[TGO Spoilers] Kelmomas Skills

  • 48 Replies
  • 26010 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Simas Polchias

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Consult Fanboy
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
« on: July 14, 2016, 02:09:09 am »
I was kinda confused about little Kel and his ability to mess with WLW powers; had to made a soothing theory.

1) We knows gods are blind to certain things: No-God existence, Consult plans etc. There is guess that Tekne makes borders of gods' blindspot and, more specifically, it's distinctive product -- intelligence, which lacks "proper" concience or "enough" complexity. Correct me if I wrong here, please.
2) Kelmomas mother had a very close contact with Tekne, I mean than identity theft of Kellhus by Aurang.
3) Being of Kellhus children, Kel is a broken dunyain thing, which by itself has a certain taste of near-Tekne experience.
4) His POVs are all about personality problems, about rule "one head, one voice" being constantly violated.

So at least I reckon Kelmomas is somehow hidden from Gods eyesight thanks to a combination of few factors listed above. At most -- his metaphysical position is symmetricaly opposed to WLW. Either way, boy can fuck up other's plans, especially if they are godly.

PS That can be a possible answer to a question why Kellhus didn't drowned him in the first place.
PPS Dunno now, if Ajokli is an actual trickster god or it's a placeholder name for a sum of gods' debility manifested in the world.
PPPS What have I done. -.-

Seomus

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 15
  • Author
    • View Profile
    • JMD Reid's Blog
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2016, 03:06:44 am »
I was thinking Kelmomas being invisible to the WLW, and thus Yatwar, had to do with him having two souls. But then I read some good stuff on Kel being a nanidar for Ajolki. Bakker did go out of his way to remind us of Kel killing the beetle before Ajolki's altar which on the surface seems like just a way to show Kel's personality when introducing him, but now we are given hints that it is far more important, else why did Bakker bring it back up?

I think Kel is a defective. Most of his siblings appear defective in some ways. I don't think it has anything to do with Tekne. Kellhus would likely have noticed any of flaw in her potential and wouldn't have bred with her.
“A non-writing writer is a monster courting insanity."
--Franz Kafka

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2016, 10:34:24 am »
I pitched a theory here in the ARC subforum that perhaps the Gods are actually blind to self-moving souls.  I don't think it has too much to do with being deffective, even though I do have a feeling that Moe, Kellhus, Koringhus, Kel, etc. are in fact all defective in some way, not to mention Inrilatas.

The idea I had was that since to Gods are essentially the Darkness the Comes Before, then they can see the whole chain of cause and effect that guides the world.  Kellhus is outside that though, as are other self-moving souls, because they are part the Darkness.  I think this is a reason why the Gods are also blind to the Consult and to the No-God as well.

This doesn't preclude that Kel might be "God-entangled" with Ajolki though, but could just be supplemental.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Seomus

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 15
  • Author
    • View Profile
    • JMD Reid's Blog
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2016, 12:05:22 pm »
I pitched a theory here in the ARC subforum that perhaps the Gods are actually blind to self-moving souls.  I don't think it has too much to do with being deffective, even though I do have a feeling that Moe, Kellhus, Koringhus, Kel, etc. are in fact all defective in some way, not to mention Inrilatas.

The idea I had was that since to Gods are essentially the Darkness the Comes Before, then they can see the whole chain of cause and effect that guides the world.  Kellhus is outside that though, as are other self-moving souls, because they are part the Darkness.  I think this is a reason why the Gods are also blind to the Consult and to the No-God as well.

This doesn't preclude that Kel might be "God-entangled" with Ajolki though, but could just be supplemental.

If the gods are blind to Kellhus then how did the WLW predict Kellhus would be in the throne room at that moment? It was Kelmomas that changed the WLW vision of the future, not Kellhus.
“A non-writing writer is a monster courting insanity."
--Franz Kafka

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2016, 12:26:46 pm »
If the gods are blind to Kellhus then how did the WLW predict Kellhus would be in the throne room at that moment? It was Kelmomas that changed the WLW vision of the future, not Kellhus.

I would imagine that if I am correct (and mind you, I am probably not) that "blind to" more probably means unable to see clearly, or properly read the chain of cause and effect and extrapolate that to fully predict the future.  Then again, perhaps you are right, that Yatwer had the right of it and only Kel saved him and so from there everything else is beyond what could have been anticipated.

I do wonder though, going all the way back, why are the Gods blind to the Consult?  The theory was an attempt to possibly reconcile that.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2016, 02:15:37 pm »
Quote from: H
I do wonder though, going all the way back, why are the Gods blind to the Consult?  The theory was an attempt to possibly reconcile that.

Does it say anywhere in the text that the Gods are blind to the Consult? The No-God? Yes. Skin-spies? Yes, they have no soul. Anything related to the Tekne? I'd assume. But the Consult specifically? I don't know that the Gods have to be, unless the Consult has worked out some trick like the Torturer tried in Ishterebinth with that room that he thought would escape their gaze. It could be that the Ark is essentially made by the Tekne and alien, then it's a sort of a shield from the Gods.

ETA: question - if the Gods are blind to the Consult, then how are they even damned?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 02:17:31 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2016, 02:45:35 pm »
Quote from: H
I do wonder though, going all the way back, why are the Gods blind to the Consult?  The theory was an attempt to possibly reconcile that.

Does it say anywhere in the text that the Gods are blind to the Consult? The No-God? Yes. Skin-spies? Yes, they have no soul. Anything related to the Tekne? I'd assume. But the Consult specifically? I don't know that the Gods have to be, unless the Consult has worked out some trick like the Torturer tried in Ishterebinth with that room that he thought would escape their gaze. It could be that the Ark is essentially made by the Tekne and alien, then it's a sort of a shield from the Gods.

ETA: question - if the Gods are blind to the Consult, then how are they even damned?

I don't know, but if they weren't, wouldn't they anecdotally know about the No-God and the plan to deny them their bread?  The seems like something they'd be upset about.

I am probably drawing conclusions too far and off of too little, maybe they just never bother to look?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MisterGuyMan

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • Posts: 80
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2016, 05:47:43 pm »
Ajokli is protecting and guiding Kelmomas.  When the WLW kills the Narindar, the assassin says Ajokli sees things the other Gods do not.  Presumably a trickster of the Gods is able to hide and fool them as well.

There's also clear evidence that Kelmomas has a measure of the White Luck in that moment:
Quote
He would help-Yes!  He would distract Father.  Yes!  That was his role.  That was how it had already happened.   He could feel it, somehow like an oracular density in his bones.
Ajokli gets even more props for tricking the guy that wants Kellhus dead the most to serve as his unwitting savior.  The Four Horned Brother is one cool cat.

Simas Polchias

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Consult Fanboy
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2016, 07:27:08 pm »
ETA: question - if the Gods are blind to the Consult, then how are they even damned?

1) The separation of powers? Thas goes nicely with the fractured nature of the solitary god.
One is invisible for gods, who develop laws and eat criminals as a food. One is rather visible for most of the laws (damnation, mortality, sequacity for sorcery and causality, gravitation, topoisation etc), though can cheat like Shauritas. One is sooo visible for those, whose duty is to force law (ciphrangs are undergods, their domains of stength and weakness should differ from the big players).
Let's say, gods just have a problem to recognize a certain big problem and to issue a special quick solution. But that doesn't guarantee "full methaphysical immunity", for such creature will fall right through the creation. Like, you know, Jules Verne's invisible men is impossible -- for his eyes are insivible too and so he's blind, immune to the light iself.

2) Damnation is a legacy of solitary god and the Hundred are just survivors trying to make their living?

PS Crackpot: whole Tekne invisibility is not abysmall system bug; just a fresh blasphemy when there is no competent shaman, priest, sorcerer etc to snitch the concept to the Hundreds.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 07:55:38 pm by Simas Polchias »

Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 01:02:06 pm »
The gods are finite, therefore they have limits including to their perception.  The non-men attempt exploit this with the chamber of thresh-holds. The specific example is that they cannot see past the No-god's victory so no Unerring Grace, prophets, earthquakes etc.

There is no suggested connection between the Judgment and the hundred.  They collect the harvest of damnation - and they can intercede - rather than dictate it's terms.

Recall that the Aspect Emperor begins with Kelmomas attracted to Ajokli's idol directly after his whelming? But Kelmomas never even thinks about the whelming itself, which was conducted by Khellus himself.
It's frankly pretty awesome when lil Kel is reflecting on the nature of Ajokli as a deciever, because it lamp-shades exactly how he gets played as a stooge. Add the fact that Khellus leaves the empire in Esmenet's hands, and she is the only thing that motivates lil Kel, I think we can see that Ajokli and Khellus are both involved in thwarting Yatwer.

Now, I have long held the belief that Kelmomas was annointed by Ajokli, but we collect another intesting Ajokli tidbit in Akka's penultimate dream. The Celmoman Prophecy.  When Akka-as-Celmomas sees the four-horned mounted figure - Ajokli - in the vision. His descendant come to end the world?

Khellus has been Outside and he has seen beyond the Thousandfold Thought. He knows he is irrevocably damned. He has had the same revelations as the Survivor.  But we also learn that strong souls can become demons. My thought is that Khellus will ascend and become Ajokli causing all the temporal nuttiness like his visions and the Celmoman prophecy to be enacted via the temporal powers of the hundred.
It's the only way he can avoid damnation without turning to the consult, imo.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 953
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2016, 10:25:54 pm »
The non-man used the "Thresholds" to hide from the gods, is the labyrinth built by Kellhus and inhabited by little Kel the same sort of idea?

Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2016, 04:57:18 am »
I think the "inner palace" was actually a creation of the Nansur dynasties.

But no, you see how effective the Threshholds were to the direct scrutiny of Yatwer. i.e. not very.  At any rate, hiden places would be Ajokli's thing - God of Deciet and all that.

Of course Ajokli's chosen benjuka pieces are different from Yatwer's - the fact is that Kelmomas is both aspected by Ajokli and completely deceived about it.  He can only counter the White Luck because of this.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 953
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2016, 06:03:43 am »
Nah Kellhus built it. Esme says as much and little Kel wonders what happened to all the slaves that built it.  I read it in White Luck Warrior last night then read your post and the thought came :)








Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2016, 08:17:57 am »
Well, it could well be in that case. 
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 953
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2016, 08:31:37 am »
the chapter headers with the rules of  benjuka are interesting. There are no "moves" just changing the rules and the players (elements of the game).  which ties in with no one having agency and the gods using their pieces as you state above.

I know so little about philosophy I always just feel like i'm talking nonsense when i try and work stuff out :)