[TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers

  • 139 Replies
  • 75472 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
    • View Profile
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2016, 10:48:27 pm »
I really severely doubt that Ishual was built in any capacity by The Dunyain.  We've bandied the idea around (or at least, I have) that Ishual is an abandoned Nonman mansion.  From it's name being Ihrimsu to Kellhus remarking how the mansion at Kyudea looked so much like Ishual leads me to conclude there is  really no way the Dunyain made Ishual in any capacity, let alone dug out the massive complex that is The Thousand Thousand Halls.

To throw a few questions out there:
1- Do we know the location of the ruins of the Nonman mansion of Siöl, since it is mentioned so frequently? Could Ishual have been built on to of it, assuming the theory that Ishual was built on top of a Nonman mansion?

2- It's probably a stretch, but by reading the words aloud, you could pronounce Ishual and Siöl in a similar way (I-Shial or I-Shiöl vs Shial or Shiöl). I have a strong liking for philology and searching for etymological development of words and pronunciation, so this popped up. Any thoughts?

3- Do we know anything about the original people calling themselves the Dunyain, besides the very first part in TDTCB? How did they know how to get to Ishual, since it was a secret refuge/location created by Anasurimbor Kelmomas?

And a jump-in question since Kyudea is mentioned:
I remember a passage in TTT about a war between the twin cities of Shimeh and Kyudea for control of Amoteu, where Kyudea is destroyed and laid to ruin. This looks like a Samarmas/Kelmomas (or a 0 and 1) parallel to me. How do twins tie into the development of the Dunyain?
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

EkyannusIII

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 142
  • Archduke Ekyannus of Shitlord Hall
    • View Profile
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2016, 11:33:16 pm »
I really hate the whale-mothers. Felt like beating a dead horse and stretched my suspension of disbelief too far. When I first read the previews I held out some hope that maybe Dunyain women just ended up that way once impregnated and it was some kind of weird second-puberty, but nah, seems like they're born incubators and lack Dunyain emotional stunting and conditioning for yet another example of "Hey don't women have it bad?"

I found it disagreeable from a taste standpoint as well, but it is also flawed in that it is self-defeating and ultimately less interesting than the alternative.  Consider the following: the Dunyain turned their women into axolotl tanks because they wanted total control over their bloodline for eugenics and found lobotomized baby machines the shortest path to that goal.  But this is a form of self-harm - children don't stop needing maternal care at birth, they typically require many years of it before they reach maturity, and "Whale-mothers" can't give that.  This means that the Dunyain's chosen path was actually destructive and subversive of their goals - they needed a way to establish control of women without removing them from the natural reproductive cycle so drastically.  There was a way to do this.  You will recall that Kellhus more or less effortlessly seduced Esmenet and Serwe. I see no reason that comparatively more permanent seductions could not have been carried out under controlled conditions - and Ishual is conditioned ground.  This means that a more productive strategy would have been finding a way to perform on each Dunyain woman something akin to the sexual imprinting seen in the Honored Matres of the later Dune books - an experience so addictive that it essentially collapses the difference between intercourse in general and sex with a specific person into one event, making it impossible to conceive of having more than one mate.  This would produce the control factor.  Combined with women's natural propensity to care for their children and the general fanaticism of the Dunyain, and it would be easy to breed a sub-species of women who are totally specialized to "voluntary" breeding to the exclusion of all else: they have their children by the man they are imprinted to , and all else is unimaginable to them.  Other details could be handled in a miscellaneous manner, e.g. having those turned menopausal poison themselves as the Dunyain who received the dreams from Moenghus did.  This could even be promoted as a highly rational act, even "desirable" in a sense, since their ability to perform their function, motherhood, had come to an end; a controlled culture could have been created that would take it for granted that they would do this, a further reinforcement factor.  Or perhaps shortened lifespan could have been designed in somehow.  All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2016, 01:21:34 am »
Siol is in the northeastern part of Earwa, on the border with Eanna. This is where the Breaking of the Gates occurred. I've always thought Ishual was part of an old Nonman Mansion, not so sure anymore. Akka and Mimara remark how different it is to Cil-Aujus. No ornamentation, devoid of art, strictly mathematical and precise. Which leads me to believe the Dunyâin did indeed build the Thousand Thousand Halls. Celmommas built Ishual proper, probably with the help of Nonmen, I'm sure. But, when hiding from the World, there is only one way to go....down. And, undoubtedly it fit with their goals to weed out the weak and aid in training.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Callan S.

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Warrior-Profit
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
    • Philosopher Gamer
« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2016, 02:24:25 am »
He needed only to assemble these truths into coarse sermons,
and they would surrender possessions, lovers, even children. Forty-seven men had
accompanied him when he rode from Atrithau’s southern gates, calling themselves
the adunyani, the “little Dünyain.” Not one survived the trek across Suskara. Out of
love they had sacrificed everything, asking only for words in return.
First slog.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
    • View Profile
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2016, 06:20:07 am »
Siol is in the northeastern part of Earwa, on the border with Eanna. This is where the Breaking of the Gates occurred. I've always thought Ishual was part of an old Nonman Mansion, not so sure anymore. Akka and Mimara remark how different it is to Cil-Aujus. No ornamentation, devoid of art, strictly mathematical and precise. Which leads me to believe the Dunyâin did indeed build the Thousand Thousand Halls. Celmommas built Ishual proper, probably with the help of Nonmen, I'm sure. But, when hiding from the World, there is only one way to go....down. And, undoubtedly it fit with their goals to weed out the weak and aid in training.

Good to know that, although it doesn't explain how the Dunyain knew there was a safe haven there. To decide to flee there, they may either have been privy to King Kel's information, or have knowledge of a prior settlement... Or have been extremely lucky, but that would be disappointing.

The difference was mainly explained in how Cil-Aujas is much more decorated whereas Ishual was bare. Removal of all non-relevant pieces/parts from the halls would be a Dunyain approach of cleansing/conditioning of the ground. It would also be an illustration of how the Dunyain shed a lot of their human traits through the breeding program.
On the other hand the TTH could also simply be a Dunyain reproduction of a Nonman mansion.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2016, 07:46:18 am »
"Doom, should you find me broken."

Maybe the seal was broken 2,000 years ago, by the first Dunyain.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
    • View Profile
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2016, 09:20:12 am »
"Doom, should you find me broken."

Maybe the seal was broken 2,000 years ago, by the first Dunyain.

If they got their hands on the scroll, that would have some interesting implications.
Forks within forks within forks :)
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Cynical Cat

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
    • View Profile
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2016, 11:03:55 am »
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both. 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 02:46:29 pm by Wilshire »

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2016, 12:20:58 pm »
... All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 
That post was probably the best rebuttal of the whale-mother's I've seen.

The only shortfalls is that its not as cognitively jarring imo, and probably not as easily distilled into a quick paragraph - at least not in a way that could elicit the feels the same way that the whale mothers do/did.

"Doom, should you find me broken."

Maybe the seal was broken 2,000 years ago, by the first Dunyain.

If they got their hands on the scroll, that would have some interesting implications.
Forks within forks within forks :)
lol
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2016, 02:31:23 pm »
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both.

Whoa, you quoted me on something someone else said.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2016, 02:47:08 pm »
 
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both.

Whoa, you quoted me on something someone else said.
Fixed initial linkage.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 02:48:41 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2016, 03:20:41 pm »
And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

Not possible since Requires Hate just manufactured reasons to attack people with social justice flavored rants.  Fun note, most of Requires Hates targets were minorities, women, or both.

Whoa, you quoted me on something someone else said.
Fixed initial linkage.

Thank you, Wilshire.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #87 on: September 01, 2016, 12:28:45 am »
3- Do we know anything about the original people calling themselves the Dunyain, besides the very first part in TDTCB? How did they know how to get to Ishual, since it was a secret refuge/location created by Anasurimbor Kelmomas?

Bakker actually addressed this a little on ZTS:

Quote from: Bakker, July 2004
Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics (originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism.

... All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

That post was probably the best rebuttal of the whale-mother's I've seen.

While I do like Ekyannus' thoughts, it still ignores that there were probably a whole range of defectives (not the "ideal" Whale-Mother or Dunyain-Father) who served a variety of purposes besides face-training - implying other types of defective females.

Not anyone here, per say, but the more this is discussed, the more I wonder why the cognitive average funneled towards outrage and incredulity.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 12:30:25 am by Madness »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2016, 05:38:05 am »
Well for one I'm pretty sure Bakker was going for outrage.

Monkhound

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
    • View Profile
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2016, 06:27:52 am »
Thanks, Madness. I'm still curious as to how they got to Ishual though, it being a secret place :). I wonder if that question is ever going to be answered. It's of course possible they followed the tracks left by the royal escape party, and that it has no meaning whatsoever.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...