The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:43:37 pm

Title: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:43:37 pm
Quote from: Jorge
Something has been bugging me for a while.

There are scenes in the text that imply that Seswatha was having an affair with Anasurimbor's queen at some point. The implication is that some part of the Anasurimbor lineage might actually be his line (and it is heavily implied Nau-Cayuti is actually his son). However, Nau-Cayuti presumably dies before having children, and Kellhus can trace his lineage back to Celmomas II through Ganrelka II.

However, if Seswatha was getting it on with the king's consorts at various points, who says that every Anasurimbor character we've met thus far isn't actually his descendant? It boils down to the question: who was Ganrelka II's father?
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:43:43 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Funny enough, when I started reading the series, I plied my brain for ages wondering who the hell Ganrelka is. The timelines, for whatever reason, didn't mesh well in my head. I always had the feeling he's either one of the Princes or maybe a brother? But that doesn't keep either, because his uncle, who lead an assault on Golgotterath's gates, hung himself in the prologue of TDTCB. So who the hell is the uncle? Celmomas's brother? Maybe there's something I've missed in the odd (to my eyes) lineage.

As for Seswatha and Anasurimbor's wife, I'd say the scenes with him and her were a bit more than implied. What with all the bowing and passion.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:43:50 pm
Quote from: Jorge
Quote from: Sideris
As for Seswatha and Anasurimbor's wife, I'd say the scenes with him and her were a bit more than implied. What with all the bowing and passion.

Except it was a dream. I think the appendix says that sometimes the dreams are contradictory.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:43:57 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I think Ganrelka is Celmomas' nephew.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:03 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Contradictory perhaps, but hasn't it been implied more and more that Akka is walking Seswatha's footsteps to a T? More so than any before.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:09 pm
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Welcome to the glories on infidelity, from which no part of the human race is exempt.  Statistically, there's an 80 to 90 percent chance that someone's father is the guy who is supposed to be the father.  Obviously, maternity is easier to firmly establish.  The Dunyain might have better than usual ways of confirming paternity, due to their breeding program, but that's irrelevant.

It's a relatively small population that's been isolated and breeding only with itself.  Given the amount of time involved, all of them carry Anasurimbor blood.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:16 pm
Quote from: Madness
I think there are two issues here, CC. Firstly, do all Anasurimbor carry Nonmen blood? Secondly, were any of the Anasurimbor of the Few before Seswatha's cuckoldry?
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:22 pm
Quote from: Jorge
Quote from: Madness
I think there are two issues here, CC. Firstly, do all Anasurimbor carry Nonmen blood? Secondly, were any of the Anasurimbor of the Few before Seswatha's cuckoldry?

That second question is particularly important, since it seems like a partially hereditary ability. If there were no Anasurimbor Few before Seswatha, then we can assume that anyone bearing the name after Genrelka II is actually a descendant of Seswatha.

Quote from: lockesnow
I think Ganrelka is Celmomas' nephew.

Anyone got a citation for that? If it's true, then my crackpot theory about Kellhus being a direct descendant of Seswatha is probably false.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:29 pm
Quote from: Madness
Well, the Quya as a social caste is specifically supposed to denote heredity status as the Few - heredity is a hard word to shoe horn into a sentence :S. It's from a Bakker quote on the old Three Seas, I'll try and find it.

Arguably, there might exist a Quya who is hereditary of a pedigree going back to the first Nonmen. Perhaps, this generational stacking has an effect - perhaps on lowered learning curve, innate ability?
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:36 pm
Quote from: Madness
Also, another thought. The Anasurimbor who survives the Dunyain is Ganrelka's bastard. No info on the Nameless Anasurimbor's mother, eh?
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:44 pm
Quote from: Sideris
I half wondered if it was the concubine's child. He wouldn't necessarily be a direct heir then, would he? But we know so little of the minutiae of Kuniuric succession. :P
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:44:50 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: lockesnow
I think Ganrelka is Celmomas' nephew.

Anyone got a citation for that? If it's true, then my crackpot theory about Kellhus being a direct descendant of Seswatha is probably false.


Quote
Months earlier, Anasurimbor Ganrelka II, High King of Kuniüri, had fled to Ishual with the remnants of his household.

Quote
1408 - Anasûrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I defeats Scintya, seizes the Ur-Throne in Trysë and declares himself the first High King of Kûniüri, at age 30.[72]
1556 - Anasûrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I dies at age 178, his long life reputedly the result of the Nonman blood in his veins. In the 148 years of his reign, he had extended Kûniüri to the Yimelati Mountains in the north, to the westernmost coasts of the Cerish Sea in the east, to Sakarpus in the south, and to the Demua Mountains in the west. At his death, he divided this empire between his sons, creating Aörsi and Sheneor in addition to Kûniüri proper

2056 - Anasûrimbor Mygella, Hero-King of Aörsi, whose deeds are recounted in The Sagas, is born.[87]
2089 - Anasûrimbor Celmomas II, last High King of Kûniüri, is born.[88] Seswatha, founder of the School of Mandate, is born to a caste-menial Trysean bronzesmith.[89]
2092 - Anasûrimbor Nimeric, High King of ancient Aörsi before its destruction in the Apocalypse, is born.[90]
2104 - At age 15, Seswatha becomes the youngest sorcerer of rank in the history of the Sohonc.[92] Anasûrimbor Ganrelka II, successor of Celmomas II and last reigning High King of Kûniüri, is born.[93]
2109 - Anaxophus V, Kyranean High King, is born.[94]
2111 - Anasûrimbor Mygella, famed Hero-King of Aörsi, dies at age 46.[95]
2119 - Anasûrimbor Nau-Cayûti, youngest son of Anasûrimbor Celmomas II and his most prized wife Sharal, is born. Legends have long circulated that Nau-Cayûti was in fact Seswatha’s son.[98]
2123 - Nonmen Siqu inform the Grandmaster of the Sohonc that the Mangaecca, or Consult as they had come to be called, had uncovered lost Inchoroi secrets that would lead to the world’s destruction. Seswatha in turn convinced Anasûrimbor Celmomas to declare war on Golgotterath, known as the Great Ordeal.[99]

I was originally going to claim that Ganrelka descended from either Mygella or from Nimeric. I was going to say Nimeric because of the way he fell out with the ordeal (it is likely Nimeric's chorae/pouch that Sorweel is carrying), it would have made sense for him to send his heir to Ishual.  Ganrelka is high king of Kuniuri not of the other two regions, I was going to argue that he was named high king after all the other anasurimbor had died, but I think it looks like he is Celmomas' son.  So I retract the previous claim he's a nephew.

Look at the timeline, Ganrelka is born the same year that Seswatha ascends to a notable position.  Presumably, Celmomas began Ishual's construction at this point.  He may have been fearful for his heir, he may have suddenly given credence to worries about the consult now that he was a father and subject to new fatherly emotions, he may have decided that raising his heir away from court would protect him from his royal relatives and possibly siblings?[/quote]
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:09 pm
Quote from: Madness
Not my quote, lockesnow - Jorge's.

But wicked insight on Ganrelka as Celmomas' heir. You just blew my mind.

Lol, makes me think of that battle you and I were called to engage in of all things Earwa.

Maybe Ganrelka too is Seswatha's son.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:16 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
If Ganrelka is also Seswatha's son he would have been conceived when Ses was 14 and before Seswatha ascended as a sorcerer of rank.  I think the fact that Seswatha ascends and Celmomas has an heir in the same year are meant to indicate that Ganrelka is legitimately Celmomas' son.

[edit]oh, I wasn't paying attention to the years of birth for Celmomas.  He and Seswatha were born the same year.  While it isn't unreasonable that a prince would be married off at 13 and produce an heir within a few years, I think it may be more likely that Ganrelka is Celmomas' little brother.    That would make Ganrelka's bastard Celmomas' nephew, so maybe I was right in the first place.

Crackpot, we know that Celmo had a twin that died in childbirth, but what if the weak child was 'exposed' in order to kill it.  Only they didn't kill it, they pulled a moses and gave the child to a peasant craftsman to raise and thus we have Seswatha, Celmomas' brother/twin all along.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:22 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Crackpot: Cue Game of Thrones esque plot point: "No, my lord, they children do not have black hair...trick of genetics, haha! Ha...ha...I'm your best bud, right?"
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:29 pm
Quote from: Madness
Ironic. It was exactly Martin's Soap Opera take on Fantasy that turned me off his writing half-way through the second book.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:35 pm
Quote from: Sideris
It certainly livened up the rather dry riverbed most fantasy was at the time. I wholly understand why it's popular. I won't lie, I've read the books. I enjoy them as much as Bakker.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:41 pm
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Being one of the Few is only partially a matter of genetics and everyone has two parents.  The traits the Dunyain select for are also traits of the Few and their training tends to develop the necessary mental skills for those traits to express in being able to perceive the onta.  Eight percent of everyone in Asia is a descendent of Genghis Khan and statistically, everyone in western Europe is likely a descendent of Charlemagne in one way or another.  Don't over focus on direct descent.  Everyone has two parents and the Dunyain have been selectively breeding a small population for two thousand years in isolation.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:47 pm
Quote from: Jorge
Sideris wrote:
"I enjoy them as much as Bakker."

I used to, but the fifth book was... ugh. Here's hoping number 6 is truly amazing.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:45:54 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Further to Cc's points, human sorcerers aren't generally allowed to marry or breed and witches were persecuted so much that status as one of the few is highly unlikely to be geneticly dependent.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:00 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Recessives? People hiding or refusing to train their talents? Still plenty of ways for it to spread. Besides, thought that sorcerers visiting prostitutes was fine, just no wives or mistresses. Unless whore shells are pretty much universal, I'd imagine a bastard or two has been left.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:06 pm
Quote from: Madness
Mimara and Esmenet both had whores shells. It's almost like a workplace necessity. Pregnancies are fetishes, they don't pay any bills.

I do like the idea of Recessives and everyone seems to forget the College of Luthymae (sp?), a sect within the Thousand Temples made up of the Few who want to narc for God.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:12 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
I'd argue that if sorcery genes were sex linked or managed to hop chromosomes to become sex linked, that women would be far more likely to be among the few than men because until very recently there simple were no women sorcerers, and therefore no taboos about marriage and concubines to prevent spread of said genes.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:18 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
I bought the first of Martins books, so I wouldn't be as much of a hypocrit posting on westeros. It felt a bit like going to bourbon and coke...after absinthe. After all, absinthe makes the heart grow fonder...

But seriously, I wouldn't mind the capacity to write something like Martins first book. I tried, but the character started ignoring the plot...
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:25 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Here's Scott's reply to the question of why Moe and Kell are both of the few (from three seas):
Quote
The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:32 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Sorcery being heritable is pretty much required for the Inchoroi to have successfully grafted it, soScott's answer makes sense.

Quote from: Callan S.
But seriously, I wouldn't mind the capacity to write something like Martins first book. I tried, but the character started ignoring the plot...
From what I understand Martin prefers to write organically anyway. If the character starts ignoring the plot, try following the character to see where he/she/it finds a new one.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:40 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: The Sharmat
Sorcery being heritable is pretty much required for the Inchoroi to have successfully grafted it

I'm not sure about this assumption. I had envisioned grafting more as the Inchoroi attempting genus-wide genomics on finite populations. So a number of biologically apt candidates for the graft of "experiencing-the-onta" get into a chamber, get gassed or what have you, and then the graft - biogenetic re-sequencing - either takes or it kills them?
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:46 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
If they graft via genetic engineering then sorcery is a trait that is genetically determined, therefore subject to heredity.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:53 pm
Quote from: Curethan
I don't think so Sharmat.
 Aurang's POV, TTTpg 224(hardback)
Quote
Ah, the raucous glory of that age! He had been young then, before the accretions of graft after graft had sapped his monumental frame.
Suggests its more like gene therapy.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:46:58 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
I don't see how that contradicts what I said at all.

Edit: Unless you're considering somatic cell gene therapy as something outside the label of genetic engineering?
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:47:06 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Can't say that I know that much about it Sharmat.
I was assuming genetic engineering meant adding traits over successive generations because of the reference to heredity.
Apologies.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 06:47:11 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
No, that would be selective breeding...which is technically a very primitive form of genetic engineering. Apologies for the confusion. I merely meant that the sorcery trait had to have a genetic or epigenetic basis because it was a heritable trait.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: mrganondorf on May 24, 2014, 01:09:48 pm
- insofar as seswatha might belong to kellhus parentage AND that seswatha might have started some breeding lines outside of atyersus, kellhus and akka could be distant cousins?
- what is madness talking about on p. 1 about generational stacking?
- what if ieva conceived after laying with NC for the last time?
- that whore's shells would be universal strikes me as a neat idea--think of the long term demographic impact!
- i don't understand callan's point on p. 2 about sorcery being heritable and the inchoroi getting it
- crackpot: if it's plausible to think that some seswatha blood is in the anasurimbor line, is it plausible to think that some anasurimbor is in the seswatha line?  anasurimbor -> seswathatha -> bastards of atyersus -> akka, the last scion?
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: Wilshire on May 25, 2014, 03:23:05 am
Generational stacking I think is a referanced with the heritability of the Few's ability to do magic. I think the intent was to suggested that one with a lot of Quya/schoolmen blood would be a better sorcerer.

As for the Inchoroi, the Tekne works by genetic manipulations. If the Inchoroi where able to figure out how to splice sorcery into their genome, then it simply must be a heritable trait.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 25, 2014, 05:12:46 am
As for the Inchoroi, the Tekne works by genetic manipulations.

That is an assumption that fails to explain the weapons of light, the inverse fire and space travel. 

I think perhaps the Tekne is a different form of magic than sorcery but still non-mundane.  Some type of magical 'nanites' that proliferate and change self-similar patterns in complex fractal sets; corrupting form without accessing the power of meaning from the outside.

(You can use the Asimov definition of magic here if you want)
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: Wilshire on May 25, 2014, 04:23:52 pm
I don't think the Tekne need describe everything that the inchoroi do/have. Tekne is used to their genetic manipulations, but the other things you mentioned are just technology that any space faring civilization would have.
Title: Re: Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 26, 2014, 02:15:18 am
Fair point, pretty nebulous thing to speculate on -  we know less about the laws of physics and biology in the Earwaverse than we do about their metaphysics.
I'm getting sidetracked on it anyway.  Might move my related thoughts to another thread later.