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Messages - BeardFisher-King

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556
General Earwa / Re: Earwan Jokes
« on: April 04, 2017, 09:16:02 pm »
A man, a Nonman, and a Sranc walk into a bar. The bartender says, "What is this, some kinda joke?"

Famous last words (said to a Nonman): "So, how's the wife?"

A cop on the beat happens upon a Nonman beating the holy crap out of some guy outside of a bar. The cop shouts, "Hey, what the hell you doing beating that guy up?" The Nonman stops, turns to the cop and says, "Sorry, officer. I'm just trying to remember where I parked my car."

Never invite a sorcerer to karaoke night. It never ends well.


557
General Earwa / Re: The Great Bakker Review Ordeal
« on: April 04, 2017, 06:51:40 pm »
Did someone mention me?!  Lol though since the first time I have heared this statement I have been looking for them with no success. Wilshire where did you hide them?

Twice now people have brought up that Bakker has "affluent 20-something fans" and "rich and handsome fans." Wilshire and I are looking for their support in promoting Bakker ;).

Maybe it is our intricate and well thought out theories, that lead them to believe that to be the case. I know I sound like a rich, affluent man of high standing, and i would think nothing less of the other posters here at SA. Hey, we're a cut above. :)

Hey, we are cuts and cuts and cuts above!


I'm 37 poor and so ugly sranc wont fuck me.

Nobody is that ugly.

I'm only twenty something for another 2 days, and currently far from handsome and family poor.  But, what I lack in all of those qualities I make up for with silence, lurking, and sub par jokes.

So, a rough in the diamond you are, hmmm? A monkey in the wrench, yes?

558
General Earwa / Re: Bakker AMA on r/fantasy scheduled for April 3rd!
« on: April 04, 2017, 12:59:15 am »
That was pretty excellent!

559
General Misc. / Re: Re-animation of dead threads; damnable?
« on: April 01, 2017, 08:10:24 pm »

H and Madness are great but I get tired to talked to them all the time ;)

I know the feeling. Some people just go on and on and on and on and on......not me, oh no. Well, there was that time....wait, where are you going?

560
General Misc. / Re: Re-animation of dead threads; damnable?
« on: April 01, 2017, 03:44:58 am »
I think I may have found my calling as a necromancer specializing in the re-animation of dead threads. Would this be damnable, or just annoying as hell?

I personally think it's preferable rather than opening more threads on the same topics to ones we already have thread for.

Neither. I've never understood the proscription against reanimating threads. MG, the OG Necromancer, sparked new life in almost a third of the threads he reanimated when he joined. He's also the genius behind the Bakkerfans outlets and received an ARC of TGO last year from Overlook for his efforts.

Be like MG. Raise dead threads.

With that encouragement, I will continue my Slog through the TSA forum. "MG, the OG Necromancer"... you hella funny!

561
General Misc. / Re-animation of dead threads; damnable?
« on: March 31, 2017, 11:13:07 pm »
I think I may have found my calling as a necromancer specializing in the re-animation of dead threads. Would this be damnable, or just annoying as hell?

562
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 31, 2017, 02:58:23 pm »
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

Huh, actually I never  thought much of it other than the imagination of a paranoid child. Remember,  he is scared to death of the WLW in the beginning.
I came to the same conclusion. But we've seen time and again that the obvious explanation isn't necessarily the correct one. I wasn't really until TJE that we got hints of Inrau's inner monologue potentially being God-inspired. Lets hope TUC is enlightening.

Perhaps Samarmas is responsible for that dream....good on him! Get him, Sammi!

563
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 31, 2017, 01:25:08 pm »

Also, we know the moment Koringhus realises the Dunyain mistake: It's the moment he sees his future self laying dead in the canyon, watched by Akka and Mimara. I think seeing himself dead is the reason he may have jumped.


I missed that; kudos on your close reading, Monkhound. I'm not sure that vision answers the  "Why?" of Koringhus' leap, though.

564
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 31, 2017, 03:57:30 am »
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

565
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 30, 2017, 06:46:21 pm »
Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."

The semantics here get real sticky, real quick.  I think I would agree, except that I don't think the Eye is amoral (that is without morals) but rather supra-moral, in the sense they it is beyond human morality, it is actual meta-physical morality itself.

That makes sense in my head, but I think I lack the language to express it.  Perhaps this quote from some random page on the internet:

Quote
The Good is now disengaged, in the fullness of its meaning, more decisively and more forcefully than with Socrates. At the summit of beings and of eternal archetypes, beyond the shadows of becoming, it is the light which nourishes the eternal contemplation of the Gods, whom Plato in the Laws{1} regards as the souls which control the revolution of the Firmament. All that which we call good is so only by participation in this subsistent Good, which is at the same time the sovereign metaphysical Good of the universe, and the ideal moral good of human life, for the most fundamental tendency of Platonic ethics seems to be not, doubtless, to suspend the moral from the supra-moral as Christianity was to do -- that is, as a matter of principle and universally -- but to do so at least for the sage (and for him alone). It is from a supra-morality concerned with the conditions and laws of ascetic and mystical progress toward the Transcendent (and from which are derived the moral virtues in him whom wisdom puts in harmony with divine measures) that the sage descends to the world of men to teach them morality and to make them practice it (if they were not so mad) in governing their political life. The good does not belong to the empirical world, or belongs to it only as a reflection. And our knowledge of the subsistent Good is rather divination than knowledge, because it is beyond everything, even, as we remarked above, beyond being.

So, the Eye is beyond "good" or "evil" and, in fact, that is what gives it it's moral vantage point: being the fount of all morality.  It goes back to Zero, how they zero point is the origin, but also not in the continuum, yet at the same time at all points.

Then again, I am not particularly smart, so maybe this is nonsense.
No, I think that "supra-moral" is the better word, especially since "amoral" has gradually become synonymous with "immoral".

Hey, I'm N.P.S. also! When I discuss philosophy, I'm in the featherweight class.

566
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 30, 2017, 03:00:55 pm »
[
I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

I see where coming from. It could very well be his rejection of Dunyain principles, I'm quite sure it is. But, he only abandoned those principles when he apprehended the JE. So, I say they go hand in hand.

Agreed.

567
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 30, 2017, 02:57:44 pm »
I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

Well, the whole thing is framed at how the Logos (i.e. rational logic, meaning based on logic) is flawed though, right?

So, Koringhus embraces the paradox that the rational thing to do in the face of the unrational (the Eye) is an anti-rational action (suicide)?

Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."


568
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 30, 2017, 02:11:13 pm »
[
Finally, some more food for thought: In rereading the final chapter involving the Survivor, it seems that his "senseless" suicide is actually his embracement of the Darkness that comes before. His leap into the abyss is a freely chosen act which he does for reasons not known to him. It is a rejection of the Logos and of Dûnyain philosophy.

If Koringhus's death was senseless, then what was even the point of showing us him deducing the Zero-God? There is a case, and made by many that Koringhus sees the JE and figures out what really matters. After all, Bakker says Serwe is a sort of cipher for the series, and what Koringhus says is holy is a exact description of her. I would say that is the most important chapter so far in the whole series, as far as showing us the metaphysics of Earwa.

ETA: also, the reason is known to him. He sees that after Mimara forgives him and he understands the JE, the JE  approves of him and he commits suicide because he is free of damnation.

I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

569
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 30, 2017, 01:52:29 pm »
I feel like people see walls of text and then just ignore them. Sigh, I try.

Cheer up, Wilshire. It could be worse. You could be nailed to a wall of text by a particularly argumentative Mekeretrig as was poor Seswatha in the bad old days.

570
The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
« on: March 30, 2017, 12:58:57 am »

My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality?

A few thoughts in response:

1. The Absolute doesn't create a code of morality, it simply recognizes (or perhaps a better word would be illuminates) the objective morality that arises from the actions of men.

2. The Darkness that comes before all men does not necessarily mean that all men are ruled by their inner urges and, hence, there is no free will. It doesn't mean we can't know what moves us; it means we don't know what moves us.

Nice post, Cuttlefish.

1. The idea that the Absolute does not create morality, but rather just comprehends it could be true, but I strongly doubt that it arises from the actions of men. After all, how could it be objective, if it is influenced by men?

2. I think it largely means that they can't control what moves them. The Dunyain know what moves them, and in their folly, they thought that they could control it, but Moenghus flat out confirms that even the Dunyain are still moved by their urges, and Kellhus demonstrates it, I think twice, in the first trilogy and possibly once in the second.

---

Generally, though, the conception of the Absolute as being distinct from divinity creates an interesting possibility: what if Kellhus, or someone else, does actually reach it, and since the Absolute is not bound by anything, and therefore can't be bound by time, it exists all at once? In fact, the ways the Absolute influences the world, if it does at all, could be the product of a causal loop; the Absolute creating Kellhus (or whoever else) so that he can become the Absolute.

When I say that objective morality arises from the actions of men, I mean that any action a man takes can be read from an objective viewpoint. I take the Judging Eye to be just that viewpoint. The actions don't influence the viewpoint, just as a photographic subject doesn't influence the camera. But ethics is a thorny thicket, and I am reluctant to opine much further. I hope that's clearer (but am afraid it's just murkier).

I am also reluctant to equate lack of awareness of what comes before to lack of free will. Kellhus, as the reigning ur- Dûnyain, is still surprised by the actions of others on (rare) occasion. So clearly free will is still in play; Kelmomas demonstrates that quite clearly in the final palace scene of TGO, to the dismay of the Narindar.

Finally, some more food for thought: In rereading the final chapter involving the Survivor, it seems that his "senseless" suicide is actually his embracement of the Darkness that comes before. His leap into the abyss is a freely chosen act which he does for reasons not known to him. It is a rejection of the Logos and of Dûnyain philosophy.

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