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Messages - Monkhound

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136
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] general A few questions + the only thing I didn't like
« on: September 01, 2016, 09:04:42 am »
Quote from: The Sharmat on September 01, 2016, 08:34:13 am
Is Proyas smarter than Saubon, or just much less angry?

Saubon has been much more begrudging and impulsive than Proyas ever since TDTCB.
Proyas had usually been the one who wanted to do good, following Kellhus out of love which is what he gets, although in TGO is more of a twisted form of "tough" love. Proyas seems to notice the difference between Kellhus's and Akka's, as the passage with him hanging from the tree with Akka wanting to help him shows, but it's too late (as Kellhus points it out to him).
Saubon was a jealous self-serving man who followed Kellhus because of what he could get out of it. It's there since before the Battle of Mengedda in TWP.

137
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« on: September 01, 2016, 06:27:52 am »
Thanks, Madness. I'm still curious as to how they got to Ishual though, it being a secret place :). I wonder if that question is ever going to be answered. It's of course possible they followed the tracks left by the royal escape party, and that it has no meaning whatsoever.

138
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 31, 2016, 10:06:31 pm »
Quote from: Cynical Cat on August 31, 2016, 09:56:51 pm
Other Tekne weaponry doesn't mean a nuke.  It's much more likely to biological in origin, such as the hypothetical Battle Synthese.

And/or wracu, let's not forget about them. They grow bigger over time, according to the scene with Wutteät in WLW, right? According to accounts, at least some should have survived the defeat of the No-God, IIRC. And Wutteät, although himself no weapon of the Tekne and beaten by Akka + Cleric, is still Shrödinger's Dragon... Or at the very least, the whole box has not been lifted from him.

139
The Great Ordeal / Re: The Great Ordeal - Story and Writing Style
« on: August 31, 2016, 06:54:59 pm »
Quote from: Bolivar on August 31, 2016, 04:05:08 pm
Not gonna lie - I had no idea what was going on with that boat in Ishterebinth. I assume it's just some massive chasm and that the boat travels to its edges and depths where the "lost cause" erratics reside to toss them pigs and it moves via sorcery or some kind of pulley system. Not really sure but would appreciate a clarification!

There's an incredibly deep pit that leads from the underworld mansion to the Holy Deep where the memory-less Cunuroi are.
It's a bit like the Well of Viri or the Great Medial Screw of Cil-Aujas, except that it appears to start deeper in the mansion.

The repetitive Clack was caused by chains, if my memory serves.

140
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Saubon: Battle of Mengedda (TWP) & the Battle at Dagliash (TGO)
« on: August 31, 2016, 06:11:01 am »
Quote from: The Sharmat on August 31, 2016, 05:48:11 am
I wish he wouldn't do that. Not only is it potentially spoilery but it opens a huge can of worms if he later decides that it's not a good idea and does something else.

Y'know, like mentioning en passant the Tusk is an Inchoroi gift to the 5 Tribes during a Q&A session.

141
The Great Ordeal / Re: The Great Ordeal - Story and Writing Style
« on: August 30, 2016, 09:27:17 pm »
English isn't my mother tongue, but I've always had a fair degree of proficiency, but there were quite a few of words I had to look up because I couldn't make anything of them.
Mostly in the Ishterebinth part, now that you mention it. Some of the words used got more archaic the deeper Sorweel went, which is actually interesting, given he's visiting Cunuroi ancient history. The adaptive writing style depending on what character's POV was always there, but this gave it an additional dimension, what with the perception from the Amiolas's ancient soul.

And yes. Some passages have to be reread. The philosophical dimension in TGO is much more intense than in previous books. Understanding the conclusion of some scenes requires understanding of what came before. But in some scenes, knowing the conclusion can help better understand what actually happened. Which in turn makes it easier to grasp the implications. I found this especially to be the case for the Korringhus POV passages which I had to reread a few times during the first read.

142
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] general A few questions + the only thing I didn't like
« on: August 30, 2016, 11:03:08 am »
Quote from: Titan on July 24, 2016, 08:35:58 pm
I think Kellhus was conditioning both Proyas and Saubon to be leaders in his absence. One of them was likely to die at Dagliash, but could not know for sure who would remain. He needed two strong options. That's what I think... While he probably expected the Consult to throw a surprise, I don't believe that Kellhus predicted the nuke, it seemed to be one of the rare moments when he had to go into deep probability trance to figure the shortest path from this new scenario.

I'm still of a mind Kellhus was prepping Saubon's soul for a transition to another specific purpose related to the Decapitants, in which Proyas might be next. I think I mentioned this in the Momemn thread, but I have no way to prove or disprove this.

EDIT: TBH I had this feeling based on the way he is described as being ruthless and without remorse/thinking about it by both Proyas and himself in the Aőrsi chapters, as well as the way Kellhus animates the Decapitant so soon after Saubon dies, with a flashback to Mengedda no less. Saubon was the very first to follow Kellhus's orders back then (to March against the Kianene and punish the Shrial Knights). Now, Saubon is ready for the next step. Proyas is not (yet) and is rebuked by Kellhus when he asks to lead the assault on Dagliash.

Quote
And the rape of Proyas was more to break down Saubon than Proyas, it seems.

Or possibly a two birds, one stone situation: Yes, Kellhus knows Proyas will mention this to Saubon, but the Aörsi passages from Kellhus's POV are clear about prepping Proyas for something.

143
General Q&A / Re: Proyas's mother [Q&A]
« on: August 29, 2016, 09:42:40 pm »
Quote from: Aural on November 04, 2014, 10:36:05 pm
Just noticed this from when Achamian meets Eleazaras,

Quote
“Tell me, Drusas Achamian, how is it that after all these years you still find yourself in the field, hmm? Did you offend someone? Nautzera, perhaps? Or did you bugger Proyas as a boy? Is that why House Nersei sent you packing those years ago?”

Could this have had anything to do with Proyas’ mamma? Perhas it’s only Akka’s affection for her that makes her legendary in his eyes.

Is not much, but she's mentioned in TGO as well.
(click to show/hide)



144
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Saubon: Battle of Mengedda (TWP) & the Battle at Dagliash (TGO)
« on: August 29, 2016, 09:22:09 pm »
Quote from: Titan on August 29, 2016, 04:47:20 pm
Is it eternal, though? There seems to be an element of reincarnation in Earwa. Souls seem to be recycled into newborns (either whole or rebuilt from fragments), and it was this soul in-flow that the No-God prevent with the womb-plague.

It could be that the quest of recovering a whole soul were the Dunyain definition of a self-moving soul, which could explain their 2000-year breeding program. Incidentally the word Holy comes from the Old English word Hálig, which meant Whole.
But on the other hand, what references do we have for reincarnation? I remember Cleric somehow remembering Mimara in WLW if that counts, but apart from that? The description of the Outside seems more like a demonic gore-fest than something where souls escape from in a shattered form to give life: Even in Eärwa, thousands of babies must be born on a daily basis.

Quote from: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 07:59:31 pm
Since there's no time in the Outside from your subjective view it's always eternal even if it looks like a short blip to anyone "inside".
This seems fairly reasonable to assume, although outsiders seem to perceive the passage of time all the same. In TGO p.44-46 one of them mentions Kellhus having been in the Outside before (the Head on a Pole passage). Of course this could be a reincarnation-thing, but that remains to be seen. I'm curious as hell about the explanation  :)

145
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole
« on: August 29, 2016, 04:11:32 pm »
About the Head on a Pole passage from pages 44-46:
There's One of the Sons of this Place which has crocodile features.
Has one of the Hundred ever been mentioned as having crocodile-features?

I'm intrigued by this, as the whole passage ends with the phrase:
Quote from: The Great Ordeal, p.46
The living shall not haunt the dead
Which could be interesting information as to the nature of the Hundred.

146
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 29, 2016, 04:02:36 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 03:45:42 pm
They didn't draw many clans from Kunuiri itself IIRC but without the No-God they're irrelevant now. I'm not sure how many bashrag there ever were or where they tend to live. Outside of Cil-Aujas we've only seen Consult bashrag rather than wild ones.

There was the Ten Yoke Legion spotted by Sorweel/the Scions that came from Kuniüri, no?
Apart from that, I think you're right: The way the Scylvendi patrol the area suggests there are more Sranc out there.

147
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momemn
« on: August 29, 2016, 03:41:06 pm »
Quote from: H on August 29, 2016, 12:20:39 pm
As for Malowebi, I think he is both curious and just playing with him.  I think there is plausibility that perhaps he's never actually seen Mbimayu sorcery before though, so it would make sense to see what it's about.

I do believe that is the case, although it's still strange. In 20 years you'd think he's done some research about all the magic in Eärwa. But I guess all men have their physical limits; Even Dunyain.

148
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 29, 2016, 03:32:09 pm »
Quote from: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 12:16:15 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 11:24:34 am
I dunno. A big spread out iron age population would be less susceptible to nukes than a modern urban one. No-God would probably still be more effective in this case. Especially if they want to live in the world once they're done.

Which isn't a problem if they nuke the south and retire to Golgotterath for a decade.  Remember they have the wild Sranc to finish the job for them.  It isn't like they have to see each last human die.  I'm in the "jury rigged improvised explosive camp".  If they have multiple nukes, the Ordeal is pretty easy to destroy.  Don't overestimate the effects of radioactive fallout.  There are plenty of people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki today.  If the Consult has dozens of nukes, it can use them.

Eärwa's Sranc and Bashrag count was recently given a considerable blow at Dagliash/Viri though. There are others as far as we know, but the inexhaustible supply is possibly no longer as endless as it was pre-Ordeal.

149
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Saubon: Battle of Mengedda (TWP) & the Battle at Dagliash (TGO)
« on: August 27, 2016, 10:24:05 am »
Quote from: The Sharmat on August 27, 2016, 08:35:25 am
As far as I can see the Consult has the only real plan.

The Cunuroi have probably forgotten theirs.
Kellhus's has to do with him being the Second Apocalypse, but what (possibly who's) world is to end, remains to be seen. Currently I have the impression it has to do with creating a gate to the Outside.
The Halaroi in general have none.
Akka and Mimara ("our Heroes") are clueless (to a measure).

The world created by Bakker is not ideal to think about under influence I suppose, but with some mind-relaxing stuff I got thinking last night:
What if the Cunuroi actually managed to seal off Heaven (before the Inchoroi even landed) to ensure they would never got to the Outside on their deaths, and Kellhus is the one to unshut it for humanity? Think about it: There is currently only demons and evil deities we have seen. Where are Heaven and the good-aligned outsiders?

150
Author Q&A / Re: Angeshraël and Mount Eshki
« on: August 26, 2016, 06:41:21 pm »
After reading the Q&A about the origins of the Tusk, I was thinking the same while reading this one. Reading how he just sacrifices his son to prove a point, you'd almost think he had poured his head into a specific fire.

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