The Second Apocalypse

Miscellaneous Chatter => The Forum of Interesting Things => Topic started by: Francis Buck on January 28, 2014, 10:46:34 pm

Title: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on January 28, 2014, 10:46:34 pm
For starters, the show is just plain awesome. Amazing acting, great story (so far anyway, it's only the third episode), absolutely stunning cinematography, the list goes on.

But, as others have noted on Westeros, some of the stuff that Matthew McConaughey's character says sounds like it's right out of Neuropath or Disciple or something.

Some quotes:

"People... I have seen the finale of thousands of lives man. Young, old, each one was so sure of their realness. That their sensory experience constituted a unique individual. Purpose, meaning. So certain that they were more than a biological puppet. Truth wills out, everybody sees once the strings are cut off all down."

"The hubris it must take to yank a soul out of non=existence, into this, meat. And to force a life into this, thresher." (in regards to having children).

"I was just a regular type dude. With a big ass dick."

So yeah, you people should start watching it.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2014, 10:56:04 pm
Matthew McConaughey's character says sounds like it's right out of Neuropath or Disciple or something.

You had me at MM. You should have also mentioned Woody Harrelson.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on January 28, 2014, 11:02:26 pm
Matthew McConaughey's character says sounds like it's right out of Neuropath or Disciple or something.

You had me at MM. You should have also mentioned Woody Harrelson.

Oh yeah, Harrelson is amazing in the show as well. He kind of gets overshadowed a bit by MM's incredible performance and fascinating character, but WH got some time to shine in the last episode.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2014, 11:25:02 pm
I want very much to watch it tonight but I find not studying for tomorrow's test to watch a show incompatible inside. However, not studying to waste time here...

Don't put me in rehab, Wilshire.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Somnambulist on January 28, 2014, 11:57:48 pm
Love this show.  Excellent on every level.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Garet Jax on January 28, 2014, 11:58:22 pm
Matthew McConaughey's character says sounds like it's right out of Neuropath or Disciple or something.

You had me at MM. You should have also mentioned Woody Harrelson.

I love me some MM.  I guess a little stealing onto others HBO Go is at hand.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 12:37:09 am
Yeah, I watched about 10 minutes before I came out to the corner coffee shop to study. Pretty good.

Oh - how I don't even miss you Tim Horton's (as much as I had some of your crackmeth-oil this afternoon when class was so close).
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 06:11:01 pm
"It's all one ghetto, man - a giant gutter in outer space."

"Everybody's nobody."

Honestly, this whole monologue in the car is a-mazing.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on January 31, 2014, 04:35:16 am
Yeah - I'm a fan. Too bad now I'm caught up. But there is some sweet music in these episodes :)).
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on January 31, 2014, 08:07:13 am
Yeah the music's awesome in this show, I was so pumped when The Black Angels came on at the end of first episode.

And that fucking cliffhanger on episode three, only to be faced with a TWO WEEK wait. Infuriating.

I've re-watched every episode so far now, and man I know this show's going to be rewatchable something fierce when it's all said and done. There are so many little easter eggs and hidden stuff, and that's without knowing how it all ends.

The wait between episodes for this show has inspired to finally start watching Twin Peaks as well, as I've heard people make some comparisons to it (and I've been hearing how great the show was for years -- it's kinda one of the last of the Great TV Dramas people typically list that I haven't seen. I'm a big David Lynch fan already, so it's been a long time coming).
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Royce on January 31, 2014, 10:44:40 am
This show is great:) I envy you that you have not seen Twin Peaks yet FB, that might be my favorite of all time. It is pretty far fetched, especially about halfway out and in. Well worth it though. I think the only one that compares to be named alongside Twin Peaks is Carnivale, although that one was taken off just when it started to look very interesting. One of the truly big mistakes IMO.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on January 31, 2014, 01:21:31 pm
I would very much appreciate it if the True Detective people could get together and just do Neuropath and Disciple real quick ;) - they would have a keen eye for Bakker's worlds.

T. Bone Burnett is awesome. I can't wait for the soundtrack. Very reminiscent (not the style) of Sons of Anarchy and their solid musical choices over the years.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on January 31, 2014, 04:57:41 pm
I've been watching supplementary HBO material. This show is going to get action-y!

Next episode looks like it blows the proportionate of the show to a-nother level.

EDIT: So good. I'm liking everything I hear from this director and writer - like shooting on film!

EDIT: And Laroy from Sons playing one of the interviewing detectives. And Freeman from the Wire.

EDIT: Lmao - just realized the other interviewing detective is Brother Mouzone from the Wire.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Royce on January 31, 2014, 08:52:28 pm
Quote
EDIT: Lmao - just realized the other interviewing detective is Brother Mouzone from the Wire.

Good catch:)  The assassin!
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Srancy on January 31, 2014, 11:15:42 pm
Is anyone else thinking Woody's little daughter is the killer?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 01, 2014, 01:03:19 am
Lol - Hi Srancy :).

I feel like Hart's daughter has had interaction with the killer. I feel like Laroy and Brother Mouzone suspect that Cohle is the original killer, though I think Cohle is exactly what he says he is, not a killer.

I also think that this early on we don't have enough evidence to really speculate - ESPECIALLY because of the epic level violence that happens next episode. The lawnmower man theory on Westeros seems too obvious. And the whole show already gives me the History of Violence vibe so 7th/8th episode bombshell about Cohle's past that reframe everything are far more than likely.

To be honest, I almost get a Memento-feel from Cohle - or Thomas in Neuropath, Cnaiur in TTT, Nonmen; forgetting to remember something.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 03, 2014, 10:35:02 pm
So I read Nic Pizzolatto's debut (and I believe only) novel, Galveston. Bought the Kindle copy (it's currently $2.99 in the U.S.) around eight at night, finished it by four in the morning (I'm currently recovering from minor surgery so I have some free time). It hooked me instantly, it's a quick and easy read, and I thought it was quite good. Not mind-blowing or anything, but extremely solid with a few flashes of greatness.  There were many similarities to True Detective. It's set in the south, it has a rather bleak tone/story, and the characters/plot was actually quite stereotypical on the surface, yet he adds incredible depth and realness to the characters and the execution of the story in general makes the cliche veneer a positive quality. Just like True Detective, the two main characters are something we've seen a million times before, but their depth and psychology is heavily explored in great way. The novel honestly gave me a great confidence that we're just seeing the tip of the ice-berg with True Detective, and it's really going to be something special.

It's funny too because the way Pizzolatto describes the landscape of the different states is like a prose version of the imagery we see in TD. After reading this I have no doubt that he must've had an enormous influence on cinematography (which really isn't also common with writers in filmmaking --I know they cite him as the creator of the show, but is he basically the showrunner or co-showrunner of it with heavy creative control?).

I highly suggest that anyone who likes TD to give Galveston a try, at least the sample. It's a steal at $2.99.

Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Davias on February 03, 2014, 10:44:03 pm
Ok, now I have watched the first episode and I must say, I absolutely LOVE the interaction between the two main characters. And the dialogue in the car was fantastic. At first glance it seems like a traditional detective-crime series, but I am sure there will be a few surprises in the future.
I haven't watched a HBO series in english in the last few months, except the last season of Boardwalk Empire and I am already curious for the next episode.
I had a little bit of trouble, understanding the whole talking in the first episode, maybe my english isn't as good, as I thought ;), but I didn't remember having much problems with the dialogues in Boardwalk Empire.
Anyway, a good start and the series has definitively some potential.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 03, 2014, 11:03:36 pm
Dude, English is my first language and I have hard time hearing/understanding what they're saying sometimes. They have strong accents and there's a large amount of Southern colloquialisms and idioms. I've actually started putting close-captions on during re-watches so I can adsorb it all (especially since the dialogue is so deep and meticulous).
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: jamesA01 on February 03, 2014, 11:24:31 pm
I would very much appreciate it if the True Detective people could get together and just do Neuropath and Disciple real quick ;) - they would have a keen eye for Bakker's worlds.

T. Bone Burnett is awesome. I can't wait for the soundtrack. Very reminiscent (not the style) of Sons of Anarchy and their solid musical choices over the years.

It's possible. True Detective is an anthology show, and next season will have a different plot with different actors. Considering that its ratings have been the 2nd best HBO has had in 4 years, the idea of a bleak psychological crime drama being recognized as a hot commodity by the suits is almost certain. If I was Bakker, I would be raving about True Detectives ratings "you think THIS stuff is dark? wait till you see what i've got up my sleeve..."
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 03, 2014, 11:32:17 pm
The idea of an adaptation of Neuropath or Disciple of the Dog by Nic Pizzolatto and Cary Fukunaga makes me rock hard.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 06, 2014, 11:26:03 am
So I read Nic Pizzolatto's debut (and I believe only) novel, Galveston. Bought the Kindle copy (it's currently $2.99 in the U.S.) around eight at night, finished it by four in the morning (I'm currently recovering from minor surgery so I have some free time). It hooked me instantly, it's a quick and easy read, and I thought it was quite good. Not mind-blowing or anything, but extremely solid with a few flashes of greatness.  There were many similarities to True Detective. It's set in the south, it has a rather bleak tone/story, and the characters/plot was actually quite stereotypical on the surface, yet he adds incredible depth and realness to the characters and the execution of the story in general makes the cliche veneer a positive quality. Just like True Detective, the two main characters are something we've seen a million times before, but their depth and psychology is heavily explored in great way. The novel honestly gave me a great confidence that we're just seeing the tip of the ice-berg with True Detective, and it's really going to be something special.

I had heard he wrote a book. I'll be interested to cop it when I can justify reading more leisurely.

It's possible. True Detective is an anthology show, and next season will have a different plot with different actors. Considering that its ratings have been the 2nd best HBO has had in 4 years, the idea of a bleak psychological crime drama being recognized as a hot commodity by the suits is almost certain. If I was Bakker, I would be raving about True Detectives ratings "you think THIS stuff is dark? wait till you see what i've got up my sleeve..."

Lmao - Bakker should just sub in for Pizzolatto next season ;). I almost shouted Neuropath when the old lady starts rolling her head and talking about living with aneurysms or whichever-y - but my roommates were less interested in it than I ;).

The idea of an adaptation of Neuropath or Disciple of the Dog by Nic Pizzolatto and Cary Fukunaga makes me rock hard.

They are quite the duo.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 09, 2014, 06:32:24 pm
TONIGHT! So excited. Who else will be watching as it airs?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 09, 2014, 07:32:46 pm
Probably not as it airs. Honestly, maybe not even tonight. But Future Madness will watch it sometime as soon as possible.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Somnambulist on February 10, 2014, 01:01:00 am
TONIGHT! So excited. Who else will be watching as it airs?

I will.  Can't wait to see this episode.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 10, 2014, 03:22:06 am
That may seriously have been one of the best episodes of any series I have ever seen, period. I was having heart-palpitations.

The build-up, the characters, the score, cinematography, choreography, everything was nuts. I mean that shot at least five minutes, right?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Somnambulist on February 10, 2014, 04:10:03 am
Definitely tense.  The show never ceases to deliver the goods.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Wic on February 10, 2014, 07:42:36 am
Friggin' amazing.  At first I was a little disappointed that spooky machete lunatic wasn't involved, but jeeeeezus did this episode blow my mind.  I read that last shot was 6 minutes.

Not only are the characters so deep, even their interactions just layer on each other, episode after episode.  The contrast of Cohle's nihilistic honesty against Hart's self-delusion and hypocrisy is fantastic.

Also, saw this on the internet.  Those girls are giving me the creeps.
http://i.imgur.com/ZUbHlHt.png
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Royce on February 10, 2014, 08:17:12 pm
Yeah, that episode was intense!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Somnambulist on February 10, 2014, 08:25:41 pm
It's implied that it's

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Royce on February 10, 2014, 09:21:42 pm
Yeah, I guess I should watch it again, since that accent is pretty thick:)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on February 12, 2014, 12:48:41 am
Have to admire that it keeps to genre/keeps to things the heart cares about, in how the murderer really matters when people mention the story. I can't write about murders myself - I'm kinda blocked from it somewhat like robocop is blocked from shooting OCP employees - just a rule in the way.

Not only are the characters so deep, even their interactions just layer on each other, episode after episode.  The contrast of Cohle's nihilistic honesty against Hart's self-delusion and hypocrisy is fantastic.
Is there a theme in these types of stories that characters are named in relatively transparent ways - Cold and Heart? May as well have characters name that are a variant on Callous and Academic! Still, it keeps to the roots of Aesopic fables, which is good.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 12, 2014, 01:00:55 am
I actually interpreted Cohle as Coal. So Coal and Heart. I have no clue what the intention is. I don't necessarily think there's an intention behind it at all, other than what might be called an artistic flourish? Who knows.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on February 12, 2014, 02:06:20 am
Oh, coal - like getting a lump of coal for christmas? Yeah, that probably on the money!

I'd suspect, as I alluded to with the Aesop reference, it goes down to the roots of our storytelling.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: sciborg2 on February 13, 2014, 07:36:25 am
Is the area they live in supposed to be Carcosa, or is the idea that the Lovecraftian forces -or at least themes- are seeping into the world as it marches forward technologically?

Not sure what's going on with Hart's kids if there's not an implied supernatural explanation. Maybe a huge number of people in the area are part of the cult?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 13, 2014, 12:35:45 pm
Finally watched it. Amazing.

I'm not really sure what more to say. Four more episodes. EP4 starts "Act II."
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 16, 2014, 01:09:24 pm
Interesting article from io9.

The One Literary Reference You Must Know to Appreciate ​True Detective (http://io9.com/the-one-literary-reference-you-must-know-to-appreciate-1523076497)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Wic on February 16, 2014, 05:14:15 pm
That is very interesting.  Lends credence to the idea the Cohle actually is responsible for the most recent murder, when you think about all the protagonists in Lovecraft stories that end up seeing the truth/horror they were trying to track down, losing their minds and then becoming complicit.  Alan Moore has a two-shot comic Cthulhu mythos-style called The Courtyard that, if Cohle's the new killer, somewhat parallels True Detective.

I do hope they don't introduce supernatural features to TD though.  Unless they do it really well.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 16, 2014, 06:08:33 pm
I have thoughts about this connection but:

Gutenberg: The King in Yellow (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8492)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Royce on February 16, 2014, 06:51:50 pm
Also free on kindle, if that is your drug of choice.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Srancy on February 16, 2014, 08:27:12 pm
The only issue I had with the scene were the throwaway thugs that were like B movie henchmen
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 16, 2014, 10:04:04 pm
The only issue I had with the scene were the throwaway thugs that were like B movie henchmen

Yeah, Cohle definitely turned into a little bit of a super-hero there, but the overall effect of the scene was spectacular enough that I forgave it.

So excited for tonight. The creator/writer said that episode five is his personal favorite.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Triskele on February 17, 2014, 08:29:35 am
Does anyone have any idea if Bakker had heard of The King in Yellow?


Very nice parallel to the Inverse Fire. 


I do find the concept of a play that drives people insane kind of awesomely macabre and creepy. 


Tonight's episode was great, but I don't think any of them have been anything short of that.  I do want to know who the Yellow King actually is, and I suspect we will. 

I wonder what was up with LeDoux's comment about how "it's time" or "it's happening."  I forget how he put it.  This was right before he started getting into the time stuff, but it sounded almost like he believed in a prophecy.  Made me wonder if it's anything to do with his cult, but it could have just fit in with his whole belief about how everything that happens has happened before.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 17, 2014, 02:42:58 pm
That is very interesting.  Lends credence to the idea the Cohle actually is responsible for the most recent murder, when you think about all the protagonists in Lovecraft stories that end up seeing the truth/horror they were trying to track down, losing their minds and then becoming complicit.  Alan Moore has a two-shot comic Cthulhu mythos-style called The Courtyard that, if Cohle's the new killer, somewhat parallels True Detective.

I do hope they don't introduce supernatural features to TD though.  Unless they do it really well.

I wonder what your thoughts are after the EP5. Will probably watch it tonight. +1 the bold and the "do it really well."

Does anyone have any idea if Bakker had heard of The King in Yellow?

As far as I understood it, Bakker was literature major who made the jump to philosophy (literature studies often include most of the philosophic texts but they aren't constrained to those in their studies - a couple friends and I often debate the history, philosophy, literature relation and their intimate intertwining). Possible, Trisk.

I do find the concept of a play that drives people insane kind of awesomely macabre and creepy. 

Yeah, I really enjoy the thoughts that they are going Lovecraft with it.

Tonight's episode was great, but I don't think any of them have been anything short of that.  I do want to know who the Yellow King actually is, and I suspect we will. 

I wonder what was up with LeDoux's comment about how "it's time" or "it's happening."  I forget how he put it.  This was right before he started getting into the time stuff, but it sounded almost like he believed in a prophecy.  Made me wonder if it's anything to do with his cult, but it could have just fit in with his whole belief about how everything that happens has happened before.

Must not respond until I see episode ;).

The only issue I had with the scene were the throwaway thugs that were like B movie henchmen

Yeah, Cohle definitely turned into a little bit of a super-hero there, but the overall effect of the scene was spectacular enough that I forgave it.

I was actually giving this a lot of thought watching E4. I'm actually probably going to do some reading about it. Because it is a marvel that an "undercover officer" can tolerate all that neural debauchery and still maintain, what I'll call until I learn otherwise, the 'undercover neural network,' which basically allows for that clarity of thought that enables Cohle to grab Ginger and navigate the fucking warzone at the end to get to Hart's car, despite being high as a kite and all the neural affectations that entails.

I actually found another interesting article last night... oh, gall... I shouldn't have even looked for it. Found out some spoilers for last night's EP :(.

So excited for tonight. The creator/writer said that episode five is his personal favorite.

Given what I just read, I am even more curious now.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Wic on February 17, 2014, 03:22:13 pm

I wonder what your thoughts are after the EP5. Will probably watch it tonight. +1 the bold and the "do it really well."
I no longer suspect Cohle has switched sides even a little bit.  He's playing a longer con.  I also think it's getting much closer to Lovecraftian.  This is a quote from the writer about Cohle's monologue in this episode, doesn't reveal much, but I'll hide it anyway:
(click to show/hide)
That, along with the King in Yellow being a fictional play within a collection of fictional stories...Jesus.

Every episode makes me say 'this was the best episode', but...this was totally the best episode.
Quote from: Triskele
I wonder what was up with LeDoux's comment about how "it's time" or "it's happening."  I forget how he put it.  This was right before he started getting into the time stuff, but it sounded almost like he believed in a prophecy.  Made me wonder if it's anything to do with his cult, but it could have just fit in with his whole belief about how everything that happens has happened before.
I think it might give the appearance of something prophetic, but will be revealed (or implied) that everything was very mundane - the powers that be recognized that he was going to find Ledoux, he was made to be a sacrifice ('don't worry, my son, you'll come back around...'), everyone deeply involved is utterly devout, totally manipulated.  'It's time' possibly means he knew that if the detectives found him, the cult is going to take off the gloves and go after them savagely.  Maybe they even do try to turn Cohle, thinking a man with nothing left is an easy mark for a cult, but I can't imagine what they do with Marty's family to break him.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: sciborg2 on February 17, 2014, 06:30:45 pm
I love the introduction of Cohle the Trickster.

Part of that is him maybe over-doing his nihilist act for the two black detectives, but I also think Cohle might be seen as a liminal figure striding between nihilism and conviction.

(Which I'd say makes him one of the Second Apocalypse gang. ;D)

On Westeros Trisk posted a great article that Cohle has walked up to the Fourth Wall and waved without breaking through. Another example of him being a liminal being.

And of course he's an outlaw in the pursuit of Justice.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 17, 2014, 06:48:17 pm
I read some things that were talking about the show's pressing against the fourth wall. Sci, what's the link?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: sciborg2 on February 17, 2014, 07:22:33 pm
I read some things that were talking about the show's pressing against the fourth wall. Sci, what's the link?

Sorry, meant to link it when I had a moment. Here it is. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/16/true-detective-episode-5-review-the-secret-fate-of-all-life-is-the-best-episode-yet.html)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 17, 2014, 07:33:30 pm
Thanks, Sci.

This was the Article (True Detective is Changing) (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/02/-em-true-detective-em-is-changing-but-for-the-better-or-for-the-worse/283873/) I mentioned before - EP5 Spoilers.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: sciborg2 on February 17, 2014, 10:26:02 pm
Thanks, Sci.

This was the Article (True Detective is Changing) (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/02/-em-true-detective-em-is-changing-but-for-the-better-or-for-the-worse/283873/) I mentioned before - EP5 Spoilers.

Interesting takes, though some of it feels a bit off. I get the complaint about the show seemingly changing directions from calm character study to more action oriented procedural, though I don't share it. Also, I think the actual events of the episode belie that criticism...at least to some extent.

On female characters - this criticism I can better accept. I do think it's unfair to label Hart's daughter as a temptress figure. People who are sexually abused can have complicated relationships with sex. I recall an ex saying she'd previously associated sex with self-degradation. There is a challenge in noting in trying to explore this issue while advocating for sex positive stances but I accept not everything can be done in the limited space....though maybe my lack of concern is a sign of male privilege?

On the evil evangelical possibility - I've seen this complaint about evangelicals playing with devil worship or whatever, and it grates on me.

The King in Yellow is not a demon serving Lucifer, and to think like that is - IMO - reducing the scope of possible metaphysics to a needlessly Christian-centric worldview.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Wic on February 17, 2014, 11:01:20 pm

Interesting takes, though some of it feels a bit off. I get the complaint about the show seemingly changing directions from calm character study to more action oriented procedural, though I don't share it. Also, I think the actual events of the episode belie that criticism...at least to some extent.
Shift makes complete sense when you realize that the KiY play drives people mad when they start the second act (which corresponds to episode 4 in TD). :D
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 18, 2014, 12:05:11 am
Great thoughts guys. My comments from Westeros:
Most people have already aired a lot of my thoughts. I absolutely 100% believe that Cohle has been working this case off-grid since 2002. I'm assuming he got pushed out of the force after digging too deep with the Tuttle stuff. I'm not sure if Marty's in on it with Cohle. It's a possibility. I do like the idea of them working this thing together for over a decade.
 
Fucking LOVED how the Ledoux "shoot-out" played. When Marty walked out and capped Ledoux...just amazing. Totally unexpected for me. Marty may be a piece of shit in certain areas, but I do think he "means well" (just as Cohle said: The world needs bad men to keep the other bad men from the door).
 
Personally, I think that the whole Tuttle school-system is built around raising/conditioning kids to eventually become a part of this cult in some fashion -- victims and/or members. One Tuttle school has already been revealed to have connections to the cult (Lawnmower Man as Green-Eyed Spaghetti Monster, plus all the shit Cohle found at the end of the episode). The final shot showed black stars drawn on the window. I think the "black stars" may be the children conditioned by this cult. I also think Aubrey, Hart's daughter, has been a part of this without her knowing -- I even suspect she may have been molested when she was young, thus the bizarre Barbie doll scene, and the sexual drawings, and the drawing of a spiral.
 
Ultimately, I think this show is basically supposed to be a "what-if" version of the crazy Satanic-cult urban legends from the late-eighties and early-nineties. These urban myths were just that -- mostly bullshit. But this show is telling the story of it actually happening.
 
All of this brings me back to the opening shot of the first episode. A man running through a dark forest, breathing heavily. Cut to a line of fire on the horizon. Originally, I had thought this was a shot from the much talked about "hero shout", when Marty and Cohle save kids from the woods after a gunfight. Now, I think it's about the actual end of the series -- in 2013, when Cohle (and maybe Hart) track down the actual cult.
 
God I love this show.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 18, 2014, 01:59:43 am
I have more thoughts, which I will post in the morning but...

Everyone is all over this "time is a flat circle" quote. But I haven't seen mentioned (here or Westeros) that Ledoux says to Cohle that he had a dream about the two of them in "Carcosa town" together.

Also, another neat article (http://blogs.indiewire.com/criticwire/why-does-true-detective-reference-the-work-of-a-self-published-poet).
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 18, 2014, 11:47:21 am
Spoilery Thoughts as of EP5

(click to show/hide)
That, along with the King in Yellow being a fictional play within a collection of fictional stories...Jesus.

I really enjoyed that too. I really want to read his fiction but I can't justify reading a non-school text right now (the forum... is something else ;)). Pizzolatto seems to consciously utilize medium to enhance message. I'm excited about how he might leave the end of this series.

Every episode makes me say 'this was the best episode', but...this was totally the best episode.
Quote from: Triskele
I wonder what was up with LeDoux's comment about how "it's time" or "it's happening."  I forget how he put it.  This was right before he started getting into the time stuff, but it sounded almost like he believed in a prophecy.  Made me wonder if it's anything to do with his cult, but it could have just fit in with his whole belief about how everything that happens has happened before.
I think it might give the appearance of something prophetic, but will be revealed (or implied) that everything was very mundane - the powers that be recognized that he was going to find Ledoux, he was made to be a sacrifice ('don't worry, my son, you'll come back around...'), everyone deeply involved is utterly devout, totally manipulated.  'It's time' possibly means he knew that if the detectives found him, the cult is going to take off the gloves and go after them savagely.  Maybe they even do try to turn Cohle, thinking a man with nothing left is an easy mark for a cult, but I can't imagine what they do with Marty's family to break him.

I like Trisk's thought embedded in there. I like the practicality of the bold. It really just becomes an issue of which way Pizzolatto is taking it, lovecraftian or mundane.

I will note on the theme of the Yellow King and Carcosa again. Invoking a recognizable association within narrative always seems to leverage two mechanisms. On one hand it's mind-candy for those in the know, who get little shocks of recognition, and revelations for those who seek, but it can be that that particular association is necessary for a "complete reading." On the other, it's a feint something through and through, unreliable or priming inversion.

I'm only learning about this as we watch (though I'd come by Chambers by way of reading about Lovecraft before) but if invoking the Yellow King mirrors the plot then we should see "the Outside leaking in" as it were in this episode and the last. Think of it. EP4 "starts Act II." Cohle bangs a couple speed-balls, finds some coke. Not having pursued much reading yet on it, I will note that by switching from pharmaceuticals to drugs associated with his 'undercover neural network,' Cohle is priming a whole pattern of behaviors connected to that set of drug use alone, probably. But the drugs serve as an easy excuse for the incomprehensible to come.

I read some things that were talking about the show's pressing against the fourth wall. Sci, what's the link?

Sorry, meant to link it when I had a moment. Here it is. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/16/true-detective-episode-5-review-the-secret-fate-of-all-life-is-the-best-episode-yet.html)

Really enjoyed reading this again after the episode.

It is some quality writing. I really hope more is played off this concept of referencing the audience - in fact, I really hope the end of this series is tied up in the meta-fictional reading he prompts watchers for.

On female characters - this criticism I can better accept. I do think it's unfair to label Hart's daughter as a temptress figure. People who are sexually abused can have complicated relationships with sex. I recall an ex saying she'd previously associated sex with self-degradation. There is a challenge in noting in trying to explore this issue while advocating for sex positive stances but I accept not everything can be done in the limited space....though maybe my lack of concern is a sign of male privilege?

At least you are thinking about it, Sci :).

I think it's kind of messed up that gender isn't being thought about more in this day and age. It should be fairly constantly engaged. And while I don't know that Pizzolatto will spend any time on it - though how can he not, if the daughters become a focus by complicity in darkness?

On the evil evangelical possibility - I've seen this complaint about evangelicals playing with devil worship or whatever, and it grates on me.

The King in Yellow is not a demon serving Lucifer, and to think like that is - IMO - reducing the scope of possible metaphysics to a needlessly Christian-centric worldview.

Lmao. Well, I don't think that person really understands the really strange and fucked up places Pizzolatto might take us.

Shift makes complete sense when you realize that the KiY play drives people mad when they start the second act (which corresponds to episode 4 in TD). :D

+1, Wic.

Is King in Yellow short?

I absolutely 100% believe that Cohle has been working this case off-grid since 2002.

+1 but I think everyone is with you there.

I'm assuming he got pushed out of the force after digging too deep with the Tuttle stuff. I'm not sure if Marty's in on it with Cohle. It's a possibility. I do like the idea of them working this thing together for over a decade.

It is possible. Hart does seem to corroborate too much of Cohle's story for them not to have talked in almost a decade.


Fucking LOVED how the Ledoux "shoot-out" played. When Marty walked out and capped Ledoux...just amazing. Totally unexpected for me. Marty may be a piece of shit in certain areas, but I do think he "means well" (just as Cohle said: The world needs bad men to keep the other bad men from the door).

Lol - as soon as I saw Hart's face and we didn't see what he saw, I knew Ledoux was going to die.
 
Personally, I think that the whole Tuttle school-system is built around raising/conditioning kids to eventually become a part of this cult in some fashion -- victims and/or members. One Tuttle school has already been revealed to have connections to the cult (Lawnmower Man as Green-Eyed Spaghetti Monster, plus all the shit Cohle found at the end of the episode). The final shot showed black stars drawn on the window. I think the "black stars" may be the children conditioned by this cult. I also think Aubrey, Hart's daughter, has been a part of this without her knowing -- I even suspect she may have been molested when she was young, thus the bizarre Barbie doll scene, and the sexual drawings, and the drawing of a spiral.

I have the same sort of issues with this grand conspiracy angle as I read in reviews - it's complicated for eight episodes. One cult with variable power in Louisiana that have slipped notice due to scale is more believable than government coordinated abductions.

I will note that we don't know when those tokens were left in the Tuttle school. We also don't know what happened to Guy Francis off camera. Those cops in particular might have done or said some to him and he really might have had a call from his lawyer.

I just don't know where to gauge the scale. Plus the goddamn episode by episode interviews are another way for Pizzolatto to prime and influence the audience and he knows it.
 
Ultimately, I think this show is basically supposed to be a "what-if" version of the crazy Satanic-cult urban legends from the late-eighties and early-nineties. These urban myths were just that -- mostly bullshit. But this show is telling the story of it actually happening.

That isn't a bad take, though again, I share the concept echoed around that we will encounter some kind of "evil" that is incomprehensible as it exists.
 
All of this brings me back to the opening shot of the first episode. A man running through a dark forest, breathing heavily. Cut to a line of fire on the horizon. Originally, I had thought this was a shot from the much talked about "hero shout", when Marty and Cohle save kids from the woods after a gunfight. Now, I think it's about the actual end of the series -- in 2013, when Cohle (and maybe Hart) track down the actual cult.

I didn't remember that until you reminded me, FB. I actually won't rewatch the episodes until I can rewatch the first season in a marathon. I know that there are clues, etc, layered in everywhere. I did rewatch the first five minutes though - it could almost be two people crouching and walking slowly, FB.

In thinking about how this series is framed, I wonder if at the point Gilbough and Papania are interviewing Hart and Cohle it's after they've already done the deed. Perhaps.

Overall, I'm not sure where I stand. I want to plant a flag somewhere on this super/natural divide but I can't bring myself to. It's definitely a self-conscious series but self-consciously fiction or self-consciously anachronism, I can't decide.

The most interesting piece of the puzzle remains for me Ledoux's lines to Cohle. Just spent a couple minutes listening to the lines from the show because apparently you shouldn't trust what makes it online. The line I was going to quote doesn't exist - elsewhere I read it mentioned that Ledoux calls Cohle a priest but these are all the lines that Reggie says before he dies.

"It's time, isn't it? The black stars."

"Black stars rise."

"I know what happens next. I saw you in my dream. You're in Carcosa now. With me. He sees you."

"You'll do this again. Time is a flat circle."

"Sonsciniscent (?). Black God (?). Twin (?)" (these lines are whispered by Reggie as Cohle tells Dewall to freeze and are mostly indecipherable - best I could do; they could be electronically tampered with.)

"Black stars."

"(Three Indecipherable Words)" (these lines are also whispered by Reggie as Hart walks out of the building to cap him - last words Reggie says).

What does it mean?!

Lol - to give insight into Madness here are some of the more interesting tabs I have open after reading through and responding to this post:

True Detective Review: "The Secret Fate of All Life" (Episode 1.05) (http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/02/true-detective-review-the-secret-fate-of-all-life.html) [PASTE mag]
True Detective Season 1: Inside the Episode #5 (HBO) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92f3nV6702E&feature=youtube_gdata_player) [Pizzolatto actually confirms the connection of King in Yellow - I really feel like I should watch more of these]
True Detective: The Psychology of Hart and Cohle (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201401/true-detective-the-psychology-hart-and-cohle) [Psychology Today mag - EP1,2,3 spoilers]
True Detective: A Psychological Analysis (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201402/true-detective-psychological-analysis) [Psychology Today mag - EP4,5 spoilers]

EDIT: Oh, and FB, good catch on the black stars in the school.

Another thought. Don't Cohle and Hart get a call over the radio almost moments before they might have explored the school in E3? Someone is keeping close tabs.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 19, 2014, 10:54:07 am
Good news everyone.

I finally found io9's (http://www.io9.com) True Detective episode reviews (http://io9.com/true-detective-takes-us-to-the-void-at-the-center-of-me-1524756707) (this link is EP5). Not always reasonable but they do some balanced analysis.

Also, I wish I had the ubergeek emoticon. Because there is an opinion piece there as well that deals with race, and feminism, in True Detective and media. A Song of Ice and Fire and Prince of Nothing/Aspect-Emperor are mentioned together in a sentence and the comments actually didn't break the internet:

The Adventures of White Men: True Detective and Me (http://observationdeck.io9.com/the-adventures-of-white-men-true-detective-and-me-1524953285/@riamisra)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on February 20, 2014, 03:16:33 am
Quote
No one like me gets to be the hero or save the world.

I don't think you really want to be the central examined character of those books or that series (well, I dunno where TD is going, but is it really going to have Cohle as a big hero in the end?).
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Triskele on February 23, 2014, 09:36:56 pm
I don't really understand the concept of the 4th wall.  Can anyone help? 

Was it the final shot?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: sciborg2 on February 23, 2014, 09:47:09 pm
I don't really understand the concept of the 4th wall.  Can anyone help? 

Was it the final shot?

Well on my part I was talking about the article you linked, about how Cohle could be talking to audience making his fictional world relive the same events through a rewatch.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 24, 2014, 08:14:27 am
Trisk, the 4th wall derived from theater and is the metaphorical wall between the play and the audience.

Rust's Monologue - E5 - Membrane Theory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKRksnjSxWI)

E6 seems like a fail right now. Pretty disappointed. Hoping 7 & 8 can make up for it.

Best line: "Fuck this world." In context.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 24, 2014, 05:12:53 pm
I want to do a write-up but I have a busy day ahead.

For now, another cool article and two Trisk noted on Westeros:

The Crazy Mythology That Explains ‘True Detective’ (http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2014/02/16/3292391/true-detective-carcosa/#)

Quote from: Triskele

True Detective's First Disappointing Episode (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/02/-em-true-detective-em-s-first-disappointing-episode/283996/)
The Horrible Things That Men Do to Women: Yes, True Detective treats its female characters badly. That's the point. (http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/television/2014/02/true_detective_the_women_on_the_show_are_treated_badly_but_there_s_a_good.html)

EDIT:

Also, I asked on Westeros what book was being read by an inmate as they pan into Kelly Rita... The Great Ruiner told me it's called "The Pioneer: African Adventure of Benedict Falda" - can anyone tell me what this book is about?

Aside, for those watching with captions, what are the lines that Reggie Ledoux mumbles offscreen when Cohle tells Dewall to freeze or when Hart walks out of the building to cap Reggie?

EDIT II:

Trisk linked another good one where Michelle Monaghan let slip that Maggie's parents are still to be in the show... way to let it slip: ‘True Detective’ Episode 6: Michelle Monaghan On That Sex Scene and the Show's View of Women (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/24/true-detective-episode-6-michelle-monaghan-on-that-sex-scene-with-matthew-mcconaughey.html)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on February 24, 2014, 10:51:02 pm
ETA: Nevermind, you already saw it lol :p

Madness, someone replied to your question about Ledoux on Westeros:

Quote
Reggie's dialogue during the fight at the cookhouse, once handcuffed:
 
It's time, isn't it? The black stars.
Black stars rise.
-why the antlers?-
I know what happens next. I saw you in my dream. You're in Carcosa now with me. He sees you.
-Marty!-
You'll do this again. Time is a flat circle.
-Listen, Nietzsche, STFU-
Black stars...
--Marty shoots him.--
 
Or do you mean what he's saying while Rust is yelling at Dewall? If so, I'll have to go rewatch to see if I missed anything.

Anyways, my basic thoughts on the episode last night: I loved it and thought it was great (then again I've felt that way about every single episode). I actually didn't have a problem with the way it was kind of going over stuff we already knew/guessed, just because everything's so well done.

The score really stood out to me this episode as well, primarily in two scenes. First there's the one where Rust meets with Tuttle (a great scene in and of itself), there's this little tune that plays that I loved. It wasn't even for very long, but it just gave such an interesting and unique feel to the scene.

The other one was the Maggie/Rust scene. The music that played there made the whole thing seem at once creepy, surreal, ominous, and tragic. Just great. The score for this is actually very subtle, but it's brilliant. There's one piece that plays a lot throughout various episodes, and it instills an amazing sense of foreboding and evil. Really good stuff.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on February 25, 2014, 06:39:28 am
So...hart hypocritically has sex with beth and there's this issue people have with a long, panting and grunting sex scene...people who will go on to watch porn at some time during the week or month?

Pulled you through the 4th wall, more like.

Still, might fall into 'too smart for it's own good' territory.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 25, 2014, 04:49:54 pm
'True Detective,' Flat Circles And The Eternal Search For Meaning (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maureen-ryan/true-detective-hbo_b_4847971.html)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Wic on February 26, 2014, 06:55:51 am
Anybody see this?

http://i.imgur.com/cvRO1FF.png
http://i.imgur.com/LRZmsmg.png

Maggie has a painting in their bedroom that exactly matches the mural found in the mental institution Cohle visits when he sees the girl they saved from Reggie 'Motherfuckin' Ledoux.

I think what they've been hinting at - rather than some Lost-TV-everything-is-magic nonsense - is an entire local culture so embedded/influenced by this cult that it's symbols seep into the social structure without any of the core rituals really being exposed.  The demon-catchers at the school and around Dora Lange and in the shed; the spirals on skin and on the drawing Marty's daughter made, all suggest this.  And here's something Pizzolatto said:

"There’s no red herrings in this show. I don't play games with my audience. I don't tell them something is one thing and then they find out it's not. No tricks up my sleeve."

Which is why I ignore all the Losty suggestions.

And even though I just said that, I think between the 'green-eared monster' and the pacman ghost-like head of one of the characters in Marty's daughters sexual drawings, and the fact that Cohle noted all of these murders going on along the coastline, I'm kinda sure there's a Lovecraft creature involved (who notoriously favor being in water).  But that's me. :P
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on February 27, 2014, 06:57:11 pm
I want to take some time to respond to this thread but my mind really isn't into it right now.

And even though I just said that, I think between the 'green-eared monster' and the pacman ghost-like head of one of the characters in Marty's daughters sexual drawings, and the fact that Cohle noted all of these murders going on along the coastline, I'm kinda sure there's a Lovecraft creature involved (who notoriously favor being in water).  But that's me. :P

I'm really hoping that NP has committed to the "Wierd Fiction" idea. I want this to end Lovecraftian and incomprehensible.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 05, 2014, 12:59:26 pm
The Ultimate Occult Companion to HBO’s “True Detective” (https://www.vocativ.com/culture/religion/ultimate-occult-companion-hbos-true-detective/)

Got this from Westeros.

EDIT: Finished reading as I posted.

Quote
This picture of Hart’s daughter Audrey posing with her painting contains signs we’re familiar with. The face contains black stars and the woman has a yellow hat. Both are reminiscent of the yellow king, which raises a question we never thought to ask—was Audrey molested by or somehow associated with the Yellow King?

The internet actually thought to ask...
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Aural on March 05, 2014, 02:00:00 pm
To be fair, he could've been referring to himself as 'we' the way that Inchoroi in TWP did.

But to be honest, of all the mysteries in TD, the one about whether Aurdrey was abused or saw something or whatever I find the least interesting... Of course it's terrible for someone to be abused or exposed to those crimes, but from a narrative PoV who gives a shit?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: sciborg2 on March 05, 2014, 07:43:23 pm
To be fair, he could've been referring to himself as 'we' the way that Inchoroi in TWP did.

But to be honest, of all the mysteries in TD, the one about whether Aurdrey was abused or saw something or whatever I find the least interesting... Of course it's terrible for someone to be abused or exposed to those crimes, but from a narrative PoV who gives a shit?

Yeah, I feel like this has become something of a bizarre side-plot. Where I think it matters is that the cult is just too large to do anything about. It's not 10 or even 50 people, it's a huge chunk of the population in that area.

So I think Marty and Rust are going to take down Tuttles and Childresses, but there will be more families waiting in the wings to keep the tradition alive.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on March 05, 2014, 11:40:44 pm
To be fair, he could've been referring to himself as 'we' the way that Inchoroi in TWP did.

But to be honest, of all the mysteries in TD, the one about whether Aurdrey was abused or saw something or whatever I find the least interesting... Of course it's terrible for someone to be abused or exposed to those crimes, but from a narrative PoV who gives a shit?
Reminds me of the hobo who gets accidentally shot and killed in disciple of the dog and it just feels like it gets in the way of the narrative.

Which is the point.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 06:34:38 pm
Really interesting infographics:

True Detective by Nigel Evan Dennis (http://www.wekeeptheotherbadmenfromthedoor.com/#intro)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Cüréthañ on March 08, 2014, 02:45:11 am
Well, I managed to get all caught up on this show whilst recuperating recently.  Gotta say, thanks for the recommend guys. 
Early episodes seemed bit slow and drawn out, but that perspective was probably lent by the opiates.  But man, the tone, acting, editing, direction cinematography and soundtrack is masterful.

Storywise, the focus on Hart's home life was annoying me, but now I suspect it might contain important clues. 

Anyone else think that Hart is involved in Carcosa from a familial perspective? 
I keep thinking that Hart is set to ultimately betray Cohle, but my conviction wavers.

Beyond the obvious hint of his name;
his daughter's drawings and the Barbie diorama,
the constant questioning of Cohle's deductions,
going straight to the kids at the farm(did he ensure the boy was dead?),
plugging Reggie before he could talk, perhaps Ledoux recognized Hart from Carcosa, not Cohle.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 08, 2014, 01:20:39 pm
Glad you got into it, Curethan. Just another impressive example of the noosphere's ability :). To think I was introduced by this very thread. But I only had to watch three to catch up.

I also want to note how (re)impressed I am with MM and WH. I've always thought MM and WH are fantastic actors, even if MM did do a lot of romcoms, he acted the shit out of them. He's like the Daniel Day Lewis of chick flicks. And WH... jeez, see his resume. And he acted the hell out of those too.

I don't think Hart will betray Cohle, Curethan. But I'm still on about Maggie's parents and, perhaps, Maggie herself.

FB and I were talking some days ago and the biggest mystery to me is... the scale of the events depicted in EP8 preview. I really feel like it's going to be EP4x2.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Cüréthañ on March 11, 2014, 01:12:27 am
Well, interesting conclusion.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Royce on March 12, 2014, 07:27:22 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Cüréthañ on March 13, 2014, 01:09:02 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: jamesA01 on March 13, 2014, 09:31:08 am
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/03/ten_extra_seconds_would_have_s.html (http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/03/ten_extra_seconds_would_have_s.html)

Everything about that was great except for "if the universe lacks meaning you have to create your own". Euggghhh. All the quasi psychotic seething right wing rage that guy spouts was summed up in that awfully oppressive line. Imagine facing nihilism and deciding you have a duty to create your own meaning in response to it, as if you could redeem your self. Everything I despise about western culture is summed up in that dreadful attitude. It's an actual INABILITY to recognize the unconscious metaphysical defaults that so totally structure your thinking, so you end up genuinely believing the self has to make up for the humiliation of a now dead god.

Although it's hard to work out from that review if he actually watched the episode or not.

Paul Virilio, who is a believing catholic, recently said that the long dead doctrine of Illuminism has in recent years unexpectedly reappeared and become an unwitting replacement religion for some people. I already though he was unto something here and the finale of TD has all but confirmed it in my mind.

Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 13, 2014, 10:51:02 am
Imagine facing nihilism and deciding you have a duty to create your own meaning in response to it, as if you could redeem your self.

Lol - I think that may be the argument of many individuals on SA.

To the show, I think it is very dangerous how they have characterized 1995 Rust...
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on March 18, 2014, 09:50:33 am
What ending did you want, James?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: jamesA01 on March 18, 2014, 11:01:55 am
That's a big question.

On the one hand I think the criticisms in the lastpyschiatrist link I posted are valid, and that the show was "meta psychotic" and therefore kept piling up references and symbolism and things that it couldn't do anything with.

On the other hand, if I was directing it, i'd have gone for something that abandoned realism entirely and got progressively weirder. I wouldn't have had any moments of redemption or allowed Rust to be able to finally grieve. I'd have delivered on the nihilist promise of the early episodes and made something that attempted to CONFIRM Rusts pessimism rather than deliver him from it. How far can you push the audiences tolerance for the shows outbursts of negativity? To the point where even the characters that cooly deliver or reject such lines are brought to a state of such terror and suffering they'd rather die than face another moment alive? That's what I think the show should have aimed for.

I'd have liked to see reality confirming Rusts theories, but in such a way that it also confirmed that he was also psychotic.

Of course this is all very easy to say...
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Royce on March 18, 2014, 12:22:24 pm
Quote
How far can you push the audiences tolerance for the shows outbursts of negativity?

This is what I initially thought this show was going to do. Although I am not surprised that it took a more positive turn. I think viewers generally want a ride where there is a balance between negative and positive experiences, because that is what reflects life most realistically in general. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. I agree that it would be interesting to see how much one way negativity viewers could handle before giving up, but I think that to secure profits most creators tries to find a balance, because pleasing 2% of the viewers is not profitable.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on March 18, 2014, 07:49:06 pm
I haven't seen it, but I'm suspecting a trap - the viewers on any male characters redemptions. Did they find the killer of the woman? Did they fix that - as much as it could be fixed given she's still dead?

Granted the author might have gone for oblique feminism rather than thoroughly plumb nihilistic depths.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Cüréthañ on March 19, 2014, 01:53:31 am
The redemption that I perceived was more of the sort that WH's character was a self involved stereotypical male pig at the beginning, but learned to empathize with MM's 'stained paladin' type and eventually put others before himself, regaining the trust of his family.  It is a character arc rather than a theme of the script.

It's kind of interesting the way people seem disappointed by the perceived lack of a ramping up of supernatural weirdness.
The denoument actually reinforces the supernatural hints if Rust's near death experience at the edge of a portal to the infernal plane is taken seriously.

On the one hand we have the show's determination to show actual detective work and mono-maniac determination cracking the case.

Rust's damaged character and nihilistic ennui provides the basis of these traits and contrasts with Marty's willful ignorance (which illustrates the social complicity and conformation that allows the murderous cult to exist within self serving social edifices).  Rust's character insists to the viewer that the supernatural allusions must be disproved, that the case is complex conspiracy and animal cunning.  Marty's character allows room for the existence of supernatural evil in the ignored margins of humanity.

Rust ascribes his 'visions' to neural damage until it becomes personal -  a strange reverse to how a critical mind should evaluate such phenomena.  The viewer is granted a supposedly objective view of his visions, excepting this final one.  The killer displays unnatural strength and mental characteristics (witness the preponderance of well used books around his house).  What was Carcosa originally built as?  Why is a voodoo cult comprised of only white folk (presumably descended from plantation owners) and how did they recruit?  A lot of questions remain.
 
I'm interested to see if/how the second series will connect with the first.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on March 19, 2014, 08:53:43 am
Visions and then a sudden denial of POV to the reader remind me of Kellhus. And his going, as the book describes it, mad.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Phallus Pendulus on March 24, 2014, 09:12:00 pm
Everything about that was great except for "if the universe lacks meaning you have to create your own". Euggghhh. All the quasi psychotic seething right wing rage that guy spouts was summed up in that awfully oppressive line. Imagine facing nihilism and deciding you have a duty to create your own meaning in response to it, as if you could redeem your self. Everything I despise about western culture is summed up in that dreadful attitude. It's an actual INABILITY to recognize the unconscious metaphysical defaults that so totally structure your thinking, so you end up genuinely believing the self has to make up for the humiliation of a now dead god.

Yes, having to create your own (admittedly subjective and arbitrary) meaning must be terribly oppressive when one is a mentally inadequate and socially stunted manchild as you clearly are.

(LOL at "psychotic right-wing rage", as well.)

Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Phallus Pendulus on March 24, 2014, 09:24:52 pm
I admit, though, the furious reaction of reddit-nerds to True Detective's ending was pretty amusing. "RUST REJECTED PESSIMISM...I FEEL TROLLED...WHO AM I SUPPOSED TO ADMIRE NOW???"  :'( :'( :'(

I personally liked the ending. Taking the "dark and cynical" option is the easiest path to critical praise, which  and it's a credit to Pizzolatto that he defied people's expectations and went with an ending of hard-earned optimism and lots of untied loose ends.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: jamesA01 on March 25, 2014, 08:35:10 pm
Everything about that was great except for "if the universe lacks meaning you have to create your own". Euggghhh. All the quasi psychotic seething right wing rage that guy spouts was summed up in that awfully oppressive line. Imagine facing nihilism and deciding you have a duty to create your own meaning in response to it, as if you could redeem your self. Everything I despise about western culture is summed up in that dreadful attitude. It's an actual INABILITY to recognize the unconscious metaphysical defaults that so totally structure your thinking, so you end up genuinely believing the self has to make up for the humiliation of a now dead god.

Yes, having to create your own (admittedly subjective and arbitrary) meaning must be terribly oppressive when one is a mentally inadequate and socially stunted manchild as you clearly are.

(LOL at "psychotic right-wing rage", as well.)

You forgot to mention my luxurious neckbeard.

If you'll deign to educate me as to how it's even possible I'll gladly listen, that is if you think i'm mentally adequate enough to understand.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 27, 2014, 11:55:30 am
You two got flagged (by a member - I actually still don't really understand what's happened here even after getting other thoughts on it). Explain that to me, maybe?

And also, assuming either of you intended some kind of offense (which really is an insult wasted on most members probably as you are both offending over my head at this point) what use do you really think these behaviors are here...?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: jamesA01 on March 27, 2014, 09:12:13 pm
If what I'm saying is causing people to feel the need to troll, then I'm happy not to post here.

Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 27, 2014, 10:24:41 pm
That isn't an acceptable solution to me. I've been enlightened by comments both you and Pendulus have made.

Again, I'm not exactly sure what you said that Pendulus reacted to or why Pendulus thought it necessary to respond as done, etc, etc... I'm simply saying a member brought it to the attention of Wilshire and I (as mods) and I'm trying to understand what's up?

Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on March 27, 2014, 11:28:48 pm
You two got flagged (by a member
I only flagged one, and it was Phallus. Treating it as if James has to account for anything here is not something I wanted or want.

James, if anyone felt your post was wrong they should have just reported it, not aimed personal attacks at you. Otherwise you're right, it ends in forum vigilantism/trolling and that's no good.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 28, 2014, 12:10:31 pm
I guess I might have written "The situation between you two got flagged." Though, james is an astute individual who can offer perspective on what has happened, even if that might be laced in sarcasm.

At the moment, Callan, I have your indication that some kind of social foul has been committed here. I don't understand what happened really as I tried to clarify in both my posts.

I can see some obvious examples of insult but attacking the author of an argument is simply a way to avoid attacking the argument? What upset Pendulus in the first place?

James, if anyone felt your post was wrong they should have just reported it, not aimed personal attacks at you. Otherwise you're right, it ends in forum vigilantism/trolling and that's no good.

You couldn't have just said this in the first place?
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Wilshire on March 28, 2014, 01:14:11 pm
If what I'm saying is causing people to feel the need to troll, then I'm happy not to post here.

Not this. You've posted a lot of thought provoking comments. Whether or not people agree is irrelevant, but if an argument/debate/discussion degrades into mindless name calling it needs to be re-directed.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Callan S. on March 29, 2014, 05:45:02 am
I guess I might have written "The situation between you two got flagged."
I flagged one persons actions.

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At the moment, Callan, I have your indication that some kind of social foul has been committed here. I don't understand what happened really as I tried to clarify in both my posts.

I can see some obvious examples of insult but attacking the author of an argument is simply a way to avoid attacking the argument? What upset Pendulus in the first place?
Is there a way in which he could be upset that justifies (justifies in the case of this forum) personal attacks being made?

I'm trying to understand how insults can be recognised as occuring, but they don't lead to any conclusion in of themselves? Genuine questions.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on March 29, 2014, 12:17:27 pm
...

You've done your part in this situation. You reported a post and made your reason for doing so apparent both via PM and now in the thread. Pendulus, hasn't been here to address anything.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: jamesA01 on March 29, 2014, 10:48:08 pm
To be fair to Phallus, there is definitely an undercurrent of sly provocation in some of my posts, although I intend for this to spark debate not to end up in personal attacks.

This place is definitely too good to be given over to trolling.

Anyway, i'm not terribly upset about the insults so we can probably move on and forget the whole thing.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: sciborg2 on March 30, 2014, 03:22:07 am
I admit, though, the furious reaction of reddit-nerds to True Detective's ending was pretty amusing. "RUST REJECTED PESSIMISM...I FEEL TROLLED...WHO AM I SUPPOSED TO ADMIRE NOW???"  :'( :'( :'(

I personally liked the ending. Taking the "dark and cynical" option is the easiest path to critical praise, which  and it's a credit to Pizzolatto that he defied people's expectations and went with an ending of hard-earned optimism and lots of untied loose ends.

Yeah, I have to admit I found the dismay of the nihilist crowd to be kind of hilarious.

"No, my hero failed me! He - gasp -  believes in things!"  ;D
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on October 31, 2014, 04:02:30 pm
Vice's The Real 'True Detective'? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5JkBs4lJak)
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on April 09, 2015, 11:27:03 pm
Season 2 Teaser (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OfU7CGY5DQ)!

I think everyone looks great. Especially Vince Vaughn's dead faced intro-shot. And I think Rachel McAdams looks boss rolling into whatever house. (Never thought I'd write a sentence like that.)

And that bolo-tie.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on April 14, 2015, 02:52:48 am
Funny you mention the Vince Vaughn shot, before seeing this he was the actor I expected to look the most 70's for some reason, but I think Farrell takes that honor.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on May 14, 2015, 11:50:30 pm
New trailer is out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD-oYlGAnUY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD-oYlGAnUY)

Hype building.

ETA: I really, really hope that Rachel McAdams gets into some crazy knife-fight. I love that out of the four main characters, it's the woman who seems most physically imposing and badass.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on June 22, 2015, 05:52:56 pm
So, that first episode...

EDIT: SPOILERS abound, derp. Should've put the disclaimer originally.
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I can't say I wasn't a little disappointed. I think I went in with pretty realistic expectations -- I never expected it to be as good as S1, which I think was kind of a "lightning in a bottle" situation for several reasons -- but there quite a few things that felt like a tangible step-down in quality to me here.

For starters the cinematography was super inconsistent. There were absolutely some fantastic shots scattered around (the motorcycle-at-night sequence was a standout, with Justin Lin showing off that Fast & Furious skillset), but if often felt like it would randomly lapse into a more typical, synthetic-feeling TV show look. Also, it seemed like they were trying to use the same stylistic method for shooting LA as they did with the Bayou and...it just doesn't quite work. Some folks have been saying that it's because the Bayou is just more exotic and we're all so used to seeing LA on screen, but I don't think that's really the main issue. Instead, I think the problem was that there was a great sense of coherent geography and place with S1, while here it feels like they were kinda just throwing around (admittedly beautiful) overhead shots of highways and industrial parks without them feeling they were really establishing a particular location.

Which comes to another issue of the opener, the editing/pacing. It just felt like it was all over the place -- literally and figuratively. Very disjointed. In S1, only the two leads had any real depth as characters I think, which was fine since the whole show was structured around them. With this, we have twice as many leads, all who seem potentially interesting (especially McAdams and Kitsch), but most of their supporting cast were non-entities. Clearly this is going to change, what with the ending of the episode pretty blatantly bringing them all together, so I'm hoping that was just a structural quirk of the introduction.

My biggest problem though was probably the writing/tone. It really felt forced to me, more than once, to the point of straddling on self-parody. The endlessly brooding and ominous music, the almost hilariously over-the-top pseudo-philosophical dialogue (Never act hungry, even when you're eating/I welcome judgement/Everybody gets touched), the fact that every main character comes off as some different shade of glum and broken, etc.

As I write it sounds like I hated it, which I didn't. I actually liked all four main characters and their actors. Again, McAdams and Kitsch feel like they have the most potential, particularly the latter as he at least seemed to be the furthest from a typical trope. Colin Farrel's "unhinged, alcoholic, dead-beat father detective with a dark past" is somewhat freshened up by being so, so ridiculously unhinged. The part with Aspen and his father was both disturbing and darkly humorous for just how crazy it was. And ironically, even though I liked Kitsch, I feel his character should have been basically been saved for the last quarter of the episode, as it would have cut down slightly on the scattered feeling.

I'm still onboard and looking forward to the season, and I actually have a feeling that the show will be stronger at the end than the beginning (the opposite of last season, I think), so we'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Madness on July 09, 2015, 06:59:30 am
Colin Farrell is the True Detective.

EDIT: Holy shit, I wrote that during his and VV's conversation.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on July 13, 2015, 07:10:41 pm
Is anyone else keeping up with this? I'm curious on ya'll's opinions here...
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: H on July 13, 2015, 08:15:10 pm
I haven't seen last week's episode yet, but so far, I'd rate it as "worth watching, but by no means must see."
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: Francis Buck on July 13, 2015, 09:12:57 pm
I haven't seen last week's episode yet, but so far, I'd rate it as "worth watching, but by no means must see."

Hah, yeah, unfortunately that's where I'd have to put it four episodes in. Since there's not much traffic in this thread I'll probably just wait until the season's over before giving my detailed overview of it.
Title: Re: True Detective on HBO -- If you like Bakker, you'll probably like this.
Post by: The Great Scald on July 25, 2015, 07:12:04 pm
Is anyone else keeping up with this? I'm curious on ya'll's opinions here...

I am, but the second season of True Detective has been so boring that I haven't really bothered to write any posts about it. By this point, I'm fast-forwarding through half the scenes.

Having an ensemble cast of four protagonists was definitely a bad idea; two of them are so dull they're almost unwatchable.