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Messages - Blackstone

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1
I'm honestly baffled by contentions like:

"Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas. "

What final wedge? Kellhus wanted Kelmomas released that's why he told esmi not to do it, that's why throughout the series half-dunyain have been telling esmi they wont say what kellhus would do because of the sum of the grudge she has against him and that would make her do just the opposite. It's why in the passage Kellhus tells her we get Akka's point of view and he can see how much esmi hates Kellhus.

I guess we just have different interpretations of what the end of story actually was, which obviously gives us different conclusions.
By final wedge, I mean Kelmomas killing Sorweel was what caused Kellhus to chain up Kelmomas. Then Kelmomas escapes, eventually is found by the skin spy, and ends up in the golden room. Had Sorweel's death not served that one small purpose, he as a character would have had no impact on the end story.

What did Kellhus tell Esmi not to do?

I'll admit to only reading an ARC, but it seems unlikely that the published version differs.

2
I never thought TUC would be the ending. Just a major point near the end of the series that he liked and if the worst happen, won't mind to stop or at least rest at for some time. I don't want to appear like a know-it all elitist but, the forum is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Before I bought the then released 5 books of the series, I googled a bit and found out that Bakker is planning a third sub series. That was 2014, nothing new. While I was reading PoN I "guessed" that the NG have to be resurrected successfully at some point and the Consult have to win ( at least momentarily)  somehow. So, I didn't detest the ending at all. Despite what Bakker said ( or at least how it was mostly interpreted) .and tbh, this whole sub series thing hurt Bakker far more than it helped him. It would have been better if TSA was the official name of the books and it was one whole big series with Bakker giving the sub series names unofficially rather than what we got.

My issue isn't with how it ended. I'm perfectly fine with the Unholy Consult winning and the resurrection.

Edit - This was a series. PoN was a series and I was satisfied by the beginning, middle, and end. All of the threads were drawn together and had some impact on each other. TAE was a series and the same cannot be said for all the threads. Most of them were irrelevant.

3

Fair enough.

I do think some of the defense of TUC is leaning a bit too heavily toward slavish acceptance of poor plotting and unclear writing being accepted as just a stylistic choice but to each their own.


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Yes. I would agree with that. Because I don't feel at all satisfied. The Momemn story line was pointless, other than to set up Kelmomas. Meppa was unnecessary to the entire 4 book series, other than to give some sort of conflict to the Momemn storyline. I think better plotting could have cut 90% of that out of the book.

Malowebi was only useful as a POV to counterbalance the above.

Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas.

The Ishterebinth sections were ultimately a non-factor. Some Non-men showed up at the end, but I'm guessing there were four pages at most (don't have the book handy to check) of them battling.

The Scylvendi were a non-factor. They never attacked the GO in a meaningful way.

Mimara and Achamian did nothing. She didn't even apprehend Kellhus with the Judging Eye, which would have offered some insight into Kellhus. And some sort of bold, heroic action on her part would have quashed all the people that cry misogyny. But had they never showed up at the battle, nothing would have changed.

I point all this out because it reflects poor plotting. The fact that none of the above came to nothing or very little is what makes me feel like this book fizzled.

I loved the series. I "liked" the book insomuch as it wrapped up the story. It was ultimately a letdown, because I feel like a lot of decisions were made to draw out the series for more books and more money (a la George RR Martin). It's not enough that huge sections of the book are just "enjoyable to read." They need to have some sort of purpose to justify their existence or the whole thing just looks like loose plotting.

The biggest writing peeve that I had was the figurative language. It was overused to the point of distraction and was sometimes completely nonsensical.
He didn't so much seethe as become a macabre specter of dashed hopes and dreams.

4
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Inchoroi souls
« on: July 31, 2017, 02:27:33 am »
I think they definitely have souls. It does seem counterintuitive to land a bunch of souled beings on a planet where you are trying to eliminate souls, but the value of their fervor would outweigh that I suppose.

5
Quote from:  Dunkeheilt
I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does.

I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.

I agree. It seems a given that Kel has two souls.

Didn't RSB say in the q&a it was more to do with a lack of identity rather than a surfeit?
Yeah, a soul lacking an identity. Kellhus said something about how the darkness ruled him. Maybe that's it? Maybe Kel's soul is so damaged that he in some way has become the darkness before him, collapsing subject and object, becoming the No-God.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with him becoming the No-god. My interpretation was that it was the actual magnitude of the soul that animated the carapace. Nau-Cayuti was a soul of great magnitude, and he animated the carapace. If I recall, there was nothing indicating that NC was twin souled. I assumed the same of Kelmomas (or if it had come to it, Kellhus).

6
There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

7
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

I don't have my book with me right now, sorry. It wasn't explicit, but I'm referring to her getting salted. The hundred chorea appeared as if it was being taken out a pouch. Invisible chorea in a pouch? Sounds a lot like what a certain Sorweel was carrying around, right? It got kicked away and ignored, but who was the one person who saw it? Kelmomas. I only got it after Kel appeared in the gold room, which was probably when I was supposed to get I'm guessing. So while his appearance was a big surprise, no doubt, it wasn't completely out of nowhere.

It could be. It's just something to speculate about, and I don't particularly like the need to speculate on a TON of things at the conclusion of a series, and I feel like that's what I'm left with. It feels like Robert Jordan-esque shit.

8

Don't know the page number but when she is fighting the dragon, someone uses one of the pouches to conceal a chorae from her. In the gloassary it states emilidis made 5 of them and they are called orthonganols (at 90 degrees) or something.

So looks like the poster is inferring a skin spy went and got the pouch sorweel dropped when Kel murdered him and then the skinspy or kel was the one responsible for serwe getting her right arm salted off.

Ah. Just one of those things we can only speculate about:)

9
Look closely at what Bakker said:
Quote
Um, Kellhus is no baby.
Do you see what I see?
Quote
Kellhus is no baby.
Look closer.
Quote
no baby.

Kellhus is the No-Baby.

Ha ha ha ha. Nice!

10
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

I was answering the original post which was (see below) this is a different issue.

". As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]). "

I didn't realise there was a debate how he got there? I also thought it was explained.

I can understand it lessening enjoyment if you felt it was "cheap". I personally hate the end of TGO, when Kellhus goes into the Fanim camp and acts all weird, least favourite bit of the whole series for me.

I don't know that there was a debate on how he got there. I just saw some people pondering it, and that seems the most probable way for him to get there. That's why I say, that's probably how he got there. My issue was the way that he just disappeared in the chapter where he meets the skin spy, and reappears just in time to foil Kellhus's master plan.

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

11
Blackstone, what up my friend? Nice to see you around here again. To your point on how Kel ends up in the Golden room. Well, a Skin-Spy who looked like Esme came to him and took him to the throne room, i thought this obvious.

tleilaxu, DEM= dues ex machina
Hey, buddy!

Yeah, I am sure that's how it happened. The fact that it all happened off screen seems a little weak, but that's not the point. His appearance at the end to defeat Kellhus is what could be considered DEM. I'm not sure it bothers me, but I think that's what it could most accurately be described as.

Ah, that was kinda obvious in hindsight... Thanks.
You non-Americans and your hatred of acronyms ;)

12
I don't understand why some of you guys expected everything to explicit and detailed answers to everything in the first place  ;)
Also, what does DEM mean? It's funny how you can identify Americans by their excessive use of abbreviations.

Deus Ex Machina (DEM) it was the title of the thread so I thought it would be obvious. My bad.

I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

A skinspy collected him the night before,after esmi released him. I assume they then went to the Arc hours before any fighting

Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

13
I have to say that I was disappointed as well. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but it answered only a few of my lingering questions, created many more, and genuinely seemed to "fizzle" as some people pointed out. I think every storyline except the Ordeal was superfluous to the story being told. Nothing in the four novels except the existence of Kelmomas mattered at the end of the book. This makes be think it was just filler. The same can't be said of the first trilogy, and it has taken the place as my favorite of his writings after the disappointing ending of TUC (which is the weakest book in the series in terms of both writing and narrative [my opinion]).

I don't think the ending is DEM, because as some have pointed out, the whole point of the series was the resurrection of the No-god. I do think, a person could make a valid argument that the appearance of Kelmomas was DEM. A powerful being shows up at the end to defeat (usually) the antagonist...in this case the antagonist is Kellhus (and perhaps he was meant to be the antagonist all along). As was pointed out, it's never really explained how Kelmomas got up into the highest levels of the arc (was he shown the way through a series of hidden doors? Probably. The fact that it has to be debated at the end of book means there's an issue [my opinion]).

It seems to me that, as Bakker has himself said, this concludes the ending of the story he originally conceived of as a teen, the story is lacking. I was told "just wait, the stripper thong will shoot across the room." But I don't feel that way. I will read the next series, but I don't feel the fanaticism that I felt following the conclusion of the other six books in this series. I think the only real question that was answered for me was: what is the No-god? Seems obvious now when I look back.

14
The Unholy Consult / Re: The Unholy Consult Giveaway
« on: June 01, 2017, 04:50:28 pm »
Kellhus will become the No-God. As Mimara and Achamian join the GO, the No-Kellhus takes the field and the Judging Eye beholds that NK is not damned, but is in fact salvation. The No-Kellhus closes Earwa to the outside, destroys the Consult, and sets himself as the ACTUAL living god that his followers believe that he is, perhaps in the 1000 year reich mode. The final duology will contend with the fight against the No-Kellhus.

15
TGO ARC Discussion / Re: Momemn
« on: June 17, 2016, 05:11:14 pm »
Fun little aside as I was rummaging through WLW, from chapter 5:
Quote from: Theliopa
I'm not sure surprise-surprise is a passion I can feel, Mother.
TGO, chapter 16, emphasis mine:
Quote
Theliopa stumbled, looked up in pallid alarm, then vanished in slumping shadows of stone brick debris.
A part of me hopes that deep down, she was pleased to put that question to rest.
Poor Theli.

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