue about it. Maybe it has to do with distance, maybe there is an engine with great torque somewhere inside it, maybe it was the weather (whirlwind et all). I pm'ed Shae about it and his reply was "mum is the word".

I don't know that I have to do that either :P. But if you predict something, I probably will sing your praises.

See, my plan worked. You may assert your independence, but my suggestion was successfully planted in your brain! Mouhahahahaha!!

This other stuff isn't fairly baseless :P?

It's not completely baseless though, When there is no direct line that connects every cause with its effect you have to draw some lines on your own, but you do need a starting point. Right now i can't find a starting point for that number in the context of the books or even in Scott's little tidbits.

Right... sorry, you seemed to be making claims about the content of the False Prophecy.

I am. As long as we don't get the actual contents of the Consult prophesy i have to infer that said prophesy is the one we witness at the beginning of it all. It's possible that since Celmomas was almost inside the No God when he conveyed Nau-Cayuti's words he had a different perspective then those outside the No God (everyone still alive and able to hear it). So i stand by my view that there is one source but two different interpretations of the same prophesy.

Yatwer is the Goddess of Birth?

Santa bears gifts, life is a gift, kids are a gift :P. Ok, you have a point, i will admit my defeat with dignity, as soon as i find were i've placed it.

No, I think that one is all you 8).

That's good, it's so crazy that it might be true :P

[EDIT]
When I first read that paragraph, I interpreted it simply as "he's not like other men in her life and experience". (And do you know that this ambiguity would be lost in translation - in most languages words for "male" and "human" are different, so a translator would have to make a decision?)

BTW, what tipped me off that Soma was a skin-spy was something totally different - the smell of myrrh that surrounds him.

What tipped me off was that phrase, i didn't make the connection with the smell, good one. As for Mimara's experience with man, as a former prostitute and current princes, she has known every kind of man there is, including men of gentle upbringing like Soma. His approach isn't novel at all, he just tries to win instead of take like the rest of the skin eaters would do. While she the princess in Momemn, many tried that route with her, she thinks as much in her POVs.

You have a point with translations. A Greek translation would be fun though, there is a specific word for a human male (andras, aren) and another word that applies to everything male (arseniko), so that would be a huge tell :). Since this isn't a clue that affects the story much (yes, we scrutinize Bakker even when he coughs, searching for hidden clues, but we are all in need of professional help), i don't think Scott particularly cares, whatever his intention with this line has been.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 09:13:52 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

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« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2014, 09:43:31 pm »
I think that quote suggests that Bakker is playing with the idea of the reader's eventual knowledge that Soma is a skin-spy. But I think Mimara is suggesting she trusts Soma because he's not lusting after her like a man.

Soma courted her from the very start, he seems to want her, ermmm, physically to every observer there is including the reader. So, even if she intuits that this is an act, there is still something fishy going on. Not that i think she understands where from, and why that thought came into her head. There was no precedent to that conclusion in her POV, it just happened. That's why it's so suspect.

I don't think that is super-obvious to every reader. But again, Soma is not openly lusting after her like the rest of the Skin Eaters. That automatically makes him less of a threat than the others.

There is, Scott has said that the timing of the dreams is very important, so there :P.

Conditioned by lies...

Meh... I hope laughing isn't necessarily mocking. I was enjoying the extremes of nerdanel.

So, this is the circuit between the troll and the trolled. I have to admit that i am starting to doubt about my role in it. Well played Madness ;).

Lol? What?

The shame on you part was pure trolling, but the semi serious tone of your answer left me in doubt. Am i trolling or  have i just been counter trolled? So whatever your initial intention was, serious or not, the result was guaranteed. Thus well played ;D.

I'm not completely sure about what trolling means... I'm pretty much deadly serious all the time or I'm 100% joking? I know that doesn't help but trolling doesn't sound like something I would do (just looked up trolling).

The Gods are influenced and do influence the world, action and reaction. They are defined by the world that interacts with them and they define it. I don't doubt that. They just can't interact with the surface of the outside because they don't see it, so for them it doesn't exist. As for how the No God replaces the outside, i really don't know, Scott hasn't given the slightest clue about it. Maybe it has to do with distance, maybe there is an engine with great torque somewhere inside it, maybe it was the weather (whirlwind et all). I pm'ed Shae about it and his reply was "mum is the word".

So... back to the beginning. You attribute the Celmomian Prophecy as Nau-Cayuti speaking from inside the new mini-Outside of the No-God... except that you haven't given a good reason why that same dream/prophecy/message can't legitimately be from the Gods?

See, my plan worked. You may assert your independence, but my suggestion was successfully planted in your brain! Mouhahahahaha!!

Lol. Mayhaps. But I don't believe your inception will come to pass. Nor do I care that you come before me.

Right... sorry, you seemed to be making claims about the content of the False Prophecy.

I am. As long as we don't get the actual contents of the Consult prophesy i have to infer that said prophesy is the one we witness at the beginning of it all. It's possible that since Celmomas was almost inside the No God when he conveyed Nau-Cayuti's words he had a different perspective then those outside the No God (everyone still alive and able to hear it). So i stand by my view that there is one source but two different interpretations of the same prophesy.

... the assumptions are killing me slowly, SOA.

[EDIT]
When I first read that paragraph, I interpreted it simply as "he's not like other men in her life and experience". (And do you know that this ambiguity would be lost in translation - in most languages words for "male" and "human" are different, so a translator would have to make a decision?)

BTW, what tipped me off that Soma was a skin-spy was something totally different - the smell of myrrh that surrounds him.

What tipped me off was that phrase, i didn't make the connection with the smell, good one. As for Mimara's experience with man, as a former prostitute and current princes, she has known every kind of man there is, including men of gentle upbringing like Soma. His approach isn't novel at all, he just tries to win instead of take like the rest of the skin eaters would do. While she the princess in Momemn, many tried that route with her, she thinks as much in her POVs.

Good catch, Alia. That is a line I only noticed after reading WLW. But Esmenet notes that Sarcellus smells of myrrh, I believe, in TDTCB.

SOA, I really don't think Mimara knows about Soma before it's obvious - when he's doing impossible things to protect her. And I'm not sure what you are trying to extend that logic towards?
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