[TUC Spoilers] Ramblings of a Broken Soul

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Artaios

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« on: July 29, 2017, 10:56:58 pm »
So I have just finished The Unholy Consult and registered on this forum and thought I'd talk about some of the things that don't completely make sense to me. This is going to be a bit disjointed as I have been writing this piecemeal while waiting for confirmation of my account. I apologize for the disjointedness of this post. At this point, I'd also like to take the opportunity to express my anger at Scott (seemingly) killing off Kellhus. He is hands down my favorite character in the series. Anyone else really dislike Achamian? (I am not saying that any of this is bad writing.)

To put things a bit more into context. I was born 1988 and as far as fantasy is concerned, I grew up with Lord of the Rings and have also been reading stories that have important human themes (raise your hand if you do not get the reference). I have started reading fantasy (and some SciFi) books again in recent years. Notable series are The Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Kingkiller Chronicle, and the two Malazan main series (probably my favorite to date). The Gentlemen Bastards was also a fun read. I hated The Magicians, by the way.

Anyway, I have seen some people implying that there is a chance of Kellhus being alive. That is, his actual physical body surviving the chorae attack. I have not seen any of that in the book and the Zeum sorcerer's point of view clearly states him seeing Kellhus' salted body. Granted, he may have been deceived somehow but is there any direct indication that Kellhus actually survived?

I have also seen someone mention the "head on the pole" passage somehow being related to Kellhus' continued existence on Earwa. I honestly did not get that part at all and was wondering if someone could explain the head on the pole sequence and how it relates to him surviving or being reborn etc.

The scenes with Kelmomas and the two (other) instances of the White-Luck Warrior have been bugging me a bit. I feel like the author has either written himself into a corner in regard to the Dunyain's capabilities (making them too powerful to fail) or he did this on purpose to set something up that has yet to be revealed (likely). In their first encounter we see Kellhus surviving because Kelmomas cries out to them and I would think that Kellhus can calculate what would have happened if Kelmomas had not. (In addition to Kellhus seeming to be SURPRISED by Kelmomas appearing in both instances.) When Kelmomas killed Sorweel, Kellhus did not notice that he was trying to take out the chorae (not sure if he succeeded in taking it out but he would have at least noticed the movement) and this, in combination with Kelmomas being involved a second time in a to him unusual-seeming incident (considering that he cannot see the WLW/WLW's actions), seems completely out of character based on what we know of Kellhus' abilities. It is also suspicious that he told Esmenet where he chained up Kelmomas. He simply MUST have known and wanted that Esmenet free him. Anything else does not make any sense given his clearly demonstrated predictive capabilites. Why would he want that? Clearly so that Kelmomas would be free to act again in the future. Chaining him up seemed to have been simply one way to extricate Kelmomas from the situation since him remaining in the tent could have resulted in a confrontation with Serwe and others. It was also a way of making Kelmomas oblivious to the fact that Kellhus wants him free and obviously influencing him in a very specific way. In all of this I assume that Kelmomas was some other god's White-Luck and this is why Yatwer could not see him. Everything seems to point to Ajokli but this defeats my whole point of Kelmomas unwittingly working for Kellhus and against Ajokli. I am sure this is not the only flaw in my reasoning though. I somehow do not buy Kelmomas being the No-God though.

By the way, why was the skin spy suddenly free to move his hand and what happened to Kellhus' god-like reflexes and situational awareness? Why do people on this forum say that Kelmomas appearing at the end exorcized/paralyzed Ajokli? My impression was that Ajokli himself was salted (Ajokli in Kellhus' body at least). Is it eisegesis or am I missing something?

Surely it is no coincidence that Moenghus ended up with Cnaiur and planned by Kellhus/Serwa. What do you think? Why were we shown interactions between Kelmomas and The People? Has anyone gleaned anything from that?

Also, was anyone else disappointed by lack-luster entrance of the Inchoroi? They seemed to be very powerful beings when they interacted with humans in previous books and I fully expected them to be in charge of the Consult. Maybe I just did not pay enough attention to the creation and history of the Consult though. This was most likely done intentionally by Scott but I still would have liked to see more from at least Aurax--even when facing almighty Kellhus.

Just one point concerning Bakker himself. While I do not know anything about his personal beliefs, one thing I like is that they seemingly do not interfere with him telling a good story. While I really like the Malazan universe, this is something that has bothered me about Steven Erikson at times. Anyone else familiar with both authors and the inclination to comment on this?

What is the Canon Artifact?

What happened to the skin-spy with a soul? Was it Fake Serwe?

And lastly the greatest mystery of all: Why were Kellhus' daughters not born as (Half) Whales?

[Wilshire Edit: Changed title to include spoiler warning]
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 12:46:33 pm by Wilshire »

themerchant

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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 11:06:54 pm »
Canon Artifact is a shop bought version of The Unholy Consult, madness was a beta-reader for Bakker so he got to read TUC as drafts not as a finished product.

Skin-spy with a soul was incapacitated by Maithanet and then we never saw it again.

Kelemonas was the no-god that's why the gods couldn't see him.

Bhaal

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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 12:37:52 am »
Hey Artaois,

in the Great Ordeal there is a scene with Kellhus being in Hell, a head on a pole behind him, and apparently talking to a ciphrang (Cnauir according to my suspicions) who tells Kellhus he has been here before. If I am guessing correctly, the Outside is privy to past, present and future, meaning the denizens of the Outside, including Gods, Ciphrang and whoever else is there, can see all events. So there might be a time paradox with Kellhus's soul, if you recall in TGO Kellhus sees himself in his dreams without the haloes. That Kellhus without the haloes could be future Kellhus, there is that wacky theory.

As for Kelmomas, there is this theory that he is twin-souled and Bakker has said in the Q&A that the crux of the issue was the lack of identity of Kel if I remember correctly.

If you recall, at the end, Ajokli possessed Cnaiur and was angry that Kellhus cheated him somehow and could not find him in Hell (because if he did, he would have a hell of a time). There is a theory in this forum that the dream Kellhus has with the tree and his version without the haloes might be his sanctuary from Hell, we will see about this one.

I think that Kellhus prepared contigencies for being possessed by Ajokli and Kelmomas interfering.

We were shown Kelmomas from the eyes of a Scylvendi who died mainly because that is a writerly techniqe to show us some important action without getting in the heads of the important characters in that scene - in this case the skin spy as Esmenet and Kelmomas, plus the scene acting as a red herring because the boy there could have been Crabicus.

Hope this gives you some clarity.

boneclinkz

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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 02:00:14 am »
I view Kellhus as less of a character and more of a setting in the first three books of the Aspect Emperor series. He's the ground upon which the other characters walk. When he is kept remote and inscrutable, it makes the sequences where he gets directly involved that much more profound. But more to the point, his story IS the story of the Great Ordeal, so I expected him to transform one way or another at the end of TUC. I am fine with the way he ended up, it's the ambiguity with the other main characters that rankled.

Purrball

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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 02:01:06 am »
I really like Achamian? He's my favorite character. I hope he has an important role to play in the next series.

Only thing I can add is I don't think it was planned that Moe ended up with the Scylvendi, at least not by Kelhus. Serwe left him die, believing him broken. Serwe and Kayutas seem very human.

Madness

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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 03:10:16 pm »
So I have just finished The Unholy Consult and registered on this forum and thought I'd talk about some of the things that don't completely make sense to me. This is going to be a bit disjointed as I have been writing this piecemeal while waiting for confirmation of my account.

...

To put things a bit more into context. I was born 1988 and as far as fantasy is concerned, I grew up with Lord of the Rings and have also been reading stories that have important human themes (raise your hand if you do not get the reference).

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Artaios. I hope you didn't have to wait too long to have your account approved.

'88 babies! High five ;)!

Canon Artifact is a shop bought version of The Unholy Consult, madness was a beta-reader for Bakker so he got to read TUC as drafts not as a finished product.

Thanks, Madness translator ;).

I view Kellhus as less of a character and more of a setting in the first three books of the Aspect Emperor series. He's the ground upon which the other characters walk. When he is kept remote and inscrutable, it makes the sequences where he gets directly involved that much more profound. But more to the point, his story IS the story of the Great Ordeal, so I expected him to transform one way or another at the end of TUC.

I like this. It hits on some stuff on Bakker's blog by himself and Benjamin Cain about the post-human resembling a force of nature rather than any sort of personal identity as we're wont delineate them now.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 11:36:35 am »
Just one point concerning Bakker himself. While I do not know anything about his personal beliefs, one thing I like is that they seemingly do not interfere with him telling a good story. While I really like the Malazan universe, this is something that has bothered me about Steven Erikson at times. Anyone else familiar with both authors and the inclination to comment on this?
Btw, of those you listed, I have not read Wheel of Time or Game of Thrones, but I really enjoyed all the others you listed (yes, including Magicians, sorry ;) ). I pretty recently finished  Malazan, and would probably rank Erikson way up near the top of personal favorite fantasy authors (in the company of Rothfuss), but Bakker remains solidly alone at the top.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning. Both authors (Erikson/Bakker) have clear influences from the 'other life' - ie Bakker was a philosophy professor/student, Erikson an archaeologist of some kind. These things shaped the worlds they created. I don't know much beyond that as far as the personal belief systems of each, so I don't think I can help you much there without some more detail.

Welcome to the forum, btw, and great post :) .
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 12:34:24 pm »
Welcome Artaois.

I'll address a bit of your questions about Kelmomas. I like some of your ideas about him, he's definitely a pawn and we can't be sure how Kellhus views him.

But perhaps it might help to think of him as being a very unruly portion of causality - interfering and being manipulated by several forces in manners that transcend causality. Yatwer's White-Luck should ensure certain events, as does his apparent relationship with Ajokli and his destiny as the No-god. Kellhus would have had to plan around these factors without betraying knowledge of them, helping here and hindering there. If that was the case, it's impossible to know and we won't find out until the final series.

My thought is that he was Ajokli's Narindar and the Four Horned Brother wanted the Apocalypse to proceed, but as it stands that is also just a theory.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.