The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Madness on July 19, 2017, 10:35:35 pm
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I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'
I will disagree and put a pin in it until this until I read the book.
And as I mentioned in earlier post, the description of a 'descending hunger' sounds A LOT like how Ajokli has been portrayed so far (raiding the granary and all). The bold font hadn't started at that point and I very strongly suspect that was Ajokli talking.
+1
I rule out Kellhus being on the Outside by the fact that Ajokli can not find him after the salting. If Kellhus was dead and on the Outside then Ajokli could see him and there is no reason for the Cnaiur possession. Even if we suppose Cnaiur was possessed by Gilgaol instead, then that still leaves the problem as to why he can't see Kellhus on the Outside.
It's funny because though it's apparent that Ajokli seems to possess Cnaiur, I don't actually attribute that dialogue to Ajokli. I'm quibbly, of course - though as far as I'm concerned much less than others are with other thinkenearing and finagling.
Though, isn't it interesting that Kelmomas as No-God hanging above Ajokli exactly mirrors Ajokli's Idol above Kelmomas in TJE prologue?
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It's funny because though it's apparent that Ajokli seems to possess Cnaiur, I don't actually attribute that dialogue to Ajokli. I'm quibbly, of course - though as far as I'm concerned much less than others are with other thinkenearing and finagling.
Though, isn't it interesting that Kelmomas as No-God hanging above Ajokli exactly mirrors Ajokli's Idol above Kelmomas in TJE prologue?
I can see your stance on the Cnaiur dialogue (monologue?). He easily could have said and meant that himself and it would be consistent with both his character and speech that we've seen so far. After a quick browse through the relevant section, I think the speaker switches from Cnaiur -> Ajokli during the paragraph describing his horns appearing. That is also when the Sranc horde are described as starting to part away from him. Then very next line says he "roared with no human voice". Looks like as good a point as any for the point of full possession and a speaker switch.
And I hadn't considered the mirrored imagery with Kelmomas and the Ajokli idol, but I like that a lot. I had even reconsidered the idol scene after the No-God reveal, all I put together was that Ajokli would have had no clue Kelmomas was there talking to him! Just a beetle randomly losing legs and making circles (if he was paying attention to that at all).
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Well, presumably Kelmomas may well have been visible to Ajokli at that stage, because he had not yet killed Samarmas and therefore possessed a different soul.
Cnaiur was very unlikely to simply have been possessed, due to a range of factors.
A few of the most important;
- the scene is after Resumption -- no souls may pass, and the soul that encounters Him passes no further -- the Gods bay silently at the gate. Ajokli and the rest are supposed to be blind to the world when the No-god walks.
- possession is simply not how the god's operate. They cannot act directly like that. In the case of Kellhus it is an exception. He is a diamotic sorcerer with sorcerous pacts and artifacts stood on the very threshholds of Hell and the cycle of souls remains open. But not so for Cnaiur.
- Cnaiur himself is a type of Ciphrang (according to the Judging Eye), bearing thousands of souls on his skin. Can a god possess a demon? I think not.
Nevertheless, a very important scene. I was expecting Kellhus to make a play for some type of Godly ascension, but to witness Cnaiur just drop trousers, hulk out and turn into Ajokli was a high point of this second series for me, one of my top 10 reading experiences.
For me, it provided answers; to the Narindar's question in WLW. And the question of how the Celmoman Prophecy was delivered (given that it couldn't have been delivered by the Gods from the Outside during the First Apocalypse for the same primary reason listed above). And why Ajokli is obsessed with the Anasurimbors.
As for Khellus' fate? Well ... pure speculation, but sometimes the dead bounce, after all.
**edited for clarity
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I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'
If that's the case then Kellhus talks in bold in the "the lament" chapter as well, when he reveals the arc to his believer kings by cutting a hole in the tent. So by that logic, Ajokli is flitting in and out of Kellhus at various points when he is written in bold in the book.
Akka speaks in bold as well in the last chapter.
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This is from Quick Reply with me copying and pasting and doing the quoting. If I choose the quote feature, I just get blank where I should be able to post with the quote. Matter of fact, Quick Reply is only thing working for me.
Is anyone else having these problems? BFK did mention the modify function wasn't working on his phone. Please let Wilshire or I know in this thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1776.msg35168;boardseen#new).
I can see your stance on the Cnaiur dialogue (monologue?). He easily could have said and meant that himself and it would be consistent with both his character and speech that we've seen so far. After a quick browse through the relevant section, I think the speaker switches from Cnaiur -> Ajokli during the paragraph describing his horns appearing. That is also when the Sranc horde are described as starting to part away from him. Then very next line says he "roared with no human voice". Looks like as good a point as any for the point of full possession and a speaker switch.
Indeed. More thoughts to come from Future Madness.
Well, presumably Kelmomas may well have been visible to Ajokli at that stage, because he had not yet killed Samarmas and therefore possessed a different soul.
Good point.
A few of the most important;
- the scene is after Resumption -- no souls may pass, and the soul that encounters Him passes no further -- the Gods bay silently at the gate. Ajokli and the rest are supposed to be blind to the world when the No-god walks.
This is inaccurate, no? The Hundred, anyhow, are blind to the No-God, not the world. They just attribute all the death to human on human violence?
Also, across the seven books and at least my reading of PON Glossary, as I still haven't read TUC canon artifact, we know that Ajokli behaves by different rules than the rest of the Hundred.
Digressing, it also raises the question of what the Ajokli Narindar in the Warrior's WLW vision meant when he suggested that Ajokli sees what the other Gods do not because it clearly didn't mean the No-God as was the long-held suspicion by readers.
- possession is simply not how the god's operate. They cannot act directly like that. In the case of Kellhus it is an exception. He is a diamotic sorcerer with sorcerous pacts and artifacts stood on the very threshholds of Hell and the cycle of souls remains open. But not so for Cnaiur.
Quibbling on my part but I attribute that line about "making pacts with the Pit" (paraphrasing badly) to Ajokli, not Kellhus.
Nevertheless, a very important scene. I was expecting Kellhus to make a play for some type of Godly ascension, but to witness Cnaiur just drop trousers, hulk out and turn into Ajokli was a high point of this second series for me, one of my top 10 reading experiences.
I loved it too.
For me, it provided answers ... And the question of how the Celmoman Prophecy was delivered (given that it couldn't have been delivered by the Gods from the Outside during the First Apocalypse for the same primary reason listed above). And why Ajokli is obsessed with the Anasurimbors.
Well, again I forewarned people that MG's teasers reflected his interpretation of the text, but he's sure that Ajokli is responsible for delivering the Celmomian Prophecy.
I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'
If that's the case then Kellhus talks in bold in the "the lament" chapter as well, when he reveals the arc to his believer kings by cutting a hole in the tent. So by that logic, Ajokli is flitting in and out of Kellhus at various points when he is written in bold in the book.
Akka speaks in bold as well in the last chapter.
I'd have to check but there are very subtle formatting differences. I'd like to compare Yatwer's interaction with Psatma in TJE and with Sorweel in WLW to Ajokli's God-Mode in the Golden Room in TUC because I think they differ from your latter two examples, which I believe to be just sorcerous megaphone Cants.
Serwe is a ciphrang as well as seen by Mimara.
Damned, not Ciphrang, right?
I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'
Don't we get examples of Kellhus doing seemingly magically acts without sorcery before the speech starts to use bold font?
We do, Kel notices that Kellhus is levitating without any sorcery, during the last whelming(last one, kellhus knew ;) ) Which sort of reminded me of the Wheel of time, one power and true power distinction. One can be sensed one can't.
Indeed, without the Mark. Interesting.
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I am a believer that Ajokli inhabited Cnaüir and was seeking Kelly is. Can't find him in hell because he is in his little oasis (or he is Mimara's babe.). It makes tons if thematic sense. Cnaüir is described as a Prince of Hate, who better for Ajokli to inhabit in such short notice. And, Cnaüir not seeing the No-God is proof that its a God inhabiting Cnaüir.
I do not think that is Ajokli the entire time in the Golden room, I agree the bolded us specifically Ajokli. And, I don't buy Kelly is hanging as a decapitant, because that was Kelly is that saw Kel, since the Gods are blind to the Ni-God. It doesn't mean it wasn't part if Kellhus's plan though. We have him goading Esme to release Kel, he knows Kel us a abimination, ergo No-God, yet doesn't kill him. It seems as if it was part if his plan. And, the surprise was a ruse to trick the Trickster. I wholeheartedly believe Kellhua to be in the Outside, hidden from the Gods. Ready to wage war for the souls of Earwa. Otherwise, the Jelly is dreams are senseless. He is without the values in the dreams because he is no longer under god entanglement.
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No i believe the phrase is a ciphrang for serwe from Mimara's point of view.
"sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future,showering the earth with death- a witch ,wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon her burns"
Interesting.
I do not think that is Ajokli the entire time in the Golden room, I agree the bolded us specifically Ajokli. And, I don't buy Kelly is hanging as a decapitant, because that was Kelly is that saw Kel, since the Gods are blind to the Ni-God. It doesn't mean it wasn't part if Kellhus's plan though. We have him goading Esme to release Kel, he knows Kel us a abimination, ergo No-God, yet doesn't kill him. It seems as if it was part if his plan. And, the surprise was a ruse to trick the Trickster. I wholeheartedly believe Kellhua to be in the Outside, hidden from the Gods. Ready to wage war for the souls of Earwa. Otherwise, the Jelly is dreams are senseless. He is without the values in the dreams because he is no longer under god entanglement.
I'll have to play close attention as I read the canon artifact (who I am kidding, I'm going to fixate on it line-by-line ;)) but I think the Decapitants entry suggests that it doesn't matter whether Kellhus' head or Ajokli's is on Kellhus' shoulders in the Golden Room. The Decapitants entry suggests to me that Ajokli tried to take-over at Mengedda and save himself a trip to Golgotterath if he could but the topoi at Mengedda (which we are led to believe is the second deepest in the world next to Golgotterath) wasn't enough.
Firmly in the Kellhus is stuck in the other decapitant camp - though, I will say I do find MG's (and I believe H's) suggestion that Kellhus is Ciphrang-Malowebi neat, if improbable.
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A few of the most important;
- the scene is after Resumption -- no souls may pass, and the soul that encounters Him passes no further -- the Gods bay silently at the gate. Ajokli and the rest are supposed to be blind to the world when the No-god walks.
This is inaccurate, no? The Hundred, anyhow, are blind to the No-God, not the world. They just attribute all the death to human on human violence?
Also, across the seven books and at least my reading of PON Glossary, as I still haven't read TUC canon artifact, we know that Ajokli behaves by different rules than the rest of the Hundred.
Digressing, it also raises the question of what the Ajokli Narindar in the Warrior's WLW vision meant when he suggested that Ajokli sees what the other Gods do not because it clearly didn't mean the No-God as was the long-held suspicion by readers.
My point here is that souls may not pass. If babies are still born it is because there is restriction to the entry of souls from the source to the World. Through the Dreams anmd other references, we are told that Mog takes the souls of those that die. e.g. Skafra says to Seswatha that the no-god ate Celmomas. However, sorcery still works -- the implication being that souls within the world can still reach the outside indirectly but that the organic connections that govern the cycle of souls are blocked by the Object.
It is stated that the purpose of the No-god is to seal the Outside so many times and in so many ways that it is hard for me to see why people are obtuse to the fact that a God running about ipso facto shows that it has failed.
- possession is simply not how the god's operate. They cannot act directly like that. In the case of Kellhus it is an exception. He is a diamotic sorcerer with sorcerous pacts and artifacts stood on the very threshholds of Hell and the cycle of souls remains open. But not so for Cnaiur.
Quibbling on my part but I attribute that line about "making pacts with the Pit" (paraphrasing badly) to Ajokli, not Kellhus.
You think Kellhus has not made pacts then? The decapitants are clearly bound to his service, are they not?
Quibbling aside, my point relates to comparing how the gods are said to function within the World, the ways in which we are shown their interactions, and the rather obvious differences of Khellus' Diamotic efforts.
For me, it provided answers ... And the question of how the Celmoman Prophecy was delivered (given that it couldn't have been delivered by the Gods from the Outside during the First Apocalypse for the same primary reason listed above). And why Ajokli is obsessed with the Anasurimbors.
Well, again I forewarned people that MG's teasers reflected his interpretation of the text, but he's sure that Ajokli is responsible for delivering the Celmomian Prophecy.
I'm unaware of MG's teasers for the most part.
I do think that the twists of TUC have been largely unappreciated thus far because many posters seem too intent on interpreting events through the lens of their expectations.
After reflection, it seems obvious to me that Aspect Emperor is hugely concerned with the story of Ajokli. Indeed, it was only after entertaining the
The simplest explanation for what happens at the end of TUC seems entirely overlooked. Prince of Nothing tells the story of Kellhus' rise to power. Aspect Emperor shows the birth of a God and the return of the No-god at the end of the world.
Ajokli is different from the other Gods because he is born outside of time - after the Resumption. The gods exist 'all at once' so it does not matter when the original soul that they are seeded in 'births' their existence, obviously Ajokli is unique. Presumably he does not have access to the collection of aggregate experience he has harvested prior to Resumption at the time of his birth, but -- thanks to his manipulations -- he is immanent during the Apocalypse.
Entertain this interpretation and the narrative structure of Aspect Emperor slowly starts to makes complete sense. The Judging Eye was never primarily concerned with Kellhus, it has manifested to witness the end of the world and the birth of a God. Kelmomas is Ajokli's narindar -- or are we really to believe that he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to defeat Yatwer's White Luck not once but twice, and then is critical to Kellhus' betrayal AND ensuring that Resumption happens? I'm 100% that Ajokli knew he was there because he put him there, despite what Malowebi, the Consult and Kelmomas think.
Kellhus and the Consult were tricked by Ajokli. Faced with the prospect of Damnation, Kellhus seems to have accepted that Ajokli would intercede with his soul and that he would become one of Ajokli's ciphrang in the Outside - effectively aiming for the most hellish version of redemption in the Outside, a far cry from Chalahal (refer Glossary) but probably the best he could aim for. Perhaps he has escaped Ajokli by contingency, certainly, there are signs that this is the case. But the Consult are about to deliver a feast to Ajokli and he, alone of the Gods, stands to profit. In truth, it appears the remaining Mutilated are Ajokli's angels of the Apocalypse - the four horns/brothers.
Finally, if you look at the glossary entry for the Incu Holinais, you will find a rather startlingly different interpretation for the origins of the Inchoroi. Ajencis argues that they are not aliens, but rather sent from Hell by Ajokli. His refutation of them as a star-faring race is interesting because from an astrophysical perspective it actually makes a fair bit of sense - from his reasoning, it turns out that the stars from Earwa are positionally static (apparently excluding the Nail) and NOT analogous to our own. At the very least, there are no planets and Earwa does not orbit it's sun.
The fact that this little bit is in the glossary indicates to me that my view of events is at least intended to be interpretable in this way.
**edit: formatting appears screwed up on Tapatalk, not sure why.
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My point here is that souls may not pass.
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It is stated that the purpose of the No-god is to seal the Outside so many times and in so many ways that it is hard for me to see why people are obtuse to the fact that a God running about ipso facto shows that it has failed.
Granted on the former.
On the latter I don't think we know enough:
Firstly, it's hinted that Ajokli isn't constrained as the other Gods are and can act and behave differently than the rest of the Hundred. Secondly, we don't know that the Gods can't act or influence the world during the No-God's advent, just that they can't perceive the No-God.
You think Kellhus has not made pacts then? The decapitants are clearly bound to his service, are they not?
On the former, I do not. I think Ajokli has made pacts. I don't take it as apparent that Ajokli is the ruler of Hell (especially, not that I can square this with any personal understanding, given that a certain number of readers assume that the Hundred are just "bigger Ciphrang"). As I've said, I think Ajokli has "struck deals with the Pit," (badly paraphrasing) not Kellhus.
On the latter, as per Proyas' memory of Kellhus' words in WLW (fuck, I wish I had my books with me): Kellhus has the Daimotic ability to seize the Ciphrang as a sorcerer, not a priest (badly paraphrasing Proyas' reminisces on the decapitants just before they meet with the Nonman Embassy). Kellhus doesn't need Ajokli or deals or whathaveyou to take on individual Ciphrang and bend them to his will.
Or collect them as pokemon as FB eloquently put it.
I do think that the twists of TUC have been largely unappreciated thus far because many posters seem too intent on interpreting events through the lens of their expectations.
Indeed.
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I'll have to wait until I read the canon artifact and can quote properly before I tackle that, friend Cüréthañ. Good to read you again, by the way :).
**edit: formatting appears screwed up on Tapatalk, not sure why.
No doubt further issues of our new theme. Working on it :-\.
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the quote is omething like "there are two species of revelation friend, those that sieze and those that are siezed, one is the province of priests one of sorcerors
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It appears we aren't quite on the same page vis a vis my use of the word 'pact'. I was simply inferring contracts of service between Diamotic sorcerers and entities that dwell within the Outside.
Obviously, there is a problem in that all of the 'pacts' we see demonstrated end up being little more than relegating one party to provide service at the direction of the other with only a vague promise of delivery of a soul in return.
My understanding is that Kellhus has a deal (pact) with Ajokli, but the Trickster God HAS to betray him, in accordance with his nature.
“I have walked the infernal deep ...” the Anasûrimbor said, either unaware or unconcerned. “I have struck treaties with the Pit.”
Bakker, R. Scott (2017-07-06). The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 7525-7526). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.
Why else does Ajokli immeadiately start trying to seduce the Consult instead of obliterating them? In fact, I believe he is simply playing for time until Kelmomas arrives in position in order to kill Kellhus. But perhaps I should save my appraisal of who won and lost for a more appropriate thread, I fear I digress to much.
More generally, I would refer again to the Glossary entry (that I referenced up thread), where the Daimos is also called 'noömancy', and suggest combining that with the nuance added by the Glossary to the Metagnosis for some insight into Kellhus and Ajokli's antics with the Daimos.
The Daimos is not simply about summoning Ciphrang, perhaps we should look more closely at it's metaphysical attributes.
p.s. thanks Madness, appreciate the acknowledgement ;)
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the quote is omething like "there are two species of revelation friend, those that sieze and those that are siezed, one is the province of priests one of sorcerors
Thanks, themerchant. Gall, you're like the better me. Though, you know... page numbers ;).
It appears we aren't quite on the same page vis a vis my use of the word 'pact'. I was simply inferring contracts of service between Diamotic sorcerers and entities that dwell within the Outside.
Obviously, there is a problem in that all of the 'pacts' we see demonstrated end up being little more than relegating one party to provide service at the direction of the other with only a vague promise of delivery of a soul in return.
Yeah, we're using the word the same, it's the difference in interpretations that's confounding us.
Iyokus never made a "pact" with the Ciphrang. Daimos is exploitative. You don't have to reason with the Ciphrang and make a deal, outside of the baseline assumption that they'll "keepeth you for eternity" (badly paraphrasing as per TWP) once you summon them with the Daimos.
My understanding is that Kellhus has a deal (pact) with Ajokli, but the Trickster God HAS to betray him, in accordance with his nature.
“I have walked the infernal deep ...” the Anasûrimbor said, either unaware or unconcerned. “I have struck treaties with the Pit.”
Bakker, R. Scott (2017-07-06). The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 7525-7526). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.
Thanks for quoting that.
Right there is exactly the line, among others, I think should be attributed to Ajokli, not Kellhus. He's not a God the same as the rest of the Hundred and has to deal with the Outside in some fashion that we don't yet understand, methinks - one that differs from the rules constraining the rest of the Hundred.
Why else does Ajokli immeadiately start trying to seduce the Consult instead of obliterating them?
Or five - neh, four - Dunyain would make excellent tools in creating hell on Earwa - not to mention the symmetry regarding the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (my fuck, I wish Happy Ent would join SA and grace us with his parodies, much less his actual insight :'().
More generally, I would refer again to the Glossary entry (that I referenced up thread), where the Daimos is also called 'noömancy', and suggest combining that with the nuance added by the Glossary to the Metagnosis for some insight into Kellhus and Ajokli's antics with the Daimos.
The Daimos is not simply about summoning Ciphrang, perhaps we should look more closely at it's metaphysical attributes.
I didn't get to mid-wif the Glossary at all, sadly. I'm waiting until I savour the canon artifact before I imprint it on the Greater Madness.
p.s. thanks Madness, appreciate the acknowledgement ;)
FB and I were talking about you just a week ago even. Missed you, friend.
Where have all the old names gone... and when will they return?
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Entertain this interpretation and the narrative structure of Aspect Emperor slowly starts to makes complete sense. The Judging Eye was never primarily concerned with Kellhus, it has manifested to witness the end of the world and the birth of a God. Kelmomas is Ajokli's narindar -- or are we really to believe that he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to defeat Yatwer's White Luck not once but twice, and then is critical to Kellhus' betrayal AND ensuring that Resumption happens? I'm 100% that Ajokli knew he was there because he put him there, despite what Malowebi, the Consult and Kelmomas think.
Curethan, glad to have you posting in full force.
This bit, specifically, is a fascinating interpretation to me. Its dramatically different, maybe entirely opposite, of how I viewed Kelmomas' and Ajokli's relationship, yet it makes a lot of sense. Will have to wait a few days before I can comment appropriately though.
btw, I agree, too much digression from the thread. Will probably move around some posts, maybe something more explicitly about Ajokli, rather than just Diamos generally.
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Entertain this interpretation and the narrative structure of Aspect Emperor slowly starts to makes complete sense. The Judging Eye was never primarily concerned with Kellhus, it has manifested to witness the end of the world and the birth of a God. Kelmomas is Ajokli's narindar -- or are we really to believe that he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to defeat Yatwer's White Luck not once but twice, and then is critical to Kellhus' betrayal AND ensuring that Resumption happens? I'm 100% that Ajokli knew he was there because he put him there, despite what Malowebi, the Consult and Kelmomas think.
Curethan, glad to have you posting in full force.
This bit, specifically, is a fascinating interpretation to me. Its dramatically different, maybe entirely opposite, of how I viewed Kelmomas' and Ajokli's relationship, yet it makes a lot of sense. Will have to wait a few days before I can comment appropriately though.
btw, I agree, too much digression from the thread. Will probably move around some posts, maybe something more explicitly about Ajokli, rather than just Diamos generally.
That's funny, because we are in agreement, Wilshire, and until curethan posted I seem to be the only person that thinks ajokli triumphant was the result of the golden room. It is in his nature to betray and he chose the most magnificent moment for kellhus to be betrayed. Granted, it seems plausible that kellhus is hiding in the other head, but I do not think kellhus has any more agency than malowebi does if he is trapped in the head. And even this seems somewhat implausible as ajokli manifested out of that head otoh, perhaps that leaves a vacuum.
I would point out that I think that the relationship between kellhus and ajokli changes our understanding of TTT and the three books of the aspect emperor. When kellhus sees the halos and recognizes "the light of delusion" delusion is functioning as an identifier synonym for ajokli, literally , "the light of ajokli"
Likewise when moenghus asks kellhus why kellhus refers to the consult with terms like wicked etc "these words are mechanisms of control" we now should understand that kellhus is using them because of ajoklis influence that this may in fact be a manifestation of ajokli within this encounter as he seeks understanding of that which is beyond the eschaton. And also yes they are mechanisms of control and ajokli is controlling kellhus.
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Alright, attempted to split the topic and make it more relevant to the Ajokli discussion. I might have missed a couple of the opening posts, sorry!
Pre-split original topic on the Diamos is located here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2203.msg35453#msg35453)
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That's funny, because we are in agreement, Wilshire, and until curethan posted I seem to be the only person that thinks ajokli triumphant was the result of the golden room.
Kellhus' failure is clear for me which definitely puts us in the same field at least. Regarding who truly came out ahead, though, I remain undecided, though a compelling case has certainly been made here.
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I just don't think we know enough about the differences in Ajokli's agency that sets him apart from the rest of the Hundred. Also, what Ajokli "sees that the other gods do not" (badly paraphrasing) isn't the No-God as has been a consensus among some readers for a long time?
What does Ajokli want? What was he going to do had the book ended with Ajokli and his Four Mutilated Apocalyptic Horsemen? The Mutilated suggested that Ajokli wanted to hide from the other gods and I've mentioned that the Momemn narrative arc across the first three books suggests that the Hundred were actively hunting Ajokli (the Demon, Ciphrang, etc.) and the mortal through whom he was attempting to make his play, which happens to be Kellhus.
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Cheers Wilshire and locke. ;)
First, Kellhus didn't really fail in the context of the Thousandfold Thought, anymore than Moenghus failed. They both did precisely what was needed and became surplus to requirements.
“You shall be my goad, the scourge of nations. Children shall keen for the simple rumour of your coming. Men shall rage and weep. And whatever horror and anguish you should sow, I shall reap.”
Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 7742-7743). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.
Ajokli didn't need the Consult to accede, he was just telling them how it is. He eliminates the Dunyain that grasps certain things about what he was doing and then let them think they had won.
Cue Cnaiur's ascension as Ajokli into the Whirlwind and we see that the Scylvendi were right all along. As they watch, Lokung strides into the End of the World, born as his siblings are stranded blind in the Outside that extends across the rest of history.
Regarding the blindness of the Hundred - it is stated that they rationalized other explanations for the events of the First Apocalypse, but the implication is quite clear that they could not understand it in truth nor intercede in any fashion. The no-god collapses subject and object, closes the gateways in preparation to seal them as it counts and extinguishes the subjective souls remaining inside. No more babies means the amount of Subject cannot increase, and means the Subjective can no longer manipulate the hinges of creation. (Note that standard sorcery still works because it relies on manipulating reality from its Objective side)
Prior to TUC the origin of the Celmoman Prophecy was hugely problematic, causing many readers to assume that the Hundred retained some agency - doesn't need to be the case anymore if Ajokli remains ensouled in the Objective.
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Didn't know where to post this, bu thought here was as good a place as any.
Is/was/will Ajokli responsible for the halos? Throughout the majority of TAE and TTT, I thought the halos were a product of mass hysteria and/or wishful thinking - even on the part of Kellhus, who has been seeing them since TTT.
But since Ajokli seems to be the source of some sorcery-type effects without leaving a mark, is he also responsible for these?
On a related note... does the Daimos leave a mark? If not, I would say this is Outside-Kellhus retro-fitting halos onto events in the past.
That being said, when Proyas gave his big speech in TUC, I believe it's said that some thought they saw halos around him. So maybe I'm back to thinking it's mass hysteria.
Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?
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The clues in the lead up to the final confrontation for me are.
1. Ciphrang able to get around the control of the Daimos.
2. Same Ciphrang not able to find the soul in someone, maybe a skinspy or maybe a consequence of being in a deep topoi.
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The Halos seem to be an extension of the Thousandfold Thought. Note that the halos that relate directly to operatives of the Thousandfold Thought are golden and Mimara's are silver. Different source in my mind.
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What does that mean, though? The Thousandfold Thought isn't a conscious entity. It can't do things. I'm not being purposefully irritating, I honestly don't know how you think TTT can cause halos to appear.
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Fair call. It's not an easy concept to grasp, I think. To my mind there are two possibilities.
The first is that it operates like a gestalt entity, taking agency from it's constituent pieces. Think of how a political party or corporation operates, except rooted in the subjective overlap of the literal noösphere that exists in Earwa. The halos are basically a magical form of brand recognition (representing associative thoughts - specifically humanity's self-perceived holy right to exist). In this fashion, it is an immanence in the world that extends from all the people in the Three Seas. An extension of the will of the unconscious God.
The other option is that it is just another flow of history (or darkness) that can be grasped and twisted to different purpose by agencies that manipulate the outside via the daimos. Perhaps Kellhus, more likely the Gods.
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OK, we disagree completely, then. I think TTT is literally just a thought, concept, idea, methodology, goal, whatever.
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OK, we disagree completely, then. I think TTT is literally just a thought, concept, idea, methodology, goal, whatever.
As far back as TTT (the book) this discussion has been around, and there's little space between the two concepts for understanding. I'm more on your side Yellow, if I'm honest, but there should probably be a new TTT discussion thread in our post-TUC world. For what its worth, post-TUC has begun to change my mind.
If you start from that as a base assumption, that it does exist as an agency of some kind (more like a God than anything else), it makes the argument more clear - but without starting there there's little more else to be said :) .
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As far back as TTT (the book) this discussion has been around, and there's little space between the two concepts for understanding. I'm more on your side Yellow, if I'm honest, but there should probably be a new TTT discussion thread in our post-TUC world. For what its worth, post-TUC has begun to change my mind.
We have one of those, don't we?
[TUC Spoilers] The Thousandfold Thought (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2208.0)
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The clues in the lead up to the final confrontation for me are.
1. Ciphrang able to get around the control of the Daimos.
2. Same Ciphrang not able to find the soul in someone, maybe a skinspy or maybe a consequence of being in a deep topoi.
The "hooded figure" is a nonman, by description "porcelain scalp"- but soulless...?
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The "hooded figure" is a nonman, by description "porcelain scalp"- but soulless...?
I must be the only one, but i took it as a hint that maybe his soul actually found oblivion.
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Isn't it a pretty important point that the Nonman concept of oblivion is a sham though? At least according to Cet'ingira and the two others who saw the Inverse Fire.
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Problem is, how do we know its a sham? The IF is as likely a lie as anything else. In fact, the IF seems suspiciously like a tool of Ajokli.
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And just exactly why would Ajokli create a tool that motivates the closing off of the Outside, ending his feasting on souls?
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Its a tool that created endless millenium of war. How long have the Inchoroi warred against their fate, how many billions of souls reaped? What a feast that was! And how odd, that a race unaware of the existance of the Outside and of souls, should construct an artifact that but shows them their own damnation.
I didn't say he created the No-God ;) . That creation may indeed lie entirely with the Inchoroi/Consult and, if we are to believe the story, he can't even see it and would not have seen that the gifting of the IF would lead to that conclusion.
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Its a tool that created endless millenium of war. How long have the Inchoroi warred against their fate, how many billions of souls reaped? What a feast that was! And how odd, that a race unaware of the existance of the Outside and of souls, should construct an artifact that but shows them their own damnation.
I didn't say he created the No-God ;) . That creation may indeed lie entirely with the Inchoroi/Consult and, if we are to believe the story, he can't even see it and would not have seen that the gifting of the IF would lead to that conclusion.
Well, the Inchoroi, or their progenitors, must've been quite aware of the outside since it was their scrutiny of the soul that led them to discover they were all damned. I don't know, it sounds a bit too far fetched to me that Ajokli created this thing, which must be as old as the Inchoroi themselves, maybe even having originated on their homeworld, with this master-plan in mind.
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^^ agreed.
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The Inverse Fire and the ability to seek Oblivion can both be true, they are not mutually exclusive.
It says it somewhere in one of the books but I can't find the quote at the moment, that finding Oblivion is to walk a very narrow and difficult path. Just because most fail, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
I don't believe that Kellhus lies when he says about the Inverse Fire:
“This artifact senses the continuity of the Now with our souls as they exist outside of time. It siphons it like sap, boils it into an image the Now can comprehend. The Fire burns true.”
The crux is probably how the Inverse Fire is the truth, but it isn't deterministic. One could be damned in the Fire and still find Oblivion, it would just be incredibly hard. It's not really a wonder than most chose he "easy" way out.
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Its a tool that created endless millenium of war. How long have the Inchoroi warred against their fate, how many billions of souls reaped? What a feast that was! And how odd, that a race unaware of the existance of the Outside and of souls, should construct an artifact that but shows them their own damnation.
I didn't say he created the No-God ;) . That creation may indeed lie entirely with the Inchoroi/Consult and, if we are to believe the story, he can't even see it and would not have seen that the gifting of the IF would lead to that conclusion.
Well, the Inchoroi, or their progenitors, must've been quite aware of the outside since it was their scrutiny of the soul that led them to discover they were all damned. I don't know, it sounds a bit too far fetched to me that Ajokli created this thing, which must be as old as the Inchoroi themselves, maybe even having originated on their homeworld, with this master-plan in mind.
^^ agreed.
lol fair enough.
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I've heard rumours that there's a Glossary entry implying that some Earwan theorists believe that Ajokli sent the Ark from the Outside, rather than from the Void.
But I'll have to wait until I read the end of the canon version - I'm fairly sure that the Mutilated give a pretty concise explanation as to why the Inchoroi specifically are doomed, as a sort of weapon race, to see themselves as Damned in the Inverse Fire no matter what they do.
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Well they were built to heap damnation on themselves so that the inverse fire would be the perfect goad. Make something that does shit that damns it, give it a device that allows to see if they're damned. Start world hopping with big WUTTEAT and the Ark, each world is like a scratch card where you scratch away the silver by killing folk when you have 144k left you can see if you have won or not. The Ark knows there is a golden scratch card out there so keeps looking for it. Earwa is the $250,000 scratch card. The people of Earwa are the silver bit the Consult is coin you use to scratch it.
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I've heard rumours that there's a Glossary entry implying that some Earwan theorists believe that Ajokli sent the Ark from the Outside, rather than from the Void.
The entry says that some refer to the Horns of Golgotterath as two of the four horns of Ajokli. But, remember, Kellhus blasted the Canted Horn clean off with a laser weapon. This suggests he has perhaps injured or damaged Ajokli, or gained some other sort of victory over him.
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The entry says that some refer to the Horns of Golgotterath as two of the four horns of Ajokli. But, remember, Kellhus blasted the Canted Horn clean off with a laser weapon. This suggests he has perhaps injured or damaged Ajokli, or gained some other sort of victory over him.
Sure, by that premise.
How awesome was Kellhus taking the Canted Horn down on the Second Horde! Or even just him taking on the Second Horde to give the Ordeal time to take the blasted fortifications?!
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The entry says that some refer to the Horns of Golgotterath as two of the four horns of Ajokli. But, remember, Kellhus blasted the Canted Horn clean off with a laser weapon. This suggests he has perhaps injured or damaged Ajokli, or gained some other sort of victory over him.
Sure, by that premise.
How awesome was Kellhus taking the Canted Horn down on the Second Horde! Or even just him taking on the Second Horde to give the Ordeal time to take the blasted fortifications?!
It was fucking amazing!
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And Aurang trying to kill him just after by dropping a massive rock on his head from above, lol.
On the absolute, serwe the skin spy mentions that the nonman practice ellision(sp?)
Partial quote "the non-man seek the absolute"..."they practice Elision, thinking they can hide from Judgment, and so pass into oblivion unseen, find absolution in the absolute. The Dunyain use the same word the Kuniuri inherited from the nonmen,but enamoured of intellect and reason, they believe it to be a goal
So are the Dunyain just trying to slip between the gods as well, Malowebi has a brief rundown of what the "Absolute" means as well, when he hears the mutilated and K talking about it.
I don't know what it means either in any context really.
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And just exactly why would Ajokli create a tool that motivates the closing off of the Outside, ending his feasting on souls?
What if the Consult ends up locking them self in with Ajokli? (I don't really buy that interpretation either, just speculating)
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Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?
I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I think Kellhus originally was an actual prophet, which would explain the halos. Also, a couple of times he also just says stuff and later it turns out to be true, to his surprise, like Saubons first battle. At one point he says something along the lines of "I am TRUTH! Why would I not choose the vessel that can reach the most souls?" to Akka seemingly channeling the god. Another piece of evidence is how he uses words like "wicked" when talking with his father, which makes no sense to Moe sr.
We know that actions in Earwa can change the way gods perceive things. Because White Luck failed Yatwer now believes he was always gonna fail no matter what, even though she believed he was always gonna succeed no matter what earlier. These changes is directly or indirectly due to the No-God since the gods can't see it. I think that somewhere between the Prince of Nothing and the Aspect-Emperor, he stopped doing what the god told him because what the god told him makes no sense when you factor in the existence of the No-God. This changed the way the gods views him, and now they think he is and has always been a false prophet. But like the Judging Eye, if you get prophet powers once you keep them forever even if the gods no longer think you are one.
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Hello! First post so be gentle...
I read and reread the Golden Room many times to try and unpick the ambiguity of Kellhus and Ajokli's relationship. I feel they are analogues of one another - both separate from their 'race', both great decievers and quick to betray, both have crossed into each other's 'realm'.
As stated by Bakker, Ajokli has been involved with Kellhus since the Circumfixion, but Kellhus didn't know it was Ajokli until later ('light of delusion'). Kellhus himself tells Proyas that he has been to Hell. I believe this is literal and that he 'struck treaties' there - unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I imagine their relationship to be a mirror of Kellhus crossing the Stepe with Cnaiur - trackless/conditioned ground, Cnaiur's constant vigilance against Kellhus - this could be why Kellhus repeats 'there is a head on a pole...'
(I apologise for the stream of consciousnes - I'm typing this on a phone on a train)
Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
Many thanks for letting me join, and thank you for all the insights that without which I would be lost while trying to make sense of these novels!
N
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Hello! First post so be gentle...
I read and reread the Golden Room many times to try and unpick the ambiguity of Kellhus and Ajokli's relationship. I feel they are analogues of one another - both separate from their 'race', both great decievers and quick to betray, both have crossed into each other's 'realm'.
As stated by Bakker, Ajokli has been involved with Kellhus since the Circumfixion, but Kellhus didn't know it was Ajokli until later ('light of delusion'). Kellhus himself tells Proyas that he has been to Hell. I believe this is literal and that he 'struck treaties' there - unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I imagine their relationship to be a mirror of Kellhus crossing the Stepe with Cnaiur - trackless/conditioned ground, Cnaiur's constant vigilance against Kellhus - this could be why Kellhus repeats 'there is a head on a pole...'
(I apologise for the stream of consciousnes - I'm typing this on a phone on a train)
Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
Many thanks for letting me join, and thank you for all the insights that without which I would be lost while trying to make sense of these novels!
N
Welcome to TSA Nichamian!
It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?
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Hello! First post so be gentle...
I read and reread the Golden Room many times to try and unpick the ambiguity of Kellhus and Ajokli's relationship. I feel they are analogues of one another - both separate from their 'race', both great decievers and quick to betray, both have crossed into each other's 'realm'.
As stated by Bakker, Ajokli has been involved with Kellhus since the Circumfixion, but Kellhus didn't know it was Ajokli until later ('light of delusion'). Kellhus himself tells Proyas that he has been to Hell. I believe this is literal and that he 'struck treaties' there - unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I imagine their relationship to be a mirror of Kellhus crossing the Stepe with Cnaiur - trackless/conditioned ground, Cnaiur's constant vigilance against Kellhus - this could be why Kellhus repeats 'there is a head on a pole...'
(I apologise for the stream of consciousnes - I'm typing this on a phone on a train)
Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
Many thanks for letting me join, and thank you for all the insights that without which I would be lost while trying to make sense of these novels!
N
Welcome to TSA Nichamian!
It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?
Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Nichamian.
unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I wish we knew more about Ajokli's relationship with the Outside, and Hell specifically. I know it's poor logic but we can't yet disprove that Ajokli didn't need to assure the Outside or Ciphrang or Gods or whatever that he'd feed souls to the Outside if they let him make his play in Earwa.
Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
Welcome to TSA Nichamian!
It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?
Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.
It seems to be telepathic - or Daimotic, or whichevery.
There's also the later instruction not to look at the Inverse Fire.
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Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?
My understanding is that since Ajoklis the trickster god has made a pact with Kellhus, he is giving him the ability to manifest such divine marks that will aid Kellhus in his quest, of whatever it is.
I still don't understand clearly what Ajoklis was hoping to achieve. I should re-read the relevant passage or the whole book for that matter. :P
If my theory holds true it inverts the traditional prophet - hero trope, as the perceived divinity of Kellhus is down to his pact with the devil (or the most devilish divine power of Earwa).
So Kellhus is a Faust in a way and by selling his soul he gets the trappings of a divine prophet.
Now I read somewhere in this thread that Bakker confirmed that Kellhus since his crucifixion (circumfixion ok) has been in communion with Ajoklis. If this holds true, then for me a lot of things make sense, because it is after this incident that he starts having halos and speaking to the god (which initially thought was the No-God).
Which brings us back to the confrontation with Moenghus when Kellhus on purpose lies to his father telling him, that the No-God speaks to him. Maybe Kellhus knew that his father as a Dunyain would have thrown his lot with the Inchoroi and the Consult, that's why he lies to him and of course anticipates the Dosult, hence the need for a divine (infernal really) boost.
If only he could avoid being salted...
Also the trickster god in the end is unmade by the No-God, which sounds appropriate / fitting.
Wow long stream of consciousness post.
Feel feel to jump in!
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Nichamian.
unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I wish we knew more about Ajokli's relationship with the Outside, and Hell specifically. I know it's poor logic but we can't yet disprove that Ajokli didn't need to assure the Outside or Ciphrang or Gods or whatever that he'd feed souls to the Outside if they let him make his play in Earwa.
Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
Welcome to TSA Nichamian!
It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?
Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.
It seems to be telepathic - or Daimotic, or whichevery.
There's also the later instruction not to look at the Inverse Fire.
I actually need to double check this. I strongly recall the instruction to not look into the Inverse Fire was telepathic. But for some reason I think the conversation before they walk inside the Ark was out loud?
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Nichamian.
unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I wish we knew more about Ajokli's relationship with the Outside, and Hell specifically. I know it's poor logic but we can't yet disprove that Ajokli didn't need to assure the Outside or Ciphrang or Gods or whatever that he'd feed souls to the Outside if they let him make his play in Earwa.
Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
Welcome to TSA Nichamian!
It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?
Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.
It seems to be telepathic - or Daimotic, or whichevery.
There's also the later instruction not to look at the Inverse Fire.
I actually need to double check this. I strongly recall the instruction to not look into the Inverse Fire was telepathic. But for some reason I think the conversation before they walk inside the Ark was out loud?
Here's the section where Malo is warned away from the Goad:
Wonder had him straining at the margins of his vision to decode the flames at first, for in no way could he sense the stain of sorcery in the unnatural burning.
Avert your eyes... a presence instructed.
Whether the voice was his own or belonged to the Aspect-Emperor he did not know, but it bent the arrow of his attention as if it were his own...
Seems like telepathy, maybe a form of Compulsion?
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Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?
My understanding is that since Ajoklis the trickster god has made a pact with Kellhus, he is giving him the ability to manifest such divine marks that will aid Kellhus in his quest, of whatever it is.
I still don't understand clearly what Ajoklis was hoping to achieve. I should re-read the relevant passage or the whole book for that matter. :P
If my theory holds true it inverts the traditional prophet - hero trope, as the perceived divinity of Kellhus is down to his pact with the devil (or the most devilish divine power of Earwa).
So Kellhus is a Faust in a way and by selling his soul he gets the trappings of a divine prophet.
Now I read somewhere in this thread that Bakker confirmed that Kellhus since his crucifixion (circumfixion ok) has been in communion with Ajoklis. If this holds true, then for me a lot of things make sense, because it is after this incident that he starts having halos and speaking to the god (which initially thought was the No-God).
Which brings us back to the confrontation with Moenghus when Kellhus on purpose lies to his father telling him, that the No-God speaks to him. Maybe Kellhus knew that his father as a Dunyain would have thrown his lot with the Inchoroi and the Consult, that's why he lies to him and of course anticipates the Dosult, hence the need for a divine (infernal really) boost.
If only he could avoid being salted...
Also the trickster god in the end is unmade by the No-God, which sounds appropriate / fitting.
Wow long stream of consciousness post.
Feel feel to jump in!
Did he lie to Moenghus though? Maybe he actually thought it was the No-God communicating with him at that point. It reminds me of the "I war against the God" thing. Does Kellhus think this is the No-God sending visions to him or does he know it's Ajokli?
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...
On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.
Does Kellhus think this is the No-God sending visions to him or does he know it's Ajokli?
In TTT, if he's being honest with Moenghus, he thinks it's the former. As per Bakker's comments on the AMA, he doesn't ever realize it's Ajokli. In text this interpretation is bolstered by Kellhus' remarks to Proyas in TGO about how he no longer trusts the Voice or the Visions and how listening to it/them when it/they told him to kill his father was a mistake. In TUC, this is further addressed when Kellhus pulls Proyas up from being slung to talk to him about the Darkness moving him more and more.
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Darkness as in "what's before", or "the strings" or "evil"?
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...
On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.
Does Kellhus think this is the No-God sending visions to him or does he know it's Ajokli?
In TTT, if he's being honest with Moenghus, he thinks it's the former. As per Bakker's comments on the AMA, he doesn't ever realize it's Ajokli. In text this interpretation is bolstered by Kellhus' remarks to Proyas in TGO about how he no longer trusts the Voice or the Visions and how listening to it/them when it/they told him to kill his father was a mistake. In TUC, this is further addressed when Kellhus pulls Proyas up from being slung to talk to him about the Darkness moving him more and more.
I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time. He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!?
I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him. But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.
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Darkness as in "what's before", or "the strings" or "evil"?
That Comes Before ;).
I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time. He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!?
I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him. But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.
Lol, we've had long talks about this. I know that fans out there find Bakker's AMA answers totally unprecedented by the text but I honestly don't experience the dissonance.
Kellhus was busy. One intellect and two hands, however distant his disciples. He went through varying stages of understanding the Visions (ultimately just electing to distrust them), mucked around with the Daimos as a tool against the Consult, and didn't have time to figure out about Ajokli specifically.
You know, little distracted, just out there trying to save the world ;). Focused, I'll bet Kellhus could have figured it out as he might have Kelmomas and Samarmus.
EDIT: As per your bold, Kellhus arguably fought the Holy War, straight into the Unification Wars, before immediately thereafter getting his hands on the Daimos. The incident on Mengedda could have been long before he stopped trusting the Visions or before he had a better understanding of the Daimos.
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Darkness as in "what's before", or "the strings" or "evil"?
That Comes Before ;).
I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time. He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!?
I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him. But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.
Lol, we've had long talks about this. I know that fans out there find Bakker's AMA answers totally unprecedented by the text but I honestly don't experience the dissonance.
Kellhus was busy. One intellect and two hands, however distant his disciples. He went through varying stages of understanding the Visions (ultimately just electing to distrust them), mucked around with the Daimos as a tool against the Consult, and didn't have time to figure out about Ajokli specifically.
You know, little distracted, just out there trying to save the world ;). Focused, I'll bet Kellhus could have figured it out as he might have Kelmomas and Samarmus.
EDIT: As per your bold, Kellhus arguably fought the Holy War, straight into the Unification Wars, before immediately thereafter getting his hands on the Daimos. The incident on Mengedda could have been long before he stopped trusting the Visions or before he had a better understanding of the Daimos.
That's the thing: I don't think Kellhus was hoodwinked. At least, I think I don't think the outcome (his salting) was entirely unexpected...
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...
On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.
Interesting.
So simple question but I presume the answer is not. Where do these halos come from?
Is it some kind of magic? Illusion magic to give him extra charisma?
En mass hallucination by the masses?
Kellhus levelled up to Super Saiyan and his golden aura manifests in the physical universe?
:P
Does it really it matter in the greater scheme?
But the idea that Kellhus behaved like a prophet - god - saint and he got the markings to prove it (like in the Wheel of Time when Rand receives his dragon tatoos if my memory serves me) is too seductive to simply let it go.
So was it Kellhus manipulating people to see these "divine" manifestations?
I can live with the idea that Kellhus did not know from the start that Ajokli was messing with his head and that maybe he thought he was communicating with the No-God.
Also going off a tangent, at some point Kellhus says that his thousand-fold thought fails him and all he perceives is darkness. Is it because of the effect of Ajokli taking him over and / or because a divine being is beyond the mundane the circuit of causation?
The blind spot to his immense mental faculty being a divine agent which is not subject to the rule that what comes before determines what comes after.
That would fit with the theme raised by other posters that this is a story about limits, blind spots and great powers being undone by things which they couldn't perceive, that is the unknown unknowns.
:D (smiley is for my allusion to Donald Rumsfield while discussing Kellhus and Ajokli )
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So was it Kellhus manipulating people to see these "divine" manifestations?
No... Or at least, not at first. In TTT we have a POV from Kellhus in which he's unable to explain to himself where they come from. He remarks that they cast no shadow (from memory).
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That's the thing: I don't think Kellhus was hoodwinked. At least, I think I don't think the outcome (his salting) was entirely unexpected...
You haven't made that thread yet have you :P?
Is it some kind of magic? Illusion magic to give him extra charisma?
En mass hallucination by the masses?
Kellhus levelled up to Super Saiyan and his golden aura manifests in the physical universe?
- I don't think so because on a similar note Bakker confirmed at ZDC that Kellhus levitating without the Mark in TUC was sorcery and I don't know why he'd admit that and not the haloes.
- Well, different characters see the haloes at different times, Serwe seeing them on Kellhus long before he learns sorcery or the Circumfixion. I think FB also brought up that characters in TUC "almost see them" on Proyas shortly before Kellhus betrays him.
- Quite possibly?
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It has to be because of Ajokli's divine influence.
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It has to be because of Ajokli's divine influence.
That doesn't seem immediately consistent with Bakker's answers. He came as close as to tell us (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl49y0w/) that it's safe to suppose the Visions Kellhus experiences are coming from Ajokli, but he refused to even take questions about the haloes.
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And that also wouldn't explain Mimara's haloes or the tapestry depicting her (not the Ekkinu) - which according to the AMA, Kellhus didn't know about.
I've brought it up a number of times over the years but one of my favorite profs taught a course on religious art during certain periods and haloes absolutely have rules regarding depiction, the shapes, the colours, etc, etc, which I'm sure Bakker is aware of given his riffing on the bible.
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And that also wouldn't explain Mimara's haloes
I'm actually interested in those, since for the life of me I can't remember her explicitly having Kellhus-type haloes.
If someone would direct me to the instances of Mimara being depicted with haloes, I would be very grateful.
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The main one is in WLW in the Mop when she sees herself with the Eye in the pond fully pregnant, with a shaved head (this was before she shaves it in her attempt to "remind" Nil'giccas), and silver haloes.
I also believe Mimara sees them in a reflection of a shield when the Imperial functionaries wash and dress her in the Umbilicus on Angongorea in TUC.
Then Kelmomas and Mimara both comment on the tapestry in TUC, which Esmenet is using as a blanket when Mimara shows up and Kelmomas sees a second time on the ground at the Last Whelming... I don't know if either of those reference her haloes.
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The main one is in WLW in the Mop when she sees herself with the Eye in the pond fully pregnant, with a shaved head (this was before she shaves it in her attempt to "remind" Nil'giccas), and silver haloes.
Thank you!
This one I remember, and I took it as just her seeing her salvation. This is also the workings of the Eye, while Kelhuss's haloes are visible to people who are not armed with supernatural powers.
I just re-read the moment in the Umbilicus, and it also has the Eye open. Mimara sees "the blinding glare of holiness" when she looks in the shield used as a mirror.
I don't think it's at all clear that we should connect those events to Kelhuss's haloes.
On the topic of the tapestry I'm not yet prepared to comment. I will concede, though, that in my first reading I just took it as a coincidence, since the imagery of pregnant women embodying holiness is so commonplace in our culture.
[EDIT] It's also important to note the way Mimara sees Esmenet's holiness and compare the wording to the moment with the shield-mirror in the same scene:
There she stands before her, Anasûrimbor Esmenet, the Blessed Empress of the Three Seas. Haggard. Palace-pale. A rose-silk sheet clutched to her breast ...
Dark with the writhing, straining shadows of countless carnal transgressions.
Glowing with the promise of paradise.
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I don't think it's at all clear that we should connect those events to Kelhuss's haloes.
Sure but haloes ;).
On the topic of the tapestry I'm not yet prepared to comment. I will concede, though, that in my first reading I just took it as a coincidence, since the imagery of pregnant women embodying holiness is so commonplace in our culture.
True enough but Mimara recognizes it as herself as she sees herself through the Eye in the Mop as I recall.
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True enough but Mimara recognizes it as herself as she sees herself through the Eye in the Mop as I recall.
She recognizes the scene from her memory, but she describes the person depicted as "a pregnant woman" and "blessed".
The tapestry should mean something, though.
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It does mean something that's for sure. I'd say a prophecy of some sort. But, as per usual Bakker, I doubt we'll ever get any explanation at all. I asked him in the Q&A if Kellhus knew of the tapestry, his answer was no.
If a picture depicts the scene when she sees herself with Haloes in the Mop...there has to be significance there. What? Your guess is as good as any.
Here's mine. She is the holiest person alive and literally THE GOD walking and the exact opposite of the No-God. And, will in fact negate the No-God. That tapestry is a picture of the savior of the world.
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Kellhus at some point expressed a very low opinion of the God of Gods, which throws me off noticeably. Not in the sense that I'm perturbed by it, but in the sense of making the subject much murkier than it was before. And I'm not even sure Kellhus should be taken seriously there.
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Kellhus at some point expressed a very low opinion of the God of Gods, which throws me off noticeably. Not in the sense that I'm perturbed by it, but in the sense of making the subject much murkier than it was before. And I'm not even sure Kellhus should be taken seriously there.
To your point, I'm always unsure that when Kellhus talks of the God of Gods he just is talking about the 100. All, I've ever taking seriously that he's said about the God of Gods, is that he sleeps. Quite frankly, I think all his commentary TGO onwards is all about the 100.
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To your point, I'm always unsure that when Kellhus talks of the God of Gods he just is talking about the 100. All, I've ever taking seriously that he's said about the God of Gods, is that he sleeps. Quite frankly, I think all his commentary TGO onwards is all about the 100.
I also get that impression, yes.
P.S.
Smoker Loki
Nice!
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My autocorrect and me don't get along. But that was nice! ;)
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- I don't think so because on a similar note Bakker confirmed at ZDC that Kellhus levitating without the Mark in TUC was sorcery and I don't know why he'd admit that and not the haloes.
Which part are you referring to?
I thought that was a hologram of Kellhus prepared by the Consult to distract the Ordeal while they were dealing with Kellhus (ie trying to convert him to their cause).
Or am I talking another incident?
Also how can sorcery leave no mark? Unless of course Kellhus also unlocked the secrets of Psukhe?
The more questions we ask, the more question we get!
PS: Is Bakker a fan of Lynch and Twin Peaks by any chance? Because his writing has certain Lynchian traits, if I can use the term.
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- I don't think so because on a similar note Bakker confirmed at ZDC that Kellhus levitating without the Mark in TUC was sorcery and I don't know why he'd admit that and not the haloes.
Which part are you referring to?
I thought that was a hologram of Kellhus prepared by the Consult to distract the Ordeal while they were dealing with Kellhus (ie trying to convert him to their cause).
Or am I talking another incident?
Also how can sorcery leave no mark? Unless of course Kellhus also unlocked the secrets of Psukhe?
The more questions we ask, the more question we get!
It's the part where Sorweel tries to kill him for the last time.
I don't see why Kellhus gaining some knowledge of the Psûhke would be far-fetched though.
Also, I feel there is a Bakker quote somewhere in which he says that the "halos" are not sorcerous. Also, doesn't Serwë see the Halos on the skin-spy impersonating Kellhus? Pretty clear indication that they are user-generated, we thought back when...
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...
It's the part where Sorweel tries to kill him for the last time.
I don't see why Kellhus gaining some knowledge of the Psûhke would be far-fetched though.
Also, I feel there is a Bakker quote somewhere in which he says that the "halos" are not sorcerous. Also, doesn't Serwë see the Halos on the skin-spy impersonating Kellhus? Pretty clear indication that they are user-generated, we thought back when...
As per Wilshire... (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2363.msg38453#msg38453)
Serwe does see the haloes on the Skin-Spy impersonating Kellhus.
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As per Wilshire... (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2363.msg38453#msg38453)
Serwe does see the haloes on the Skin-Spy impersonating Kellhus.
Pretty much alerting us to the fact that the source of the halos wouldn't be Kellhus himself, or something gifted upon him. Rather, since she sees them in Kellhus' actual absence, the halo's presence must be predicated on her and Kellhus' visage. So, one of the few plausible explanations would be that they are perceptually added by the viewer upon Kellhus. Literal "lights" of delusion.
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Kellhus at some point expressed a very low opinion of the God of Gods, which throws me off noticeably. Not in the sense that I'm perturbed by it, but in the sense of making the subject much murkier than it was before. And I'm not even sure Kellhus should be taken seriously there.
To your point, I'm always unsure that when Kellhus talks of the God of Gods he just is talking about the 100. All, I've ever taking seriously that he's said about the God of Gods, is that he sleeps. Quite frankly, I think all his commentary TGO onwards is all about the 100.
I'm just re-reading TUC and got to the point where Proyas asks Kellhus about the God, and his reply was that it is as blind to its own Creation as Men are to themselves. He definitely isn't referring to the 100, as they had just been discussing the 100.
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...
It's the part where Sorweel tries to kill him for the last time.
I don't see why Kellhus gaining some knowledge of the Psûhke would be far-fetched though.
Also, I feel there is a Bakker quote somewhere in which he says that the "halos" are not sorcerous. Also, doesn't Serwë see the Halos on the skin-spy impersonating Kellhus? Pretty clear indication that they are user-generated, we thought back when...
As per Wilshire... (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2363.msg38453#msg38453)
Serwe does see the haloes on the Skin-Spy impersonating Kellhus.
Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?
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Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?
If the holograms could be projected that far, wouldn't that invalidate most of the need for skin-spies?
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Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?
If the holograms could be projected that far, wouldn't that invalidate most of the need for skin-spies?
I meant more like having a device on them. Sort of how like they made one with a soul, one Inchoiri who could manage magic, salvaged one nuke. Perhaps they managed one hologram projector for a special Kellhus skin-spy.
Though, honestly, I can't recall when this scene happened. Unless I'm missing something
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I meant more like having a device on them. Sort of how like they made one with a soul, one Inchoiri who could manage magic, salvaged one nuke. Perhaps they managed one hologram projector for a special Kellhus skin-spy.
Though, honestly, I can't recall when this scene happened. Unless I'm missing something
I think it's just too early for that. I don't really think any of that stuff worked pre-Dûnsult.
The scene is in TWP, I'm pretty sure, or maybe TTT.
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I'm just re-reading TUC and got to the point where Proyas asks Kellhus about the God, and his reply was that it is as blind to its own Creation as Men are to themselves. He definitely isn't referring to the 100, as they had just been discussing the 100.
I take it in a far more general sense of the immanent God, where the Hundred is His most significant part.
Not strictly, though, it's just my first impression, based on what was said about the Hundred previously and their general status as parts of the God. There are, of course, other ways to understand Kellhus' words.
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Yea, it's exactly how I take it since TGO and his talk with Proyas, the whole "IT" talk. See, this is where we have to wonder when and where did Ajokli start to influence him and I don't think it's this far back. Influence...he's, but speak through Kellhus, I just don't but it.
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So I have been re-reading passages from the GO and the UC.
And I am trying to put everything together.
Kellhus goes mad during this circumfixion which breaks his spirit and allows the agents from the Outside into his mind.
Initially he thinks it is the No-God who speaks to him, for whatever reason. Maybe the influence of Achamian, the discovery of the Consult and so on.
Then he says that he learns to ignore the voices in his head.
"He suffered visions, certainly, but he had long ceased to trust them".
GO, p. 121, Chapter Aorsi (hard pack version)
We know that during the Unification Wars, Kellhus studies Daimos and he walks in the Outside and he comes back. Presumably during this time, he makes the deal with Ajokli.
But maybe Ajokli being the trickster god, cheats Kellhus into thinking that he is the God of Gods.
My impression is that when Kellhus reveals to Proyas that the God of Gods is the antithesis of love and that he cares not, and says that the damnation of mankind is the granary of the gods, Kellhus has in mind Ajokli, but he does not know it.
I mean this is the trickster god, surely he could trick Kellhus.
Kellhus labours under the impression that he has some deal with Ajokli-who-pretends-to -be the god of gods and proceeds with his Great Ordeal. Possibly he is under the impression that if he vanquishes the Consult and its allies, the god of gods will somehow reward him.
This line, the living should not haunt the dead is inserted a few times.
Kellhus says to the Dunyain allies of the Consult that he is an inverted prophet. This echoes his conversation with Proyas, where he says a prophet brings word of mortals to the gods.
"Then what is their purpose?"
"Is it not plain? To deliver word of Men to the Gods".
GO, p. 122, chapter Aorsi.
"I bore word of the temporal to the divine"
UC, chapter the Golden Room, p.415
Right until that point Kellhus is in control.
But then Ajoklis takes over, he is the trickster god and more importantly he reveals to the Dunyain that basically the Ark is the deepest topos on Earwa which allows him to seep through and take over Kellhus.
"Because in all the World, no place has witnessed more terror, more obscenity, brutality, or sublime trauma. Your Golden Room is scarcely more than a bubble floating upon the Transcendent Pit. Hell, my brothers. Hell pollutes its every shadow, smokes from its every surface, creeps through its every brace..."
UC, The Golden Room, p. 421 ( some italics were removed but you get the gist).
It is quite conceivable that Kellhus had a different plan altogether from Ajokli and in the end Ajokli is the one who gets undone.
Kellhus was perhaps under the impression that he would somehow strike a bargain with the gods. I will terminate the effort to shut the world, because if the Consult is successful the gods will lose, but in return the living will not be claimed by the gods or something.
And this is where my thought fails me but without having a clearer picture of the metaphysics of damnation is hard to tell what a possible bargain between Kellhus and Ajokli would look like. But we should not exclude the possibility that Ajokli manipulated Kellhus.
;D
Thoughts?
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You make some great observations. But for me, whatever way that Ajokli tricks Kellhus, I think his views of the God are his own. He's perfectly able to draw his own conclusions to the end. It's just that his agency is removed from him in the end :)
"The living shall not haunt the dead" is a fantastic line. I've often thought on what it means. I always thought it meant that the living' s sense of right and wrong - their notion of damnation - was what held the dammed in place... But then Bakker has shat on the idea of subjective truth leading to objective truth, so I don't see how the living *can* haunt the dead.
It's still a great line.
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Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?
If the holograms could be projected that far, wouldn't that invalidate most of the need for skin-spies?
I meant more like having a device on them. Sort of how like they made one with a soul, one Inchoiri who could manage magic, salvaged one nuke. Perhaps they managed one hologram projector for a special Kellhus skin-spy.
Though, honestly, I can't recall when this scene happened. Unless I'm missing something
That would require a great deal of prescience I'm not convinced the Consult has. AFAIR, Serwe's rape by the haloed skin-spy was well before his rise/acceptance as the Warrior-Prophet. I'm not convinced they'd even have known rumors of the halos, let alone invested the effort and energy required to make it a part of the deception.
I rather think all the haloes presented (Mimara's included) are a matter of self-deception. Self-delusion from those who want to believe so badly they make it manifest. Certainly this is true with Serwe, who from the first thought of Kellhus as a literal God walking the earth. And why it is so telling of Kellhus' self-delusions when he begins to see them for himself.
For all his ubermensch capabilities, Kellhus has always suffered pride. I believe this to be the weakness Ajokli exploited.
edited for teh grammarz
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I'll reiterate for posterity that I don't think Kellhus and Ajokli made any deals.
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I'll reiterate for posterity that I don't think Kellhus and Ajokli made any deals.
Does thou scribbler whisper in thoust ear? Eh, Madness? Than what deals do you think is being referred to? Who is dealing with whom?
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Lol, what?
A lot of readers seem to think that Kellhus and Ajokli made deals and Ajokli played Kellhus. Likewise that Kellhus made "pacts with the Pit."
I'm of the opinion that Ajokli played Kellhus entirely, the two of them never having "met" directly. Likewise my interpretation is that Ajokli had to make deals with Hell, not Kellhus.
But again, I'm a minority ;).
And if by scribbler, you mean Bakker, I haven't talked to him since Zaudunyanicon except for an email or two.
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I'll reiterate for posterity that I don't think Kellhus and Ajokli made any deals.
Then why is Ajokli mad with him after the Resumption?
“ANASÛRIMBOR!” he roared in no human voice. “HEAR ME, DECEIVER!”
“I SHALL HAVE MY OWN PORTION! MY OWN PRIZE!”
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It's interesting that I can't articulate my distinctions (largely because no one aside from profgrape and draft readers have tried teasing the particulars with me).
I do attribute all dialogue by Kellhus in the Golden Room to Ajokli (profgrape and I have tried many times to work out the specifics regarding how/why Ajokli would speak from Kellhus' life experience, etc).
I don't attribute Cnaiur's dialogue to Ajokli. I think the authorial reasoning behind the "shadow of four horns" (badly paraphrasing) is to show that despite the No-God and their "blindness" to it (though Ajokli's agency might differ), the Gods, but specifically Ajokli, can still interact with and wield influence in the world.
EDIT: Likewise to show that that Cnaiur can't see the No-God because he's inhabited by Ajokli, thus the Gods can exercise agency in Earwa while still being unable to perceive the No-God.
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"The living shall not haunt the dead" is a fantastic line. I've often thought on what it means. I always thought it meant that the living' s sense of right and wrong - their notion of damnation - was what held the dammed in place... But then Bakker has shat on the idea of subjective truth leading to objective truth, so I don't see how the living *can* haunt the dead.
It's still a great line.
Thank you for this comment, I wasn't aware of this.
Which destroys my theory.
:)
In that case I entirely agree with you, what does this line mean? It has been repeated too many time, not to mean anything.
Maybe Kellhus was deluded in thinking he could fix the problem of damnation without going down the path of shutting the world. The same way he was deluded in thinking he was a prophet or divine. After all, himself admits he went a bit crazy.
God damn it, no answers, only questions within questions, wrapped in enigmas, bundled up with riddles.
:)
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I'll reiterate for posterity that I don't think Kellhus and Ajokli made any deals.
Interesting objection.
So when Kellhus speaks of pacts with the Pit, is that simply Ajokli speaking?
So does this mean that Kellhus was under the impression he had found a way to save the world, but Ajokli takes over and then the salting incident takes place due to Kelmonas and his plan is never put into action.
After all Kellhus himself says that his TTT fails him. I should find the reference, because at the time when I read it, I thought it was important in itself, but I forgot to highlight it in my book.
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Interesting objection.
So when Kellhus speaks of pacts with the Pit, is that simply Ajokli speaking?
So does this mean that Kellhus was under the impression he had found a way to save the world, but Ajokli takes over and then the salting incident takes place due to Kelmonas and his plan is never put into action.
These are things I think, yes, and that I'd like to tease implications from.
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]It's interesting that I can't articulate my distinctions (largely because no one aside from profgrape and draft readers have tried teasing the particulars with me).
I do attribute all dialogue by Kellhus in the Golden Room to Ajokli (profgrape and I have tried many times to work out the specifics regarding how/why Ajokli would speak from Kellhus' life experience, etc).
I don't attribute Cnaiur's dialogue to Ajokli. I think the authorial reasoning behind the "shadow of four horns" (badly paraphrasing) is to show that despite the No-God and their "blindness" to it (though Ajokli's agency might differ), the Gods, but specifically Ajokli, can still interact with and wield influence in the world.
EDIT: Likewise to show that that Cnaiur can't see the No-God because he's inhabited by Ajokli, thus the Gods can exercise agency in Earwa while still being unable to perceive the No-God.
Correct the Gods can still function, because the Outside isn't shut yet....ergo Kellhus isn't done.
Oh, from my reading and the simple fact of the decapitants and that glossary entry and the head in a pole scene from TGO (that clearly was Ajokli), they had some sort of relationship. But, I agree, I don't think Kellhus struck any deals.
And, here's my confusion where you then contribute ALL dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli. Kellhus was going in the GR on his own terms. One clue this isn't Ajokli the whole time, is telling Malowebi avert your eyes.... Why would Ajokli care what a mere soul saw in the IF? All dialogue up until the point Kellhus's head bursts into flames, I attribute to Kellhus. I believe that Ajokli is there waiting for the right time and steps in when wants and then the dialogue about making them his slaves and he'll in Earth, blah, blah, blah.
I don't see how you can think they didn't make a pact and attribute all dialogue to Ajokli. Doesn't make sense to me. I agree, no pact and Ajokli just using Kellhus as a vehicle for treachery. But, I can't attribute the dialogue to Ajokli. Not at all. Anyhow. We're here, let's tease this out...meld or what have you.
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These are things I think, yes, and that I'd like to tease implications from.
I agree with you wholeheartedly here. But, then how do you, again, attribute all dialogue to Ajokli? I just don't see where your toe positions align, at all. Could you help me out to make it clearer please? I love you!
[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
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Kellhus was going in the GR on his own terms.
Then what would those terms be, if he isn't relying on a divine agency to back him up when he is clearly outmatched and knows this?
On a different note, I like how Malowebi calls Ajokli "the Ciphrang-God".
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]It's interesting that I can't articulate my distinctions (largely because no one aside from profgrape and draft readers have tried teasing the particulars with me).
I do attribute all dialogue by Kellhus in the Golden Room to Ajokli (profgrape and I have tried many times to work out the specifics regarding how/why Ajokli would speak from Kellhus' life experience, etc).
I don't attribute Cnaiur's dialogue to Ajokli. I think the authorial reasoning behind the "shadow of four horns" (badly paraphrasing) is to show that despite the No-God and their "blindness" to it (though Ajokli's agency might differ), the Gods, but specifically Ajokli, can still interact with and wield influence in the world.
EDIT: Likewise to show that that Cnaiur can't see the No-God because he's inhabited by Ajokli, thus the Gods can exercise agency in Earwa while still being unable to perceive the No-God.
Correct the Gods can still function, because the Outside isn't shut yet....ergo Kellhus isn't done.
Oh, from my reading and the simple fact of the decapitants and that glossary entry and the head in a pole scene from TGO (that clearly was Ajokli), they had some sort of relationship. But, I agree, I don't think Kellhus struck any deals.
And, here's my confusion where you then contribute ALL dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli. Kellhus was going in the GR on his own terms. One clue this isn't Ajokli the whole time, is telling Malowebi avert your eyes.... Why would Ajokli care what a mere soul saw in the IF? All dialogue up until the point Kellhus's head bursts into flames, I attribute to Kellhus. I believe that Ajokli is there waiting for the right time and steps in when wants and then the dialogue about making them his slaves and he'll in Earth, blah, blah, blah.
I don't see how you can think they didn't make a pact and attribute all dialogue to Ajokli. Doesn't make sense to me. I agree, no pact and Ajokli just using Kellhus as a vehicle for treachery. But, I can't attribute the dialogue to Ajokli. Not at all. Anyhow. We're here, let's tease this out...meld or what have you.
One way to think about it: it's Kellhus speaking what he thinks are his thoughts but in truth, the impetus (AKA DTCB) is coming from Ajokli. When the Ciphrang-God manifests, it's really just to cow the Mutilated into submission.
At this point, I'm more or less convinced that the Great Ordeal was little more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the GR, the topos of topoi.
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Fair enough. Not that I'll agree just yet, but, if that's the case (the ordeal was to get Ajokli to GR) why wouldn't there be a pact between him and Kellhus?
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Why would Ajokli care about Malowebi's soul and him looking into the IF?
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Why would Ajokli care about Malowebi's soul and him looking into the IF?
For that matter, why would Kellhus? We still don't have any idea what shenanigans he was up to replacing Malowebi with his previous decapitant anyway.
Too many of the motivations behind this stuff are too dark.
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"The living shall not haunt the dead" is a fantastic line. I've often thought on what it means. I always thought it meant that the living' s sense of right and wrong - their notion of damnation - was what held the dammed in place... But then Bakker has shat on the idea of subjective truth leading to objective truth, so I don't see how the living *can* haunt the dead.
It's still a great line.
Thank you for this comment, I wasn't aware of this.
Which destroys my theory.
:)
In that case I entirely agree with you, what does this line mean? It has been repeated too many time, not to mean anything.
Maybe Kellhus was deluded in thinking he could fix the problem of damnation without going down the path of shutting the world. The same way he was deluded in thinking he was a prophet or divine. After all, himself admits he went a bit crazy.
God damn it, no answers, only questions within questions, wrapped in enigmas, bundled up with riddles.
:)
I did, I think at some point, speculate that the "living shall not haunt the dead" line specifically refers to Kellhus' use (and perhaps misuse, if you'd like to see it from that persepctive) of the Daimos. Kellhus manages, via some "hidden" function of the Daimos (the head-on-a-pole-beind-him), to walk into the Pit and to walk back out living. This is a distinct violation of what probably always has been. Consider this whole "scene:"
We pondered you, says the most crocodilian of the Sons.
“But I have never been here.”
You said this very thing, it grates, seizing the line of the horizon, wrapping him like a fly. Legs click like machines of war. Yesss …
And you refuse to succumb to their sucking mouths, ringed with one million pins of silver. You refuse to drip fear like honey—because you have no fear.
Because you fear not damnation.
Because there is a head on a pole behind you.
“And what was your reply?”
The living shall not haunt the dead.
So, Kellhus walks into the Pit. The Ciphrang tell him that they have studied him. Kellhus corrects them, saying he has never been there. The Ciphrang correct him, saying not only has he been there, but they have had this exact conversation before. In other words, this is another example of this all having already happened. So, Kellhus asks, what did you reply to me? And they tell him, quite frankly mind you, "the living shall not haunt the dead," so in other words, he is already dead. You shall not be a living person skulking around in the Pit. The reverse is always the case, the Ciphrang haunt the world, not the reverse, and the Ciphrang happily tell Kellhus this will be the case again.
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Why would Ajokli care about Malowebi's soul and him looking into the IF?
Trying to prevent an asset turning against Kellhus? I don't think it's so much about Ajokli caring as wanting to ensure there were any hiccups along the way (PS how'd that work out for you, Ajokli?).
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Why would Ajokli care about Malowebi's soul and him looking into the IF?
Trying to prevent an asset turning against Kellhus? I don't think it's so much about Ajokli caring as wanting to ensure there were any hiccups along the way (PS how'd that work out for you, Ajokli?).
I just don't think the "all Ajokli" explanation fits any more than the "all Kellhus" explanation.
The key is that both are entangled with each other. It doesn't seem, to me, to fit the narrative and thematic purpose if it's so cut and dry.
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I just don't think the "all Ajokli" explanation fits any more than the "all Kellhus" explanation.
The key is that both are entangled with each other. It doesn't seem, to me, to fit the narrative and thematic purpose if it's so cut and dry.
Right. I don't think it is "all Kellhus", I just do attribute the dialogue to him up until it's obvious that Ajokli has taking over. You know from Malowebi saying how it looks like Kellhus has black globular on him that that is Ajokli inhabiting him, or beginning to. I just don't think Ajokli decides to take over until....well he takes over, ghost rider style.
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Then what would those terms be, if he isn't relying on a divine agency to back him up when he is clearly outmatched and knows this?
On a different note, I like how Malowebi calls Ajokli "the Ciphrang-God".
How does he know he is outmatched? I never got the feeling he felt outmatched. As Bakker said, he had become so powerful he was literally speaking with the Gods voice.
I don't know what they would be with or without devine agency to back him up. I don't know what the plan was, not does anyone else it seems. I do think Ajokli used him, and some pacts had to be made. As, Kellhus calls himself the Inverse Prophet. He brought news of the Consult to the Gods. I just think he had his own ideas of what was going to go down and not Ajokli taking over and leaving him vulnerable.
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Right. I don't think it is "all Kellhus", I just do attribute the dialogue to him up until it's obvious that Ajokli has taking over. You know from Malowebi saying how it looks like Kellhus has black globular on him that that is Ajokli inhabiting him, or beginning to. I just don't think Ajokli decides to take over until....well he takes over, ghost rider style.
I agree in principle, but I do doubt that it is strictly true. We know that Kellhus was increasingly influenced by "darkness" as he neared Golgotterath and at least some (or maybe even most) was Ajolki's doing. So, while I do think that is "Kellhus" talking before his head is a gout of flames, I really doubt it is "pure Kellhus" and even that a "pure Kellhus" exists at that point.
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Trying to prevent an asset turning against Kellhus? I don't think it's so much about Ajokli caring as wanting to ensure there were any hiccups along the way (PS how'd that work out for you, Ajokli?).
How did it work out for me? That he made a pact with Ajokli? Fits with him using the Diamos to roam hell. There is a reason Bakker won't talk about Haloes. I think Kellhus was always going to betray Ajokli. That's why I pointed to "avert your eyes". Kellhus had plans past the GR, I believe. RSB circa 2017 " Kellhus is dead....but not done."
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Right. I don't think it is "all Kellhus", I just do attribute the dialogue to him up until it's obvious that Ajokli has taking over. You know from Malowebi saying how it looks like Kellhus has black globular on him that that is Ajokli inhabiting him, or beginning to. I just don't think Ajokli decides to take over until....well he takes over, ghost rider style.
I agree in principle, but I do doubt that it is strictly true. We know that Kellhus was increasingly influenced by "darkness" as he neared Golgotterath and at least some (or maybe even most) was Ajolki's doing. So, while I do think that is "Kellhus" talking before his head is a gout of flames, I really doubt it is "pure Kellhus" and even that a "pure Kellhus" exists at that point.
I completely agree. It's still Kellhus, but the strings puppeteering him are growing more and more solid.
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I agree in principle, but I do doubt that it is strictly true. We know that Kellhus was increasingly influenced by "darkness" as he neared Golgotterath and at least some (or maybe even most) was Ajolki's doing. So, while I do think that is "Kellhus" talking before his head is a gout of flames, I really doubt it is "pure Kellhus" and even that a "pure Kellhus" exists at that point.
I can agree with that explanation.
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How does he know he is outmatched? I never got the feeling he felt outmatched. As Bakker said, he had become so powerful he was literally speaking with the Gods voice.
He is aware of the Dunsult possibility, as per his own words. And even being a prodigy among Dunyain doesn't mean he can take many of them on without worry. Even two against one is generally not good odds, which doesn't change in a sorcerous battle. Again, he basically should assume that the Dunyain in the Consult know sorcery. They had the means to learn it and the time to do so. Plus, they have the Tekne, and Kellhus does not.
Also, at some point Serwa states that, like everyone else, her father is outmatched. That's why she later fights Skuthula. Granted, she might be mistaken in evaluating Kellhus's sorcerous might, but she is also the most competent assessor we have.
So, Kellhus needed a wallop, and later we get Ajokli, who Kellhus is aware of (at least, we can read the Golden Room scenes this way). That explains his contingency, looks logical, and is supported by the narrative (though the latter is, of course, interpretative, as basically everything is in the Second Apocalypse).
That's not saying Kellhus didn't have other contingencies. It would be very disappointing to me if he didn't. But when we talk about pure power play with the Consult, Ajokli just works.
I just think he had his own ideas of what was going to go down and not Ajokli taking over and leaving him vulnerable.
That's straight up confirmed by Bakker (if the quote is needed, I will look for it). And I see it as a neat example of Kellhus making a mistake and suffering for it, which is fitting for the series as I understand it.
But yes, he should've planned for his failure and might surprise us with his options.
I agree in principle, but I do doubt that it is strictly true. We know that Kellhus was increasingly influenced by "darkness" as he neared Golgotterath and at least some (or maybe even most) was Ajolki's doing. So, while I do think that is "Kellhus" talking before his head is a gout of flames, I really doubt it is "pure Kellhus" and even that a "pure Kellhus" exists at that point.
That is my impression as well, though I feel it necessary to note that such situation would have everyone involved acting suboptimally until the point when only one agency is calling the shots. This eventually leads to the Consult's victory, but, more importantly, doesn't give us a clear picture of Kellhus or Ajokli's plans. We get a distorted representation of them, so even complete clarity on the matter of whose agency influences what events will likely leave us with insufficient information to make accurate predictions about the futures of Kellhus, Ajokli, and their stratagems.
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Oh, from my reading and the simple fact of the decapitants and that glossary entry and the head in a pole scene from TGO (that clearly was Ajokli), they had some sort of relationship. But, I agree, I don't think Kellhus struck any deals.
And, here's my confusion where you then contribute ALL dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli. Kellhus was going in the GR on his own terms. One clue this isn't Ajokli the whole time, is telling Malowebi avert your eyes.... Why would Ajokli care what a mere soul saw in the IF? All dialogue up until the point Kellhus's head bursts into flames, I attribute to Kellhus. I believe that Ajokli is there waiting for the right time and steps in when wants and then the dialogue about making them his slaves and he'll in Earth, blah, blah, blah.
I don't see how you can think they didn't make a pact and attribute all dialogue to Ajokli. Doesn't make sense to me. I agree, no pact and Ajokli just using Kellhus as a vehicle for treachery. But, I can't attribute the dialogue to Ajokli. Not at all. Anyhow. We're here, let's tease this out...meld or what have you.
Thanks, MSJ :).
For me it's the "globular black distortion" (badly paraphrasing) that Malowebi sees obscuring Kellhus' reflection about a page and a half before Malowebi see the same distortion over the other Decapitant, the one with horns, right before Kellhus head goes full-Ghost Rider.
It implies that Ajokli has already started puppeteering - as tleilaxu put it - Kellhus before Malowebi looks at the reflection at all.
I agree with you wholeheartedly here. But, then how do you, again, attribute all dialogue to Ajokli? I just don't see where your toe positions align, at all. Could you help me out to make it clearer please? I love you!
[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
Lol, well, I still have my final TUC "almanac-ish" post to do yet so I probably won't go breaking down the text line by line until I get that done.
I'm starting to waver on "all" but I'm still on about "most." profgrape is my Ajokli-Voice, always feeding my quibbling.
Kellhus was going in the GR on his own terms.
Then what would those terms be, if he isn't relying on a divine agency to back him up when he is clearly outmatched and knows this?
On a different note, I like how Malowebi calls Ajokli "the Ciphrang-God".
On the former, I think Kellhus honestly thought he was going to outmatch the possibility of Consult-Dunyain, at least with the help of Serwa et al., given that he'd suspected the possibility "since Dagliash."
On that latter, that is interesting.
One way to think about it: it's Kellhus speaking what he thinks are his thoughts but in truth, the impetus (AKA DTCB) is coming from Ajokli. When the Ciphrang-God manifests, it's really just to cow the Mutilated into submission.
At this point, I'm more or less convinced that the Great Ordeal was little more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the GR, the topos of topoi.
Thanks for trying to parse the particulars with me for months on end ;).
Fair enough. Not that I'll agree just yet, but, if that's the case (the ordeal was to get Ajokli to GR) why wouldn't there be a pact between him and Kellhus?
This crux is really interesting to me since *so* many readers seem to have interpreted the text as Ajokli and Kellhus making a deal. I never thought this and as per usual this discrepancy seems noteworthy to me. Besides the "pacts with the Pit" line, why does anyone think Kellhus and Ajokli had a conversation and made a transaction?
Why would Ajokli care about Malowebi's soul and him looking into the IF?
For that matter, why would Kellhus? We still don't have any idea what shenanigans he was up to replacing Malowebi with his previous decapitant anyway.
Too many of the motivations behind this stuff are too dark.
This honestly strikes me as important, especially given FB's assertion that there are more than two Decapitants in play - following from his reading of The Carathayan before even TUC.
I did, I think at some point, speculate that the "living shall not haunt the dead" line specifically refers to Kellhus' use (and perhaps misuse, if you'd like to see it from that persepctive) of the Daimos.
I'd have to check but - given that I can refer to the drafts a little more freely since Zaudunyanicon - I believe there is a line from Serwa to Moenghus in TGO regarding how "the dead outnumber us so" (badly paraphrasing).
I just don't think the "all Ajokli" explanation fits any more than the "all Kellhus" explanation.
The key is that both are entangled with each other. It doesn't seem, to me, to fit the narrative and thematic purpose if it's so cut and dry.
+1, I'm swinging around. But as above, I'm still more Ajokli, less Kellhus.
Right. I don't think it is "all Kellhus", I just do attribute the dialogue to him up until it's obvious that Ajokli has taking over. You know from Malowebi saying how it looks like Kellhus has black globular on him that that is Ajokli inhabiting him, or beginning to. I just don't think Ajokli decides to take over until....well he takes over, ghost rider style.
I mentioned my thoughts on this above - you infected me with your use of "globular" because I used it above and I don't think the text actually says that, does it?
As, Kellhus calls himself the Inverse Prophet. He brought news of the Consult to the Gods. I just think he had his own ideas of what was going to go down and not Ajokli taking over and leaving him vulnerable.
profgrape and I have talked about the "Inverse Prophet" line a lot...
He is aware of the Dunsult possibility, as per his own words. And even being a prodigy among Dunyain doesn't mean he can take many of them on without worry. Even two against one is generally not good odds, which doesn't change in a sorcerous battle. Again, he basically should assume that the Dunyain in the Consult know sorcery. They had the means to learn it and the time to do so. Plus, they have the Tekne, and Kellhus does not.
Also, at some point Serwa states that, like everyone else, her father is outmatched. That's why she later fights Skuthula. Granted, she might be mistaken in evaluating Kellhus's sorcerous might, but she is also the most competent assessor we have.
Perhaps, he is actually depending on his Daughter and the Ordeal to gain the Upright Horn and assist him.
So, Kellhus needed a wallop, and later we get Ajokli, who Kellhus is aware of (at least, we can read the Golden Room scenes this way). That explains his contingency, looks logical, and is supported by the narrative (though the latter is, of course, interpretative, as basically everything is in the Second Apocalypse).
See, nowhere did I get the sense that Kellhus was aware of the impending takeover. Aware that he was compromised, sure. By what or whom, no.
That's not saying Kellhus didn't have other contingencies. It would be very disappointing to me if he didn't. But when we talk about pure power play with the Consult, Ajokli just works.
Lol, profgrape is supposed to be making a thread... profgrape?
But yes, it seems likely from Bakker's "dead but not done" comment, and just appreciating Kellhus' intellect, that Kellhus had contingencies.
I'm still pining a Ministrate story.
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This crux is really interesting to me since *so* many readers seem to have interpreted the text as Ajokli and Kellhus making a deal. I never thought this and as per usual this discrepancy seems noteworthy to me. Besides the "pacts with the Pit" line, why does anyone think Kellhus and Ajokli had a conversation and made a transaction?
I think there's the possibility of a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, I'm just not one who truly thinks there was. I brought this up because I profgrape thinks there isn't a pact, why would the Ordeal be used to get Ajokli to the GR?
Here's what I think and it goes back to "the living shall not haunt the dead". They (Gods) "pondered" Kellhus and he evidently talked to them about the NG via the Diamos. No deal need be struck. But, Ajokli could have seen Kellhus's power and used it as a vehicle to create a "hell on Earth". I'm spitballing here, so I'll have to think on it some more.
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Perhaps, he is actually depending on his Daughter and the Ordeal to gain the Upright Horn and assist him.
This just doesn't work for me. If he needed their help, he shouldn't have gone into the Golden Room alone. He had every opportunity not to do so.
See, nowhere did I get the sense that Kellhus was aware of the impending takeover. Aware that he was compromised, sure. By what or whom, no.
It depends, for example, on who we attribute the line about striking deals with the Pit to. While I do think it's interesting to ponder Ajokli saying that (I didn't think that at all until you mentioned it), ultimately it seems far less likely to me than Kellhus making a pact with Ajokli to use a divine agency against the Consult as a countermeasure for Tekne and in general the unknowns of the Ark.
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Perhaps, he is actually depending on his Daughter and the Ordeal to gain the Upright Horn and assist him.
This just doesn't work for me. If he needed their help, he shouldn't have gone into the Golden Room alone. He had every opportunity not to do so.
Yes, but I think Bakker's answer in regards to his plan failing outline why that would make sense.
Thank you distantdiscord: Kellhus became less Kellhus and more Ajokli the nearer he came to Golgotterath. He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted.
His entering Golgotterath may very well have been due to the worsening situation with Ajokli. Think on how Kayutas and Serwa react during the discussion.
"I saw Father upon the Vigil."
"So soon?"
"We need to storm the Ark now!"
The plan very much seemed to be going ahead of schedule.
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Yes, but I think Bakker's answer in regards to his plan failing outline why that would make sense.
Then the timing doesn't really make sense. Why wouldn't Ajokli-possessing-Kellhus just storm the Golden Room by his lonesome a day or two earlier, if he is in such a hurry to manifest in the physical world that Kellhus's well-being doesn't matter to him? Kellhus was sufficiently close to the Ark for a while (I can't really buy that some couple of miles make the difference), but only enters it during the climactic battle, said battle being planned from the get-go. Postulating that he entered the Ark because he suddenly lost control exactly then seems contrived.
On the other hand, it makes perfect sense if we consider the whole Ajokli-as-a-weapon thing planned by him. Kellhus needs to battle full Dunyain. However good are his sorcerers, it's unreasonable to think they would be on par with the Dunsult. Even Serwa is much weaker than her father, which is evidenced by him using the Cant of Translocation over and over again while falling to successfully battle a flying enemy and her being able to use it once in a more or less calm circumstances and then requiring a prolonged rest. So Kellhus's engaging a God as his enforcer looks like a reasonable plan and explains his words about walking the Conditioned Ground in the Golden Room even without his Ordeal. Otherwise we need to attribute those words to Ajokli, and then they sound off. Not unexplainable, but off.
[EDIT] Another important thing that comes to mind is Kellhus using sorcery before his head gets engulfed in flames, but not during that time. Do we think that a God, even possessing a mortal, would be able to use sorcery? At the moment of entering the Golden Room the possession would need to be almost complete, so there is basically no Kellhus left, it's Ajokli uttering Metagnostic Cants.
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Yes, but I think Bakker's answer in regards to his plan failing outline why that would make sense.
Then the timing doesn't really make sense. Why wouldn't Ajokli-possessing-Kellhus just storm the Golden Room by his lonesome a day or two earlier, if he is in such a hurry to manifest in the physical world that Kellhus's well-being doesn't matter to him? Kellhus was sufficiently close to the Ark for a while (I can't really buy that some couple of miles make the difference), but only enters it during the climactic battle, said battle being planned from the get-go. Postulating that he entered the Ark because he suddenly lost control exactly then seems contrived.
I'm not sure where you are getting the assumptions that he was close enough previously. If anything, I would say we're shown and told that him getting close is precisely an important thing.
- We're told a couple times by Bakker in his Q&A that Kellhus' possession was 1. a gradual process and 2. got worse the closer he got to the Ark.
- Think on Kakaliol, the ciphrang we see a couple point of view entries on. It isn't until he's literally right next to the massive torpos of the Ark that he can slip his bindings to escape. He was right next to it, trapped. And only once nearly touching it.
So it certainly makes sense to me that Ajokli likely couldn't manifest as he did until they were in the golden room a bit.
I think the phrasing 'suddenly lost control' is off. He was losing control for a while. Bakker even outlined this, "He drifted into it, before finally being seized in the Golden Room." We're told he makes other mistakes because of his spiritual duress, namely missing that Esement would free Kelmomas. His thinking was compromised. Why he might have thought he walked the conditioned ground can certainly be attributed to flawed thinking whilst under divine influence, if not outright possession.
On the other hand, it makes perfect sense if we consider the whole Ajokli-as-a-weapon thing planned by him. Kellhus needs to battle full Dunyain. However good are his sorcerers, it's unreasonable to think they would be on par with the Dunsult. Even Serwa is much weaker than her father, which is evidenced by him using the Cant of Translocation over and over again while falling to successfully battle a flying enemy and her being able to use it once in a more or less calm circumstances and then require a prolonged rest. So Kellhus's engaging a God as his enforcer looks like a reasonable plan and explains his words about walking the Conditioned Ground in the Golden Room even without his Ordeal. Otherwise we need to attribute those words to Ajokli, and then they sound off. Not unexplainable, but off.
[EDIT] Another important thing that comes to mind is Kellhus using sorcery before his head gets engulfed in flames, but not during that time. Do we think that a God, even possessing a mortal, would be able to use sorcery? At the moment of entering the Golden Room the possession would need to be almost complete, so there is basically no Kellhus left, it's Ajokli uttering Metagnostic Cants.
It hardly makes perfect sense. Why is it unreasonable to think they could have take the Mutilated absent a God? Serwa, despite being lesser, is still an amazing witch. Kellhus is likely the best ever, Kayutas is an amazing warrior, and the host of Schools are quite capable. The Mutilated had no more nukes, we see no more lazer weapons, they have no magic, and Aurang and Mek die. Seems like they certainly could have been their match.
I think you're viewing the possession as a switch flipping. One moment Kellhus, the next Ajokli. but several times the implication is that it a gradual process, a 'drifting'. I see no issue with the idea of Kellhus having sorcery at his command until Ajokli truly takes over. Kellhus is merely the one using it until it happens, whilst under the divine influence.
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I'm not sure where you are getting the assumptions that he was close enough previously.
I don't like this idea at all because the Ordeal was extremely close to the Horns. So basically it comes to exact measures, in fiction. A mile away Kellhus is compromised but still can more or less think straight, half a mile away he is extremely compromised, flying about the Upright Horn (like, a couple of hundred feet away from the Ark?) in a climactic battle with Aurang he loses it and goes to his death. If his plan was to get the Ordeal into the Golden Room with him, then that doesn't work, so what's left is only Ajokli's plan, which Kellhus isn't aware of in accordance with the constraints of the "Kellhus doesn’t know about Ajokli" theory. So going into the Room alone is him committing suicide and not noticing it because of the divine influence. Yet he is able to cast Metagnostic Cants, use noticeably Dunyain terms, and hold a reasonable conversation with the Dunsult (from their point of view and from ours).
Nonetheless, all of it happens because he went over some very specific distance threshold, which is not specified to us (unlike with Kalakiol) and which happens exactly after such climactic scenes as: him saving Serwa, cutting down the Canted Horn, and defeating Aurang.
To me such a contrived coincidence is extremely grating when it can be completely eschewed by a different reading of the events.
- We're told a couple times by Bakker in his Q&A that Kellhus' possession was 1. a gradual process and 2. got worse the closer he got to the Ark.
I have no desire to dispute this, because it simply works. But the moment of possession is clearly outlined in the narrative by Kellhus's head bursting into flames (just like the moment Kalakiol gets freedom is outlined). Before that he is compromised, but not to the point of being completely unreasonable (like going into the Golden Room without his Ordeal, which was strictly needed there if he didn't make a deal with Ajokli). He makes mistakes, but not obviously suicidal mistakes.
It hardly makes perfect sense. Why is it unreasonable to think they could have take the Mutilated absent a God? Serwa, despite being lesser, is still an amazing witch. Kellhus is likely the best ever, Kayutas is an amazing warrior, and the host of Schools are quite capable. The Mutilated had no more nukes, we see no more lazer weapons, they have no magic, and Aurang and Mek die. Seems like they certainly could have been their match.
Because he doesn't know they don't have more nukes (he specifically asks about this), has no idea what else was salvaged in the Ark, and the Dunsult has magic (they use sorcery to get Kelmomas into the Carapace). And also there is a huge host and prepared defenses even without all those things.
They are outmatched, I see logic in Serwa's assessment. The only thing in contention is whether Kellhus agrees, but his opinion on the matter is not presented and he evidently had no desire to reassure Serwa.
I think you're viewing the possession as a switch flipping. One moment Kellhus, the next Ajokli
I'm not sure what makes you think so. Could you elaborate?
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I don't like this idea at all because the Ordeal was extremely close to the Horns. So basically it comes to exact measures, in fiction. A mile away Kellhus is compromised but still can more or less think straight, half a mile away he is extremely compromised, flying about the Upright Horn (like, a couple of hundred feet away from the Ark?) in a climactic battle with Aurang he loses it and goes to his death. If his plan was to get the Ordeal into the Golden Room with him, then that doesn't work, so what's left is only Ajokli's plan, which Kellhus isn't aware of in accordance with the constraints of the "Kellhus doesn’t know about Ajokli" theory. So going into the Room alone is him committing suicide and not noticing it because of the divine influence. Yet he is able to cast Metagnostic Cants, use noticeably Dunyain terms, and hold a reasonable conversation with the Dunsult (from their point of view and from ours).
The problem is that we don't know why he precisely went in, but there are other rational considerations he might have been making (at least that he might have thought were rational). Scouting out the remaining members of the Consult, confirming there were Dunyain/who as left otherwise, expecting his sorcery to be enough, that sort of thing. Just because he's compromised doesn't mean he suddenly also loses the ability to cast sorcery or hold a conversation. Had Ajokli not possessed him, he very well may have been able to teleport out, defend himself, flee prior to the skinspies surronding him, etc.
Nonetheless, all of it happens because he went over some very specific distance threshold, which is not specified to us (unlike with Kalakiol) and which happens exactly after such climactic scenes as: him saving Serwa, cutting down the Canted Horn, and defeating Aurang.
To me such a contrived coincidence is extremely grating when it can be completely eschewed by a different reading of the events.
I don't see the issue, but you're acting as though the whole 'getting more possessed as he got closer' thing is an entirely arbitrary measure. Again, certainly, we don't know a lot about daemonic possession or the Daimos overall. But I don't see literally being inside the most severe torpos as a weird qualified for a god manifesting. I don't think the Kakaliol is exactly the same situation, but I think we can use it to extrapolate that being a foot away from or inside the Ark is what makes the difference.
I have no desire to dispute this, because it simply works. But the moment of possession is clearly outlined in the narrative by Kellhus's head bursting into flames (just like the moment Kalakiol gets freedom is outlined). Before that he is compromised, but not to the point of being completely unreasonable (like going into the Golden Room without his Ordeal, which was strictly necessary if he didn't make a deal with Ajokli). He makes mistakes, but not obviously suicidal mistakes.
I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. As I noted above, we don't know the precise reason Compromised Kellhus chose to go inside in this theory. But there are reasons that preclude it being a massive blunder on a suicidal level.
Because he doesn't know they don't have more nukes (he specifically asks about this), has no idea what else was salvaged in the Ark, and the Dunsult has magic (they use sorcery to get Kelmomas into the Carapace). And also there is a huge host and prepared defenses even without all those things.
They are outmatched, I see logic in Serwa's assessment. The only thing in contention is whether Kellhus agrees, but his opinion on the matter is not presented and he evidently had no desire to reassure Serwa
I admittedly forgot they used sorcery at that point. Though, it doesn't really note how many possess it or to what degree. I don't agree the Ordeal couldn't defeat the Consult without a god. Personally, I think Kellhus could have won, had he not been possessed. Wether Kellhus felt that way or not is a contention, but given the 'So soon?' line, it still seems to fall in line that they were to join him in challenge the Consult.
I'm not sure what makes you think so. Could you elaborate?
Again, we know the process was gradual. Kellhus was there in some capacity until Ajokli was fully manifested. Given he was able to use the Metagnosis outside while compromsied and inside while compromised, just makes sense that it was him doing so.
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Scouting out the remaining members of the Consult, confirming there were Dunyain/who as left otherwise, expecting his sorcery to be enough, that sort of thing.
Here we most certainly would have to disagree, because, seeing that he is stepping right into the center of his enemies' power without any kind of backup, I don't consider what you outlined above rational reasons, I consider it pure folly.
I don't see the issue, but you're acting as though the whole 'getting more possessed as he got closer' thing is an entirely arbitrary measure.
Being arbitrary is fine when important events are clearly shown. Here, I don't see all of them shown unlike in the situation when Kellhus expects Ajokli to back him up.
I admittedly forgot they used sorcery at that point. Though, it doesn't really note how many possess it or to what degree.
Since Kellhus was able to develop Metagnosis almost instantly, assuming at least that level of proficiency seems reasonable.
I don't agree the Ordeal couldn't defeat the Consult without a god. Personally, I think Kellhus could have won, had he not been possessed. Wether Kellhus felt that way or not is a contention, but given the 'So soon?' line, it still seems to fall in line that they were to join him in challenge the Consult.
I should say that I was more confident in the Great Ordeal before reading "The Unholy Consult". After carefully examining the Ordeal's feats in the battle of the Ark, I do not share your assessment. I think they would have been exhausted by constant fighting and eventually destroyed. The ease with which the No-God decimates them is only reinforcing this conclusion.
The "So soon" line I interpret as Kellhus obfuscating the Ajokli matter and so formulating a more mundane plan that appears sound and can easily be one of his contingencies. But he was prepared to proceed regardless, that's why he goes in. This is my reading of the events.
Again, we know the process was gradual. Kellhus was there in some capacity until Ajokli was fully manifested. Given he was able to use the Metagnosis outside while compromsied and inside while compromised, just makes sense that it was him doing so.
I feel that at some point the magnitude of his presumed oversights while still being in possession of his faculties enough to function starts to stretch my suspension of disbelief too thin. But seeing that we disagree on the repercussions of Kellhus's hypothetical going into the Golden Room really alone (without a pact with Ajokli), this point is moot.
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I do know this now that I thought about it. What happened in the GR was not Kellhus's plan. And, the Great Ordeal wasn't just a vehicle to deliver Ajokli to the Ark. And, I'm certain no pacts were made and if they're were, he wouldn't have even needed the GO. Bear with me.
If Kelllhus made a pact with Ajokli/Hell and got the decapitants as the mode in which Ajokli could manifest in the GR, his little taxi can you might say, there wouldn't have been a GO. He would have translocated himself, avoided all those battles, and caught the Consult unaware and went straight into the GR. He didn't need the greatest army in humanity to do that. Because when it comes down to it that's what he did. And, as pointed out above (sorry, I don't know who), it clearly wasn't the plan. Serwe fights the Dragon to force here way into the GR, because her father entered too early and that must not have been the plan. And, if that's what Kellhus would be done along, why would he waste that much of humanity? One man translocating would definitely be more covert than 100,000 humans crossing the land. No, it doesn't make any sense, imho.
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If Kelllhus made a pact with Ajokli/Hell and got the decapitants as the mode in which Ajokli could manifest in the GR, his little taxi can you might say, there wouldn't have been a GO.
I feel that in this regard the Ordeal is both a contingency and a convenience. The former is fairly obvious. In the case of the latter, let's say Kellhus deals with the Consult without the Ordeal. There is still the Ark that needs to be scrutinized (Kellhus can't be in many places at once), hosts that need to be exterminated, Erratics that need to be cleared out of the Ark, a dragon that needs to learn to respect women, and so on. Not to mention Kellhus needs to sleep, eat, and isn't a stranger to comfort.
Also, basically moving his base of operations (i.e. the Great Ordeal) closer and closer to Golgotterath allowed Kellhus to preserve his strength instead of exerting himself with continuous Translocations. He wasn't in his top form when he came for Esmenet at the end of TGO.
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He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.
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He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.
There is still cleaning up afterward. And the possibility of his stashes being compromised by many dangers of the North, while an army can react to those.
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He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.
This is what leads me to think there was some kind of "pact" made between the two. If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been? I'd argue that it was his knowledge that the topos must exist. He was walking into hell, in which Ajoklhus really is the "master"
I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins. It's been a blend, or at the very least a kind of rotation (like his assessment of the Kelmomas/Samarmas personality). Since at least Dagliash, if I remember Himself's words on the topic from somewhere.
Ajoklhus walked into the Golden Room fully expecting he was already master of the place.
edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.
That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.
But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.
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He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.
This is what leads me to think there was some kind of "pact" made between the two. If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been? I'd argue that it was his knowledge that the topos must exist. He was walking into hell, in which Ajoklhus really is the "master"
I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins. It's been a blend, or at the very least a kind of rotation (like his assessment of the Kelmomas/Samarmas personality). Since at least Dagliash, if I remember Himself's words on the topic from somewhere.
Ajoklhus walked into the Golden Room fully expecting he was already master of the place.
edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.
That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.
But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about mastering it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.
I've been afraid to pollute this killer conversation, but finally someone has posted something similar to my take on this ( no offense, JK ). When I first read it, it appeared to me he brought in divine power as a strategy, he was aware of his "possession". Cleric was aware of his own possession as well. I was afraid for Kellhus when he went in by himself, even though he dispatched Aurang so easily and the decapitant didn't appear to be enough backup - so was relieved when Ajokli seized him ( didn't really know that's how he showed up until I read Bakker's explanation, just thought they traded places when I first read it ) and the chorae was neutralized, etc. Ajokli seemed like he was "invited" to accompany him, but there was a cost to this arrangement, mainly to Kellhus's judgement ( again, didn't tied that up until I read Bakker's explanation, I was initially confused why he let Kel live, etc ). I do think Bakker expects too much of us to have understood all of that on our own, so the conversation/debate going on here is valid.
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This is what leads me to think there was some kind of "pact" made between the two. If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been? I'd argue that it was his knowledge that the topos must exist. He was walking into hell, in which Ajoklhus really is the "master"
I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins. It's been a blend, or at the very least a kind of rotation (like his assessment of the Kelmomas/Samarmas personality). Since at least Dagliash, if I remember Himself's words on the topic from somewhere.
Ajoklhus walked into the Golden Room fully expecting he was already master of the place.
edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.
But, he doesn't know that he is be I g taking slowly over. He is unaware, hence no pact. Frankly, I can see there being a pact and not being one. Why I lean towards there not be I g one, or that Kellhus would betray that pact, is because of the Great Ordeal.
As I said before, if there was a pact, he could of translocated up there and with Ajokli divine intervention take over the Consult. The Bashrag, the stance and all the rest all mean nothing.
But, why I really don't think there was a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, is because of what Ajokli says when he manifests. He usurped Kellhus, was going to use the DunSult as his goons to rule over a hell on Earth. This doesn't jive with Bakker's own statement that Kellhus goal was to destroy the Consult and save humanity. No, Kellhus was caught unaware.
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But, why I really don't think there was a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, is because of what Ajokli says when he manifests. He usurped Kellhus, was going to use the DunSult as his goons to rule over a hell on Earth. This doesn't jive with Bakker's own statement that Kellhus goal was to destroy the Consult and save humanity. No, Kellhus was caught unaware.
They do have different motivations, and they do both have a penchant for betrayal. Ajokli betraying Kellhus' trust is not proof that he didn't gain the trust, first. Kellhus was aware, even if unaware of Ajokli's true intent.
Thus his acceptance of the darkness that comes before him. I read that as the agreed upon access point for Ajokli-through-Kellhus. Thus why Kellhus no longer makes any attempt to master his darkness, but embraces it, instead. Literally embracing, in the sense of Kellhus' true DTCB vestigial passions (Esmenet), and in his refusal to conquer it. He accepts TDTCB because he actually has to, as the agreed upon route for Ajokli's aid.
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Put me on Team Kellhus made a pact with Ajokli (and others). It makes zero sense to me that that would be Ajokli making mention of it. Why would he make a pact w/the pit. He is the pit. The lord of hate does not make a pact w/his servants. I do not make a pact w/an ant that crosses my kitchen.
I think its fair to say that Kellhus is influenced but not yet fully possessed until the head of burning flame emerges and that its almost impossible to parse with precision the motivations for entering the GR at that time. Serwa certainly seems concerned at the timing while who cares what Kayu thinks (hes basically a worthless character, imo).
Its still TBD who tricked whom in the Kellhus vs Ajokli contest. We have no way of knowing until TNG appears in a few years. And as for Ajokli needing to be w/in X distance of the GR/topos to manifest that doesnt explain how he can then manifest as Cnauir, unless TNG is a whirlwind of topos, which i dont buy.
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But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.
I want to make note that I'm somewhat leaning towards the idea that Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli for his aid, that his plan was to have the Ordeal and his family aid him in the Golden Room, and perhaps that Ajokli was suppose to aid him somehow. But not by possessing him. I think we either need to assume he didn't tell his family this part or the aid from Ajokli wasn't mean to result in any sort of manifestation. I find it hard to reconcile the idea that he wouldn't either tell his plan to Serwa/Kayutas or at least let them know he planned on going in alone.
That tangent aside! I think two things stick out as possible reasons he'd acknowledge the growing darkness without knowing Ajokli was the cause.
- The idea that the growing Darkness/compromised spirit is harming his ability to analyze it. Given Bakker's comments on "He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted." If his soul itself was being influenced, it may well be he was unable to recognize the alterations in himself. I think the idea of how Cants of Compulsion work could be argued as a similar principle.
- The dude was busy, by accounts making other mistakes (not being aware Esmenet would free Kelmomas) because of it. He was ordering the numerous thousands of the Ordeal, watching for Skin-Spies, teleporting numerous times (I think he notes the process eventually tires him too, but I might be misremembering), and undergoing a possibly unknown spiritual siege compromising himself. I think he might have just been too over-focused on the prize to stop and self-analyze.
The main reason I'm stilling thinking Ajokli not showing as part of the plan relates to the Serwa/Kayutas scene and Bakker's comment. That they thought Kellhus was facing the Consult alone and needed their help. And that Kellhus 'failed to execute The Thousandfold Thought.' So whether or not Ajokli was suppose to help somehow, I still don't think going in like he did was part of the plan.
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Call it a pact, deal, relationship or what have you - if there's simply nothing objective ( conversation, teaming ) between Kellhus and Ajokli, then how did Ajokli possess him? Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos? I think the 2 of them went into the Ark together in some form or fashion and if not invited, then a nice coincidence Ajokli saved Kellhus's life by seizing him in that moment ( i.e. neutralizing the chorae wielding Consult ) - to me, this is clearly a protective move for Kellhus.
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Call it a pact, deal, relationship or what have you - if there's simply nothing objective ( conversation, teaming ) between Kellhus and Ajokli, then how did Ajokli possess him? Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos? I think the 2 of them went into the Ark together in some form or fashion and if not invited, then a nice coincidence Ajokli saved Kellhus's life by seizing him in that moment ( i.e. neutralizing the chorae wielding Consult ) - to me, this is clearly a protective move for Kellhus.
I mean, I'd say there is a fair difference between a pact/deal/teaming and a relationship/conversation. If we're to believe Ajokli was speaking to Kellhus as far back as The Holy War, it might be his use of an Inversion made him more susceptible to the possession in the first place. Not that I'm claiming there wasn't some sort of deal, as I noted above. Just that possession isn't confirmation of a deal.
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Well, Ajokli certainly didn't come out of no where. I think the head on the like scene, he is the most crocodillian of Sons. Wether pact was made or not, in sure there was agreements and such, because Kellhus is the Inverse Prophet.
I take that entry in the glossary as Kellhus figuring out a way to dupe Ajokli. Practicing. Seeing what and how to escape the deal or what have you.
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Well, I don't think we can discount that Kellhus might have known of his own demise.
He even intimates to Proyas: "The thing—the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win."
So, I don't think it is all together implausible to think that Kellhus prepared himself for some eventuality of failure, even if he was unaware of what that failure would be. I do think that Kellhus was purposely allowing Ajokli to work through him, plausibly he might have thought he could exercise some control, or perhaps not. I don't think that is the point though, the point was to deliver Ajokli to the Golden Room.
Bakker tells us that the Thousandfold Thought failed though. This is because it was predicated to win. But Kellhus already knew, as per the quote above, that the whole endeavor was doomed to fail. The question, of course, is not what Kellhus had planned (because the Golden Room was a singularity, a place which, past it, the rules are different and nothing can be inferred) but rather, what contingencies were he prepared for. His own death certainly seems like something he, at least, should have considered.
As such, it doesn't surprise me that Bakker would tell us that Kellhus is dead, but is not done.
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I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.
Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.
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I think there's the possibility of a pact between Kellhus and Ajokli, I'm just not one who truly thinks there was. I brought this up because I profgrape thinks there isn't a pact, why would the Ordeal be used to get Ajokli to the GR?
For me, it's more a question of what particular writing cues make the "deal/pact" interpretation seemingly generally-accepted.
On profgrape's line - as we're something of amicable foils on these subjects - I think he's referring to the fact that Ajokli does apparently share the similarity to the other Gods in that they have the advantage/disadvantage of their perspective of time. He looks across time and he maybe sees only one human that makes it to the place where the connection comes online.
I do think that the God in Celmomas' Dream is actually Gilgaol but MG's interpretation of it being Ajokli seems equally valid by the text and Bakker's extratextual comments.
Here's what I think and it goes back to "the living shall not haunt the dead". They (Gods) "pondered" Kellhus and he evidently talked to them about the NG via the Diamos. No deal need be struck. But, Ajokli could have seen Kellhus's power and used it as a vehicle to create a "hell on Earth". I'm spitballing here, so I'll have to think on it some more.
Right, so go further on with that thought - Ajokli is the missing piece regarding all of Kellhus' conditioned ground from Ishual to Golgotterath since he can look for the best pawn across all of time (or you can go MG with it all the way and suggest that Ajokli is responsible for the Dunyain at all ;)). Kellhus would seem to be Ajokli's one chance at gaining access to Earwa and accomplishing his "goal," whatever the noosphere here is digesting that to be.
Perhaps, he is actually depending on his Daughter and the Ordeal to gain the Upright Horn and assist him.
This just doesn't work for me. If he needed their help, he shouldn't have gone into the Golden Room alone. He had every opportunity not to do so.
Damn, you all have been hashing this out. It's great :).
That's true - perhaps, as others have suggested, Ajokli compromised his restraint, though I don't like that.
To be honest, as far is my reading goes, I think besting Aurang convinced Kellhus that he would meet Dunyain ("Fear not, Iswazi, we walk conditioned ground" (bp)). Kellhus thought he was going to be able take the Mutilated. Their combat comes down to the pure-Dunyain argument, regarding, as noted by profgrape and H, the (second) use of Cause in the novels and Kellhus thought he was going to convince them.
Thereafter though, as some readers have noted that they haven't liked Kellhus' almost inappropriate expression humour/mischievousness at crucial moments in TAE, but TGO/TUC especially, I think Ajokli starts owning more and more of Kellhus' actions/words (if not all ;)) and Ajokli truly knows he can toy with the Mutilated in the Golden Room.
It depends, for example, on who we attribute the line about striking deals with the Pit to. While I do think it's interesting to ponder Ajokli saying that (I didn't think that at all until you mentioned it), ultimately it seems far less likely to me than Kellhus making a pact with Ajokli to use a divine agency against the Consult as a countermeasure for Tekne and in general the unknowns of the Ark.
Maybe. It's worth teasing out for me - as I've said, I seem to rely on the evidence that Ajokli is different than the others gods, sometimes companion or foil, manifests differently, etc. Actually, I finished reading the Glossary recently and was reminded that Ajokli is Gierra's "faithless" husband (prostitute Goddess ;)).
The plan very much seemed to be going ahead of schedule.
+1
(I can't really buy that some couple of miles make the difference)
There has to be some manifest line? I personally think it must be the point Kakaliol is able to take Iyokus and when Kellhus crosses through the Threshold, that fancy Sorcerous-Tekne door.
[EDIT] Another important thing that comes to mind is Kellhus using sorcery before his head gets engulfed in flames, but not during that time. Do we think that a God, even possessing a mortal, would be able to use sorcery? At the moment of entering the Golden Room the possession would need to be almost complete, so there is basically no Kellhus left, it's Ajokli uttering Metagnostic Cants.
We similarly asked this question after TGO regarding Ciphrang-Malowebi. For my part, I was curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi would be limited to Malowebi's skill with the Iswazi (is that right?) or basically unlock Ciphrang-level Sorcerous understanding? (Also, holy fuck, it's mentioned in the Glossary that the Mbimayu have like a 120-something fetishes on them at all times in their sorcery-appropriate fashion wear?!)
I'm not sure where you are getting the assumptions that he was close enough previously. If anything, I would say we're shown and told that him getting close is precisely an important thing.
- We're told a couple times by Bakker in his Q&A that Kellhus' possession was 1. a gradual process and 2. got worse the closer he got to the Ark.
- Think on Kakaliol, the ciphrang we see a couple point of view entries on. It isn't until he's literally right next to the massive torpos of the Ark that he can slip his bindings to escape. He was right next to it, trapped. And only once nearly touching it.
So it certainly makes sense to me that Ajokli likely couldn't manifest as he did until they were in the golden room a bit.
+1
I have no desire to dispute this, because it simply works. But the moment of possession is clearly outlined in the narrative by Kellhus's head bursting into flames (just like the moment Kalakiol gets freedom is outlined).
This is muddied by the fact that once Malowebi starts looking through the Soggomant reflection at the happening of happenings, he periodically comments on the obfuscation of Kellhus' reflection and doesn't tie it to the other Decapitant for the reader until he looks at it - which is moments still before Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider.
I don't see the issue, but you're acting as though the whole 'getting more possessed as he got closer' thing is an entirely arbitrary measure. Again, certainly, we don't know a lot about daemonic possession or the Daimos overall. But I don't see literally being inside the most severe torpos as a weird qualified for a god manifesting. I don't think the Kakaliol is exactly the same situation, but I think we can use it to extrapolate that being a foot away from or inside the Ark is what makes the difference.
Also, Yatwer manifests physically in WLW only where a "great Lord died" (bp) and Bakker's since confirmed things like individuals accruing Damnation in life to become Ciphrang in death and the various sized shards of the God (fucking extratextually jacking Sanderson ;)).
I admittedly forgot they used sorcery at that point. Though, it doesn't really note how many possess it or to what degree.
Well, I think it's safe to say they didn't think they could take Kellhus with sorcery given that they had all those Skin-Spies on hand with Chorae tied to their palms ;).
Since Kellhus was able to develop Metagnosis almost instantly, assuming at least that level of proficiency seems reasonable.
Sure but Kellhus also head twenty years - a number of those ahead of the Mutilated.
I feel that in this regard the Ordeal is both a contingency and a convenience. The former is fairly obvious. In the case of the latter, let's say Kellhus deals with the Consult without the Ordeal. There is still the Ark that needs to be scrutinized (Kellhus can't be in many places at once), hosts that need to be exterminated, Erratics that need to be cleared out of the Ark, a dragon that needs to learn to respect women, and so on. Not to mention Kellhus needs to sleep, eat, and isn't a stranger to comfort.
Also, basically moving his base of operations (i.e. the Great Ordeal) closer and closer to Golgotterath allowed Kellhus to preserve his strength instead of exerting himself with continuous Translocations. He wasn't in his top form when he came for Esmenet at the end of TGO.
Lol, +1.
If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been?
It mirrors his journey in PON, except this time he doesn't have a phone call from the Mutilated (Moenghus the Elder) ahead of time - but as Kellhus and the Mutilated discuss, Kellhus suspected the possibility and the use of the Nuke started exposing their agency.
I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins.
It's possible that the Amiolas serves as a cipher. What does Oiranal say to Sorweel? Possession is best served by the unaware donning soul (bp).
edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.
That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.
I find it interesting to consider that Ajokli isn't necessarily master in the Hells.
But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.
Well, if we want to reconcile Bakker's extratextual comments with the text, Kellhus is unaware.
But as I mentioned upthread to profgrape, the dude is busy. If Kellhus had had the time to sit down and make it his Study, I'm sure he could have figured it out, though this would make him undesirable to Ajokli in the first place - hell, maybe Kellhus even did figure it out by the reading of the "contingencies" camp. But in text, especially with his extratextual comments, Bakker almost paints a naive picture of Kellhus. An earnest Kellhus who was just doing his darnedest, utilitarian effort to "save the World," as he saw it.
I've been afraid to pollute this killer conversation
Lol, stahhppp. Just dive in and engage. Express yourself ;).
Cleric was aware of his own possession as well.
Was he? It doesn't seem like he ever made any comment on what happened to him in Cil-Aujas.
I do think Bakker expects too much of us to have understood all of that on our own, so the conversation/debate going on here is valid.
+1
Why would he make a pact w/the pit. He is the pit. The lord of hate does not make a pact w/his servants. I do not make a pact w/an ant that crosses my kitchen.
Wb, Rots. Thought we'd lost you ;).
We just don't know that Ajokli being master of Hell is the case, though.
who cares what Kayu thinks (hes basically a worthless character, imo).
Aw. I liked Kayutas. Some of my favorite moments in the series are the early martial exploits by Kellhus and Cnaiur. Kayutas got a small moment like that when he takes out Grimmel (I think?) in the Council of the Believer-Kings in TUC but that's not enough. I'd like to see him take on a Skin-Spy in full Cartilage-Octopus mode.
Its still TBD who tricked whom in the Kellhus vs Ajokli contest. We have no way of knowing until TNG appears in a few years. And as for Ajokli needing to be w/in X distance of the GR/topos to manifest that doesnt explain how he can then manifest as Cnauir, unless TNG is a whirlwind of topos, which i dont buy.
Or Cnaiur is within the same arbitrary gradient threshold. The Horde parts for him a good deal as they previously did for Sibuwal.
Is the power that Ajokli can possess anyone he wants if they close in near/to a Topos?
Well, it seems to me that it's either a sufficiently Damned/Holy/Redeemed individual or Topoi or both ;)?
If we're to believe Ajokli was speaking to Kellhus as far back as The Holy War, it might be his use of an Inversion made him more susceptible to the possession in the first place. Not that I'm claiming there wasn't some sort of deal, as I noted above. Just that possession isn't confirmation of a deal.
+1
Whispering and whispering.
Oh, this reminds me of something I need to quote to the Ajokli's Motivation thread - Kellhus recalls a moment with the Vision/Voice in TGO where (assumptively) Ajokli, appearing as Kellhus (with no haloes), tells him that he wars with the God and that "burning the fields" is how to awaken him. Crucial, as this both makes Ajokli an enemy of the Gods (who feed on the granary) and of the God itself, for whatever inscrutable Ajokli reasons ;).
Well, I don't think we can discount that Kellhus might have known of his own demise.
He even intimates to Proyas: "The thing—the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win."
So, I don't think it is all together implausible to think that Kellhus prepared himself for some eventuality of failure, even if he was unaware of what that failure would be. I do think that Kellhus was purposely allowing Ajokli to work through him, plausibly he might have thought he could exercise some control, or perhaps not. I don't think that is the point though, the point was to deliver Ajokli to the Golden Room.
Bakker tells us that the Thousandfold Thought failed though. This is because it was predicated to win. But Kellhus already knew, as per the quote above, that the whole endeavor was doomed to fail. The question, of course, is not what Kellhus had planned (because the Golden Room was a singularity, a place which, past it, the rules are different and nothing can be inferred) but rather, what contingencies were he prepared for. His own death certainly seems like something he, at least, should have considered.
As such, it doesn't surprise me that Bakker would tell us that Kellhus is dead, but is not done.
See, profgrape, H and others are writing your thread for you ;).
I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.
+1
I can even somewhat get the Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe vantage but I don't get how the agency and events of that Block-Universe can then change the very shape and perspective of those Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe. Bakker did say in the Q&A here that even he gets headaches thinking this shit through ;).
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I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.
Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.
I'm nearing the end of my re-read and will post some thoughts on a few days, but this section is one of the points I wanted people's opinion on. I read this conversation numerous times, but there seems to be a logical gap in what Kellhus is saying to Proyas. Bakker's answer is typically unhelpful. YES he said that to Proyas. What does it mean, mate?
Anyway, I'll go into more detail once I've gathered my thoughts.
But on the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.
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I really hate the 'Inchoroi must win' line. Maybe it just has to do with the idea of how eternity works in the Outside. Further, Bakker's answer on the topic, was far too vague.
1. Why did Kellhus say to Proyas that the Inchoroi must win? Was he arguing from the perspective of the Consult?
1) Is that what he says?
I feel like there has to be some understanding of the text I'm not able to grasp. Either that his comments are somehow more in regards to specifically the Gods in relation to The Ark. I've even vaguely considered what he says may have been influenced by Ajokli at that point or some differing metaphysical understanding, given that he didn't even know the No-God was necessary before the Golden Room. Or perhaps that The Ark may lay outside Eternity in some other manner. I'm not sure. Given that Ajokli literally stood in The Ark, it seems weird to consider him still blind to it. As well that he seemed capable of perceiving the Skin Spies.
Anyway, on the specific thought of contingency - maybe. But I don't think Kellhus thought the entire endeavor would fail specifically. He makes note that the eventuality of human extinction may take place ages in the future. Even had Kellhus managed to slay The Consult, the possibility of others taking up their work would remain unless he could utterly destroy The Ark. And given the only thing we've seen damage it is a lazer weapon he didn't know about, that seems a nearly impossible prospect.
I'm nearing the end of my re-read and will post some thoughts on a few days, but this section is one of the points I wanted people's opinion on. I read this conversation numerous times, but there seems to be a logical gap in what Kellhus is saying to Proyas. Bakker's answer is typically unhelpful. YES he said that to Proyas. What does it mean, mate?
Anyway, I'll go into more detail once I've gathered my thoughts.
But on the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.
I think the number was in relation to a prophecy about the end of the world. That said, Kellhus knows they are trying to wipe out humanity to Shut the World - he makes that clear both talking to Proyas and The Mutilated. However, he just makes it clear he wasn't aware they needed The No-God.
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The number definitely comes from the Inchoroi... I'm fairly sure Wutteat referred to the number. Since coincidence is unlikely, the prophecy must have been derived from there. Kellhus would know of the prophecy, and from there it's completely reasonable to think he could have devised its origins. There is very little about the Consult that surprised him in the Golden Room.
Anyway, he would definitely have worked out that the NG was needed, because otherwise why would they bother? He just didn't know *why* the NG was needed.
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The number definitely comes from the Inchoroi... I'm fairly sure Wutteat referred to the number. Since coincidence is unlikely, the prophecy must have been derived from there. Kellhus would know of the prophecy, and from there it's completely reasonable to think he could have devised its origins. There is very little about the Consult that surprised him in the Golden Room.
Anyway, he would definitely have worked out that the NG was needed, because otherwise why would they bother? He just didn't know *why* the NG was needed.
Why should we have any reason to believe he worked out The No-God was needed? He says, in a way, 'why not just use nukes'. He's presenting alternatives, why use The No-God at all. If he's unsure why use it at all, intuitively the line of thought is that he thought it unnecessary.
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Come on, this is Kellhus. You don't think he wondered *why* sometime in the past 20 years of studying the Apocalypse, mastering metaphysics, and interrogating Skin Spies? And if we on the forum can get close to guessing from a couple of quotes, he's going to be stumped?
I mean, even Cnaiur found out about the IF as soon as TTT (even if he didn't know what it was). Are people still underestimating Kellhus?
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Come on, this is Kellhus. You don't think he wondered *why* sometime in the past 20 years of studying the Apocalypse, mastering metaphysics, and interrogating Skin Spies? And if we on the forum can get close to guessing from a couple of quotes, he's going to be stumped?
I mean, even Cnaiur found out about the IF as soon as TTT (even if he didn't know what it was). Are people still underestimating Kellhus?
I'm sure he wondered. But other alternatives exist. The first, and a likely one, being that The No-God is an extremely effective tool. Seeing as it allows the coordinated control of Scranc/Bashrag/Wracu, brings forth a massive whirlwind, and prevents the birth of more humans.
I'm not underestimating Kellhus. I'm drawing directly from his conversation where he asks why The Consult bothers to go to all the trouble to restart The No-God if they had nukes. And that nowhere else in the text does Kellhus imply he was aware The No-God was necessary.
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Are people still underestimating Kellhus?
More like the other way around if you ask me. The point of the Golden Room sequence is that Kellhus, despite his miraculous powers, is still every bit as vulnerable to the atemporal control of a Divine agency.
Also, great to see the "the Inchoroi must win" thing brought up again :D. It's been bothering for so long. I think Bakker was getting tired when he answered my question. His first couple of answers seem way more detailed, and then it just got more vague and cryptic as time passed :D.
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To be honest, as far is my reading goes, I think besting Aurang convinced Kellhus that he would meet Dunyain ("Fear not, Iswazi, we walk conditioned ground" (bp)). Kellhus thought he was going to be able take the Mutilated. Their combat comes down to the pure-Dunyain argument, regarding, as noted by profgrape and H, the (second) use of Cause in the novels and Kellhus thought he was going to convince them.
He didn't even try to convince them, the way I read it. He was completely taken by his own purpose, whatever that was. We know that it stems from the Gnosis, though, because he specifically cites it as his main influence, as opposed to Tekne in the case of the Mutilated.
But the fact that Kellhus was so confident going in makes me think he expected to use divine powers as his trump card.
Maybe. It's worth teasing out for me - as I've said, I seem to rely on the evidence that Ajokli is different than the others gods, sometimes companion or foil, manifests differently, etc.
I feel here we simply don't have enough information to determine the truth. Right now, it can easily go a variety of ways.
We similarly asked this question after TGO regarding Ciphrang-Malowebi. For my part, I was curious as to whether or not Ciphrang-Malowebi would be limited to Malowebi's skill with the Iswazi (is that right?) or basically unlock Ciphrang-level Sorcerous understanding? (Also, holy fuck, it's mentioned in the Glossary that the Mbimayu have like a 120-something fetishes on them at all times in their sorcery-appropriate fashion wear?!)
I'm completely unsure about how Ciphrang-Malowebi would work.
This is muddied by the fact that once Malowebi starts looking through the Soggomant reflection at the happening of happenings, he periodically comments on the obfuscation of Kellhus' reflection and doesn't tie it to the other Decapitant for the reader until he looks at it - which is moments still before Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider.
On the contrary, I feel it only brings clarity. Kellhus is channeling divine power even before he gets possessed, as is evidenced by him causing an earthquake. This is what the distortion Malowebi sees indicates. But at this point it's still Kellhus, though obviously using the divine. I consider this being part of his plan.
Then Kellhus's head bursts into flames, which indicates the moment when Kellhus stops being Kellhus and becomes Ajokli. That was not part of the plan, as confirmed by Bakker.
Sure but Kellhus also head twenty years - a number of those ahead of the Mutilated.
He was also very busy creating an empire and fighting a civil war. I don't think we can safely assume that he was able to put more effort into mastering sorcery that the Dunsult.
I can even somewhat get the Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe vantage but I don't get how the agency and events of that Block-Universe can then change the very shape and perspective of those Gods looking-backwards across the Block-Universe. Bakker did say in the Q&A here that even he gets headaches thinking this shit through ;).
I love this "temporal-atemporal" aspect of the series! It's very fresh and completely not for show, being acutely plot-relevant. This is what I read fantasy for.
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But on the comment that he didn't know the NG was necessary - there's a chapter heading quote in TWLW that mentions the 144k, so SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have been aware of what the Inchoroi were trying to do. By extension, Kellhus (Lore Master extraordinaire) will also have been aware.
Ganus the Blind. Most curious.
I mean, even Cnaiur found out about the IF as soon as TTT (even if he didn't know what it was). Are people still underestimating Kellhus?
Overestimating, underestimating. I've heard it both ways ;).
I'm not underestimating Kellhus. I'm drawing directly from his conversation where he asks why The Consult bothers to go to all the trouble to restart The No-God if they had nukes.
Don't the Mutilated suggest that the Tekne-Nukes do too much damage to the World for their use - even if they had more? Safeguarding the World itself implies some interesting possibilities.
Also, great to see the "the Inchoroi must win" thing brought up again :D. It's been bothering for so long. I think Bakker was getting tired when he answered my question. His first couple of answers seem way more detailed, and then it just got more vague and cryptic as time passed :D.
profgrape has been privately after me about that line for time now.
And nah, tleilaxu, our entire Q&A thread was almost ruined by Bakker's "losing three hours worth of answering posts (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36103#msg36103)," which he then rewrote over the course of a few days before the AMA. Nothing on you. I'm sure he was just subsequently frustrated.
He didn't even try to convince them, the way I read it. He was completely taken by his own purpose, whatever that was. We know that it stems from the Gnosis, though, because he specifically cites it as his main influence, as opposed to Tekne in the case of the Mutilated.
But the fact that Kellhus was so confident going in makes me think he expected to use divine powers as his trump card.
Right - in fact, doesn't he reference the Gnosis and the Daimos? I'd have to check.
I don't think Kellhus was depending on Ajokli - I still think that was a true suckering.
I feel here we simply don't have enough information to determine the truth. Right now, it can easily go a variety of ways.
Indeed :).
On the contrary, I feel it only brings clarity. Kellhus is channeling divine power even before he gets possessed, as is evidenced by him causing an earthquake. This is what the distortion Malowebi sees indicates. But at this point it's still Kellhus, though obviously using the divine. I consider this being part of his plan.
Then Kellhus's head bursts into flames, which indicates the moment when Kellhus stops being Kellhus and becomes Ajokli. That was not part of the plan, as confirmed by Bakker.
You have that wrong, friend. Kellhus causes an "earthquake" cutting down the Canted Horn. Ajokli stomps after Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider God-Mode, as far as I recall.
He was also very busy creating an empire and fighting a civil war. I don't think we can safely assume that he was able to put more effort into mastering sorcery that the Dunsult.
Kellhus definitely has a head-start on the Mutilated, either way.
I love this "temporal-atemporal" aspect of the series! It's very fresh and completely not for show, being acutely plot-relevant. This is what I read fantasy for.
Haha, well met, SmilerLoki. Other fantasy fans are not as pleased with Bakker's narrative it seems ;).
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Don't the Mutilated suggest that the Tekne-Nukes do too much damage to the World for their use - even if they had more? Safeguarding the World itself implies some interesting possibilities.
This is where they bring up "the Art of human extinction, not the fact" matter. I should note that I didn't interpret it as them being ecologically conscious.
Right - in fact, doesn't he reference the Gnosis and the Daimos? I'd have to check.
He indeed does:
“Where you immersed yourself in the Tekne, took up the generational toil of recovering what the Inchoroi have lost, I mastered the Daimos, plundered the Houses of the Dead.”
You have that wrong, friend. Kellhus causes an "earthquake" cutting down the Canted Horn. Ajokli stomps after Kellhus' head goes full Ghost Rider God-Mode, as far as I recall.
I attribute the stomp to Kellhus, but being already on the verge of full possession and falling into it shortly after. Here is how it looked like:
“And yet you forget,” Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied, grinning.
His reflection raised a knee, stamped a sandalled heel down ...
A cataclysmic thump, mazing the obsidian polish with concentric fractures, resounding through the mountainous bones of the structure, where it reverberated and returned to rock them all ...
Without uttering a word of sorcery.
Following that he talks about the Gnosis and the Daimos (the quote before this one) and only after that goes full Ghost Rider.
Haha, well met, SmilerLoki. Other fantasy fans are not as pleased with Bakker's narrative it seems ;).
This is really unfortunate and probably explains a suspicious lack of innovation in the genre.
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I will your respect your opinion, but in my estimation, Kellhus is u doubtedly the greatest sorcerer and mind that ever graced Earwa, point blank. Even without the GR, he dispatched Aurang like he was nothing, fed him to Scranc.
I think that's the whole purpose of Kellhus. This great mind who plans out every contingency and in the end, missed one and it cost him. The Great Gandalf that does. It sucks, but, I thought it was did in a satisfying way and leaves room for more to come.
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I prefer to see Kellhus's intellect as preternatural, not supernatural. In this sense, I feel there is a fairly significant amount of things he didn't see (many of those because he wasn't looking in their direction at all) and didn't plan for. Though it's undeniable that he saw farther than most.
It's like this (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl288ve/):
To ask Mimara's question of Achamian, why assume Kellhus is in control of everything? The text is littered with indications that he wasn't.
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That doesn't mean he still wasn't the greatest intellect to walk Earwa, it just means he makes mistakes like anyone else.
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That doesn't mean he still wasn't the greatest intellect to walk Earwa, it just means he makes mistakes like anyone else.
No, I agree, of those we can properly assess he was certainly the brightest (except maybe the Survivor, who didn't do much for the plot). It's that I can't in good faith make a world-encompassing generalization here, because it includes complete unknowns.
There is also, for example, a possibility of someone being insignificantly inferior to Kellhus for all narrative means and purposes. It's a way to continue the Dunsult line, which would be interesting to me.
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If the Ajokli possession was unwelcome ( I'm still in the camp he was "brought" in with him ), I wonder if Bakker would at least let us know if the Ajokli possession was made possible as a by product/cost of Kellhus's using the Daimos or the Ark was a Topos? Both, maybe a perfect storm.
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If the Ajokli possession was unwelcome ( I'm still in the camp he was "brought" in with him ), I wonder if Bakker would at least let us know if the Ajokli possession was made possible as a by product/cost of Kellhus's using the Daimos or the Ark was a Topos? Both, maybe a perfect storm.
Well the Ciphrang are basically a shortcut to Hell the way I see it. That's why it's not Malowebi's head there, but that of a Ciphrang. It, along with the Topos that is the Ark, gave Ajokli a very easy entry point. A backdoor, so to say.
Now. I could be wrong and Kellhus expected it to go down as such, I just didn't read it that way.
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No, I agree, of those we can properly assess he was certainly the brightest (except maybe the Survivor, who didn't do much for the plot). It's that I can't in good faith make a world-encompassing generalization here, because it includes complete unknowns.
But the text offers proof that Kellhus is indeed heads and above any intellect to ever set foot in Earwa. The Warrior Prophet
Within days the Prince of Atrithau was improvising new axioms, discovering theorems and formulae that Achamian had never imagined possible, let alone encountered in the classic texts. Kellhus even proved to him—proved!—that the logic of Ajencis as laid out in The Syllogistics was preceded by a more basic logic, one which used relations between entire sentences rather than subjects and predicates. Two thousand years of comprehension and insight overturned by the strokes of a stick across dust! “How?” he’d cried. “How?” Kellhus shrugged. “This is simply what I see.”
SmilerLoki, we've encountered this a couple times when discussing theories and such. Your unwillingness to give in, because of "what if's". I mean we can make up what ifs on anything. But, unfortunately, all we have is the text to go by. And, the text says Kellhus is smarter than any man who's stepped foot on Earwa.
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SmilerLoki, we've encountered this a couple times when discussing theories and such. Your unwillingness to give in, because of "what if's". I mean we can make up what ifs on anything. But, unfortunately, all we have is the text to go by. And, the text says Kellhus is smarter than any man who's stepped foot on Earwa.
I don't see anything to give in to, and don't really see where the notion that I somehow should comes from.
We don't see Kellhus interact that much with other Dunyain (and he most certainly doesn't outmatch the Dunsult), and we have their intellectual superiority to the world-born established not even strictly plot-wise, but more setting-wise. If the text is to go by factually and not declaratively, then that superiority is unproven to me, but I accept it as the authorial intention and thus don't dispute it (maybe even in cases where it should actually be disputed). The fact that we don't see Kellhus interact with his brethren enough doesn't mean that it's not there in the plot or setting; it exists "off-screen" and is being alluded to enough times. It is there. There is no Kellhus by his lonesome, there is a race called "the Dunyain" that Kellhus belongs to: his advantages come from the traits attributed by the narrative to that race. Even being a prodigy among them doesn't mean Kellhus is that much smarter. I feel the word "prodigy" is understood strangely by many people. Being faster to learn and initially better at something doesn't mean being always better at everything.
What interests me is where Kellhus stands among other Dunyain and how big the gap is, if there is any. Those things principally exist in the narrative, what we don't know is their exact values.
I do not see how the text says that Kellhus is smarter than everyone who ever walked Earwa. I see how the intention behind the text shows his superiority to the world-born (I put the execution aside in that matter). It's there, I agree. His superiority to other Dunyain is not shown and not exhaustively stated. I don't know how exactly Bakker understands the word "prodigy", but I assume a realistic outlook, which demands that no people surpass their closest rivals by orders of magnitude, the difference is generally in one or two to fractions of a percent (which is negligible in many respects).
The other way to understand the word "prodigy" is fantastic, and in that case someone is actually smarter by orders of magnitude, Reed Richards or Tony Stark in comic books level. It can be, but the Second Apocalypse strikes me as far more realistic than that, and so I stand by my assessment until exhaustively proven otherwise.
I should also note that I feel you argue exactly for the latter (please correct me if I'm wrong!) and it clashes with how I generally perceive the series. Furthermore, I think you're jumping to overly simplistic conclusions and readings of the text on many occasions, but I also accept the possibility of being completely in the wrong myself. I don't actually argue with you, I use our discussions as means to articulate things to myself. It's unlikely I can exhaustively prove your fundamental points wrong with the information available right now, therefore I don't see why would you agree with me, which means there is no purpose in arguing. But I see no harm in presenting a different opinion for people to read.
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I gave you a quote that said Kellhus upended all the great philosophers and mathematicians by scribbling in the dirt. Banker has said Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dunyain. I am going by the text. You seem to not to like to do that. But rather, make up thoughts in your head and expand on them. Sorry, that's can fiction to me.
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Banker, fan fiction
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Bakker, Bakker, Bakker!!!!
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I gave you a quote that said Kellhus upended all the great philosophers and mathematicians by scribbling in the dirt.
World-born philosophers and mathematicians. I don't see your point, unless you somehow equal world-born to the Dunyain, which is just factually wrong.
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World-born philosophers and mathematicians. I don't see your point, unless you somehow equal world-born to the Dunyain, which is just factually wrong.
I don't get your point. The premise was that Kellhus was the smartest man on Earwa. Period. Its backed up by that quote. I don't care if he's Dunyain or Conryinian, he is the smartest man on that planet. Hell, the Quya can't even translocate. You keep dividing your argument just instead of say I g your wrong Smilerloki. Its ok to be humble and admit when your wrong. I do it all the time.
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I don't get your point. The premise was that Kellhus was the smartest man on Earwa. Period. Its backed up by that quote. I don't care if he's Dunyain or Conryinian, he is the smartest man on that planet. Hell, the Quya can't even translocate. You keep dividing your argument just instead of say I g your wrong Smilerloki. Its ok to be humble and admit when your wrong. I do it all the time.
The problem is, your argument lumps together the Dunyain and the world-born, and those are completely different things for the sake of our discussion.
Let's try that step by step for more clarity, shall we?
Is there a difference in intellectual abilities between the world-born and the Dunyain?
[EDIT] I also should note that I've never agreed with the way you initially formulated your argument and it's exactly what I feel we see differently. In other words, I dispute your choice of terminology. Basically, where you say "everyone", I say "the world-born" (that includes Nonmen, and even Aurax and Aurang, though they aren't born in this world), as opposed to "the Dunyain".
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Aurax and Aurang are world-born? The only difference is Kellhus grew up secluded, that's why he uses the phrase world born. They are still men. With the right womb, produce human babies. They are humans themselves. They've just been trained their whole lives. Yes. All Dunyain are smarter than world born. But they have "defectivess". And, Baller has made it clear that Moe, Kellhus and the Survivor are heads above the rest of the Dunyain. Its a mute argument, no matter how you want phrase it.
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Aurax and Aurang are world-born?
For the purpose of our discussion about Kellhus's intellectual ability they are, in my opinion, on the same level as the world-born, so I roughly lumped them in the same category. I also, obviously, make a rough statement when I collate all world-born with the ones Kellhus interacts with. But since those are many different people (from Achamian to Cnaiur to Esmenet) representing many social statures and depths of intellect and education, I feel that it's 99,9% certain that if Kellhus outshines them, he outshines all the other world-born. And also my narrative spider-sense isn't tingling for that 0,01% outlier, I think it's Bakker's intent to show that Kellhus is superior to all world-born.
The only difference is Kellhus grew up secluded, that's why he uses the phrase world born. They are still men.
This is another point on which I disagree. I feel that the Dunyain's intellectual abilities (in general, and not only in Kellhus's case) are so far superior to those of the world-born that the Dunyain should be put in a separate category when intellect is discussed. This is evidenced by their different brain structure (Koringhus references it in TGO when he compares it to that of Sranc), intellects of Kellhus's children and Maithanet, and the fact that the Mutilated were able to subsume the Consult, which consisted of the brightest and most knowledgeable minds of three races.
With the right womb, produce human babies.
Doesn't it seem strange to you that Men generally don't need their wives to have "the right womb" and the Dunyain do?
Also I can't readily agree on the humanity of those babies. Though this shouldn't be taken as disagreement, too.
And, Baller has made it clear that Moe, Kellhus and the Survivor are heads above the rest of the Dunyain.
You see, I don't remember it like this at all. My understanding of his words is, they are "stronger" than the other Dunyain (it's more clear with Kellhus and less clear with his father and the Survivor, the way I recall it), but I don't interpret this "stronger" the way you do. It's like in real life between professionals in a given field, the difference, when it can be calculated, is 1-2% or even fractions of a percent, and it's negligible to any outsider, whose results would fall many times shorter.
This is why I don't see myself being wrong. We differ in our understanding of terminology and reading of the text. It's actually very curious to me, haven't you seen the possibility of such form of disagreement from the start?
[EDIT] But all of this, in retrospect, makes me understand better why you propose that Kellhus could have outmatched the Dunsult by himself. You see the Anasurimbor line and him specifically as very special, while I attribute almost all of his strengths (being arbitrary, 95-97%) to his Dunyain heritage and training.
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No, there is a quote from Bakker saying that they are prodigies among the Dunyain. They are the best of the best.
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No, there is a quote from Bakker saying that they are prodigies among the Dunyain. They are the best of the best.
As I stated earlier, we probably understand the word "prodigy" very differently.
I should also add that even prodigies are not the best of the best in everything, this is completely unrealistic. Everyone has their own fields of expertise and weak sides.
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As I stated earlier, we probably understand the word "prodigy" very differently.
I should also add that even prodigies are not the best of the best in everything, this is completely unrealistic. Everyone has their own fields of expertise and weak sides.
Definition- prodigy
a person, especially a young one, endowed with exceptional qualities or abilities.
Its simple, thats the definition, in this case not so much a child but a person. If i remember correctly and id live ro find Bakker's quote, he makes it clear that the Anansurimbor line is heads abobe the rest of the Dunyain.
And, i dont get why you want ro seperate the Dunayain, but not the Nonmen and Inchoroi from Man.... It makes little to no sense. Besides, to me, im not differentiating between any of the above. Point blank, Kellhus was the most powerful, knowledgeable "person" to set foot on Earwa. You make a distinction between the Dunyain and the rest of Earwa, but not Nonmen and Men? It stated multiple times that a Quya mage is practically unbeatable by a Man. The translocation cant and others with two 3 utterals, was spoken by Akka as a thing of legend. Kellhus, basically reinvebted the wheel when it came to sorcery. I dont understand your argument here, other than the fact that you want to argue something.
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Its simple, thats the definition, in this case not so much a child but a person.
Sure, but the fact is, it's not that rare. It's about top 0,2-0,3% of every trade (more likely 0,2 than 0,3). It's also very arbitrary (something unique to an outsider is not that unique to a professional, so the term becomes a bit overused). Take chess, for example. There are, even now, prodigious chess players. They achieve consistent top results, but they lose like everyone else and don't win every competition they enter. There is no unique unbeatable person in any field, it's not how it works. I really can't see Kellhus this way.
But I understand if you want to, it's used in fiction, certainly.
If i remember correctly and id live ro find Bakker's quote, he makes it clear that the Anansurimbor line is heads abobe the rest of the Dunyain.
We should just ask him about it again at some point. I'm in no hurry, though.
And, i dont get why you want ro seperate the Dunayain, but not the Nonmen and Inchoroi from Man....
This, at least, I can answer in detail.
I set the Dunyain apart from every other race in Earwa because of how easy they outshine everyone. The Mutilated somehow grasped the nature of the Inchoroi and their Ark and subsumed the Consult with all of its Nonmen while being taken prisoner and tortured, not to mention they gained operational understanding of the Tekne devices the Inchoroi themselves weren't able to restore. Since I see Kellhus as a top-notch Dunyain, but still a Dunyain, his mastery of the Metagnosis that leaves every Quya far behind is another testament to the abilities of the Dunyain. If that's not enough, there is also the case of Serwa. That's two fields the Dunyain have mastered at the level superseding that of the founders of those fields.
Speaking of the difference between Men and Nonmen, it isn't that high in my eyes. Men made the No-God a reality. The cunning of Men broke the Barricades. Titigra was hailed as the greatest sorcerer to ever draw breath, and he was a Son of Men (at the time when their sorcerous mastery could've been compared to that of their teachers). Maybe Nonmen do surpass Men in general, but when we talk great minds, the difference doesn't really seem to be there. It's the same with the Inchoroi. They were more or less evenly matched with Nonmen, and couldn't finish their own designs to shut the world until Men came along. Aurang and Aurax were cowered by Kellhus and the Mutilated respectively, the same way the Dunyain cower everyone they come across, be it Men or Nonmen.
Then there is that titbit from Koringhus about the Dunyain having unique brain structure. He even compares it to that of an artificially created weapon race. It's compounded by the fact that the Dunyain evolved almost to the point of being incompatible with Men (as you mentioned, they need "the right womb", and it doesn't seem to be an easy thing to find as the Glossary entry "Zikas" suggests). Furthermore, the Whale Mothers pretty much look like they belong to another species altogether.
All of this tells me that they are actually very different, and they bred themselves specifically for intellect, which is what we're discussing. They are also preternaturally strong. Proyas even mentions when he is strung up and Kellhus pulls him up that it's Kellhus's strength that should've first alerted him to the inhuman nature of his prophet. So far, the superiority of the Dunyain to all other races is demonstrated consistently. They are orders of magnitude above everybody else, considering how easy they dominate people.
I actually can accept that, since it took some thousands of years of dedicated breeding and also is reinforced by Earwan metaphysics (the world of the Second Apocalypse is meaningful, and so zealously striving for their goal changed the Dunyain in a way impossible in our world).
Basically, where you see Kellhus and more generally the Anasurimbor line as special, I see the Dunyain as special. Though the Anasurimbor line also has significance, I presume.
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Then there is that titbit from Koringhus about the Dunyain having unique brain structure. He even compares it to that of an artificially created weapon race. It's compounded by the fact that the Dunyain evolved almost to the point of being incompatible with Men (as you mentioned, they need "the right womb", and it doesn't seem to be an easy thing to find as the Glossary entry "Zikas" suggests). Furthermore, the Whale Mothers pretty much look like they belong to another species altogether.
Incorrect. He says that the found where the soul lies in the brain. And, that the Sranc are without it. Deducing that that is where the soul lies. If you need me to, ill quote the passage.
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Incorrect. He says that the found where the soul lies in the brain. And, that the Sranc are without it. Deducing that that is where the soul lies. If you need me to, ill quote the passage.
As far as I remember, he says that too, yes.
But I was talking about this passage:
After the Brethren had thrown back the Shriekers’ first assault, they had pried opened the creature’s skulls. They had been careful to take captives, both for the purposes of interrogation and study. The Neuropuncturists quickly realized the Shriekers weren’t natural. Like the Dûnyain, their neuroanatomy bore all the hallmarks of artifice, with various lobes swollen at the expense of others, the myriad articulations of Cause branching into configurations alien to all other earthly beasts. Structures that triggered anguish in everything from lizards to wolves elicited lust in the Shriekers. They possessed no compassion, no remorse or shame or communal ambition …
Again, like the Dûnyain.
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I'll have to go back through this more later, but a few quick things.
That quote in TGO of their brains being physically similar (in that they are un-natural) is awesome. Can't say I remember it at all.
The Dunyain are basically the natural evolution side of the tekne weapon races, and yeah, they're definitely over powered in all things by at least one order of magnitude.
The Anasurimbor line is mentioned in text, at least in the case of Koringhus, to be prodigal - to me meaning superior in many ways to the rest of the exception Dunyain. There is also, sorry no quote from me either but its floating around [sigh], mentions from Bakker that Kellhus was also a prodigy. From this, people (me included) tend to extrapolate backwards because we have so few data points to go from, and assume that the rest of the Anasurimbor line tends towards prodigal status.
Probably worth noting, but maybe not here, the Dunyain as described to us are similar to autistic savants in their intellectual capacity and gaps in social awareness. Basically a breeding program that selected for autism, with training to overcome the anxieties and other social issues (legion within) associated with it. This is very amusing to me.
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I'll have to go back through this more later, but a few quick things.
That quote in TGO of their brains being physically similar (in that they are un-natural) is awesome. Can't say I remember it at all.
The Dunyain are basically the natural evolution side of the tekne weapon races, and yeah, they're definitely over powered in all things by at least one order of magnitude.
The Anasurimbor line is mentioned in text, at least in the case of Koringhus, to be prodigal - to me meaning superior in many ways to the rest of the exception Dunyain. There is also, sorry no quote from me either but its floating around [sigh], mentions from Bakker that Kellhus was also a prodigy. From this, people (me included) tend to extrapolate backwards because we have so few data points to go from, and assume that the rest of the Anasurimbor line tends towards prodigal status.
When Koringhus recalls saving his son he says something about picking the one that "smelled most like Anasûrimbor, the most promising of the twelve germs".
Probably worth noting, but maybe not here, the Dunyain as described to us are similar to autistic savants in their intellectual capacity and gaps in social awareness. Basically a breeding program that selected for autism, with training to overcome the anxieties and other social issues (legion within) associated with it. This is very amusing to me.
More like the other way around if you ask me, breeding for restrained and self-aware psychopaths.
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@SmilerLoki, i stand corrected! ;)
I still sont see whybit would matter if Dunyain are closer to Tekne weapons race. Kellhus dispatchex Aurang with ease and Sacarreess couldnt touch Aurang. So it stands that Kellhus is the greatest sorcerer in the world. I also say the smartest moat knowledgeable, which is how he came to be ssmuch a great sorcerer.
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@SmilerLoki, i stand corrected! ;)
I so liked the scenes with Koringhus I can almost quote them from memory, so no wonder that passage stuck in my head!
I still sont see whybit would matter if Dunyain are closer to Tekne weapons race. Kellhus dispatchex Aurang with ease and Sacarreess couldnt touch Aurang. So it stands that Kellhus is the greatest sorcerer in the world. I also say the smartest moat knowledgeable, which is how he came to be ssmuch a great sorcerer.
The point of that quote is, Dunyain breeding worked, making them more than Men. That was brought up in answer to your question why I think they deserve to be put in a separate category when intellect is concerned.
Thinking about Kellhus and his abilities now, I compare him to other full-blooded and fully-trained Dunyain (because the Mutilated exist, which has bearing on further developments in Earwa). On this my views are as follows: he is in their top 0,2-0,3% by virtue of being a prodigy, but he is not alone in those percentages. This is a realistic outlook on the distribution of talents in a given population, and so I use it as a baseline for the Dunyain population, too. Since we have little information about what other Dunyain do during the events of the series, I consider calling Kellhus the best and smartest premature. I fully expect to get new and exciting revelations precisely about the abilities of other Dunyain (again, because the Mutilated exist). In that regard, my narrative spider-sense is tingling. Additionally of note is the fact that, however it happened, in the confrontation with the Mutilated Kellhus lost.
There is also the matter of the Boy, but he isn't fully-trained, so I expect him to be significantly weaker than the Mutilated or Kellhus. Though I'm not objecting to surprises here, obviously.
Lastly, someone being the best (the smartest, the most powerful, etc.) in everything is completely unrealistic. Someone being without fail the best in something for a significant amount of time (and not just winning one competition, two competitions, or even three competitions) almost never happens, and when it does, it speaks more about luck than anything else. You can see that in sports, in chess, in LoL or StarCraft, whatever strikes your fancy. But it's even more complicated than that. Let's take being the smartest. There are countless avenues of applying your smarts, and they all take time. When you put that time in math, you fall behind on chemistry or trickery. But it's more complicated still. Math is a vast field, and you don't actually learn it in its entirety, you work only on some subjects, inevitably at the expense of others. When you don't think about something, people who do become your betters in those matters. This happens even if you are actually smarter than them and would've achieved better results were you putting your time in their subjects. But your time is limited, you are not omniscient and can do only so much. This is why Kellhus needed to be taught the basics of sorcery, for example. That subject was too advanced (not to mention dangerous) to try to discern by himself and have a chance against trained practitioners afterward.
As Bakker says, Kellhus is one intellect, two hands.
But let's take another example. Say there is a long-range shooting discipline where your results are consistently 98-100% accuracy. You are great, you win competitions fairly often. Your closest rival has only 93-95% scores. Now, imagine there is a shootout, where we for the sake of simplicity disregard luck, speed, difference in mental states, etc. Everything except accuracy. You have 98-100% chance to shoot your opponent dead. But they have 93-95% to do the same to you. This is what I'm talking about when I say some differences are negligible. Your opponent is inferior, but in a confrontation they still present 93-95% chance of death, which is game over, no more you. And this is just one opponent. That's how I see Kellhus looking at a confrontation with other Dunyain even if he considers his abilities superior.
So this whole line of thinking about someone being the smartest or the strongest looks a bit childish to me. I don't think it helps our understanding of the series, because so far Bakker consistently demonstrates admirable adherence to a realistic outlook in things he doesn't explicitly call and show as supernatural (the terms he uses for it vary, of course). Supernatural things work however he wants them to, obviously.
So, if Bakker says Kellhus is the strongest sorcerer, I understand that very generally. It wouldn't mean to me that he would invariably win every sorcerous confrontation. It wouldn't mean there aren't those who wield comparable power (though they probably would need to be Dunyain). It would mean he knows more and can do more than other sorcerers, yes. But not all knowledge is (immediately) practically useful and not all knowledge helps in battle. Not all skills and sorcerous techniques do. And even having superior knowledge doesn't mean knowing everything. For example, Kellhus wasn't able to equip the Great Ordeal with flying chariots, because he "hasn't plumbed the secrets of Mihtrulic" (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2083.msg31821#msg31821).
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This is where they bring up "the Art of human extinction, not the fact" matter. I should note that I didn't interpret it as them being ecologically conscious.
True enough. Interesting.
“Where you immersed yourself in the Tekne, took up the generational toil of recovering what the Inchoroi have lost, I mastered the Daimos, plundered the Houses of the Dead.”
Hmm...
I attribute the stomp to Kellhus, but being already on the verge of full possession and falling into it shortly after. Here is how it looked like:
“And yet you forget,” Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied, grinning.
His reflection raised a knee, stamped a sandalled heel down ...
A cataclysmic thump, mazing the obsidian polish with concentric fractures, resounding through the mountainous bones of the structure, where it reverberated and returned to rock them all ...
Without uttering a word of sorcery.
Following that he talks about the Gnosis and the Daimos (the quote before this one) and only after that goes full Ghost Rider.
Interesting... I do need to pay closer attention to the end of the canon artifact when I come back to my "Reading the..." thread.
This is really unfortunate and probably explains a suspicious lack of innovation in the genre.
+1
(except maybe the Survivor, who didn't do much for the plot)
Well, he's an unsettling cipher for the Mutilated, at least.
There is also, for example, a possibility of someone being insignificantly inferior to Kellhus for all narrative means and purposes. It's a way to continue the Dunsult line, which would be interesting to me.
The Boy?
Bakker, Bakker, Bakker!!!!
Lmao. That's great.
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(except maybe the Survivor, who didn't do much for the plot)
Well, he's an unsettling cipher for the Mutilated, at least.
By the Survivor not doing much for the plot I meant he wasn't part of many narrated events, not that he didn't have a role. He had several, all of which are important. He is one of the reasons I consider the Mutilated so important, certainly.
The Boy?
This is what I currently think about the Boy:
There is also the matter of the Boy, but he isn't fully-trained, so I expect him to be significantly weaker than the Mutilated or Kellhus. Though I'm not objecting to surprises here, obviously.
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Just a couple of general notes here and i am curious as to whether anyone else has run across this. I have a couple of friends that i introduced to RSB years ago and they just finished TUC - and its fair to say that they are deeply confused. Deeply. They are more casual readers. They have never been on this board, or Westeros, or any reddit AMA for this, etc.
RSB can obviously write however and for whomever he wants, but, i think he overestimates his clarity. To that point - did the collective hive mind ever figure out the obvious thing RSB said we were all missing? If so, i havent seen it.
I feel like we are all experiencing a bit of epistemological closure and are falling down the rat hole of speculation. I love world building as much, if not more so than the next guy (you should have seen the D&D campaigns i made/illustrated/planned out) but when the character motivations/plot require so much post hoc parsing i worry that maybe we and RSB are getting a little lost in the forest for the trees.
in the end i think the GR is an event horizon and we effectively really dont know jack shit more after TUC than at the beginning of the book regarding Ajokli and Kellhus. I have this vague feeling that RSB is just screwing w/us and that TNG series will also end w/o remotely any sort of resolution. I am not really clear on why TNG is even being written tbh. Im fine w/the dunsult winning and TNG reaping humanity. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Yeah that sounds about right.
These books will never be commercially successful because they are, well, written in a way that's totally inaccessible to a casual reader. Not because they are 'too dark', or 'too philosophical', or 'too deep' - there are plenty of books are the more of any of these things and are still greatly successful.
It seems the books were written for those jokers (me) who wanted to spend a few dozen, or a few hundred, hours analyzing it. There's so much going on that a surface level reading just won't get you to a satisfying place, and so much obfuscation that a deep reading won't get you there either. This, I believe, was a stylistic choice to some degree. Meaning its not like it was an accident. That said, I think Bakker believed he was far more clear than he was. Unfortunately, his vision was for things to remain a big mystery until the bitter end, so there was no way for him to really gauge if he was being 'too mysterious'.
So I'd disagree that we are getting lost in the forest for the trees. That's the whole idea. Obviously, that's going to drive some away, and it doesn't mean that only 'smart' people will 'get it', nor does it make it better/worse writing. "It is what it is", the rest is just how we feel about it, right?
Regarding TNG, there's a good chance you are correct. Those still hoping for a tell-all final installment will probably be disappointed, again, and will probably have a cool little book burning party and feel personally assaulted by the lack thereof - including some people here.
As for why TNG? Hard to say. The obvious answer is that "its a trilogy and TNG is book 3". Probably also Bakker still has stuff to write, stories to tell, threads to tie together (or not), etc. In my head though, it'll be a meandering path, with plenty of forks, mostly leading to nowhere, with scraps in worldbuilding strew about to make things a bit more clear for the folks who are still bothering to piece it all together. There's clearly a much larger World that's still behind the veil, especially if you've looked at any of the (imo poorly written) short stories. Bakker could probably write in the TSA universe until he dies and still have mysteries left untold.
YMMV, but I'll happily be along for the ride.
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Regarding TNG, there's a good chance you are correct. Those still hoping for a tell-all final installment will probably be disappointed, again, and will probably have a cool little book burning party and feel personally assaulted by the lack thereof - including some people here.
That group will include me, I'm sure. I'll be sure to send you photos of me feeding my copies of TSA into the bonfire.
Nice snark, Wilshire. But I'm pretty used to ambiguous resolutions. Modernism is not exactly a new game, you know. On the level of feeling personally assaulted, it ranks level with watching a car driving ahead of me with its blinker on for mile after mile. Annoying, but that's life.
Cheers!
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The thing is is as Wilshire hit the nail on the head. If you like these books, you like tying together the mysteries and how things work in the world. Another nail on the head, I doubt we'll get a whole lot of clarity on that front.
I'm not a smart dude. I don't give a rat's ass about Blind Brain Theory and what not. Crash Space....just don't give a shit. I really don't. And, i won't fake like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to it, either. The thing is, is Bakker will have missed the $$$'s If he would just give a little resolution. I know he's trying to push his theories and such, but man, this series would be an all time great if he gave us that. He's missing out fellows, not us.
I can deal with it. I see, somewhat, what he is trying to do. I didn't have a bossy and throw the book at the end of TUC, matter of fact I think it took me a few days to even post anything. I needed to process what I just read. Usually, I don't have to do that with a book. So, it could be a good thing. Its all in hiw you digest it. Being a philosophy geek or just a run of the mill fantasy guy, I don't think makes much of a difference processing the end of this book.
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@Rot: Dude, I'm all in! When do we begin your D&D game? Can I be an evil fe-male Sorcerer/Assassin? If not, I'll be a male Bard.
@Wilshire: You're right. For me, this series has provided the greatest disparity of intrigue/surprises from the inane of anything I've read ( so much out there, the "surprise" ending is idiotic and completely made up - no litigate progression from the plot ). His expression of "evil" psychology amazes. For me, these strengths outweigh the convolution/obscurity and taxing naming conventions. I guess that's what any read comes down to, does the work overcome the author's imperfection/weaknesses for you. Even the bible is loaded with contractions and God wrote that ;). But you're right, it's a matter of taste if you want to go on this PON journey and be left without closure ( I'm fine with it never ending, I want more books! ). I've had a ton of fun reading this thing and I felt that way before I came to this forum with my tail between my legs on some things I couldn't figure out.
@Beard: Sing it, brother! I'm guessing your response would be touching for Bakker ;D
@MSJ: I'm with ya, would love to see this cat haul the dough in on this, but not sure an "ending" is the ONLY thing that would do it and maybe even other business transactions in lieu of ending it as well.
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I don't give a rat's ass about Blind Brain Theory and what not. Crash Space....just don't give a shit. I really don't. And, i won't fake like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to it, either.
That's a blurb, MSJ! If RSB ever publishes his philosophical essays, that's the blurb I want to see on the dust jacket.
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I think a part of Bakker's unnecessary vagueness comes from needing a better editor.
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I think a part of Bakker's unnecessary vagueness comes from needing a better editor.
Agreed, from his Q&A, it appears he expected us to understand more than what we did.
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I think a part of Bakker's unnecessary vagueness comes from needing a better editor.
Ha, yeah, especially for TUC in my opinion. The editing was damn near an atrocity tale in its own right.
@Taohorror - it has been literally decades since i played D&D. I went to the desert on my annual trip w/some new guys htis year and there was some talk about starting a new campaign but it died. We're old, significant others, kids, jobs, etc etc. The magic of dice, 3x5 character cards, painted miniatures, grid paper for maps, all the gd peanut butter cups a man can eat + some shitty beer..man, those were the days. Im middle aged and still can remember so sharply the good times i had playing D&D with ppl who cared.
Generally speaking - i am all in with RSB generally. I will buy and read The No God, and think about it. I just dont think its necessary. Id love to see some more short stories that fill in some specific world building here and there. I did not really like TUC at first. But upon a second and third re-read i have come around. I still think it has significant and hurtful blind spots but its already aging well for me.
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The thing is is as Wilshire hit the nail on the head. If you like these books, you like tying together the mysteries and how things work in the world. Another nail on the head, I doubt we'll get a whole lot of clarity on that front.
I'm not a smart dude. I don't give a rat's ass about Blind Brain Theory and what not. Crash Space....just don't give a shit. I really don't. And, i won't fake like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to it, either. The thing is, is Bakker will have missed the $$$'s If he would just give a little resolution. I know he's trying to push his theories and such, but man, this series would be an all time great if he gave us that. He's missing out fellows, not us.
I can deal with it. I see, somewhat, what he is trying to do. I didn't have a bossy and throw the book at the end of TUC, matter of fact I think it took me a few days to even post anything. I needed to process what I just read. Usually, I don't have to do that with a book. So, it could be a good thing. Its all in hiw you digest it. Being a philosophy geek or just a run of the mill fantasy guy, I don't think makes much of a difference processing the end of this book.
Lmao. Though, I still don't understand how could anyone be angry from TUC's ending but, hilarious post, MSJ ;)
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Regarding TNG, there's a good chance you are correct. Those still hoping for a tell-all final installment will probably be disappointed, again, and will probably have a cool little book burning party and feel personally assaulted by the lack thereof - including some people here.
That group will include me, I'm sure. I'll be sure to send you photos of me feeding my copies of TSA into the bonfire.
Nice snark, Wilshire. But I'm pretty used to ambiguous resolutions. Modernism is not exactly a new game, you know. On the level of feeling personally assaulted, it ranks level with watching a car driving ahead of me with its blinker on for mile after mile. Annoying, but that's life.
Cheers!
Lmao, I always wish there was some way I could tell 'that guy' that his blinker was on.
I was intending to be funny, rather than snarky (might have missed the mark though), and not specifically referring to anyone in particular. In fact, last round we got a handful of people that came, registered, and made a post just so they could have someone to yell at - I expect this will be the case again. Still though, I'd be more surprised if there weren't at least some regulars around here that feel as I have said. Anyways, at least for that first group, I really did sense that some felt a deep, personal betrayal, and just with the blinker guy, I wish there was something I could do to help.
Full disclosure, I don't know what modernism is ;) .
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Regarding TNG, there's a good chance you are correct. Those still hoping for a tell-all final installment will probably be disappointed, again, and will probably have a cool little book burning party and feel personally assaulted by the lack thereof - including some people here.
That group will include me, I'm sure. I'll be sure to send you photos of me feeding my copies of TSA into the bonfire.
Nice snark, Wilshire. But I'm pretty used to ambiguous resolutions. Modernism is not exactly a new game, you know. On the level of feeling personally assaulted, it ranks level with watching a car driving ahead of me with its blinker on for mile after mile. Annoying, but that's life.
Cheers!
Lmao, I always wish there was some way I could tell 'that guy' that his blinker was on.
I was intending to be funny, rather than snarky (might have missed the mark though), and not specifically referring to anyone in particular. In fact, last round we got a handful of people that came, registered, and made a post just so they could have someone to yell at - I expect this will be the case again. Still though, I'd be more surprised if there weren't at least some regulars around here that feel as I have said. Anyways, at least for that first group, I really did sense that some felt a deep, personal betrayal, and just with the blinker guy, I wish there was something I could do to help.
Full disclosure, I don't know what modernism is ;) .
Literary modernism entails, among other things, radical narrative experimentation (multiple POVs, ambiguous resolutions, discontinuous narrative structure, etc.). By now, they're familiar literary devices. Their use in genre fiction is relatively recent, to be sure. And Bakker absolutely raises the stakes by positing an absolutely "unhappy ending" to his saga.
The creation and reading of fictions is deeply personal, and you correctly recognize the real pain some fictions create for their readers. Book-burning....maybe a step too far in dealing with the pain. I just put TUC on the shelf and will leave it there for....who knows, but quite a while. I watched "Memento" one time, and I was so distraught by the protagonist's predicament that I've never watched the movie again.
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Memento was more clever than it was good - but still a decent movie. Much bigger fan of Nolan's later work.
I'm a simpleton, I live for the aha moments in stories, love to be surprised and getting screwed over in PON/TUC has been a tasty experience for me.
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Thanks for the exposition, much appreciated.
Probably going way off topic, but BFK, do you ever wonder why you keep coming back? I recall you had a somewhat similar reaction to Neuropath, or at least similar in that it was emotional. I'd not, then, peg you as someone who'd enjoy reading or discussing the books further. Obviously, I'm wrong since you're here and doing just that... But I wonder if you have ever thought about it?
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Aw, he comes back because he digs us! This is the cool corner of the web, be in the in-crowd :)
Don't chase him away, Wilshire - I like Beard! He was so nice to me when I rejoined back in Spring.
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Thanks for the exposition, much appreciated.
Probably going way off topic, but BFK, do you ever wonder why you keep coming back? I recall you had a somewhat similar reaction to Neuropath, or at least similar in that it was emotional. I'd not, then, peg you as someone who'd enjoy reading or discussing the books further. Obviously, I'm wrong since you're here and doing just that... But I wonder if you have ever thought about it?
"Do I ever wonder why I keep coming back?" I could give a funny answer, but I know exactly why I come back.
1) Bakker writes very engaging fiction, and I'm trying not to let my misgivings concerning his big-picture views get in the way of what is a very vivid and strangely appealing saga. (There's a blurb for you!)
2) As for Neuropath, I consider the antagonist one of the most evil characters ever created. Further, the ideas behind Neuropath are vitally important and need to be challenged and discussed.
So, for me, the Forum is a forward observation post of sorts. I can observe the development of ideas that concern me.
Plus, good people are involved. It's a good place.
Also, what Tao said!
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Aw, he comes back because he digs us! This is the cool corner of the web, be in the in-crowd :)
Don't chase him away, Wilshire - I like Beard! He was so nice to me when I rejoined back in Spring.
Eh, unfortunately I appear to be a permanent blemish to the place ;), so I hope my more inane inquries aren't that off-putting, though I'm sure that's happened on accident.
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Very cool. You are a fascinating human, please do stick around so I can continue to enjoy your typings.
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Aw, he comes back because he digs us! This is the cool corner of the web, be in the in-crowd :)
Don't chase him away, Wilshire - I like Beard! He was so nice to me when I rejoined back in Spring.
Eh, unfortunately I appear to be a permanent blemish to the place ;), so I hope my more inane inquries aren't that off-putting, though I'm sure that's happened on accident.
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Very cool. You are a fascinating human, please do stick around so I can continue to enjoy your typings.
Tao and Wilshire, you guys made my day! As is evident, my absence was temporary and entirely due to my disinclination to discuss TSA matters in the immediate aftermath of reading TUC. Heap big medicine in that tome, to be sure.
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I'm so happy to know I wasn't the reason you left - I was hard on you many times, but purely as a joke/entertainment. My "gang" here at home, we super-saturate ourselves with insult humor - the harsher the insult, the greater the love ... so it "seeps" out of me in mixed company from time to time. I won best come back ever with my peeps 20 years ago and still hold the award! I'm so proud!
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Lmao. Though, I still don't understand how could anyone be angry from TUC's ending but, hilarious post, MSJ ;)
Redeagl, do live a dream world of bias confirmation? Kellhus was actively trying to save humanity. Did he have to do evil shot to try and accomplish that goal, sure. But, he was for saving humanity, preventing resumption. You're in denial homeboy. But, I still love ya, brother.
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I'm not sure Kellhus tried to, per se, "save" humanity as opposed to getting rid of competition and then using humanity in some nefarious way himself in accordance with his modus operandi of mastering the circumstances.
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I'm not sure Kellhus tried to, per se, "save" humanity as opposed to getting rid of competition and then using humanity in some nefarious way himself in accordance with his modus operandi of mastering the circumstances.
All true, but I agree with MSJ, he was trying to "save" humanity - now from what exactly, still not clear ( save from TNG, save from the gods ... maybe both or something else ). It's muddied due to the Ajokli possession, hope to find out more in the next books.
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hope to find out more in the next books.
As do I!
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All true, but I agree with MSJ, he was trying to "save" humanity - now from what exactly, still not clear ( save from TNG, save from the gods ... maybe both or something else ). It's muddied due to the Ajokli possession, hope to find out more in the next books.
We do know why or what he was trying to save humanity from, from the Thousandfold Thought. He was trying to destroy the Consult and prevent the rise of the NG. That is what tthe thought was. Dis he have plans to use the Diamos and also alter Heaven/He'll or destroy the Gods also? I don't know. But, we do know what the TT was about.
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Just a couple of general notes here and i am curious as to whether anyone else has run across this. I have a couple of friends that i introduced to RSB years ago and they just finished TUC - and its fair to say that they are deeply confused. Deeply. They are more casual readers. They have never been on this board, or Westeros, or any reddit AMA for this, etc.
I think the majority of your speculation is warranted from certain perspectives but I too have a number of these casual friends - who long preceded any foruming about Bakker - who found reading the end as expected (twists aside). One even was about fifty pages from the end two weeks ago and he basically plotted the whole novel from about halfway through given that TAE is one story in four parts.
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The other problem is that his draft readers (and especially us fan-draft readers) "got it" for the most part, especially given the time we've interacted with the series... that becomes truly problematic alongside the lack of an editor.
That group will include me, I'm sure. I'll be sure to send you photos of me feeding my copies of TSA into the bonfire.
Fuck, I'll come with just for the lols, BFK. Have a beer, buy a couple copies of Bakker, and toss them in the fire. I'll make sure to have all the media on hand.
I'm convinced nothing sells books like book burnings on the news. Likewise, let's get Bakker into libraries and then call vehemently for their removal ;).
That's a blurb, MSJ! If RSB ever publishes his philosophical essays, that's the blurb I want to see on the dust jacket.
Through the Brain Darkly, whenever it sees its day.
I think a part of Bakker's unnecessary vagueness comes from needing a better editor.
+1
Agreed, from his Q&A, it appears he expected us to understand more than what we did.
+1
Ha, yeah, especially for TUC in my opinion. The editing was damn near an atrocity tale in its own right.
I can say with certainty that the editing for TGO was worse - much worse. TUC benefited only from being an already finished first draft when Bakker submitted TGO in '14 and so he himself spent more time with it and fixed more of the mundane errors (let alone plotting errors) that a simple copy-edit should have caught on Overlook's part.
Literary modernism entails, among other things, radical narrative experimentation (multiple POVs, ambiguous resolutions, discontinuous narrative structure, etc.). By now, they're familiar literary devices. Their use in genre fiction is relatively recent, to be sure. And Bakker absolutely raises the stakes by positing an absolutely "unhappy ending" to his saga.
You know, Bakker claims an outright distaste for Gene Wolfe-style "modernism." I've always wondered how his authorial expression will differ.
So, for me, the Forum is a forward observation post of sorts. I can observe the development of ideas that concern me.
Plus, good people are involved. It's a good place.
Lol - happily welcome the apparent enemy to camp ;).
Really curious how I help to develop disconcerting Bakker philosophies - especially seeing as I'm a dedicated Normie and think Bakker is largely an optimist.
Tao and Wilshire, you guys made my day! As is evident, my absence was temporary and entirely due to my disinclination to discuss TSA matters in the immediate aftermath of reading TUC. Heap big medicine in that tome, to be sure.
Hopefully we're a half decent panacea ;).
I'm so happy to know I wasn't the reason you left - I was hard on you many times, but purely as a joke/entertainment. My "gang" here at home, we super-saturate ourselves with insult humor - the harsher the insult, the greater the love ... so it "seeps" out of me in mixed company from time to time. I won best come back ever with my peeps 20 years ago and still hold the award! I'm so proud!
That's exactly how I am with the group I grew up with, Tao, but have to remember that here is another unique meld, obviously ;).
All true, but I agree with MSJ, he was trying to "save" humanity - now from what exactly, still not clear ( save from TNG, save from the gods ... maybe both or something else ). It's muddied due to the Ajokli possession, hope to find out more in the next books.
That's an interesting thought. While the No-God/Consult are certainly the obvious existential threat to Kellhus, it seems there must have been literature about Ajokli's constant will to power in Earwa against the Gods.
We do know why or what he was trying to save humanity from, from the Thousandfold Thought. He was trying to destroy the Consult and prevent the rise of the NG. That is what tthe thought was. Dis he have plans to use the Diamos and also alter Heaven/He'll or destroy the Gods also? I don't know. But, we do know what the TT was about.
I'm fairly sure Kellhus is simply supposed to be read as earnest. The time and place in which he descended among the worldborn dictated his mission. I mean, he is basically a twisted Zarathustra insert ;).
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Really curious how I help to develop disconcerting Bakker philosophies - especially seeing as I'm a dedicated Normie and think Bakker is largely an optimist.
See, and I mentioned somewhere that I thought the NG would be the redemption of man, not needing a super-human being, only men banding together to stop TNG. Because, of that review you linked. The guy said that Bakker is optimistic about mankind. And when I mentioned that, I got a reaction that that's not the story you get through his philosophy. I'm confused. Is the man optimistic about mankind or not?
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Honestly, I think it's a bit of both. That yes, humanity probably could survive without a Kellhus, but you will still have assholes who might end up ruining everything for whatever reason.
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Is the man optimistic about mankind or not?
I used to think that he thought it was possible for humanity to pump the brakes. But now I think he's moved firmly - and confusedly - into 'crash space' commentary.
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Honestly, I think it's a bit of both. That yes, humanity probably could survive without a Kellhus, but you will still have assholes who might end up ruining everything for whatever reason.
+1
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Is the man optimistic about mankind or not?
I used to think that he thought it was possible for humanity to pump the brakes. But now I think he's moved firmly - and confusedly - into 'crash space' commentary.
I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction. Granted, TPB is decidedly indecipherable, but what I do read (or the interviews he does), always seems firmly pessimistic regarding the future of humanity.
The Semantic Apocalypse and Crash Space are really "guys, we're all fucked" theories, but he never follows up with anything like "but gee golly if we just stand together, we'll pull through!" Its always something closer to 'our biology predisposes us to abject failure and we're a dozen centuries too stupid to do anything about it'.
But if there's optimism in there somewhere, do point it out :) .
BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.
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Wilshire, what do you want 3 books about then? Atrocities committed by the weapons races? I don't know how much more can be said, if the world is indeed destroyed.
Which got me thinking... Kellhus took care of Aurang in a sec and tossed him to the Sranc. So we have the Dunsult(I believe just Shae's new form), Mek's dead and Auruax is just a feeble lol creature. So, all this for a handful of people or aliens? Shut the world to the Outside by bringing the population under 144,000 or straight up wiping the plate clean. Who is Earwa left to then? Creatures without souls to begin with? What happens to the No-God when the number is reached? Then humans start having babies again? Does the Outside reconnect? What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through? And what would make e books even close to great about that?
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I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction.
Another great blurb!
BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.
Lmao, Wilshire!
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Wilshire, what do you want 3 books about then? Atrocities committed by the weapons races? I don't know how much more can be said, if the world is indeed destroyed.
Well, MSJ, I guess they call it "grimdark" for a reason.
What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through?
That, sir, is a question worthy of its own thread.
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Good questions MSJ! Had to do some thinking / reflecting. Longish post incoming :) .
Regarding what's contained within TNG, I'm guessing there will be nothing in terms of conclusions. Most like a series of interconnected short stories - largely a world building exercise.
If its 300 pages on atrocities, I doubt I'll finish it. But, just as TUC had just a few instances of that, I'm sure this one will too.
If its 'more of the same', ie if the story continues along the logical path that's been laid out from the start, I'll be satisfied. I don't know what that'll be, and I don't really hope it'll be anything in particular, but that its consistent. I'll be upset if it does a 180 turn and all of a sudden its rainbows and butterflies.
Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.
(To me, given the IRL time scale, its like asking "what's left" after reading Crippled God, or better yet since Erikson wrote the whole thing in about a dozen years, think of it as Bakker just got finished with House of Chains and it'll take him another 60 years to finish writing what's left of Earwa. Obviously TSA has been far more linear than MBOTF and the analogy is kind of weak and breaks down under scrutiny, but maybe that helps illustrate what I'm thiking?)
What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through?
There's little that's as subjective as what an individual likes, and I've got two answers for this specifically.
One, I enjoy the story, the universe, and the story telling. Something about it just gets me every time. I'm not sure I can precisely identify why, really. What makes TSA interesting is the world itself. All the ways everything is so intricately entangled. All the mysteries. The very human struggle to do, and to strive. To believe, and to live - the story really comes alive in parts for me, and I love it. So whatever stories Bakker writes about Earwa and beyond, I'll most likely read. For anyone new here - yes, I'm a fanboy lol.
But, two, what makes TSA interesting to me is that its not about humanity pulling through.
All the failures. The islands of success amidst the endless sea of failure. Glimmers of hope, despite all the hardship. To me, think of it like the how Yatwer priestesses regard donations - it doesn't count if you do it to buy favor into heaven. The story itself loses its meaning if everything works out in the end. Its not courage if know you'll succeed. To that end, the story has accomplished that in many small ways. Whether the plot of TNG resolves and humanity wins out, I'll probably not be (too) upset, because of how hard fought that will have been. Despite whatever larger resolution, there was still Proyas and Saubon, Akka and Esmenet, all those that were lost and broken along the way. I don't want, or need, a greater resolution to make TSA a better story. It might cheapen everything for me a bit though. Re-reading it, knowing that Proyas is betrayed makes his journey that much more heartbreaking. In the same way, if it does so happen that Bad happens (evil prevails, humanity dies, world is shut, etc. etc.), the story is more emotional for it. I get other's feel the opposite, and that's cool too :), but you had asked for my opinion, so there you have it.
TL;DR I'm a sucker and just like Bakker's writing. Earwa is cool too - I want more stories. :)
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I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction.
Another great blurb!
BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.
Lmao, Wilshire!
Lol, glad to be of service, as always.
Wilshire, what do you want 3 books about then? Atrocities committed by the weapons races? I don't know how much more can be said, if the world is indeed destroyed.
Well, MSJ, I guess they call it "grimdark" for a reason.
What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through?
That, sir, is a question worthy of its own thread.
Yeah, my response ended up being a bit lengthy. But what a question is worthy of, and what it gets, are unfortunately rarely the same. Easily rectified though - anyone can make a new thread, and I think it might be enlightening.
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Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.
Well, I would never expect butterflies and rainbows. Why would man defeating TNG be butterflies and rainbows? I couldn't see anything but a hard fought, winning by luck type of thing, can anyone say Mimara?
Yea, and there are a million stories in the universe. But, only one going forward. The NG is either destroyed or you have a bunch of stories of how fu king awful the world dying is. That's it. As someone said before, asking Bakker to do anything but man winning out and so it well, will be a first. If that's the case, TUC should be been the end. Of, he'll do the impossible and make it somewhat worthy of a read. Which would be a high task to have 3 books of the dying if the world.
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Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.
Well, I would never expect butterflies and rainbows. Why would man defeating TNG be butterflies and rainbows?
It would LITERALLY be butterflies and rainbows and unicorns because that would defeat the whole purpose of Meaning dying and pull us right back into the comfy-but-also-extremely-awful World with objectively real Gods/morals. Not to mention that Eschaton is an inherent property of this world. The way I see it right now, either the God itself will kill humanity (lol) or the No-God is causally predestined to succeed at some point.
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I have no expectation for the next books, only that I want to read them. Additional clarity on the ending of TUC would be cool ( for which Bakker may lean on a prologue to help clear some things and catch the reader up ), but not a demand - I'll take TNG read as it's delivered on it's own terms. It comes down to trust in the author - and I trust he'll deliver a winner. If I'm to guess ( i.e. not a wish ), he'll show us a possible human reaction to crashspace for which we may well entertain ourselves if he's accurately describing today's events.
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Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.
Well, I would never expect butterflies and rainbows. Why would man defeating TNG be butterflies and rainbows? I couldn't see anything but a hard fought, winning by luck type of thing, can anyone say Mimara?
It wouldn't have to be. As I thought about it more in that post, I came to the conclusion farther down that it could be done within the bounds of the story - I'd just be disappointed, which is not the same thing as the story being ruined lol. (I get the feeling you only read about half my post :( ).
Yea, and there are a million stories in the universe. But, only one going forward.
I feel you're being a bit unimaginative.
The entire series could take place over the course of a week and we could be no closer to knowing if NG was winning or not.
Or it could skip around in time.
We've tons of characters to check back up on. Again, think of Erikson's Malazan.
Prequels!
There's more than one way to tell a story, and far more than one story to tell.
FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.
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FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.
Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.
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Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.
Wait, you just said that the survival from the TNG would be rainbows, butterflies and unicorns....
Why can't the NG and the Gods die and there still be humanity? Why, some claim, that's the very world we live in.
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Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.
Wait, you just said that the survival from the TNG would be rainbows, butterflies and unicorns....
Why can't the NG and the Gods die and there still be humanity? Why, some claim, that's the very world we live in.
I have trouble imagining both, but we know NG has a timer so presumably there is a post-NG-world either way, right?
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FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.
Well, I hope not - a "final fate" could only mean extinction. Even if TNG is defeated, there are new threats on the way.
You're so literal :P. I mean't "final fate" as "what happens regarding whether or no the NG is successful and if the Gods are shut out forever". I would assume that either way Earwa continues to exist in some form, regardless of who wins,.
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I feel you're being a bit unimaginative.
The entire series could take place over the course of a week and we could be no closer to knowing if NG was winning or not.
Or it could skip around in time.
We've tons of characters to check back up on. Again, think of Erikson's Malazan.
Prequels!
There's more than one way to tell a story, and far more than one story to tell.
FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.
Oh yes, the boy wondering through the wilderness, Bakker Magnus opus on philosophy. And, who do we have to go back to but those that where there at the end? Momemn, doesn't exist anymore. Everyone of our characters converged on the Ark. Death of Meaning, doesn't mean the death of humanity. In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.
I did read your whole post, that little toss in at the end didn't convince me. ;)
Bakker said what he wanted to do was set out and give a story where a meaningful world becomes meaningless. We're not even there yet. Sorcery still works, the Outside is not shut. If, what he wanted to do was show the crash space and the end of meaning, he did a pretty good job with TUC with that. I don't know what else you would need to add. In fact, if there is no hope for humanity, writing post resumption, would probably ruin the series. Because, then it becomes a philosophical circle-jerk. Ask Erikson how well that worked out for him. Prequel? Sure. Lots and lots I would love to read about. I'm sure ill read whatever is TNG. But, if what you believe is what we'll be reading, Bakker has set his self a high bar.
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We've tons of characters to check back up on.
To me, there is only one character I care about at this point and that is Achamian.
As for the final fate of Earwa, yea I think an uncertain future type ending would make sense.
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Because, then it becomes a philosophical circle-jerk.
I would expect Bakker to specifically avoid this at all costs. Him writing the third series with that mentality interests me greatly.
Plot-wise, I'm ambivalent about the fate of the characters, humanity, Earwa, Outside, etc. I would like to see Bakker taking his lines of thought further. So far, with "The Aspect-Emperor" as compared to "The Prince of Nothing", he delivered big-time. So I can't say I'm worried.
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I feel you're being a bit unimaginative.
The entire series could take place over the course of a week and we could be no closer to knowing if NG was winning or not.
Or it could skip around in time.
We've tons of characters to check back up on. Again, think of Erikson's Malazan.
Prequels!
There's more than one way to tell a story, and far more than one story to tell.
FWIF, I doubt we'll ever know the final fate of Earwa.
Oh yes, the boy wondering through the wilderness, Bakker Magnus opus on philosophy.
Bakker wrote TUC as his Magnum Opus, though by definition one can't really define that until its pretty clear nothing else eclipses that work. He spent his whole life writing so he could get to, and tell, the story of TGO/TUC. So, the rest of gravy.
And, who do we have to go back to but those that where there at the end?
That whole story line (ie everything in Earwa other than The Great Ordeal)was a cliffhanger ending.
Have you forgotten about Meppa? Zeum? The actual fate of the empire? ... Just to name the obvious ones. I'm sure there's plenty more.
Why the instance that there must be nothing left but to follow around the dead ordeal?
In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.
That's a pretty bold statement. I disagree completely, there have been prediction of TUC rising and TSTSNBN being about that for a long time. Not that I called it either though.
Why can the world of Earwa only exist the way you have chosen to see it?
I did read your whole post, that little toss in at the end didn't convince me. ;)
Fair enough
Bakker said what he wanted to do was set out and give a story where a meaningful world becomes meaningless.
I'm just more confused now than before. Doesn't it make sense, that if Bakker's idea was to kill meaning, that TNG is about, well, TNG winning and meaning dying? Where does humanity redemption come in, if that's the point (which I believe you just claimed)?
We're not even there yet. Sorcery still works, the Outside is not shut. If, what he wanted to do was show the crash space and the end of meaning, he did a pretty good job with TUC with that. I don't know what else you would need to add. In fact, if there is no hope for humanity, writing post resumption, would probably ruin the series.
As I said above, there's still so much in the universe of Earwa that is left unexplored and unexplained. I guess for those of use who still aren't so sure of how everything works, there still a lot of interesting things to be written about.
If you've got it all figured out, I can see how more would be a waste of time, I'm just surprised that this seems to be your stance.
I'm also not clear why these things are mutually exclusive: Why, if there is no hope, is there no story left to tell, but if there is hope and it works out how you want, then all of a sudden there's stories left?
I guess what I'm driving at is why do you have to be right in order for there to be a story? It seems that either way there's plenty of words to read, wouldn't you agree?
Because, then it becomes a philosophical circle-jerk. Ask Erikson how well that worked out for him.
Not much to comment on. I'm not really sure how you got to this conclusion, but I'm pretty unclear on what you want or expect from TNG.
Prequel? Sure. Lots and lots I would love to read about. I'm sure ill read whatever is TNG. But, if what you believe is what we'll be reading, Bakker has set his self a high bar.
So, if yes to prequels, why do you not want or expect more world building, more stories, in TNG?
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Wilshire,
I don't have to be right to continue to read the story. Lol. But, you seem to have the same stance as me, but opposite. Why can't humanity survive and there also be the death of meaning? Meaning=Sorcery. The world doesn't have to die in order for it to lose meaning. And, I'm not saying I won't read the books, or that they won't be great, if its just about everybody's experience as the world ends. Its just would be a very hard thing to do.
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I would expect Bakker to specifically avoid this at all costs. Him writing the third series with that mentality interests me greatly.
Plot-wise, I'm ambivalent about the fate of the characters, humanity, Earwa, Outside, etc. I would like to see Bakker taking his lines of thought further. So far, with "The Aspect-Emperor" as compared to "The Prince of Nothing", he delivered big-time. So I can't say I'm worried.
To the above, I hope and pray he does.
I am interested in what happens next as much as anyone. I just cannot realistically see the doom of a dying world done and done well. If that is the case, it ended beautifully at TUC. I just don't understand where the minutae of a dying world would be fascinating or how he could make it so. The dying of the world, ended so right with, "and so, Anansurimbor Kellhus and his Great Ordeal died in butchery...". Perfect.
That's all I'm trying to say. Maybe I'm wrong and its a hoot. Is love it and read it either way. Its just my opinion that that option would be very hard to pull off well. That's it.
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I have trouble imagining both, but we know NG has a timer so presumably there is a post-NG-world either way, right?
Lol. You get up everyday and put your socks on and walk out the door, right? See any flying schoolman? Ever seen ssurrillic point to light your way on those hikes of yours? Didn't think so. This is where I'm getting at. The meaning which dies is the power of sorcery and god interacting directly in your life.
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Why can't humanity survive and there also be the death of meaning?
I think this is what most of us believe will happen, i.e. the world will be reduced to the 144k, the World is shut, and humans repopulate. What's interesting is the manner in which this will happen, of which we have have little idea.
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Wilshire,
Let me explain a little better, as I think you have me pegged wrong. I will always read anything that Bakker writes in this world. Hell, just his prose is enough to draw me in, let alone how he describes and so on. I love him. In a fucking huge fan boy too! I got a poster and patch to prove it! ;)
I don't need TNG to be anything. All I'm saying that the death of a world, the minutae of it, would be hard to pull off. Its 3 books man. That's a lot of death and despair.
I don't think we'll get much if anything from Momemn, remember it was hit by Momas. Not much left there. Truly interested in Zeum and Ciphrang Malowwbi. I wanna see Sarl and the boy. So much I want to see.
We can have the No-God defeated, lose meaning and the world still exists. That's what I want. Will I read it if its not that? Of course. Life ain't fair. You get what you get. I just hope its done well, is all.
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Wilshire,
Let me explain a little better, as I think you have me pegged wrong.
Mostly just confused. Thanks for clarity :)
I will always read anything that Bakker writes in this world. Hell, just his prose is enough to draw me in, let alone how he describes and so on. I love him. In a fucking huge fan boy too! I got a poster and patch to prove it! ;)
That's not in question. You're like, what, #5 most posts all time by a thin margin.
I don't need TNG to be anything. All I'm saying that the death of a world, the minutae of it, would be hard to pull off. Its 3 books man. That's a lot of death and despair.
I guess that makes a bit more sense. But to me, Bakker took Kellhus from apprentice monk to Ruler of the World in 3 books, and from there to basically God-King in truth in another 4. I think TNG has plenty of space to more/less end the war. Caveat #1, I bet TNG will be longer than his 'planned' 2 books. Caveat #2, even though I think he could do it well, I don't think he will - its just not how I'm guessing the story will go.
I don't think we'll get much if anything from Momemn, remember it was hit by Momas. Not much left there. Truly interested in Zeum and Ciphrang Malowwbi. I wanna see Sarl and the boy. So much I want to see.
Lots of stories to fill pages. See, I forgot about Sarl. Maybe he's going to ne our anti-Smegal or something.
We can have the No-God defeated, lose meaning and the world still exists. That's what I want.
Ok I'm following now. This is not at all where I thought you were going.
Will I read it if its not that? Of course. Life ain't fair. You get what you get. I just hope its done well, is all.
Of course, and I'm sure we all want that.
Cheers!
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]Caveat #1, I bet TNG will be longer than his 'planned' 2 books. Caveat #2, even though I think he could do it well, I don't think he will - its just not how I'm guessing the story will go.
See, here is evidence that we're closer to the same ideas than previously thought. I tend to agree with both caveats. And, #2 is what my original post was basically about. So I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you think the story will be the end of Earwa. Basically, as Bakker himself said, a few Atrocity Tales. What I took from that, is that he's going to write from varying perspectives the awfulness of a dying world. And, as others pointed out in the first place, that's a high order he's placing on himself to do, and do well.
That's why, for the sake of sales, and to make it a more prominent series, I think he needs to go the opposite direction. He needs to show hope. He hasn't shown a whole lot. Redemption for mankind in the face of Monsters (Consult) and the death of a Godlike figure (Kellhus). Which, was where my original idea came from.
There are many ways for this to be done, and it not be all butterflies and rainbows. Kellhus is dead but not done. He can alter the Gods, or straight up kill them. The NG can be defeated and the Gods killed or shut, it doesn't matter really, and Mankind survive. It can still be bleak and Bakker as hell. And, I don't understand where people don't think there's a real chance the NG isn't just straight up defeated....for good. Mimara, and hell if that tapestry is just thrown in there for shits and giggles, I'll be hugely disappointed. Akka's dreams and in-world theories that the Heron Spear didn't even kill the NG. There is textual evidence that indeed man will win out, but the world will become meaningless/shut or what have you, altered by Kellhus to stop the damnation cycle. This is why I don't why everyone is all, "that would go against everything and be unicorns and daisies...". There's actual textual evidence for it to happen that way. I think Bakker left himself that option.
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:Puts on Tinfoil Hat:
Lots of stories to fill pages. See, I forgot about Sarl. Maybe he's going to ne our anti-Smegal or something.
Unless, Bakker is huge fucking troll, he has said the following two statements and if I had time I'd find and quote. (But we do know these are things Bakker has said.)
1) We'll see Sarl again.
2) Kellhus is dead but not done.
Kellhus will have translocated his soul to the head tied in Sarl's beard, formerly known as The Captain. Boom! Heard it here first!
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Kellhus will have translocated his soul to the head tied in Sarl's beard, formerly known as The Captain. Boom! Heard it here first!
Wow, so exciting! And what exactly will he be doing there?
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Wow, so exciting! And what exactly will he be doing there?
One head is as good as the next and gets him out of the Ark. He meets the boy in the Woods...trains him the meta-gnosis/Psukhe/Daimos!
I said a tinfoil hat for a reason. ;)
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Wow, so exciting! And what exactly will he be doing there?
One head is as good as the next and gets him out of the Ark. He meets the boy in the Woods...trains him the meta-gnosis/Psukhe/Daimos!
I said a tinfoil hat for a reason. ;)
Kellhus (as Richard III): "A head! A head! My Empire for a head!"
-apologies to the Bard
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You're probably on to something -
the whole head thing has to be more than something simply cool ( well, it is very cool, but seem to be significant ). Could be the cat set this whole head thing up so he can bounce around ...
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MSJ, your whole post was easier for me to understand - thanks for being more verbose, sorry for being slow and needing things spelled out :P.
you think the story will be the end of Earwa.
Not at all. I think TNG will end somewhere in the middle of the war - with the no god still around and/or the fate of the world left uncertain.
Basically, as Bakker himself said, a few Atrocity Tales.
Something like that, yeah. I haven't read it, but he seems married to the idea of something like the Silmarillion.
What I took from that, is that he's going to write from varying perspectives the awfulness of a dying world. And, as others pointed out in the first place, that's a high order he's placing on himself to do, and do well.
Varying perspectives, yes. Awfulness of a dying world will be the setting almost certainly, but not the 'point' if that makes sense. In the way way that TAE had lots of horrible things happen, but they were the frame the story happened within.
That's why, for the sake of sales,
Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.
and to make it a more prominent series, I think he needs to go the opposite direction. He needs to show hope. He hasn't shown a whole lot. Redemption for mankind in the face of Monsters (Consult) and the death of a Godlike figure (Kellhus). Which, was where my original idea came from.
I agree that would be a more commercially viable story. Almost explicitly because of that, I don't think that will happen.
There are many ways for this to be done, and it not be all butterflies and rainbows.
I wasn't considering fully the options for this, and you're right, it could be done within the framework of the series to some degree, but I still think that outcome is a betrayal of the story itself. Thus far, the story has been about failure, not redemption. Yes, there has been some hope and some success along the way, but within the larger tapestry to abject failure.
Yeah, Bakker can write a story full of violence set within a bleak world. That said, an ending that is full of hope and promise for a better future would be against the theme of the entire series.
This is where our communicative breakdown is, I think. Its not that I think Bakker can't write a story in a way that makes sense. I don't think he'll literally turn TSA into Shannara or Harry Potter and have things just magically work out in the end and everyone will skip off into the sunset. There will obviously be plenty of grim realities in the books to come.
The point though, is that the story isn't about redemption - or at least 7 books in that's not a theme I've picked up on.
Its not about humanity prevailing in the face of evil.
Its not about the hero winning.
If the book suddenly becomes one of hope and success, regardless of how commercially viable that is, regardless of how much gratuitous violence is piled onto it, it'll be a betrayal to the story. To me, that will make it seem like everything that happened was a huge waste of time, which I detailed pretty well earlier but can go into more detail again if you'd like.
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To me, Bakker is a master of intrigue, suspense and surprise = all ingredients of a winning, blow my mind story. I hold no expectations on how it should end. No matter how he ends it ( yes, even if it's butterflies and rainbows ), I'm sure to be reading on the edge of my bed wowing aloud,
"Holy shit, that's fucked up! No! He didn't just do that! Fuck me, what the hell is going on around here?!".
In short, my friends - it's going to be fun no matter what he cooks up and he's wise to avoid this forum so as to disallow us from fucking him up.
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MSJ, your whole post was easier for me to understand - thanks for being more verbose, sorry for being slow and needing things spelled out :P.
Nah, usually takes me a few posts to articulate myself, hence the high post count. ;)
Not at all. I think TNG will end somewhere in the middle of the war - with the no god still around and/or the fate of the world left uncertain.
See, I don't see that. What is the point of Mimara? Alot of things point to a resolution of some sort. Wether its a good one or bad one, I could see either way. I don't know that we'll understand the fate of Earwa, but I think we'll see the NG defeated. No doubt in my mind.
Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.
Yet, his whole deal about writi g more hinges on sales. At some point he has to understand he needs some commercial viability. If not, we'll be a much community talking about this when we're walking around with a walking stick. Dozens of us. He needs to learn to make concessions.
This is where our communicative breakdown is, I think. Its not that I think Bakker can't write a story in a way that makes sense. I don't think he'll literally turn TSA into Shannara or Harry Potter and have things just magically work out in the end and everyone will skip off into the sunset. There will obviously be plenty of grim realities in the books to come.
The point though, is that the story isn't about redemption - or at least 7 books in that's not a theme I've picked up on.
Its not about humanity prevailing in the face of evil.
Its not about the hero winning.
If the book suddenly becomes one of hope and success, regardless of how commercially viable that is, regardless of how much gratuitous violence is piled onto it, it'll be a betrayal to the story. To me, that will make it seem like everything that happened was a huge waste of time, which I detailed pretty well earlier but can go into more detail again if you'd like.
No need to rehash, I get your side of the story, its just not one I totally believe in and do not think it goes against theme and plot. There is plot set ups the that NG will be defeated. Mimara, Akka's dream with the Heron Spear not killing the NG, and so forth. I cant wrap my head around yours and others insistent that it goes against the themes and couldn't be properly done. I would never expect a riding off into the sunset ending. I would expect a almost defeated humanity, that would have to start over and might not even make it. What with the mass amount of Sranc and whatnot that would still be left. I see nothing of unicorns and rainbows, rather, wtf are we gonna do know. Is there gods? Has sorcery ceased to exist, I think so. A whole different world still on the verge of failure, and that fate we will not know.
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In short, my friends - it's going to be fun no matter what he cooks up and he's wise to avoid this forum so as to disallow us from fucking him up.
Unfortunately, I agree.
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Glad we figured out where we're both at :) , 10 posts later, even if we're still at about the same place we started it was illuminating.
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Glad we figured out where we're both at :) , 10 posts later, even if we're still at about the same place we started it was illuminating.
Did you ever expect us to waiver?
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No need to rehash, I get your side of the story, its just not one I totally believe in and do not think it goes against theme and plot. There is plot set ups the that NG will be defeated. Mimara, Akka's dream with the Heron Spear not killing the NG, and so forth. I cant wrap my head around yours and others insistent that it goes against the themes and couldn't be properly done. I would never expect a riding off into the sunset ending. I would expect a almost defeated humanity, that would have to start over and might not even make it. What with the mass amount of Sranc and whatnot that would still be left. I see nothing of unicorns and rainbows, rather, wtf are we gonna do know. Is there gods? Has sorcery ceased to exist, I think so. A whole different world still on the verge of failure, and that fate we will not know.
The thing is, you can't both defeat the No-God AND the God. It's one of the other, and everything points toward the No-God winning. I don't know why some of you guys assume that means that Sranc will forever rule Eärwa though. Hell, you could say humanity won in the sense that the Mutilated and possibly Shaeönanra (my beloved hero) are still alive. Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.
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That's it, not my perspective at all. I've outlined mine. I think the God could still exist without the Outside. The Outside holds the shattered remnants of the God, the God merely sleeps. The Outside is a place for the 100, not God. So, you can defeat the NG and shut the Outside, but still have a God. More like how we would view our World. The God restored.
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Yeah, I think you're on to something about the perspective of TNG "winning" is a "bad" thing. Bakker has made it clear his writing (bp) challenges classic narrative prose, so here he dishes out a "sad" ending only to bring us full circle to a place where it's actually a "happy" ending. The goal is to hunt humanity to "near" extinction which may well pose a better future for humanity. That level of decimation may yield a brighter future than the alternative. And if Kellhus can "stop" the gods from gnawing on us in the afterlife, that's a big win. Bakker loves fucking with us.
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Glad we figured out where we're both at :) , 10 posts later, even if we're still at about the same place we started it was illuminating.
Did you ever expect us to waiver?
I aim to understand, not convince, generally, and learn something myself. All of things things has been accomplished - therefore, great success.
Hell, you could say humanity won in the sense that the Mutilated and possibly Shaeönanra (my beloved hero) are still alive. Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.
Yes, the inversion of "gods are bad, kellhus is bad, dunyain good, meaninglessness good" would not be a huge surprise.
Inchoroi/gods losing = humanity winning ... I can dig that.
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The goal is to hunt humanity to "near" extinction which may well pose a better future for humanity. That level of decimation may yield a brighter future than the alternative.
Any wound, save that which is fatal.
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The thing is, you can't both defeat the No-God AND the God. It's one of the other, and everything points toward the No-God winning. I don't know why some of you guys assume that means that Sranc will forever rule Eärwa though. Hell, you could say humanity won in the sense that the Mutilated and possibly Shaeönanra (my beloved hero) are still alive. Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.
I don't really agree that everything points to the No-God winning. But here's a really good predictor. As long as a shallow reading of the story would have it seem like a "bad" thing that the No-God wins, the No-God will probably win. If our beloved characters start realizing that they'd be better off if the No-God wins, the No-God is likely to be defeated.
I've read all Bakker's novels, and none of them have a straightforwardly happy ending. I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.
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Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.
As long as a shallow reading of the story would have it seem like a "bad" thing that the No-God wins, the No-God will probably win. If our beloved characters start realizing that they'd be better off if the No-God wins, the No-God is likely to be defeated.
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I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.
Yes, all these things.
obstinate, I think this is the dichotomy that's spread before us, you've articulated it well.
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I've read all Bakker's novels, and none of them have a straightforwardly happy ending. I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.
Oh, very Bakkerish! In fact that would be a worthy ending to these books and fall in line with the theme perfectly. See, mankind can survive and it not be rainbows and unicorns. Great post.
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I've read all Bakker's novels, and none of them have a straightforwardly happy ending. I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.
Oh, very Bakkerish! In fact that would be a worthy ending to these books and fall in line with the theme perfectly. See, mankind can survive and it not be rainbows and unicorns. Great post.
If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.
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Oh yea, I wouldn't blame you. The status quo on Earwa blew chunks.
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I don't know man. I guess we'd like to see a different ending than one another. Not s big deal. I take the destruction of the world is the one you seem to approve. I see how it fits thematically, you've laid it out well.
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If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.
My imagination isn't as good as Scott's. If his bibliography is any guide, it's going to be worse than what I described. Less satisfying. Read disciple of the dog or neuropath if you don't believe me.
The happiest outcome I can picture at this point is achamian preventing someone else from defeating the no god. But I doubt it will be that happy.
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Hey, I liked the dog book ( was hoping he would kick out the next one ). Neuropath was a buzzkill, but still liked it - not sure how much of it is true, but learned a lot.
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Oh yea, I wouldn't blame you. The status quo on Earwa blew chunks.
It's not even that the status quo sucks by itself, it's that it would go against everything he's said about all that "crash-space" shit. The story leads up to this impending transformation of the world and then in what is effectively the epilogue of the series everything just goes back to normal? That would be some sick literary cuckoldry/blue-balling/trolling.
If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.
My imagination isn't as good as Scott's. If his bibliography is any guide, it's going to be worse than what I described. Less satisfying. Read disciple of the dog or neuropath if you don't believe me.
The happiest outcome I can picture at this point is achamian preventing someone else from defeating the no god. But I doubt it will be that happy.
I've read the dog book and I didn't find the ending to be particularly bad, but then again that book wasn't set up to be what SA was set up to be. What you described was many times worse!
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Oh yea, I wouldn't blame you. The status quo on Earwa blew chunks.
It's not even that the status quo sucks by itself, it's that it would go against everything he's said about all that "crash-space" shit. The story leads up to this impending transformation of the world and then in what is effectively the epilogue of the series everything just goes back to normal? That would be some sick literary cuckoldry/blue-balling/trolling.
If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.
My imagination isn't as good as Scott's. If his bibliography is any guide, it's going to be worse than what I described. Less satisfying. Read disciple of the dog or neuropath if you don't believe me.
The happiest outcome I can picture at this point is achamian preventing someone else from defeating the no god. But I doubt it will be that happy.
I've read the dog book and I didn't find the ending to be particularly bad, but then again that book wasn't set up to be what SA was set up to be. What you described was many times worse!
I'm not sure what everyone means by "status quo" and "normal". Post-Arkfall, nothing in Eärwa is "normal". It's analogous to the Western discovery of the Americas. The Tekne is alien to Eärwa.
That said, I'm hoping that the surviving Eärwans find a way to knock the No-God offline AND reject the temptation of Logos/Tekne. That's far from a return to an unavailable status quo.
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The bigger game is not the success/failure of TNG or how it should "end", but how does humanity prevent so many ( maybe all of us ) from damnation. That's a 2 fold problem: those already damned ( is there a way to save them still - if there's not, while I understand the panic of those still living, a callous approach to throw millions under the eternal bus just to spare yourself ) and those in line to be damned. The Inchoroi determined TNG to be a solution to this problem, but there is still too much mystery about TNG ( like even it if reduces the population to 144k, would that break the soul cycle and shut the gods out - it might not, hasn't on other worlds apparently ). Also, are there alternatives less violent to accomplishing the same thing? Appears Kellhus thought so. Let me tell ya, if dying at the hands of the TNG meant avoiding eternal damnation, count me in!
In short, the next books will explore all of this on 3 or so levels: Individual TNG effect experiences ( hoping for some from the Mutiliated, but we'll get Akka/Mimarra/the boy/Moe Jr at the very least ), TNG war strategic experiences ( which cities fall, how fast, population counts, Zeum and other country resistance efforts, divine expressions perhaps ) and if any of this improves outlooks for humans in the afterlife. Damnation dwarfs all other concerns, so much so it led mad horrifying plans by The Consult to address it. Kellhus apparently was pursuing other avenues - while the GO was a hell of a journey ( pun intended ), it seemed to be a kinder approach than what The Consult are pursuing - but if Kellhus's approach fails, then The Consult are probably on the right track.
To bring this back around to the original topic, if I simply gain some insight as to what the hell happened in the GR, I would be satisfied.
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I'm not sure what everyone means by "status quo" and "normal".
As in, pretty much every thing that goes on in Earwa during the PON and Aspect Emperor. Basically, the way things have been for quite some time. Then, there's the Damnation. I mean, it's one thing if it's like the prison system where some people will get a certain amount of time depending on the crime, but it's another for it to be eternal.
IMO, if the No-God is defeated, it'll just be more of the same things. Slavery, your life basically being robbed of you for being born in the wrong "caste", being severely punished for stupid, petty things, most people being damned anyway, etc. Really, most people born in that area are damned in life. :(
As for the No God, it's possible that it's very existence is what shields people from damnation, not killing a bunch of people. Maybe that's where the Inchoroi went wrong. They didn't need to kill/womb plague, they simply needed the No God to be around. Whatever the case, the No God/Consult will cause a lot of social upheaval.
That said, I'm hoping that the surviving Eärwans find a way to knock the No-God offline AND reject the temptation of Logos/Tekne.
I'm sure some will, but I suspect that most won't. Especially if they think that the Consult=better lives for them.
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I'm not sure what everyone means by "status quo" and "normal".
As in, pretty much every thing that goes on in Earwa during the PON and Aspect Emperor. Basically, the way things have been for quite some time. Then, there's the Damnation. I mean, it's one thing if it's like the prison system where some people will get a certain amount of time depending on the crime, but it's another for it to be eternal.
IMO, if the No-God is defeated, it'll just be more of the same things. Slavery, your life basically being robbed of you for being born in the wrong "caste", being severely punished for stupid, petty things, most people being damned anyway, etc. Really, most people born in that area are damned in life. :(
As for the No God, it's possible that it's very existence is what shields people from damnation, not killing a bunch of people. Maybe that's where the Inchoroi went wrong. They didn't need to kill/womb plague, they simply needed the No God to be around. Whatever the case, the No God/Consult will cause a lot of social upheaval.
That said, I'm hoping that the surviving Eärwans find a way to knock the No-God offline AND reject the temptation of Logos/Tekne.
I'm sure some will, but I suspect that most won't. Especially if they think that the Consult=better lives for them.
You're making the mistake of reading our 21st century morality concerning slavery onto a world with a different morality entirely. You're making a judgement on Eärwan society based on our morality.
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the point of System Resumption is to kill a lot of people. That will indeed cause social upheaval. You're making it sound like the Consult will be issuing an Emancipation Proclamation and Medicare For All.
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Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the point of System Resumption is to kill a lot of people. That will indeed cause social upheaval. You're making it sound like the Consult will be issuing an Emancipation Proclamation and Medicare For All.
Exactly. The NG is meant to exterminate Earwa, or any other planet it has been on. I don't see, as a human being, you can find that fascinating...
There's clues that the NG has a timer and only lasts so long. I'm truly more interested in how damnation can be stopped without the use if the NG. Kellhus is dead but not done. He had contingencies, and we know that he was for the survival of mankind. That part of the story draws me in more than anything. Reading 3 books about the awesomeness of death of a world...not so much.
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You're making the mistake of reading our 21st century morality concerning slavery onto a world with a different morality entirely. You're making a judgement on Eärwan society based on our morality.
And, Kellhus changed laws on slavery and such. In fact, Dora Vee, I think you're argument is inherently wrong. Its not the lowly people who are damned. The ignorant, innocent and blind are the ones who find salvation. We know this through many venues of the series, but Koringhus lays it out best.
We assume everyone is damned because that all we see. But, those like you describe, slaves and low castes are ignorant and probably have a greater chance at salvation.
Most are damned, I agree. Bakker said, "The God just needs to like you." to be saved. And, I'm sure more goes into than that. But, slaves are not the one who the Gods set their eyes on for feasting. The more sin, the juicier meal for the Gods. Its those high caste that are the big meas for the Gods.
And place yourself on Earwa, without knowledge of all we know. Do you wanna die by the No-God and bands of raping Sranc? No? I wouldn't either. These people want to live as anyone else wants to live. Even when your in worst case scenarios, you want to live. I see no argument you can place in front of me for wanting the extermination of Mankind, to be a valid one.
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I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction. Granted, TPB is decidedly indecipherable, but what I do read (or the interviews he does), always seems firmly pessimistic regarding the future of humanity.
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But if there's optimism in there somewhere, do point it out :) .
I think it's important to separate his pessimism regarding humanity's capacity for change in ways that will make our fate possibly less horrifying and pessimism regarding our fate generally.
I mean, he is pessimistic about both but almost everything I've ever read by him - especially TPB - suggests "cautionary tale" rather than "prophetic fate." As I mentioned preceding this comment, pages ago now, he spends his time in attempt to convince us not to dive headlong into "crash space/whichevery."
My flow has been interrupted as I've been informed that my precious, precious handful of hours alone are quickly due for interruption and articulation is failing (headbang).
BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.
I'll join in on any burning of Bakker's books. Nothing sells books like their being burned.
The very human struggle to do, and to strive.
+1
Glimmers of hope, despite all the hardship.
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Its not courage if know you'll succeed.
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TL;DR I'm a sucker and just like Bakker's writing. Earwa is cool too - I want more stories. :)
+1
Regarding the middle quote, I believe Bakker even has a similar epigraph.
In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.
I'll disagree with this :P.
TAE gave us Sorweel, Psatma, Malowebi, Meppa, Mimara, hell, the half-Dunyain children? I certainly didn't expect any of these characters.
Of course, TNG will have new characters/POVs. The fact that anyone would think that TNG would focus on just our established principles from PON seems very strange to me.
Plot-wise, I'm ambivalent about the fate of the characters, humanity, Earwa, Outside, etc. I would like to see Bakker taking his lines of thought further. So far, with "The Aspect-Emperor" as compared to "The Prince of Nothing", he delivered big-time. So I can't say I'm worried.
+1
I don't think we'll get much if anything from Momemn, remember it was hit by Momas. Not much left there.
Momemn is only the capital of the Kellian Empire. In the opening chapters of TUC, Esmenet even mentions gathering all the remaining Columns to Sumna. I don't see the New Empire as being defeated by a long-shot, especially given that all the Orthodox will have a hard to arguing that the Aspect-Emperor spoke false, what with the Boding across the horizon.
That's why, for the sake of sales,
Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.
Lol.
In short, my friends - it's going to be fun no matter what he cooks up and he's wise to avoid this forum so as to disallow us from fucking him up.
Classic self-deprecating Bakker. I honestly don't think we can out-think him.
Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.
Yet, his whole deal about writi g more hinges on sales. At some point he has to understand he needs some commercial viability. If not, we'll be a much community talking about this when we're walking around with a walking stick. Dozens of us. He needs to learn to make concessions.
You know, I'm not totally convinced he isn't ready to embrace obscurity entirely.
I aim to understand, not convince, generally, and learn something myself. All of things things has been accomplished - therefore, great success.
+1
To bring this back around to the original topic, if I simply gain some insight as to what the hell happened in the GR, I would be satisfied.
Lol, oh no, good sir, we are far from the original topic right now. In fact, I'm sure this conversation is why MSJ made his thread in TNG subforum.
You're making the mistake of reading our 21st century morality concerning slavery onto a world with a different morality entirely. You're making a judgement on Eärwan society based on our morality.
I think you have to unpack these assertions, BFK.
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the point of System Resumption is to kill a lot of people. That will indeed cause social upheaval. You're making it sound like the Consult will be issuing an Emancipation Proclamation and Medicare For All.
Hmm... Lol, you never know. The Mutilated do have many new skin-spies and basically no one remains who can recognize them effectively (though, the Kellian Empire had distill cultural behaviours to combat disappearances and replacements). They've probably infiltrated Zeum since at least TJE - if that really was the *first* Sayothi Skin-Spy - and will find infiltrating the Three Seas much easier again in the absence of the Anasurimbor.
It'll be remarkably easy for them to spin new stories about the Consult or No-God or sabotage the resistance efforts of any given remaining human population (Sakarpus, Ordeal, Three Seas, Zeum). Though, I'm personally waiting for a load of Skin-Spies to be unleashed in combat. Fucking Cartilage-Quatropi.
On your first statement, profgrape and others have brought up that it seems the No-God's purpose is less about extermination specifically and more about "reading the code of souls" or whatever. I understand less than others seem to but there might to be something to it.
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I'll disagree with this :P.
TAE gave us Sorweel, Psatma, Malowebi, Meppa, Mimara, hell, the half-Dunyain children? I certainly didn't expect any of these characters.
Of course, TNG will have new characters/POVs. The fact that anyone would think that TNG would focus on just our established principles from PON seems very strange to me.
Show me where someone predicted that TSTSNBN would be a few Atrocity Tales about a dying world. If you can find it and quote it, I'll send you $100 cold cash. Not one time have I ever heard that predicted.
Sure, many, many a reader/poster predicted Kellhus would fail and the No-God would rise. Sure, heard it a 1000 times. Not one prediction about what we know now as TUC would be about the horribleness of a dying world. If you can show it, I back up my bet.
Of course, we will meet new characters. But, I still suspect our "main" guys to be there to the end. Esmi, Akka, Moe Jr., Mimara, I don't think Kayutas or Serwa is dead. Yet, sure, we will get Zeum, something I've been dying for. I hope we get some Eanna, more Mutilated and Bakker is great at making characters I love (never understood when people say TSA has no one to relate to, I find a little piece of myself in so many of them).
Anywho, find them predictions and ill buy ya something you need or want. Now, you've been around longer, but, I'm doubting you can find one. ;)
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On your first statement, profgrape and others have brought up that it seems the No-God's purpose is less about extermination specifically and more about "reading the code of souls" or whatever. I understand less than others seem to but there might to be something to it.
Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).
One, the No-God stops the Cycle of Souls and so, is the Death of Birth (for souled creatures). Two, the No-God somehow communicates with soulless Tekne creations (or unifies, or possibly supplants their will). Three, the No-God is a soul cipher, somehow decoding something from each's passing that is key in permanently closing off the Outside permanently.
In reality, one and two are just means to three though. Three is the whole purpose, once a population 144k is achieved, the code can become active and presumably function three gives way to a "fourth function" that is the actual sealing of the world once the code has been found and the population is at the proper threshold.
What the death of meaning gets at is not a death of human consciousness, or of human society (for the most part), it's the death of what we would call "Higher Meaning" in modern parlance. This presumes that "Lower Meaning" is actually not meaningful, which you can agree or disagree with, but in Eärwa this is presumed to be true. Let me operationalize what the difference between these are. Let's take an example:
Aurang rapes and murders thousands and then dies. "Higher meaning" has Aurang's soul damned. "Lower meaning" has Aurang remembered as a bad guy (ok, really bad guy). Without the soul, there is no conveyance of meaning beyond death. So, if Higher Meaning is gone, so is the accounting for what Aurang did; lower meaning might write what down what he did (for example), but that will only be an account of what he did.
So, when the No-God sunders Eärwa from the Outside, whatever happens loses any eternal quality. It loses any eternal consequence and so loses any eternal meaning. Everything is transient and pointless, except in the mundane terrestrial sense of meat begetting more meat. You were a righteous and pious person? Doesn't matter, you die and there is nothing. You were a callous and capricious person? Doesn't matter you die and there is nothing.
The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point? Supply your own answer, at this point. Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state? Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?
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Show me where someone predicted that TSTSNBN would be a few Atrocity Tales about a dying world. If you can find it and quote it, I'll send you $100 cold cash. Not one time have I ever heard that predicted.
In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.
I was specifically disagreeing with the "different characters" part - sorry, I should have been more specific.
Of course, we will meet new characters.
This.
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Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).
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The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point? Supply your own answer, at this point. Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state? Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?
H, this has to be the most cogent explanation of TNG I've read/thought about so far - very well done, thank you!
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Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).
...
The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point? Supply your own answer, at this point. Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state? Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?
H, this has to be the most cogent explanation of TNG I've read/thought about so far - very well done, thank you!
The question though, is that really what the series is? I mean, it seems most likely. I think that might be what Bakker meant when he said there were "two ways it could go." Or maybe I am just pulling things out of my ass...
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Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).
...
The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point? Supply your own answer, at this point. Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state? Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?
H, this has to be the most cogent explanation of TNG I've read/thought about so far - very well done, thank you!
The question though, is that really what the series is? I mean, it seems most likely. I think that might be what Bakker meant when he said there were "two ways it could go." Or maybe I am just pulling things out of my ass...
It's the soul of the series, the vessel is a badass fantasy story.
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Not done with this thread, only on page 11 of 18 (!).
Great commentary. Sausana and SmilerLoki, I do hope you come back and/or stick around :) .
Thoughts so far:
1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo. Probably the major reason for Iyokus' Ciphrang going back to hell happening on the far side of the bridge is important for that reason.
2)We have at least 1 other cipher for possession (Amiolas) and at least a few more examples of multiple souls inhabiting a body (kelmomas/samaras)
3)Kellhus entering the Golden Room - full possession seems like something he wasn't expecting. That he was planning on just scouting the room seems like it could be reasonable. Afterall, he's been happy to teleport around. Could be that once he set foot on the balcony he lost a great deal of agency.
4) "Pacts with the Pit" and "the living shall not haunt the dead" are still unclear to me.
5) Kellhus' eventual acceptance of the Darkness seems to suggest he doesn't know who is really in control, or that he know that Ajokli is controlling more than he was hoping and so he's trying to proceed with caution. Much like how Moenghus spent is last few moments back-peddling trying to rework his plan, when Kellhus comes to him Mad, yet still proceeding with it to his ultimate demise. Kellhus seemed to have ceded Ajokli the Darkness, but thought that perhaps just doing what felt right was somehow going to confound Ajokli. I attribute much of his emotions to this - rather than trying to dominate them he thought it somehow made sense at this point to just give into them (Esmi, Proyas, etc.)
6) Kellhus-Earthquake occurring before Ghost-Rider-possession is great. Given that we know Kellhus "does sorcery without doing sorcery"/"sorcery indistinguishable from the World" (without a mark, without glowing eyes, without speaking or whispering), I think this is one of those moments of Uber-Kellhus. ie one of those moments where we see what Kellhus can do. Even though the line is blurry, I still think Kellhus had plans on winning/stalling until TGO (or at least the important parts like the schoolpeople) made it to the Golden Room. That Ajokli then shows up and loses seems to be not part of the plan.
Also, thanks Madness for pointing out that if the Consult thought they could best him with sorcerous might they probably wouldn't have had 100 chorae bearing skin-spies lurking. While that seems obvious once pointed out, that hadn't occurred to me lol.
7) Ajokli 'magnetizing', or whatever controlling, the Chorae might point to the idea that all chorae are truly as Mimara sees them (not just the one we saw her see).
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1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.
I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.
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4) "Pacts with the Pit" and "the living shall not haunt the dead" are still unclear to me.
See my thoughts here (from page 7). (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.msg40941#msg40941)
1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.
I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.
And here I thought that full possession wasn't until his head erupted into flames...in any case, since we have no idea what would delineate partial and full possession, it will be impossible to really definitely know, one way or the other.
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And here I thought that full possession wasn't until his head erupted into flames...in any case, since we have no idea what would delineate partial and full possession, it will be impossible to really definitely know, one way or the other.
I agree 100% H. What I meant is that Malowwbi seeing the Globules is the beginning of the possession. When Ajokli begins to transit from the Outside to Kellhus, once in the Ark. The Globules are just the beginning. I agree, full possesion is when he stomps and Kellhus's head burst into flames. I agree.
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1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.
I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.
I don't think that means what you think it means: textual evidence. (jokes - reference to Princess Bride 'Vizzini' saying 'inconceivable!')
Anyway, I did provide evidence directly following the sentence you quoted:
Probably the major reason for Iyokus' Ciphrang going back to hell happening on the far side of the bridge is important for that reason.
Here is why I think that scene is important:
It doesn't happen when the Ciphrang is in the Ark, it happens when its outside. The threshold for new rules appears to be crossed at some point near the Ark, not inside it. Without argument, Kellhus is actually much, much closer to the center of the worlds biggest topoi - which is the Golden Room - than the Ciphrang was outside the base of the Horn.
Thus, an argument can be made that standing on the balcony caused Ajokli to gain a greater foothold on Kellhus' consciousness than maybe he was capable of previously.
The line is blurry - we can't see or know where the topos truly is. In fact, far stranger things happen at Mangecca and in Cil' Aujas (ffs remember the heart! that kind of just dead ended lol) than on the Fields Appalling (FA). I'd expect, given the immensity of the topos, fairly all of Agongorea but certainly the FA would exhibit major metaphyaical effects...
Ah, but I'm way off track. What I was pointing out was exactly what you asked - that TUC does provide enough evidence for an argument to be made.
I am not asking you to change your mind, nor am I even claiming to believe the argument itself. :)
Hmm, also please note that I did not make a single claim about 'globules'. I'm not going to find evidence to support an argument I didn't make. That said, if you'd like, we could probably make a new topic "Of Globes and Men" and have a lengthy discussion :) . (Oh, to that end, I might say that its possible that Malo had his own new rules upon entering. That the topos and its proximity to hell gave his dead eyes the ability to see what Ajoki was up to. That the DarkGlobes That Come Before were always there, but being in the room allowed him to see!)
btw, i also did not claim that full possession occurred at that moment. Only that it was a tipping point. I'm sorry if that caused confusion.
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edit: portion redacted. Didn't like how that read. Sorry about that, too.
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And here I thought that full possession wasn't until his head erupted into flames...in any case, since we have no idea what would delineate partial and full possession, it will be impossible to really definitely know, one way or the other.
I agree 100% H. What I meant is that Malowwbi seeing the Globules is the beginning of the possession. When Ajokli begins to transit from the Outside to Kellhus, once in the Ark. The Globules are just the beginning. I agree, full possesion is when he stomps and Kellhus's head burst into flames. I agree.
Ah see, you guys already covered it before I could get to it. Ok, now I gotta be tongue in chek: don't give me your opinion, show me where in the text that the Globules mean ... anything. Looks to me like the soggomatic metal had a smudge, and then when he turned away he was suffering some degenerative eye decay from being dead.
Just playing MSJ. Going through this thread though, you ask for evidence from the text a lot and sometimes I feel you don't acknowledge it when it when its provided. Keep an open mind!
4) "Pacts with the Pit" and "the living shall not haunt the dead" are still unclear to me.
See my thoughts here (from page 7). (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.msg40941#msg40941)
Heh, I've read up through 11. Despite yours and others best efforts, I'm still confused :) . Not your fault lol.
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Kepep an open mind!
Always.
I must excuse myself, as I thought you meant that was when possession occured. I think the Globules which are not only seen on Kellhus, but the other decapitants is enough evidence that that is when Ajokli's possession is occurring.
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Kepep an open mind!
Always.
I must excuse myself, as I thought you meant that was when possession occured. I think the Globules which are not only seen on Kellhus, but the other decapitants is enough evidence that that is when Ajokli's possession is occurring.
I edited my post like 35 times in the last 5 minutes lol. Sorry for the initial tone - I tried to revise it ...
Also, I'll write this bit again since you might have missed it due to my myriad edits:
I might say that its possible that Malo had his own new rules upon entering. That the topos and its proximity to hell gave his dead eyes the ability to see what Ajoki was up to. That the DarkGlobes That Come Before were always there, but being in the room allowed him to see..
Yeah, its pretty thin reasoning - just trying to play ball!
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Heh, I've read up through 11. Despite yours and others best efforts, I'm still confused :) . Not your fault lol.
Well, my short and simple explanation would be: the living never tread in the Outside (the land of the dead). Ergo, since Kellhus is there, he is dead. Just he hasn't actually been killed yet.
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My minuscule contribution ( was mentioned long before, reviving the point ), when Melo was "advised" to avert his eyes from the IF, that was Kellhus talking. To fuse Bakker's "clarification" (bp), the possession was in progress throughout Kellhus's progression through Golgatterath and Bakker's other clarification that Kellhus was "seized" when the head flamed, full possession occured at that point. What's dicey is what state of consciousness/agency does Kellhus enjoy during the process of possession - I can't tell from the text.
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What's dicey is what state of consciousness/agency does Kellhus enjoy during the process of possession - I can't tell from the text.
My opinion, and I think there is textual evidence for it, is none. He has no control. If so, he would've knew that Kelmommas was in the room and not have been taking off guard. Is have to reread it, but Kellhus seems completely unaware and in a state of shock when Ajokli releases him
I might say that its possible that Malo had his own new rules upon entering. That the topos and its proximity to hell gave his dead eyes the ability to see what Ajoki was up to. That the DarkGlobes That Come Before were always there, but being in the room allowed him to see..
Maybe, I don't think so. Again, I'd have to reread it. But, from my recollection from 6 months ago, is that he sees himself and Kellhus in the soggomat before and never mentions it. Then, he sees it and he wonders on it and right before Ajokli takes possession he sees it in the other decapitant.
That being said, leads me to a little pet theory. The decapitants are actually "doorways" for the Outside. And, that might be valuable for, "Kellhus is dead, but not done...".
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Lol. Back to MSJ's recent original comment, which I can't believe has been this confusing for two pages ;).
1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.
I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.
To the point, Malowebi actually doesn't get a chance to see the obfuscating "Globules" until Kellhus moves into a position where from Malowebi's hanging vantage he's able to see the reflection of what's going on in an extended piece of Soggomant.
Malowebi can't see Kellhus' head or the other Decapitant until that point, which as noted isn't until after the Mutilated reveal themselves. The "Globular" phenomenon could have been going on the whole time and we wouldn't have noticed it - and likely no character excepting the already severed, Decapitant disguised, head of Malowebi could have given us that particularly insightful POV either way.
EDIT: I should add, even once Malowebi is watching through the Soggomant reflection, he doesn't even look at the Decapitant or Kellhus until later in the conversation, as I recall.
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Yea but, Malo sees the Globules rise and get thicker in Kellhus. And he's sees the Decapitant go f from no Globules to full of them right before the possession. Which makes sense, because the Ark being such a huge Topoi and the barrier to hell so thin, its the only place for Ajokli to manifest with all of his power.
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In fact, In can find no mention of the Globules before this.
But the reflection of the Anasûrimbor across the golden fin stood motionless before the regard of the Mutilated.
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Lol. Back to MSJ's recent original comment, which I can't believe has been this confusing for two pages ;)
You only find it confusing, because you don't agree. You have your preconceptions.. I have offered you textual evidence that Mali seen Kellhus in the soggomat and no globules were present.
Furthermore, you speak to the MAN. And, if that's what your basic g your opinion off of, he does a very shotty job of conveying that in the text.
ETA: I went back and read the entire GR scene. Malo does see Kellhus in the "golden fin", but the above quote is after the globules. I have about 5-8 quotes proving that the globules were not there to begin with. I will give a post that's worthy when I have time.
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Would just like to say the term 'globules' is super lame lol, and seeing it written so many times is mildly frustrating (especially considering that it portends something of immense importance, for such a silly word).
Aside, turns out after page 11 I actually participated in the rest of the thread lol. No more commentary on the past from me (at least for this one).
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Yea but, Malo sees the Globules rise and get thicker in Kellhus. And he's sees the Decapitant go f from no Globules to full of them right before the possession. Which makes sense, because the Ark being such a huge Topoi and the barrier to hell so thin, its the only place for Ajokli to manifest with all of his power.
In fact, In can find no mention of the Globules before this.
But the reflection of the Anasûrimbor across the golden fin stood motionless before the regard of the Mutilated.
Lol. Back to MSJ's recent original comment, which I can't believe has been this confusing for two pages ;)
You only find it confusing, because you don't agree. You have your preconceptions.. I have offered you textual evidence that Mali seen Kellhus in the soggomat and no globules were present.
Furthermore, you speak to the MAN. And, if that's what your basic g your opinion off of, he does a very shotty job of conveying that in the text.
ETA: I went back and read the entire GR scene. Malo does see Kellhus in the "golden fin", but the above quote is after the globules. I have about 5-8 quotes proving that the globules were not there to begin with. I will give a post that's worthy when I have time.
I yield, MSJ ;). I haven't reread through TUC enough to claim any kind of expertise.
I also try very hard to limit any kind of influence my conversations with TMH might bleed into my posts here. There are plenty of things that he's outright told me that I haven't revealed and don't comment on (even as per TGO, for any rascals reading).
I can honestly say that I interpreted pretty much everything in the draft (which was less explicit than the canon artifact) as Bakker intended - you need only ask Wilshire, MG, Somnambulist, or profgrape as to how I hounded them for months before the book was released about Kellhus being ignorant of Ajokli and Ajokli's attempt at Earwan incarnation. I was more surprised than even Bakker probably to see how the majority of readers perceived "a deal" between Kellhus and Ajokli.
I'll have to look for better textual evidence to support my opinion on my reread (almost done LTG before I move on to the Atrocity Tales, Crash Space, and The Dime Spared).
Would just like to so the term 'globules' is super lame lol, and seeing it written so many times is mildly frustrating (especially considering that it portends something of immense importance, for such a silly word).
Lmao.
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Would just like to say the term 'globules' is super lame lol, and seeing it written so many times is mildly frustrating (especially considering that it portends something of immense importance, for such a silly word).
Bro, if you have a different word to offer up, I gladly switch! :)
I also try very hard to limit any kind of influence my conversations with TMH might bleed into my posts here. There are plenty of things that he's outright told me that I haven't revealed and don't comment on (even as per TGO, for any rascals reading).
Ok, even what we know from the AMA, Ajokli was slowly taking over and affecting Kellhus's decision making. I think that Wilshire is right, the gate was the tipping point. Because that's when he enters the Ark and the hell and Earwa's boundary is paper thin. I just think the Globules (Sorry, Wilshire) are a way to show the true manifestation of Ajokli. Its when you get something ain't right here. That's my reading. Doesn't mean its right. I think people think there is a pact because Kellhus speaks of it before going full on Ghost rider.
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Oh just noting it, don't worry about me. Its more funny than anything else. We're left with what Bakker gave us lol. The Darkness Globules that Come Before.
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There's nothing wrong with globules.
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None of it makes a lot of sense to me. The book refers to these jet black globules obscuring Kellhus but Malowebi can see Kellhus' features, expressions, and lips moving. It's also strange to me that Kellhus and Cnauir continue talking like their usual selves, in their own distinct manner and vocabulary, even as possession is taking place. Maybe the part about four brothers as four horns goring the world as a fruit and reaping the anguish they sow sounds like Ajokli, I guess. To top it all off, you have Kellhus saying "I have struck treaties with the Pit" and Bakker saying "Kellhus has not struck treaties with the pit."
I think that's part of my frustration, nothing seems consequential or cohesive anymore, it just kinda is because, well, fuck it.
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"I have struck treaties with the Pit" and Bakker saying "Kellhus has not struck treaties with the pit."
Amen. And reading that, to me, I think thats Kellhus speaking not Ajokli. Because right before that he talks about mastering the Daimos and plumbing the depths of hell.
And, that sir blows my mind when Bakker says no treaties were struck and he doesn't see how people got that. Really I wish Bakker wouldn't do Q&A's and AMA's for thus very reason. He gets himself in tangled messes. Its like he's trying to play cute or something. He has dialogue say treaties were struck, but when asked, no, no treaties struck. "How in the fuck did you dimwitted, weak readers not understand that?". Sorry, he has always been very frustrating to me when answering questions.
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I think that's part of my frustration, nothing seems consequential or cohesive anymore, it just kinda is because, well, fuck it.
I got the feeling when reading the GR scene and the dialogue, that Bakker didn't know how to make it plausible. It is kinda dues ex machine, in a way. The dialogue between the Mutilated is great, and Shae is the Mutilated that's the boat we missed. Its a a lot clearer to me when I reread it. His Ajokli execution, in my eyes, was done very poorly. Some of the poorest writing of the series to be honest.
Subsumed: include or absorb (something) in something else.
Shae was absorbed into the Mutilated. And what's funny here is the dialogue between Kellhus and the Mutilated was some of the best writing in the book. A stark contrast to his Ajokli reveal. Poorly done.
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There's nothing wrong with globules.
A- fucking - men! ;)
An awesome word, packed full of meaning, it almost has Akimbo beating out.
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Where exactly did Bakker say that Kellhus struck no deals with the pit?
There's nothing wrong with globules.
A- fucking - men! ;)
An awesome word, packed full of meaning, it almost has Akimbo beating out.
Also, what could you even use instead? "High viscosity liquid droplets" ?
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AMA on Reddit
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AMA on Reddit
Give me an exact quote ifi you don't mind, I can't find it.
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To top it all off, you have Kellhus saying "I have struck treaties with the Pit" and Bakker saying "Kellhus has not struck treaties with the pit."
"I have struck treaties with the Pit" and Bakker saying "Kellhus has not struck treaties with the pit."
...
He has dialogue say treaties were struck, but when asked, no, no treaties struck. "How in the fuck did you dimwitted, weak readers not understand that?". Sorry, he has always been very frustrating to me when answering questions.
Lol, I'm probably just repeating Past Madness but I find it infinitely more interesting to attribute that dialogue to Ajokli. It resolves this apparent readerly dissonance and yields more dramatic implications regarding Ajokli and its agency in the Outside and in Earwa.
Shae is the Mutilated that's the boat we missed.
While Somnambulist's argument about the Cants of Compulsion sways me, we don't know for sure that that's what we missed about Shauriatas. It's entirely reader invention based on Bakker's two very vague responses.
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Give me an exact quote ifi you don't mind, I can't find it.
I looked through AMA ad Q&A here and can't find where he says explicitly that there was no deal struck. Maybe its in the Westeros Q&A, you'll have to look through that as I don't venture to that negative space anymore.
It is highly inferred in both the AMA and Q&A. He says that Kellhus wasn't even aware of Ajokli's presence. That slowly Ajokli took over more and more until the GR. So, that implies in and of itself no pact. If there was a pact, Kellhus would surely know of Ajokli's coming possession. Bakker says this is not the case, several times.
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Lol, I'm probably just repeating Past Madness but I find it infinitely more interesting to attribute that dialogue to Ajokli.
Why? I'd love to hear your reasoning on that. But, that's not what the writing shows. We have dialogue coming from Kellhus that is surely Kellhus. Its the way I read it however. But, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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Lol, I'm probably just repeating Past Madness but I find it infinitely more interesting to attribute that dialogue to Ajokli.
Why? I'd love to hear your reasoning on that. But, that's not what the writing shows. We have dialogue coming from Kellhus that is surely Kellhus. Its the way I read it however. But, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Well, our past couple posts, including my yielding, were simply pinpointing when Malowebi sees the "Globules." If you go back through the thread, I attribute all dialogue by Kellhus to Ajokli after he crosses the Threshold. It's late and I'm doing a night lecture online so I'd rather not butcher or contradict my previous thoughts on the matter.
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Give me an exact quote ifi you don't mind, I can't find it.
It is highly inferred in both the AMA and Q&A. He says that Kellhus wasn't even aware of Ajokli's presence. That slowly Ajokli took over more and more until the GR. So, that implies in and of itself no pact.
I also don't remember Bakker outright saying that Kellhus struck no deals with the Outside, but I do remember this.
If there was a pact, Kellhus would surely know of Ajokli's coming possession. Bakker says this is not the case, several times.
I don't feel it's that necessary for Kellhus to know that Ajokli is essentially double-crossing him in an unforeseen way. Kellhus overestimated his own spiritual integrity, which Bakker specifically notes as a weakness of the Dunyain as a whole.
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Give me an exact quote ifi you don't mind, I can't find it.
I looked through AMA ad Q&A here and can't find where he says explicitly that there was no deal struck. Maybe its in the Westeros Q&A, you'll have to look through that as I don't venture to that negative space anymore.
It is highly inferred in both the AMA and Q&A. He says that Kellhus wasn't even aware of Ajokli's presence. That slowly Ajokli took over more and more until the GR. So, that implies in and of itself no pact. If there was a pact, Kellhus would surely know of Ajokli's coming possession. Bakker says this is not the case, several times.
Just wanted to mention, MSJ, that you seem to be the single greatest source of "pic, or it didnt happen" with regards to asking others to quote textual evidence for X or Y take on the books and then you blithely state that something that is of great important is highly inferred and then just walk away like thats cool. I have looked through the AMA and googled and whatnot and i havent found where RSB states what you says is highly inferred. I am not saying you and others are wrong but for such an important thing id like to see a quote.
RSB is his own worst enemy and frankly id rather he not show up at all in these forums (wish mostly granted) and not do any AMAs cause his answers often just piss me off. I wont say he doesnt respect his readers but there is something there, imo, that doesnt sit right w/me. Anyway, ill go back to mostly lurking but i just had to login and comment on this because it made me laugh.
And for the record as a general comment on this topic i am of the opinion that its totally Kellhus saying hte line about striking treaties w/the Pit, not Ajokli. Ajokli is truly in control and in possession of Kellhus once that giant, awesome gout of flame explodes out of the Kellhus's head. I love that part.
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Just wanted to mention, MSJ, that you seem to be the single greatest source of "pic, or it didnt happen" with regards to asking others to quote textual evidence for X or Y take on the books and then you blithely state that something that is of great important is highly inferred and then just walk away like thats cool. I have looked through the AMA and googled and whatnot and i havent found where RSB states what you says is highly inferred. I am not saying you and others are wrong but for such an important thing id like to see a quote.
Umm, Rots, Tleilaxu asked me to find him a quote..so I have no idea why you're attacking me. I think as a long time member, others will tell you I am open to a litany of theories. So you climbing up the wrong tree bud.
ETA: and when i put forth any number of theories they are always backed up with quotes from books or Q&A's.
ETAA: I'm fairly certain he did ssy there was no pact. Why not ask Bolivar who quoted it in the post above mine. I think it might be at Westeros or the Con thread. I was at work at the time and didn't have hours to search. I'm certainly not the only one who remembers that being said. I'm not blithely walking away. Everything I even found points to Bakker saying there was no pact, how is that me just letting it go?
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MSJ - i did not "attack" you. Words have meaning you know. I merely pointed out what i saw as some pretty amusing hypocrisy. You consistently demand canonical/textual support for any and all things anyone else supposes and then you throw in a "highly inferred" when you cant find the exact quote you want and move on.
I go way back also, to zombie three seas, maybe you do too, i dont know. I also dont know what difference that makes to anything.
Anyway, that is all.
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Just wanted to mention, MSJ, that you seem to be the single greatest source of "pic, or it didnt happen" with regards to asking others to quote textual evidence for X or Y take on the books and then you blithely state that something that is of great important is highly inferred and then just walk away like thats cool. I have looked through the AMA and googled and whatnot and i havent found where RSB states what you says is highly inferred. I am not saying you and others are wrong but for such an important thing id like to see a quote.
Umm, Rots, Tleilaxu asked me to find him a quote..so I have no idea why you're attacking me. I think as a long time member, others will tell you I am open to a litany of theories. So you climbing up the wrong tree bud.
ETA: and when i put forth any number of theories they are always backed up with quotes from books or Q&A's.
ETAA: I'm fairly certain he did ssy there was no pact. Why not ask Bolivar who quoted it in the post above mine. I think it might be at Westeros or the Con thread. I was at work at the time and didn't have hours to search. I'm certainly not the only one who remembers that being said. I'm not blithely walking away. Everything I even found points to Bakker saying there was no pact, how is that me just letting it go?
Making a pact doesn't exclude Ajokli tricking him.
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MSJ - i did not "attack" you. Words have meaning you know. I merely pointed out what i saw as some pretty amusing hypocrisy. You consistently demand canonical/textual support for any and all things anyone else supposes and then you throw in a "highly inferred" when you cant find the exact quote you want and move on.
I go way back also, to zombie three seas, maybe you do too, i dont know. I also dont know what difference that makes to anything.
Anyway, that is all.
Sorry, attack is the wrong word. I don't get where your claim of me demanding quotes and such comes from. Or, that I would do so more than anyone else. I know I cant remember the last time I've demanded a quote. Maybe, your right and its just something I'm blind to. Anyways, I wasn't just walking away from the demand for a quote. I tried my best to find where that was said. Like I said, I all I can find is in the AMA its highly inferred. A LOT of people seem to take it as fact, but damn if you're not right, I can't find where he actually says it outright. Ive been scouring threads, so I'm just not walking away from it...
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Making a pact doesn't exclude Ajokli tricking him.
Nor Kellhus tricking Ajokli. Because, from the text, Ajokli seems to be the one who's duped.
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Making a pact doesn't exclude Ajokli tricking him.
Nor Kellhus tricking Ajokli. Because, from the text, Ajokli seems to be the one who's duped.
That goes against what Bakker said in the AMA.
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That goes against what Bakker said in the AMA.
A lot of what Bakker say in various pla we goes against the text. My point is, if Kellhus didn't dupe Ajokli, then why did Ajokli inhabit Cnaüir and scream "Where are you Anasurimbor?". Regardless, of what Bakker says, that seems to suggest Ajokli was duped by Kellhus and didn't get his soul.
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if Kellhus didn't dupe Ajokli, then why did Ajokli inhabit Cnaüir and scream "Where are you Anasurimbor?". Regardless, of what Bakker says, that seems to suggest Ajokli was duped by Kellhus and didn't get his soul.
Doesn't have to be one or the other.
Kellhus made pacts with the pit - made deals with ciphrang, gods, whoever.
Those deals turned out to be with Ajokli (either known or unknown by Kellhus, doesn't matter), who slowly started controlling more and more of Kellhus' action the closer they got to golgotterath.
Aside, Kellhus has contingency plans. Either because knowing that making deals with entities form the Outside might not go well, or because having an answer to 'death' is just generally a good idea in his line of work, it again doesn't really matter.
I suspect Kellhus didn't know, or expect, that Ajokli was the one clouding his own actions, and didn't expect to lose full control in the Golden Room.
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A lot of what Bakker say in various pla we goes against the text. My point is, if Kellhus didn't dupe Ajokli, then why did Ajokli inhabit Cnaüir and scream "Where are you Anasurimbor?". Regardless, of what Bakker says, that seems to suggest Ajokli was duped by Kellhus and didn't get his soul.
Well, it doesn't have to be the case that Kellhus actively duped him. Ajokli could have simply just figured Kellhus soul would be his post-possession. When that didn't happen, probably because Kellhus had his soul tethered to something or other, Ajokli simply was pissed things didn't go his way. Kellhus, not really knowing how deep the Ajokli-taint ran, probably didn't actively plan to dupe him, rather just stave off damnation in the event things went bad, like Wilshire said.
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Well, it doesn't have to be the case that Kellhus actively duped him. Ajokli could have simply just figured Kellhus soul would be his post-possession. When that didn't happen, probably because Kellhus had his soul tethered to something or other, Ajokli simply was pissed things didn't go his way. Kellhus, not really knowing how deep the Ajokli-taint ran, probably didn't actively plan to dupe him, rather just stave off damnation in the event things went bad, like Wilshire said.
Why is one more likely than the other? In was simply pointing out that Ajokli didn't get what he wanted neither. We don't know if there was a pact. We don't know anything. What makes my statement or the other anymore plausible?
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Well, it doesn't have to be the case that Kellhus actively duped him. Ajokli could have simply just figured Kellhus soul would be his post-possession. When that didn't happen, probably because Kellhus had his soul tethered to something or other, Ajokli simply was pissed things didn't go his way. Kellhus, not really knowing how deep the Ajokli-taint ran, probably didn't actively plan to dupe him, rather just stave off damnation in the event things went bad, like Wilshire said.
Why is one more likely than the other? In was simply pointing out that Ajokli didn't get what he wanted neither. We don't know if there was a pact. We don't know anything. What makes my statement or the other anymore plausible?
Well, considering what Bakker said, that Kellhus didn't actually know about the level of Ajokli-possession that was taking place, it would seem improbable that he was actively planning against just such a thing. Not impossible, but just not very likely. Given that, he was probably planning against just a plain-old-fashion death he might face though, which just so happened to be very useful in what actually did happen.
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Well, it doesn't have to be the case that Kellhus actively duped him. Ajokli could have simply just figured Kellhus soul would be his post-possession. When that didn't happen, probably because Kellhus had his soul tethered to something or other, Ajokli simply was pissed things didn't go his way. Kellhus, not really knowing how deep the Ajokli-taint ran, probably didn't actively plan to dupe him, rather just stave off damnation in the event things went bad, like Wilshire said.
Why is one more likely than the other? In was simply pointing out that Ajokli didn't get what he wanted neither. We don't know if there was a pact. We don't know anything. What makes my statement or the other anymore plausible?
The reason Ajokli didn't get what he wanted is because the No-God short-circuited him.
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Its all pretty repetitive. Kellhus's plan failed because he wasn't all powerful and actually missed very important things. That thing was Ajokli in some manner. Ajokli, in his turn, didn't execute his plan because he missed something. That thing was probably Kelmomas/No-God.
The readers are primed to see things as omnipotent by Bakker, and then he tears them down without ceremony.
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Wilshire, did Bakker say anywhere that there was no pact in definitive terms? What you say makes that assumption, the AMA makes it sound like there was no deal. But, has Bakker ever said it?
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Uh, not that i recall, but I've got a poor memory. Even if he did Bakker's post-text words are confusing at best, especially in this past year, so its easy to misinterpret even a handful of words.
I should probably make a whole thread on contextualizing Bakker's comments. In short, I suspect his comments are akin to Akka's dreams. Not only what he says should be taken into account, but also the when he made the comment (what was happening publication wise, personal life, etc.), and perhaps most importantly where they happened at (here, reddit, interview, etc.). All these things, and more, influence what they might mean.
But I really wasn't recalling, one way or the other, Bakker's comments. Just pointing out what I see as a major story trope.
I don't think its up for debate that Kellhus was influence by some darkness he didn't know about. It seems pretty clear to me that this darkness was Ajokli, since I don't see any other entity as making sense from a plot/story/worldbuilding standpoint. Other arguments can be made of course, I just personally don't find them compelling.
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No, no, no. I have no qualms with your assessment. Its just Rots called me out for saying there was no pact. The "quote fiasco" I've come to call it...
From the text, I think their was a pact, and that's what we see in TGO going down in the Head on a pole scene. So, that's why I tend to ignore Bakker's comments. Textually a pact makes sense, unless, those scenes from TGO are as the Reddit posted says, post Kellhus salting.
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But I really wasn't recalling, one way or the other, Bakker's comments. Just pointing out what I see as a major story trope.
I don't think its up for debate that Kellhus was influence by some darkness he didn't know about. It seems pretty clear to me that this darkness was Ajokli, since I don't see any other entity as making sense from a plot/story/worldbuilding standpoint. Other arguments can be made of course, I just personally don't find them compelling.
Oh I agree. Its just from the dialogue in the Golden Room, you can take it that there was a pact. I have no doubt Ajokli was the one influencing him. He even says that he doesn't trust the voices, which lends itself to Kellhus having contingencies in place.
Not only does Bakker's comments contradict the text, the text does the same. Very hard to parse anything about who knew what and who planned for what, you know?
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Yeah for sure. I think we are approaching the end of usefulness for these kinds of overarching 'what really happened' type questions - at least for those who have been participating lol.
Probably better to start threads that go with a list of assumptions and then talk about how that would affect the world if true.
Like: Assuming everything Bakker has said is factual, then the final scene of TUC plays out like X. Discuss. :P. Reason being that a lot of the assumptions have series wide implications and its easy to talk in circles.
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I agree. When you have author contradicting text, text contradicting text and author comments contradicting author comments...its kinda f****** hard to figure out just what happened.