Kellhus' Limits

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Triskele

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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2013, 05:18:15 am »
Love this discussion.


On the Cishaurim breaking into the SS compound:

On westeros at some point we were going through a lot of the things that Moenghus had orchestrated throughout the plot.  I got all excited thinking that on top of everything, he'd orchestrated the assassination of Sasheoka in order to goad the SS into joining the Holy War.  It made sense since Moenghus had done so much else to orchestrate it.  And it was plausible that Moe would need the SS to get involved as it was suggested that the Holy War might not march unless they had the SS despite their misgivings about Schools because they couldn't imagine defeating the Cishaurim otherwise. 

It all made sense.  And it could still be true.  But...

It was also suggested that the Cish made the same mistake that everyone else did about them with the skin spies:  they couldn't believe that it wasn't sorcery, so they blamed the SS.  It was suggested that Moe had actually warned the other Cish not to proceed (or at least that he told them it wasn't the SS). 

So I'm not sure what to think.  If Moe really didn't plan it, it seemed like it still very much worked out in his favor. 

The reason I bring all of that up is just to circle back to what the Cish did or did not do when they assassinated Sasheoka.  The description is pretty badass as if a door of light opened up out of nowhere with three hellish silhouettes within.  I want to believe it's some teleportation that Moe designed.  Is there any way to know? 

If it wasn't Moe in any way, we're left to wonder what exactly the Cish pulled off and what they're capable of. 

If Moe was involved, might we not wonder then if Moe had more facility with Water all along?

"So you went to Shimeh and the Cishaurim and the promise of power beyond anything the Dunyain had conceived." (paraphrasing Kellhus)

"My inference was warranted."

Somnambulist

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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2013, 06:27:39 am »
So I'm not sure what to think.  If Moe really didn't plan it, it seemed like it still very much worked out in his favor. 


A fortuitous correspondence of cause if ever there was one.  But then, certain instances worked out in Kel's favor, too (the whole 'punish the Shrial Knights' thing, for instance).  Almost like the world conspired to make things happen.  But I digress.  There are a few things that make me think it was still Moe behind the assassination.

1)  I might literally be reading too much into this, but it seems there might be a clue in the following text.  The scene is Kel and Moe walking from the waterfall room to the interrogation room.  They walk in darkness and Kel is telling Moe what he thinks happened in Moe's time in the world:

"So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day..."
Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor.  Something hollow and fibrous.  A skull?"


I wondered about this passage for a long time.  It seemed strange to add that Kel accidentally kicked something in the dark while speaking to Moe, right at that moment.  He could have kicked something in the dark at any time.  Why then?  Was this a literary red flag, like he took a misstep in his assumptions?  I don't know, but it still nags me.

2)  A quote from Moe, after the two arrive in the interrogation room:

"I have some facility for those elements of the Psukhe that require more subtlety than power.  Scrying, Calling, Translating..."

Calling catches my attention.  Remember that Kel inferred the meta-gnostic cant of Transposing from a simple cant of Calling.  I believe Moe instructed his adherents in meta-Psukhe Transposing.  It might look different than meta-gnostic Transposing, but the effect would be the same.

3)  Everyone underestimated the Cishaurim.  In the battle over Shimeh, Cishaurim Primaries were able to defeat SS sorcerers of rank one-on-one.  They had ample raw power and probably would have defeated the SS had not Kel popped in and turned the tide.  Likewise, I believe Moenghus has been underestimated greatly.  Maybe I'm being stubborn here, but 30 years in the world of men is still longer than Kel has been there, even by the end of TWLW (around 22 years?).  I think that everyone is still walking Moe's conditioned ground.  His plans have not run dry, imho.  I'm digressing again!

Just remembered something else, as well.  Maithanet.  He was one of the Few, but Moe never had him trained as such (unless he somehow got around the whole blindness thing and Maitha was Cishaurim!!  hell, that would have been awesome).  Anyway, Moe obviously had plans for Maitha that didn't include him becoming a sorcerer (i.e., he had always planned for him to take over the Thousand Temples).  Just guessing here, but based on Moe's time in the world and the relatively young age of Maitha, I would hazard that Maitha was a teenager when the Grandmaster of the SS was killed.  And rambling...
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 06:38:31 am by Somnambulist »
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2013, 07:08:06 am »
Likewise, I believe Moenghus has been underestimated greatly.  Maybe I'm being stubborn here, but 30 years in the world of men is still longer than Kel has been there, even by the end of TWLW (around 22 years?). 

Damn straight.  See my earlier comment for a great example of Moe using calling cants beyond what any other character has even intimated.
They are still following TTT, but that did outgrow Moe.  Still, its kind of like his ghost or perhaps Seswatha's heart.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2013, 05:49:24 pm »
Talking about the son inevitably leads us to the father. The digression continues:

I refuse to accept that there was way more to Moenghus than was let on. Something extra maybe, but I'll never believe he was some kind of meta-psukri unless its revealed in the text.

That said, I like the idea that he was still able to teach. Just because he couldn't bare the water does not mean he couldn't figure out, theoretically, how to do it better. I can accept that he taught the other Cish, making them far more powerful than any of the other anagogic schools.


It does make sense that Kellhus' limitation are closely tied to Moenghus', which is probably why these topics tend towards the same thing every time they are brought up. How much of Kell's accomplishments were set up by Daddy? None of them, all of them, or somewhere in between.

I believe that Moenghus never was able to see past the Circumfixtion. Based on that assumption, most (if not all) of TAE trillogy is Kellhus' work. However, sense there is no consensus on the matter, its difficult to continue.
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Dûnyain novice

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« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2013, 06:33:12 pm »
I believe that Moenghus never was able to see past the Circumfixtion. Based on that assumption, most (if not all) of TAE trillogy is Kellhus' work. However, sense there is no consensus on the matter, its difficult to continue.

Same here.
After his death I never thought of Moe as a charachter that still had a big role to play. Sure we don't know a lot of things and given he was Dûnyain we are prone to think he must have had some great masterplan.

Still I always felt his encounter with Kellhus was the sum of his accomplishments.

He managed to become Cish, which in his case was an unfortunate mistake, but hey how could he have known? Anyway he rose between their ranks so it went kind of well.
Then he placed his son as the leader of a whole religion, and that was a huge move I believe.

Does he have other sons? We don't know and it may be, but have we seen any proof of it? I mean with Maitha we could at least wonder if he wasn't half-Dûnyain thanks to his descriptions. It would be silly if in the UC a charachter popped up as another son of Moe without having been shown at all before. (I'm not saying it's impossible just that it would seem weird to me)

To wrap it up I don't think Moe has anything else to show us. Sure maybe we'll get some answers about minor details regarding him but I would be extremely surprises ( and disappointed ) if it turned out that he still was the mastermind after his death.   


Ishammael

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« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2013, 06:35:06 pm »
I don't have the books in front of me, but I was always under the assumption that the Consult were behind the assassination, as part of their desire to eliminate the Cish (IIRC, they were concerned about their inability to place skin-spies in Shimeh which they incorrectly was related to the power of the Cish).
I havent read the first trilogy in a few years, so forgive me if I am forgetting something obvious to disprove my assumption here. 

As another option: We know at least one skin spy had a soul and was able to use sorcery... maybe there was another that was disguised as a Scarlet Spires and aided in the assassination somehow?  Major stretch, I know, but maybe it leads someone with a better mind at crackpot theories down a better path...

Somnambulist

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« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2013, 07:42:27 pm »
These are great comments, everyone.  I always let myself get distracted with Moe!  He fascinates me for some reason, could hypothesize about him all day.  But I won't.  At least not right now.  :)

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand, anyone think there are other sorcerous goodies Kellhus has Red-Bulled?  I wonder about the Psukhe sometimes.  Kel knows it's an art based on passion, so would he have discounted it as 'useless' to him and never pursued it?  Or, does anyone think he may have captured Cishaurim along the way of the Unification Wars and learned their art, as well?  Or as much as he could, short of blinding himself (unless he found a way around that).  I tend to think he discounted the Psukhe, arrogantly considering the gnosis as more powerful.  "Anything the Psukhe can do, the Gnosis can do better!"  However, it nags me that there's something crucial about the Psukhe, something that will be needed eventually.  Thoughts?
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Triskele

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« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2013, 08:22:16 pm »
Som - We've definitely explored the Cish on the other board.  It's so frustrating because on the one hand, there's so much to explore.  On the other hand, I cannot be sure that it isn't all a colossal waste of time that will end up leading to nothing.

A couple quick-hitters on what's been discussed:

-why bring back just one Cishaurim?  What could that mean?

-why have amnesia be part of said Cishaurim's personna?

-does said Cish actually have amnesia?

-does Fanayal know who Meppa is even if Meppa does not?

-does Malo's observation on the "beauty" of the "work without the mark" mean anything about how it compares to the ugly bruise of other sorcery?

-did the hints at the end of TTT that the Cish were stronger than anyone realized mean anything about how strong Meppa is?  Does amnesia potentially help Meppa recall the God's voice even better?  Kellhus said to Akka in TTT that whether the Cish know it or not, their blinding helps them better recall.  Would amnesia help even more?

-If Meppa isn't Moe, is he Moe's experiment or plan B somehow?

-Another fun observation is that it seems that the Cish are impacted differently by Chorae than other sorcerers...everyone else salts...they same to burn away like a tissue was set alight.  I don't know what that means, but it seems like a potential clue to...something.

Dûnyain novice

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« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2013, 08:29:56 pm »
Anyway, back to the discussion at hand, anyone think there are other sorcerous goodies Kellhus has Red-Bulled?  I wonder about the Psukhe sometimes. 

That's an interesting thought!

I don't see him discarding the Psukhe "arrogantly" though! Rather after weighing the two options.
He had a taste of the Psukhe when he faced the Incandati at Shimeh, and they were having the upper hand sorcery wise.

I recon his thought process went something like this:

- Obtaining the Psukhe going blind -> unworkable
- Obtaining the Psukhe without the blindness, but being limited by it's emotion-requiring nature like my father was -> Unworkable

Also the level of power he gains manipulation of the Gnosis into Meta-Gnosis is theoretically unlimited. ( Meaning that we haven't seen anything specific yet but we can safely assume he's ridiculously powerful ). Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.

 

 
Edit: added quote

« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 08:32:10 pm by Dûnyain novice »

Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2013, 10:18:00 pm »
Som - We've definitely explored the Cish on the other board. 
It would be more useful to just link to the board you're referring too.

Though there is no reason why topics need to be discussed only where they originated. If something gets too off topic it can be moved. Wouldn't want to discourage anyone from posting for fear of it not being in the "right" spot.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2013, 10:46:57 pm »
Does he have other sons?
Yeah, that's a good question.

It's also worth remembering that his path, by being caught by sranc, then Scyvendi, then having to scar his arms, then being unable to infiltrate the gnostic schools so he had to go cish...how much he was controlled by circumstances, by that initial capture.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2013, 02:38:33 am »
Som - We've definitely explored the Cish on the other board. 
It would be more useful to just link to the board you're referring too.

Just speaking for myself, but it can be pretty damn hard to find specific things in those Westeros threads. They're big, often move relatively fast, and there's a new one probably every month or so (and they've been going for years). On top of that, the Cish discussions are spread fairly wide (and randomly) across the threads. I'm not sure if there's a search function for threads themselves though, that might help.

Some other things to consider is that the "water" pouring from their forehead seems to be directly linked to their soul. One of the ciphrang at the end of TTT is able to yank a Cish's soul from his body just by grabbing onto the energy beam. I've also theorized that the reason the Cish are unmarked is because, by blinding themselves, they've been removed from the circuit of "watcher-watched", and thus are invisible to the Gods. This would correspond with why the No-God is invisible to the Gods...it's a soul (or, as I think, a collection of the souls it gathers merging into a new entity) without any ability to perceive the world. That's why it's asking what everyone sees. It's blind.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 02:40:05 am by Francis Buck »

Borque

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« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2013, 09:11:44 am »
Also the level of power he gains manipulation of the Gnosis into Meta-Gnosis is theoretically unlimited. ( Meaning that we haven't seen anything specific yet but we can safely assume he's ridiculously powerful ). Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.
Makes sense. From what we know it is reasonable to conclude that he knows that his Psûkhe-fu will be weak, due to his stunted emotional life.

Another thing is that we don't know if the Psûkhe works with inutterals, or if some other mechanism is at work. If there are no inutterals, he won't be able to add power by adding one or more.

On the other hand, it could be possible to add an emotional/Psûkhe component to the Gnosis. Maybe that is what Titirga did.

And, if Kellhus, or some other MG sorcerer, did this to the Meta-Gnosis, he/she could be exceedingly powerful.

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« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2013, 10:01:36 am »
Some other things to consider is that the "water" pouring from their forehead seems to be directly linked to their soul. One of the ciphrang at the end of TTT is able to yank a Cish's soul from his body just by grabbing onto the energy beam.

Right! That would be a huge liability! We can assume Kellhus knows about it since he studied with Iyokus, and I bet he asked for the details of how the Ciphrang fared against the Cish.
(On a sidenote, the Cish that got his soul pulled...That was some serious bad luck! XD)

On the other hand, it could be possible to add an emotional/Psûkhe component to the Gnosis. Maybe that is what Titirga did.

Hmm, that could explain why his mark was different...

I wonder how deep is Kellhus' mark! It should be the deepest mark ever seen, but I don't remember it being ever mentioned so far.

Which is strange given that in the WLW Mimara is constantly talking about marks, be it Akka or Cleric/Incariol/Nil'Giccas but she never mentions Kellhus.
Sure she states that the occasions in which they met were just a handful but shouldn't it be enough? I don't think one of the few would ever forget seeing such an extremely blasted mark.
Unless his mark is different for some reason, or mimara wasn't able to see it at the time. Which again seems impossible since from what I understood she knew she was one of the few at that time and could therefore see marks.

But perhaps my memory is playing games on me and she actually said something about Kellhus' mark...

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« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2013, 04:00:08 pm »
If Kellhus can somehow combine the Psûkhe, Daimos and the MG I think he would be the next Tirtiga.  (Which is about as powerful as one can be).  But, I still think he would have limitations to the point of still being able to be overpowered by "several" Quya or Aporetic sorcerers.  I also feel that if one, or a couple, of the hundred were to take and Earwa bound form, they could kill him... for now that is. 

If however, he can ascend to be the next No God or the Solitary God, I think at that point he would truly have no limits.

Side Questions:  Is it ever said either way if Aporetic sorcerers can make cants and such or is it strictly an artificer type of magic?