[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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MSJ

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« Reply #210 on: November 06, 2017, 05:51:22 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.

Well, I would never expect butterflies and rainbows. Why would man defeating TNG be butterflies and rainbows? I couldn't see anything but a hard fought, winning by luck type of thing, can anyone say Mimara?

Yea, and there are a million stories in the universe. But, only one going forward. The NG is either destroyed or you have a bunch of stories of how fu king awful the world dying is. That's it. As someone said before, asking Bakker to do anything but man winning out and so it well, will be a first. If that's the case, TUC should be been the end. Of, he'll do the impossible and make it somewhat worthy of a read. Which would be a high task to have 3 books of the dying if the world.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #211 on: November 06, 2017, 05:59:52 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.

Well, I would never expect butterflies and rainbows. Why would man defeating TNG be butterflies and rainbows?
It would LITERALLY be butterflies and rainbows and unicorns because that would defeat the whole purpose of Meaning dying and pull us right back into the comfy-but-also-extremely-awful World with objectively real Gods/morals. Not to mention that Eschaton is an inherent property of this world. The way I see it right now, either the God itself will kill humanity (lol) or the No-God is causally predestined to succeed at some point.
 

TaoHorror

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« Reply #212 on: November 06, 2017, 06:31:29 pm »
I have no expectation for the next books, only that I want to read them. Additional clarity on the ending of TUC would be cool ( for which Bakker may lean on a prologue to help clear some things and catch the reader up ), but not a demand - I'll take TNG read as it's delivered on it's own terms. It comes down to trust in the author - and I trust he'll deliver a winner. If I'm to guess ( i.e. not a wish ), he'll show us a possible human reaction to crashspace for which we may well entertain ourselves if he's accurately describing today's events.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #213 on: November 06, 2017, 07:45:04 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.

Well, I would never expect butterflies and rainbows. Why would man defeating TNG be butterflies and rainbows? I couldn't see anything but a hard fought, winning by luck type of thing, can anyone say Mimara?

It wouldn't have to be. As I thought about it more in that post, I came to the conclusion farther down that it could be done within the bounds of the story - I'd just be disappointed, which is not the same thing as the story being ruined lol. (I get the feeling you only read about half my post :( ).

Yea, and there are a million stories in the universe. But, only one going forward.

I feel you're being a bit unimaginative.
The entire series could take place over the course of a week and we could be no closer to knowing if NG was winning or not.
Or it could skip around in time.
We've tons of characters to check back up on. Again, think of Erikson's Malazan.
Prequels!
There's more than one way to tell a story, and far more than one story to tell.

FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.

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TaoHorror

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« Reply #214 on: November 06, 2017, 07:49:06 pm »
FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.

Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.
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MSJ

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« Reply #215 on: November 06, 2017, 08:03:11 pm »
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.

Wait, you just said that the survival from the TNG would be rainbows, butterflies and unicorns....

Why can't the NG and the Gods die and there still be humanity? Why, some claim, that's the very world we live in.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #216 on: November 06, 2017, 08:11:08 pm »
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.

Wait, you just said that the survival from the TNG would be rainbows, butterflies and unicorns....

Why can't the NG and the Gods die and there still be humanity? Why, some claim, that's the very world we live in.

I have trouble imagining both, but we know NG has a timer so presumably there is a post-NG-world either way, right?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #217 on: November 06, 2017, 08:20:24 pm »
FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.

Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.

You're so literal :P. I mean't "final fate" as "what happens regarding whether or no the NG is successful and if the Gods are shut out forever". I would assume that either way Earwa continues to exist in some form, regardless of who wins,.
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MSJ

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« Reply #218 on: November 06, 2017, 08:23:10 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
I feel you're being a bit unimaginative.
The entire series could take place over the course of a week and we could be no closer to knowing if NG was winning or not.
Or it could skip around in time.
We've tons of characters to check back up on. Again, think of Erikson's Malazan.
Prequels!
There's more than one way to tell a story, and far more than one story to tell.

FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.

Oh yes, the boy wondering through the wilderness, Bakker Magnus opus on philosophy. And, who do we have to go back to but those that where there at the end? Momemn, doesn't exist anymore. Everyone of our characters converged on the Ark. Death of Meaning, doesn't mean the death of humanity. In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.

I did read your whole post, that little toss in at the end didn't convince me. ;)

Bakker said what he wanted to do was set out and give a story where a meaningful world becomes meaningless. We're not even there yet. Sorcery still works, the Outside is not shut. If, what he wanted to do was show the crash space and the end of meaning, he did a pretty good job with TUC with that. I don't know what else you would need to add. In fact, if there is no hope for humanity, writing post resumption, would probably ruin the series. Because, then it becomes a philosophical circle-jerk. Ask Erikson how well that worked out for him. Prequel? Sure. Lots and lots I would love to read about. I'm sure ill read whatever is TNG. But, if what you believe is what we'll be reading, Bakker has set his self a high bar.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

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« Reply #219 on: November 06, 2017, 08:33:21 pm »
Quote
We've tons of characters to check back up on.

To me, there is only one character I care about at this point and that is Achamian.

As for the final fate of Earwa, yea I think an uncertain future type ending would make sense.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #220 on: November 06, 2017, 08:48:32 pm »
Because, then it becomes a philosophical circle-jerk.
I would expect Bakker to specifically avoid this at all costs. Him writing the third series with that mentality interests me greatly.

Plot-wise, I'm ambivalent about the fate of the characters, humanity, Earwa, Outside, etc. I would like to see Bakker taking his lines of thought further. So far, with "The Aspect-Emperor" as compared to "The Prince of Nothing", he delivered big-time. So I can't say I'm worried.

Wilshire

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« Reply #221 on: November 06, 2017, 08:48:57 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
I feel you're being a bit unimaginative.
The entire series could take place over the course of a week and we could be no closer to knowing if NG was winning or not.
Or it could skip around in time.
We've tons of characters to check back up on. Again, think of Erikson's Malazan.
Prequels!
There's more than one way to tell a story, and far more than one story to tell.

FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.

Oh yes, the boy wondering through the wilderness, Bakker Magnus opus on philosophy.
Bakker wrote TUC as his Magnum Opus, though by definition one can't really define that until its pretty clear nothing else eclipses that work. He spent his whole life writing so he could get to, and tell, the story of TGO/TUC. So, the rest of gravy.

And, who do we have to go back to but those that where there at the end?
That whole story line (ie everything in Earwa other than The Great Ordeal)was a cliffhanger ending.
Have you forgotten about Meppa? Zeum? The actual fate of the empire? ... Just to name the obvious ones. I'm sure there's plenty more.
Why the instance that there must be nothing left but to follow around the dead ordeal?

In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.

That's a pretty bold statement. I disagree completely, there have been prediction of TUC rising and TSTSNBN being about that for a long time. Not that I called it either though.

Why can the world of Earwa only exist the way you have chosen to see it?

I did read your whole post, that little toss in at the end didn't convince me. ;)
Fair enough

Bakker said what he wanted to do was set out and give a story where a meaningful world becomes meaningless.

I'm just more confused now than before. Doesn't it make sense, that if Bakker's idea was to kill meaning, that TNG is about, well, TNG winning and meaning dying? Where does humanity redemption come in, if that's the point (which I believe you just claimed)?

We're not even there yet. Sorcery still works, the Outside is not shut. If, what he wanted to do was show the crash space and the end of meaning, he did a pretty good job with TUC with that. I don't know what else you would need to add. In fact, if there is no hope for humanity, writing post resumption, would probably ruin the series.
As I said above, there's still so much in the universe of Earwa that is left unexplored and unexplained. I guess for those of use who still aren't so sure of how everything works, there still a lot of interesting things to be written about.
If you've got it all figured out, I can see how more would be a waste of time, I'm just surprised that this seems to be your stance.
I'm also not clear why these things are mutually exclusive: Why, if there is no hope, is there no story left to tell, but if there is hope and it works out how you want, then all of a sudden there's stories left?
I guess what I'm driving at is why do you have to be right in order for there to be a story? It seems that either way there's plenty of words to read, wouldn't you agree?

Because, then it becomes a philosophical circle-jerk. Ask Erikson how well that worked out for him.
Not much to comment on. I'm not really sure how you got to this conclusion, but I'm pretty unclear on what you want or expect from TNG.

Prequel? Sure. Lots and lots I would love to read about. I'm sure ill read whatever is TNG. But, if what you believe is what we'll be reading, Bakker has set his self a high bar.

So, if yes to prequels, why do you not want or expect more world building, more stories, in TNG?
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MSJ

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« Reply #222 on: November 06, 2017, 09:24:22 pm »
Wilshire,

I don't have to be right to continue to read the story. Lol. But, you seem to have the same stance as me, but opposite. Why can't humanity survive and there also be the death of meaning? Meaning=Sorcery. The world doesn't have to die in order for it to lose meaning. And, I'm not saying I won't read the books, or that they won't be great, if its just about everybody's experience as the world ends. Its just would be a very hard thing to do.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #223 on: November 06, 2017, 09:41:22 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
I would expect Bakker to specifically avoid this at all costs. Him writing the third series with that mentality interests me greatly.

Plot-wise, I'm ambivalent about the fate of the characters, humanity, Earwa, Outside, etc. I would like to see Bakker taking his lines of thought further. So far, with "The Aspect-Emperor" as compared to "The Prince of Nothing", he delivered big-time. So I can't say I'm worried.

To the above, I hope and pray he does.

I am interested in what happens next as much as anyone. I just cannot realistically see the doom of a dying world done and done well. If that is the case, it ended beautifully at TUC. I just don't understand where the minutae of a dying world would be fascinating or how he could make it so. The dying of the world, ended so right with, "and so, Anansurimbor Kellhus and his Great Ordeal died in butchery...". Perfect.

That's all I'm trying to say. Maybe I'm wrong and its a hoot. Is love it and read it either way.  Its just my opinion that that option would be very hard to pull off well. That's it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #224 on: November 06, 2017, 10:09:06 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
I have trouble imagining both, but we know NG has a timer so presumably there is a post-NG-world either way, right?

Lol. You get up everyday and put your socks on and walk out the door, right? See any flying schoolman? Ever seen ssurrillic point to light your way on those hikes of yours? Didn't think so. This is where I'm getting at. The meaning which dies is the power of sorcery and god interacting directly in your life.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,