The Second Apocalypse

Miscellaneous Chatter => RPG Discussion => Topic started by: Kellais on December 01, 2013, 05:23:11 pm

Title: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on December 01, 2013, 05:23:11 pm
As the title suggests, this will be a thread for discussing the rules for a TSA rpg. For now, this is a brainstorming thread. If we come to a decision or at least close to one, we can open up a construction thread.

I wanted to take this out of the general rpg roleplayers thread because it needs focus (no pun intended ;) ). And the other thread is supposed to be a thread for just babbling about p&p game in general.

So here it is.

As already mentioned, as of now, i think that Runequest 6 would be solid basis for a TSA rpg, if we want to go the route of "take an existing system and tweak it" (instead of developing a custom made rulesset on our own). It is a relatively oldschool rpg with new paint that has a very well rounded rules-frame, imo.
I could see a more storytelling oriented game-engine as well. So FATE or Cortex+ are contenders if others think they are better suited to "replicate" the story-structure of Scott's work.

I am always torn between a more crunchy system that can simulate the realities of a given world versus a system that better models the kind of stories that you see in said world *sigh* Oh well. Maybe you guys and gals have some opinions about that?

Let's hear them.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: sologdin on December 01, 2013, 11:32:03 pm
what's the setting? cuno-inchie wars? ceneian empire? first apocalypse?
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on December 01, 2013, 11:41:17 pm
That would be the topic for the setting thread ;)
To be honest, i want them all as playground. This is why i hope that we can activate the TSA forum hive mind ;) Put together an as-complete-as-we-can-make-it setting guide.

But as said, that should be an own thread and not discussed in here (or only tangential if it directly translates to rule tweaks).
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on December 05, 2013, 03:04:30 pm
Hmm so not much ideas around about the rules, i see.

Does this mean no existing rules set seems appropriate to you guys?

Are you guys interested and willing to hammer out a custom rulesset for this? It's a lot of work! But it could be very gratifying if we succeed.

As my first recommendation was RQ6, i was thinking a bit about the magic system. RQ is a skillbased game (that means almost all dice rolls are based on skills you have) so i think that for sorcery, we would generate a language skill (Earwa's magic is meaning based after all and is transportet via a dead language) that characters would have to learn to cast sorcery. Together with the Pow attribute (that stands for you strength of soul and will) it generates the percentage that you will have to roll under to succeed.
Now i think we would need to base the different schools on different skills (surely anagogic schools have a different way of doing things than the gnostic school etc etc ) and maybe it'd be even a different cost to raise the different skills (for i get the impression that the gnosis is more difficult to learn...but it packs more punch if you do). So you'd need more skillpoints for the language of the old nonmen and the gnostic way but it would earn you more powerfull "spells" if you achieve the same level as a anagogic sorcerer etc. .

Is that something you'd want as well? Or do you rate balance higher?
And as my reading of the PoN and the Appendix is a looong time past, am i even making sense or am i talking nonsense  :o ;D
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on December 05, 2013, 03:26:16 pm
Does this mean no existing rules set seems appropriate to you guys?


Sorry, Kellais.  Not at all.  Just honestly haven't had a lot of time to parse the RQ ruleset.  Still looking forward to doing it.  Pesky work.   :)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: sciborg2 on December 09, 2013, 07:54:10 pm
Still interested.

I've been busy on some other stuff. I'll give the RQ rules a look.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on December 10, 2013, 04:00:06 pm
Gave the RQ6 ruleset a cursory look-through. When time allows, I will do a more in-depth review, but a few initial thoughts for now.

Generally, it seems to evoke a compatible flavor to Earwa.  The rules already have caste structures in place and it seems relatively easy to mod those to Bakkerverse specific roles.  I like the societal structures (barbarian, civilized, etc.) along with the lists of professions available to each strata.  Probably need some tweaking there, but the framework exists, so that's good.  Earwan tribes will need to be built in (obviously), maybe as another strata above the afore-mentioned societal structures, but that's just detail.

The background options are a great idea.  I didn't read through all of them, but I imagine most can be used 'as is' while others will need to be modified or maybe substituted.  Again, just detail.

The Luck mechanic seems cool, and echoes what a couple of us have brought up (i.e., about the survivability of PCs), and appears to be readily malleable to accommodate White-Luck, divine favor or maybe even probability trance-like bonuses toward encounters.

I like the several approaches to magic/runes.  Maybe modding the terminology from 'runes' to something more world-specific, but in effect using the same sort of mechanic to build cants/wards for the various disciplines (gnosis, anagogis, psukhe, etc.).  Seems we could build the power/effect levels through those, but I may have read that wrong, so please correct me if I have.  Anyway, seems promising, along with the cults/organizations, as a way to distinguish the different Schools.

All in all, at first blush, this definitely seems to be something I can get behind in terms of providing a framework for an Earwan ruleset.  As I mentioned, I'll need to read deeper, but I thinks it's ticking a lot of boxes (for me, at least) already.  Great recommend, Kellais!
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on December 10, 2013, 06:49:35 pm
This makes me quite happy to hear. I was not sure if someone else would see this the samw way i do but you summed up pretty nicely how i felt about RQ6. I will have to do a more in depth read through as well but i held off until i got at least a second opinion. So if you could see working with this rulesset, I'd be on board as well.
What i like about RQ6 is that it provides a not too dense and heavy set of rules but has enough meat to model quite a lot of stuff nonetheless.
As i already said, i could totally see us go with a more narrately oriented rulesset like FATE or Cortex+, putting the story before the reality, so to speak. But if we want to go with a more simulationist approach, i think we could do worse than with RQ6.

I guess we should soon decide which side we want to walk so that we can start with concrete rulesinterpretations for Earwa (btw i like your tribes add-on idea, Somna).

So, can all readers of this thread that are interested to take part in this please speak up an decide which approach they'd prefer!
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Francis Buck on December 23, 2013, 07:32:24 am
I've never truly played a P&P RPG in my life (I grew up with video games and the Pokemon TCG, the latter of which I played with my dad, lol). He acutally got really into it with me, despite knowing nothing of Pokemon whatsoever beyond the card game. I suppose he just enjoyed the actual gameplay, so to speak...good childhood memory actually now that I think of it, heh.

But, I did have two D&D Monster Manuals, because I was a proto-geek and, you know, fucking loved fantasy monsters, and then used it for "writing inspiration" as a middle-schooler (which, at that time, just meant I would make up absurd fantasy worlds with plots stolen from shit like Jackie Chan Adventures). But yeah, I read the hell out of those monster descriptions, the societies, the powers, everything. Then I finally tried to actuallly play D&D with my dad, using one of the starter kits, and we literally did one "session" (barely an hour), and then had to stop for whatever reason, and we just never tried again. I'm absolutely certain that if I genuinely tried a P&P, and learned it, I'd fucking love it. And there's no setting I'd rather do it in than TSA (I've seriously fantasized about TSA video game RPGs).

So yeah, no clue what I could possibly contribute - I mean just reading this thread I only kinda grasp maybe half of what you guys are talking about - but at the same time I'd love to at least dip my toes in it if I could, though I wouldn't know where to begin really. I love worldbuilding (be it small or large scale; from an isolated tribal village with a unique culture to an entire cosmos), and writing/storytelling is my passion, so if someone could point me in the right creative direction, I'd love to be involved.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on December 23, 2013, 01:53:10 pm
Break out those manuals and read up? (I've never played either, FB - my two attempts never got past creating characters with a bunch of other newbs and an impatient DM; we were also much more into videogames/boardgames... or just straight cards).
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on December 23, 2013, 02:12:03 pm
So, can all readers of this thread that are interested to take part in this please speak up an decide which approach they'd prefer!

I personally have not played any 'story-telling' type games, so I wouldn't have much to contribute if it goes that route.  My preference would be for the 'simulation' brand, as that's where my particular interest lies.

FB, creative writing is paramount for pnp rpg games as you don't have the interface of a video game to show you the world you're in.  Flavor and ambience are literally given through word and illustration.  So even if you're unfamiliar with the mechanics of rulesets, there's absolutely a need for people who can write and 'show'  the world to the players.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on December 23, 2013, 03:49:04 pm
Francis, maybe in this case you can help us write up and collect all the data for the world of TSA? I know it is not very creative, but we need that as well ;)
On the other hand, if you are also very interested to take part in here, why not purchase the rules (there is a pdf option that is not as expensive as a printed book) of RQ6 and read through them?
There are also rules that are very similar to RQ6 and are free. Google for Openquest srd or Legend srd (with the legend srd you have to pay attention...there are possibly two games that have that name and an srd...we are talking about the one which is a percentile dice system, not the 20 sided die variant).

Hope that helps. If you need more pointers, just post in here or send me a PM.

Somna, as we do not have that much input from other members, i guess we should just go ahead and try to work with RQ6. It seems the first interest has already died down and the overall interest is negligible (as you predicted, Madness ;) ).
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on December 23, 2013, 04:46:17 pm
Kellais, sounds good.  The holidays are upon us and I'm stretched, but still reading through RQ6 as and when I can.  Bit slow going atm, but hopefully will be able to contribute something more worthwhile in the relatively near future.  The ideas are there but the time is not.  :)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on December 25, 2013, 04:17:18 am
It seems the first interest has already died down and the overall interest is negligible (as you predicted, Madness ;) ).

It'll come, Kellais. We're the early adopters posting on the forum at this point. Someday, Bakker's gonna blow up in terms of people paying attention. I feel it 8).

I have very little interest in playing but I will definitely help in the FB capacity and do some clerical writings :).
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Francis Buck on December 26, 2013, 04:53:20 am
I think the series will take off once it's completed, personally. Whether or not it will ever become super-mega-popular, I do not know, but I have no doubt that, say, maybe ten years or so down the road, TSA will be looked upon as one of greatest achievements in the genre. I thik it's kind of inevitable, honestly.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on December 26, 2013, 03:35:02 pm
Super-mega-popular, sunday, sunday, sunday edition of the Second Apocalypse. Come one, come all to the greatest show of devastation the World has ever seen. See the Father of Dragons lay waste to the ancient fortress Dagliash as the Great Ordeal cowers within. Skulk with Achamian and Mimara in the ruins of Dunyainic Ishual. Watch as Kellhus' family life falls apart and he betrays his own Holy War for the Tekne and unlimited power. Has the White-Luck Warrior inevitably coupled with Esmenet? Will Meppa the Stonebreaker be the First Cishaurim to preach to the Inrithi idolaters? And how much meat can one little Dunyain cannibal really eat?

Find out next time, on The Holy Consult!

(That started off with Japanese adverts in mind and ended up... circus-esque?)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 02, 2014, 02:41:16 am
I actually was seeing circus at first but that it ended rather anime "next-episode" preview lol.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on January 04, 2014, 12:54:22 pm
Lol.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on January 24, 2014, 06:22:20 am
I’ve been reading the RQ6 ruleset a lot recently, and it just occurred to me that what we need, rather than adapting a whole ruleset, is to create a ‘World Guide’ for modifying the existing ruleset.  While this may have been obvious to some (or all) interested in this project, it only dawned on me tonight that this would be the way to go.  So, to use the 'World Guide,' the GM/players would need to have a copy of the RQ6 ruleset.

RQ6 seems to me to be based on some pretty common sense and logical approaches to conflict resolution.  It’s both relatively realistic and (can be) harsh in its treatment of characters and how they interact with the world, and flexible enough for common sense interpretations to allow for some leeway.  It can be brutal if you're unlucky with the dice, but also has mechanics built in to help alleviate the consequences.  I think it's a really good fit to the overall feel of Bakker's books.

So, with that in mind, here are my setting-specific suggestions for inclusion in the RSB Eärwa World Guide for RuneQuest 6 (working title only!):

1) A gazetteer of sorts introducing the physical world, maps, nations, timeline, languages, naming conventions, etc.

2) Adaptation of Chapter 2: Culture and Community to include the 5 Tribes (or 4, since we don’t know much about the Xiuhianni yet?).

3) Adaptation of Chapter 3: Careers and Development to include Eärwa-specific careers and to exclude those which may not fit.

4) Adaptation of Chapter 4: Skills to include jnan and other setting-specific skills (jnan could easily be added to the descriptors for Customs and/or Courtesy skills).

5) Adaptation of Chapter 5: Economics and Equipment, again to setting-specific items/currency.

6) Adaptation of Chapter 7: Combat to include combat styles inherent in the setting (Blade-dancer, Nansur Columnary, etc.)

7) Adaptation of Chapters 8-13 which deal with the different approaches to magic.

8 ) Adaptation of Chapter 14: Cults and Brotherhoods to include all the known organizations of Eärwa.

9) Adaptation of Chapter 15: Creatures for the same reasons, obviously.

That’s it!  :D  Some of the points above will be relatively easy, and others a huge pain in the ass.  I’m sure there are other suggestions I haven’t thought of, so please chime in if you're so inclined.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on January 24, 2014, 01:04:37 pm
Yeah - I'm going to waste some time on a couple of those :).
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 24, 2014, 02:25:26 pm
Development continues!

I know nothing about p&p rpgs, and have never played one, but if there is something I could do, or learn to do, to help out, let me know.

I haven't been following extremely closely so forgive me if this have been throughly covered,  but have you found a workaround for the magic system? It seems to me that a schoolman would either be game-breakingly powerful, or entirely useless, depending on the situation.

...Then again, after some brief though, we've only ever seen upper lever schoolmen, so I guess development could be scaled without too much difficulty.

The only thing that is an issue, in my mind, if the fact that 'magic resistance' is either 100% or 0%.

Offensive cants and defensive wards could be adapted to party use (buffing, projectile protection, increased evasion% etc), such that even an encounter with fully choraed opponents could leave a schooman with some capabilities.

Entertaining ideas like stone/earthen armor that offers some physical protection to wielder/party-member come to mind.

Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on January 24, 2014, 04:59:14 pm
Awesome, guys!  So, I see the Gazetteer section to be a collection of data to 'show' the setting to prospective players.  Will probably require a lot of creative writing to establish a tone and introduce the world.  The other sections will require a little mechanics knowledge to help fit the details into the existing parameters (i.e., new weapons, skills, combat styles, etc.)  The sections that will require the most rules manipulations, I imagine, will be the magic system.  That will probably require some play-testing, as well.  However, any and all pertinent information to any of the afore-mentioned sections will be helpful (i.e., names of cants and wards, equipment used by various factions, national dress and ornamentation, etc. etc.)

Wilshire: your ideas on the magic system seem to be consistent with the story.  While the majority tend to dole out massive damage, we've also seen some protective and utility cants.  There is definitely a progression system inherent in the rules, so you'll definitely see low-power initiates growing into War Cant Masters over time.  The modification of cants also seems to be implied, so that's definitely worth exploring.  TBH, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the magic rules, so more thoughts on this later.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 24, 2014, 05:24:22 pm
So, as an individual without any experience, where would be a place to start helping?

Looks like $25 to purchase the PDF, which seems kind of steep for me right now. I don't know that I want to start with that until you're absolutely sure thats the rule set you're going to use. You mentioned some free ones out there that are close, would you mind  explaining what disadvantages there may be using those to figure out wtf is going on as opposed to the $$ one? (I'd rather start with time investment and see where it takes us).

Aside from acquiring some base knowledge about P&P rpgs, what would be useful to this Project? I recently started a series re-read so I'm in a position to collect information along the way. We've got the Almanc to help with some stuff, but thats mostly plot based analysis, so what else might be valuable?
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on January 25, 2014, 08:21:36 pm
Very cool, Somna. I guess we can go that way and work step by step after the book's ToC.

@ Madness & Wilshire - Well any help in collecting the setting details would be appreciated tremendously! As for the rpg side of things...as i told Somna somewhere (i think in the first rpg thread), if you do not want to buy into an rpg pdf just yet, try to search for Runequest srd, or Openquest srd. It should turn up system reference documents (hence srd) for the game-systems of Openquest and Runequest. Those are similar game systems to the RQ6 game. Not exactly the same but they can give you an idea of what the game engine looks like.
As to the question of what is helpful...well collecting information for the world is surely very helpful (races, cultures, cities, regions, history etc etc). We do have the TTT appendix, but there is so much more information hidden in the text, it would be great to have as much of it as possible. So if you are interested, help in that. If you still have the mind and the motivation to dig into rpg mechanics, by all means read up on it and join in the discussion about the adaption of the RQ6 rules as well. All opinions are welcome.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 25, 2014, 10:40:32 pm
Well I printed the 150 pages of Openquest PDF, so I'll be perusing that.

collecting information for the world is surely very helpful (races, cultures, cities, regions, history etc etc).

I think the Esmenet POVs have a lot about culture hidden in them so I'll pay careful attention and try to take some notes :)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on January 26, 2014, 04:25:19 pm
Those are my thoughts, Kellais. I'm kind of like Theliopa/Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa, I have little creative value ;). Though, I might bend my mind to learning some rule-sets a la Wilshire.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 27, 2014, 12:28:31 am
Thoughts on Magic. I've only read the first 3 chapters of Openquest (is OQ an acceptable acronym for that?)   , which just goes up through character creation and the basics of magic, so these are just preliminary thoughts.

Characteristics:
Obviously Intelligence (INT) and Power (POW) will effect the skill of the caster, but in Earwa I think Charisma (CHA) should/could play a role (major or minor, also depending on which school).

Skills:
Should probably collect all references to spell names and properties, as well as any Rank names that are referred to inside the schools.

In OQ Magic Skills are listed as Battle magic, Sorcery, Religion, and Religion (other).
Battle magic is supposed to be some kind of inherent magic available to all characters. That will need to be changed since not everyone in Earwa can use magic.

Types of magic users defined by OQ
Cults, Schools, Lone

Other skills:
Lore
Lore(other)
Natural Lore
Language (own)
Language (other)

-------
This is how I see it breakdown so far:
Divine:
Cishaurim. They are the only major school that fits within this category. Its been debated whether or not they use some kind of thaumaturgy, which is more or less Magic derived by gods.
Depending on how strict to current Lore you'd like to be, potentially minor wizards from obscure cults could have some limited magic capabilities.
Witches. Potentially could put Witches as Divine, if they are to be included at all.
Sorcery:
Broken into two catagories, maybe three: Anagogic (Scarlet Spires, Imperial Saik, Mysunsai, and The Circle of Nibel [who are they?]) Gnostic (Sawyal and Mandate) and potentially Quya might exist as a separate branch.
Anagogic schools and Gnositc schools should have some different requirements and skill progression. Gnostic would have higher requirements on Language and would naturally have higher Lore(other) progression than most schools (naturally drawn to ruins, old structures, etc.)
I don't know how much of a nerf it would be, but perhaps force the Anagogic schools to only Battle Magic and lower level Sorcery, and let the Cish/Quya/Gnostic wield no low level Battle Magic, but be able to get stronger Sorcery?...
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 27, 2014, 03:27:50 am
I was also thinking that there may be a limited number of 'encounterable' things:
Basically you've got sranc out in the wilds and thats about it. You could run into some of the other weapon races, such as skin-spies, bashrag, and wracu, but not in huge numbers.
You might also have a rough band of highway men, or maybe some hired assassins (could be from any of the cults or the Thousand Temples, even one of the schools depending on character backgrounds).
If you're lucky there might be some Scylvendi attacks/raids, or perhaps a random war-like natives in the woods somewhere.
Some high level encounters might include a Nonman Erratic, Wracu, or maybe a surviving Inchoroi or a synthase.

Thats 4 weapon-races, 1-3 different groups of humans, and 2 high level boss creatures.

Although that makes it easy-ish to map out their stats, skills, attributes, etc., it doesn't provide much variety.
Low level encounters would be limited to small groups of inexperienced sranc or a band of thieves, mid levels would be bands of sranc with the occasional  bashrag and higher level humans, higher levels might get bigger sranc clans with several bashrag, or maybe being hunted by skin-spies, and like I said above there aren't too many bosses.

Just thought I'd point it out. Will that be a problem? Openquest has something like 40+ monsters listed.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on January 27, 2014, 12:59:41 pm
Lol - community 8). Too cool. Good work, Wilshire.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on January 27, 2014, 04:46:59 pm
Wow, Wilshire... :o

Thanks a lot. And as for the magic system comments...i typed something pretty similar so it seems we are of one mind. I also think that the different schools need different prerequisites and maybe even different costs. The bonus is that the more expensive schools also have more...punch.

As for "Monsters" ... i agree. We will not make a monster manual of classical rpg critters...or at least that is my preference. I want it to be a TSA RPG not just a cheap copy. So we will have some "Monsters" but a lot of the bad guys you'll encounter will just be "evil" humans and their schemes. Sure, the skin-spies will be there and the consult works behind the scenes...but they will not be there to face the players all the time...and surely not openly.

Anyway...cool stuff, Wilshire. I hope you'll keep it up. Oh and look to your inbox ;)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 27, 2014, 05:22:50 pm
There could be some stat variation based on Race, but maybe rules could be adapted to make large group conflicts possible. Meaning that difficult will scale more with total number of enemies rather than absolute strength of each individual creature. Just more thought.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on January 28, 2014, 12:43:50 am
RQ6 thoughts so far:
Much more complex than OQ, but OQ did a decent job at explaining the basics.
It seems that every system is more in-depth and complex, and I've only read through some 50 of the 460 pages.
 
Characteristics:
Pretty standard here, though I like how everything is explained. All of it seems pretty TSA friendly.
One note: Luck. Consider changing name to have something to do with the Fate, or Anagke, or even World-Conspires.

Culture/Community:
Available choices: Barbarian, Civilized, Nomadic, Primitive

Scylvendi seem to fall someplace between Barbarian and Nomadic. Some minor adjustment might need to be made.
Only Sranc seem to fit into primitive culture, and I assume those will always be NPC so I'm not sure if that matters.
Civilized seems to fit reasonably well with TSA.

Background Events: I haven't read though them but they seem entertaining. Good addition.

Career Development:
Most careers seem reasonable, though I didn't read extremely closely.
Sorcerer, Shaman, Priest, and Mystic: Caution with anything that involves mysticism/supernatural/cults. Closer reading needed, but probably a good idea to limit those through culture and remove ties to sorcery.

Age: Whats the average lifespan of a non-magical character in Earwa? Normal aging might make sense for most characters, but schoolmen might need a separate table. They live longer, perhaps based on school, and become much stronger as time goes on. Also, starting age of schoolman apprenticeship may be important. Another dice roll?

I'll just keep posting my thoughts like this as I read through the document.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on February 05, 2014, 03:03:02 pm
Btw, total offtopic, but it might be of interest to some of you:

RQ6 is available via bundle of holding. It's a very reasonable price and if you go over the median price you get some extra books for free on top. No matter what you do, it's an awsome price for this stuff AND you also help charity.
The deal is available for the next 6 days.

So here goes: http://bundleofholding.com/index/current (http://bundleofholding.com/index/current)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on February 05, 2014, 05:19:25 pm
Seems reasonable. $6.95 is worth it for the main book alone. All the other stuff is gravy, even at $17.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 11, 2014, 04:57:37 pm
Sooo... Now that its June, anyone interested in this yet? We've got a couple of new members floating around out there, thought maybe I'd ask.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on June 12, 2014, 10:59:28 am
Thx Wilshire for bumping this up.

I myself am now working with RQ6 to bring my own fantasy setting to life. So by the end of that i should have a good grasp on the rulesset. If we, by then, have the necessary world-notes on Earwa, i'm sure we can translate those into RQ6 without it being a sisyphean workload  ;) ;D
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on June 12, 2014, 12:29:21 pm
This has been a problem on my side.  I was hoping to use RQ6 with my gaming group, but it kind of disintegrated.  Being democratically aligned, they voted to use another ruleset to play under.  Lol.  Tbh, its been a little bit of a slog to get a better grip on the rules without the play experience.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 12, 2014, 05:15:18 pm
What would be absolutely ideal would be to get a group together and somehow play one, but with different timezones it might be impossible. I'm EST, or well actually EDT until daylight savings time ends.

We could do something super simple like Skype? I dunno, maybe that wouldn't even work, but I'd be willing to try. I'd also need to get a set of dice. 3 people doesn't seem like enough, but I have literally 0 experience. If we need a 4th, maybe Raizen will play (he posted on the other thread)?

EDIT:
btw with the "bundle of holding" i got some extra campaign books and quests, etc., so we could just use some of the preset stuff just to get a feel. It would make starting a game easier, especially because only Kellais has RQ6 experience.

Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Raizen on June 17, 2014, 01:36:13 pm
I'd be interested in helping out for sure.  I have a few years of D&D experience under my belt, but I'm sure RQ6 is similar in it's playstyle.  I was doing some thinking about the chroae and how we can limit their power over Schoolmen.  There are a few things we can do with them, these are just a few ideas I had:

- turn them into a skill for non magic users (passive skill) that reduces damage taken by sorcery by a given percentage that will increase as the level goes up.  This is just their defensive capabilities
- At the higher levels perhaps the sorcerers get a will saving throw to combat the effects of the chroae. Something like, "warrior x approaches schoolman y with a chroae.  Schoolman y can use a will-based saving throw (or the RQ6 equivalent) to negate the salting by cracking the ground or pulling a building down on him.  Otherwise, chroae will become the most broken part of this game and no one will want to play as a schoolman since a capable warrior with a chroae will always win.

I figured we can keep this well open for discussion, as it'll be the most challenging portion of this.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2014, 02:59:26 pm
In Earwa, in open conflict, a schoolmen always loses to a choraed warrior, or hell even a choraed child. More so in Earwa than any other universe, Mages are a glass cannon. Lots of power but very, very, squishy. If the power of the chorae is reduced, then the maximum power of a given schoolman would also need to be reduced.
Finding a good balance will be difficult.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on June 17, 2014, 03:20:05 pm
Honestly, while accepting that being chorae'd as a sorcerer would suck as a player, I'm not sure I agree with changing that fact to make the game more palatable for those wanting to play a magic-user.  Personally, and this is just my opinion, flavor is lost and the whole idea of playing in Scott's world loses it's edge if we start tinkering with fundamentals like that.  This world is deadly and unbalanced, unfair and serious as fuck.  To me, it would just be a cheap reduction of a game if that edge and desperation were taken away or 'balanced' toward sorcerer survivability.  As a player, imo, if you choose to be able to lay waste to legions of men and sranc and wield god-like power, you accept the possibility (inevitability?) of someone coming after you with a trinket.  I think that's fair.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2014, 03:39:38 pm
Somna I lean towards that sentiment. Chorae being all or nothing is something that makes Earwa unique, and changing that could be too much.

I suggest allowing for some kind of find-and-disarm mechanic. For example, if two groups are facing a boss with a chorae, the schoolmen might spend his turns "feeling" where exactly the hidden chorae is. One he is successful, the other members of his group could try to target that spot and try to get the opponent to drop it.

Also, the schoolman wouldn't be totally useless. He might be able to search the surroundings and look for rooks, or loose walls/cieles/tree branches that could be lifted and thrown at the enemy, doing some amount of damage, hindering or disorienting them in some way, etc. I think we will need to find out of the box solutions for this, and therefore account for them when building our world here.

Damage values for inanimate objects based on size/weight and distance from target.
Ability for schoolman to move/lift/throw based on school, rank, and experience and even specific skills?
Think of things like creating a dust storms in a desert to blind enemy
Use schoolmen to create armors from mundane materials (must be recast every battle), good for absorbing 1 blow from a choraed opponent, used on self or companions.


In order to stay true to Earwa, we will have to invent plausible scenarios that might offer a balance to make things more palatable for the player, or at least playable and worth the risk

Also, as long as there is not skin to chorae contact, the schoolman would survive. Hurt, certainly, knocked-out, probably, but at least still alive.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on June 17, 2014, 04:38:03 pm
Wilshire, all true.  Within whatever we can come up with in terms of an Earwan rpg setting, we should absolutely give suggestions as to how sorcerers could survive an encounter with a chorae bearer.  All the things you mentioned can be given as examples.  I believe there are guidelines for the toughness, etc. of inanimate objects within the existing ruleset of RQ6.  There are also many examples given in the books (i.e., disguises, Javreh protectors, Kellhus' spinning rock shield, billows, etc.).  Magic in RQ6 is extremely flexible in terms of adapting it to need.  I think a clever sorcerer would try any/all those things, the degree of success pinned to how good he/she is.  Ultimately, it's up to the gamesmaster to provide plausible scenarios to the players and to grant them a means to survive, however small that may be in some cases.  Unless a gamesmaster is deliberately trying to obliterate the players (in which case they're doomed no matter what and there are other issues to contend with), a good gaming group will provide and find ways to overcome the obstacles they encounter.  You wanna play a sorcerer?  Be smart about it.  Dumb sorcerers don't survive, just like a dumb soldier who rushes to attack a bashrag with only a knife and no help is gonna die.  Just thoughts.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2014, 05:15:17 pm
lol "rushing a bashrag".

I really need to play a game so I can know what going on :P
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on June 17, 2014, 05:27:33 pm
I agree with Somna.

What i want to throw into the discussion:

First of all, sorcerers are pretty rare. Maybe it is even called for to limit players to non-sorcerers (?) or if you do not want to strictly forbid it, make them roll for it? Something like "throw a d100 and on 01% you're a sorcerer".

Second of all i don't see the imbalance of Chorae as dramatic. Why? Because they are even rarer than schoolmen. Not everyone will have a Chorae handy and that is an unbelievable understatment ;D And if you want to go up against the big players in the three seas...well then you better have a plan how you will deal with those Chorae-Warriors.

At least that's my stance on it.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2014, 06:03:02 pm
Yeah roll to see if you can see the Onta at least.  Whats an RPG without Mages?? Would be a real shame if you don't have a real option to become one.

All that See aren't Schoolmen. I think it has a lot to do with being recruited at a young enough age. Those who come from High Ainon from a big city like Carythusal or Aoknyesus (sorry spelling), or from a Norsi fishing village/city, would have a decent chance at being discovered and trained from a young age. Those in Sumna might be recruited to that sect of schoolmen hunters, the Luminaries, Momnem recruited to the Saik.

If you aren't from a major city, there is almost 0 chance you are a schoolmen, or at the very least you are way behind learning. Also, Caste-Nobles are less likley since its taboo.

What I'm getting at is I think that there are far more people who can see the Onta than we are lead to believe, but depending on where you are born, your upbringing, religion, etc., you start limiting the number of people really quick. I think limiting it to 1%, or another such flat rate, seems unfair and unrealistic. Through the character generation process you will decide many things about your character, some are player choices, some are chance rolls (like family status I know for sure). It will be important early on to roll to see if you can see the Onta, but the final roll should be left until later on when you know more about your character. We could develop a small table, based on the factors I described above, which will give you your success range when you roll that D100.

A nobleman from Sumna will have about a 1% chance, but a Nobel from Ainoi might make it. A caste menial in Norsi would have a greater chance still.
 
Maybe that is too convoluted, I don't know :P, but at least then the player can make choices and have some options rather than a flat No or low/impossible odds.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on June 17, 2014, 07:13:14 pm
I think that if a player wants to play a sorcerer, they should be free to.  Or play a member of the college of Luthymae, for that matter, with the sight or whatever.  Basically, if you want to be one of the Few, you should get to be.  If you're ambivalent about it as a player, maybe the GM makes a secret roll about whether the character is of the Few or not.  That would keep players who never cared about magic advancing their characters to a badass warrior, then deciding they wanted to be a sorcerer as well.  Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't, based on the roll made when the character was created.  Also, I like the idea of more or less chance based on population density.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2014, 07:38:04 pm
Are there examples in RQ6 or any other RPG that has a character class that exhibits something close to what Kellais said? Or, in the same vein, examples of games without a magic user class? My biggest concern is that removing schoolmen will limit the options too much.

I could see either way, low chance vs conditional vs player choice.

The potential player in me says, hey, if I want to be a schoolman then I should be able to. The Earwa historian in me says schoolman are rare and not everyone gets to be one, tough luck pal. But, remember that the player characters are not mundane people. I believe that there is something in the beginning of the manual that mentions this fact. PC are inherently different than everyone else, and as such are not subject to every statistical rule that is apparent in Earwa.
If you want to make a group of 4 schoolmen, fine, but the first chorae you encounter will kill at least 2 of you :P.

Side note, I feel that unless you are a Quya or a Dunyain (probably not player options?) there will be no monk/magi/warrior combos.  Being a successful schoolman will take a lot of skills that are useless to a warrior and would probably take too long to develop.

Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on June 17, 2014, 08:24:35 pm
I agree that players should be allowed to be sorcerers if they want.  Absolutely.  My whole thing is that you should be able to play ANY character you want within the guidelines of the ruleset and world setting.  I think there's enough complexity in the books to allow for just about anything you want.  I guess the point I was making about the random GM roll was only in the event of players who were ambivalent or didn't care if they were of the Few or not.  If they explicitly state 'I don't care/dont' want to be one of the Few,' the GM makes a secret roll.  Most cases they wouldn't be, but maybe, just maybe, they would be anyway.  That would be a great component in a story-driven campaign, something about themselves they didn't realize but may come in handy one day.  Whatever.

Years ago, D&D had a thing called psionics that you could only get as the result of a random percentage roll.  But that was just flavoring for the game.  It didn't really apply to anything unless you came up against someone else with psionics.

As far as I can tell, acquisition/betterment of skills is how characters progress in RQ6, versus class advancement in other systems.  A sorcerer could learn to fight, or a warrior could learn magic.  Just means the character would be more versatile, but not as good at sorcery/fighting as a 'pure' character (one who focuses on a single skillset only).  But, not having actually played RQ6, I could be talking out of my ass.   :P
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2014, 08:42:38 pm
But, not having actually played RQ6, I could be talking out of my ass.   :P

I have been doing much ass talking. Back to my earlier question then, could we have a game via skype or some such with the 4 of us?
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on June 17, 2014, 10:25:46 pm
What time zones are we in?  I'm in the US, Central time (I think that's GMT-5).  I guess it depends on everyone's availability.  I'm approaching my holiday, so I'm probably out of the picture for a month or so.  Maybe after that for me.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 18, 2014, 12:07:36 pm
What would be absolutely ideal would be to get a group together and somehow play one, but with different timezones it might be impossible. I'm EST, or well actually EDT until daylight savings time ends.

We could do something super simple like Skype? I dunno, maybe that wouldn't even work, but I'd be willing to try. I'd also need to get a set of dice. 3 people doesn't seem like enough, but I have literally 0 experience. If we need a 4th, maybe Raizen will play (he posted on the other thread)?

EDIT:
btw with the "bundle of holding" i got some extra campaign books and quests, etc., so we could just use some of the preset stuff just to get a feel. It would make starting a game easier, especially because only Kellais has RQ6 experience.


Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Garet Jax on June 18, 2014, 01:48:00 pm
I would play without hesitation.  I have my set of dice already... Assuming my original D&D dice would work.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Somnambulist on June 18, 2014, 02:02:15 pm
Yep, it's mostly percentage dice (2 d10's) but most of the regular D&D dice are used (d4, d6, d8).  Not sure if d12 or d20 are used, but definitely the others.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Garet Jax on June 18, 2014, 02:14:10 pm
I think I have an 8 or 9 piece set.  Let me know what you guys decide!
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 18, 2014, 02:18:57 pm
GJ are on Pacific time right?
I will need to buy a set of dice before we start, but that should be quick. If a standard set of D&D work I'll just get those. We have at about a month before this starts anyway.

I guess we will have to pick a time and a day, probably a saturday or sunday since we are all spread out, sometime near the end of July? So like July 28 or 29?
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Garet Jax on June 18, 2014, 03:02:46 pm
Arizona actually doesn't switch for daylight savings time... So us in the desert do not know what time zone we are in when it switches.  But I am -7 GMT right now.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 18, 2014, 03:09:54 pm
I have literally no experience with this type of thing but I would play and make up the numbers until the community is well established.

TBH its the sort of geeky guilty pleasure I would have anyway!
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 18, 2014, 04:16:54 pm
Another nerdy recruit. Sweet.

Just a reminder, we need people to siphon out all the knowledge of places and culture provided to us in the books, including but not limited to TTT appendix which needs to be somehow converted into a useful format (probably by geographical location).

SR - we are playing RQ6, i.e Runequest 6th edition. If you want to play, you'll probably have to buy a copy of the ruleset unless something else can be arranged. PDFs are available to DL and are cheaper than the bound book, but are still kind of pricey imo. No need to pull the trigger on that yest I guess?

Also, everyone involved will likely need to help with converting the RQ6 ruleset into our own Earwa relevant rules. This can't really be done before the data is collected, and we'll need to be familiar with the all the rules and how they work as a whole so that we don't change something and break the whole game.

OpenQuest, while not the same, was suggest earlier in this thread or one of the other 2, as a jumping off point. Its can be DL'd for free, is shorter than RQ6, and has enough similarities to potentially grasp content for the newbie. I read through it, decided it would be entertaining to work on this project, and bought RQ6 later (went on sale at just the right time). Mayhaps you'd like to start there and see if its worth jumping into this rabbit hole.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on June 18, 2014, 08:37:04 pm
My problem with the "everyone can play everything" is, in this case, setting dependent. Normally i totally agree with Somna. A player should be free to play what he wants  (within reason, of course).

But, as Wilshire put it, i am torn between the usual rpg conventions (see above) and the Earwa-"Scholar" in me. As i am leaning more towards the scholar side in an earwan rpg, i guess i'd limit the availability of stuff for an TSA RPG. Not saying we have to build the game this way. It's just how i would handle it at my table because first and foremost, i want to have the authentic Earwa experience. And i would choose my players accordingly.

Anyway... for the rules set we want to put together, we certainly should build all the rules necessary to play everyone and everything in Earwa. So i think we should even put thoughts into how a Dunyain will be handled, ruleswise, etc etc .

As for a Skype game - I see two problems for my part: 1) i am in europe, so most of you guys are between 6 to 9 hours behind my time 2) I am not sure my spoken english, especially via skype or teamspeak or whatever (so without any kind of mimic and bodylanguage), is up to this task.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 18, 2014, 10:55:05 pm
We could work out the time difference, early evening for us in the states, morning-ish for you in Europe. As for the spoken english thing, can't help you there, sorry ;)
The rest of us could attempt to play a game I guess. I just need any experience playing an RPG like this.

If you want the possibility to limit things, like schoolmen, I think detailing something similar to what I said before could work. Make it optional or whatever. I gather that games like this play as strict or as relaxed with the rules based on the DM and other players at the table. Its easier to put too much detail in to add some "authenticity". It lets the DM not look like an ass, but it allows the players to feel like they had a part in the decision.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on June 19, 2014, 12:20:02 am
roll20.net/

Easy to set up, embedded video chat, live and shared diced rolls, and its free.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: klarakos on August 01, 2014, 07:39:50 am
Those are my thoughts, Kellais. I'm kind of like Theliopa/Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa, I have little creative value . Though, I might bend my mind to learning some rule-sets a la Wilshire.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: The Sharmat on September 04, 2014, 02:27:34 am
There's another wrinkle in playable schoolmen that I don't think is being addressed. Earwa is very much a "caster supremacy" setting. Representing most schoolmen as anything close to as powerful as they are in the books would see them quickly overshadow all the other characters. The only thing counter-balancing them is the (very rare) chorae. And Chorae are basically a big dose of "save or die", which is usually decidedly unfun to play against, win or lose. There's not a lot of strategic options with a chorae-tipped arrow vs. a schoolman. Either the guy misses, or the schoolman is a pillar of salt.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on September 17, 2014, 04:58:15 pm
Those are my thoughts, Kellais. I'm kind of like Theliopa/Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa, I have little creative value . Though, I might bend my mind to learning some rule-sets a la Wilshire.

Hey klarakos,

Why don't you give it a try and lay it out for us? I am sure you are just being modest with the "little creative value" ;) I'd like to see your reasons in more detail for your thoughts in that other thread. As it were i got the general view you seem to have, but it'd be much more interesting and, i hope, fruitful if you go into the details of what you think makes a rulesset tick in contrast to the shotgun-blasts in the dark. How would you tailor the rules to specific needs...show it to us on an example. If you read and played that many games i am sure you have some interesting anecdotes where you can showcase your view.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 04:47:49 pm
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Tzimisce

Simas Polchias [06|Feb 11:42 am]:   A one-liner, if i may. Ichoroi are basically space-faring tzimisce.
Wilshire [06|Feb 11:43 am]:   i will be google that shortly
Wilshire [06|Feb 11:44 am]:   very cool, and yeah a good description.
Wilshire [06|Feb 11:44 am]:   what is White Wolf?
Simas Polchias [06|Feb 11:45 am]:   p&p rpg publishing company, afaik


Have not explored it a ton, but that page at least seems curious close to the inchoroi. Might be worth checking out.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 05:36:01 pm
They sound like they're a race of flesh, but are they also a race of lovers?
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: H on April 29, 2015, 02:20:26 pm
They sound like they're a race of flesh, but are they also a race of lovers?

Super late to this party, but in my former days, I was an avid reader (and occasional player) of Vampire: The Masquerade.  I actually own almost all the Revised edition books and a few Second Edition books.  The "world building" was pretty interesting, from what I recall, although, maybe that is just nostalgia talking...

I'll have to dig out the books and take a look for you guys.  From what I can remember though, there certainly are some parallels between the Tzimisce and Inchoroi, but to what extent I can't really recall (Tremere and Lasombra were my real interests).
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 31, 2016, 05:26:17 am
A few thoughts from a veteran gamer

1) Chorae are more common than sorcerers.  Their are literally thousands of chorae out there but most are in the hands of caste nobles and elite archers.  They're rare, but potentially obtainable by PCs.

2) Chorae are lethal to sorcerers, but they aren't an instant win button.  Chorae didn't save the guys Akka dropped a roof on, or the guys on the walls of Shimeh when the Spires blew up the walls, and more than a few Shrial Knights died when Cishaurum scourged the earth beneath their horses' hooves.  There's going to need to be rules on indirect sorcerous attacks.  A chorae won't save you when an earth moving cant drops smacks you with a two ton boulder.

3) This world is lethal.  Sorcery blows people into smoking meat.  Spectacular badasses get stabbed in the ear and die.  Chorae turn sorcerers to salt.  Bashrags turn people to bags of stew.  Guys catch sranc javelins in the eye.  Warriors like Saubon and Cnauir slaughter their way through hardened veterans. 

The game's rules need to reflect that aspect of the world and provide some kind of protection for players as well.  Akka, after all, isn't directly struck by the sranc's chorae.  He's wounded and knocked out, but not killed.  Cnauir survives the crushing defeat inflicted on his people by the Nansur due to a very generous amount of luck.  Kelhous survives a Nonman unleashing deadly sorcery at close range when he first goes into the world.  Something like fate points would allow players to buy down their fatal bad luck to merely incapacitating incidents or narrow escapes.  That would allow the players to survive a small number of bad rolls without stacking up a massive PC body count while keeping the world dangerous to them.  And, of course, if you want to increase player fatalities one need only cut down or eliminate the fate points.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Callan S. on July 31, 2016, 08:11:47 am
[cough] - maybe some spoilers there?
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Madness on July 31, 2016, 01:58:59 pm
[cough] - maybe some spoilers there?

For TGO? Or just generally for the series?

Otherwise, appreciate you trying to bring some life to these threads, CC.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 31, 2016, 11:55:56 pm
There are no spoilers from the TGO.  All references are from the earlier books, which should be fair game as they've been out for years and this is a discussion of how to reflect Earwa in an RPG format.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Callan S. on August 01, 2016, 03:19:52 am
Ok, it has been years and I didn't remember the Akka bit (TGE?)

Instead of fate points, call them 'The World Conspires' points. TWC's.

As I think that's what is hinted at in the book - some of these outrageous instances of luck are actually contrivances.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2016, 06:41:12 am
The White Luck is a contrivance, everything is  . . . . debatable.  Besides, Fate is a whore.  Use whatever name you're happy with, I just use the term from Warhammer Fantasy because its well recognized in the gamer community and its also a fantasy world where men are crushed with uncaring cruelty by forces greater than them.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Callan S. on August 01, 2016, 10:50:39 am
Fair enough, I get the principle you're conveying.

I'd probably also suggest some kind of mechanic, call it a 'red shirt' points, to pass off attacks on the PC as having happened to some NPC hireling/follower instead. So the brutality of the attack is underlined with someone getting killed - instead of the javalin merely grazing the side of the PC's head and KOing them, spend a redshirt point and it goes through the neck of an NPC follower, leaving them thrashing on the ground grasping at the dread intrusion. Possibly redshirt points recover over time or from some game play event, while fate points don't (ala warhammer fantasy)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2016, 04:20:54 pm
Fate Points seem like a good idea.

lol "red shirt points". Also a great idea, but the name makes me laugh :D .
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Fenris777 on May 02, 2017, 06:24:01 pm
If any of you guys are still tinkering with this, or want an alternative idea about mechanics, see if you can dig up a copy of Seven Seas (a pirates with magic role playing game). The mechanics are what I'd call cinematic, rather than brutally realistic but there's some great stuff to support group storytelling (incl fate/luck). Also, Ars Magica is a caster focused game with a very cool magic system, also worth checking out.

A game with wildly divergent power levels can work btw, just look at Rifts or Cyberpunk. That wouldn't be my choice for a kind of rules set, but I've played so many friggin' RPGs I'm kind of jaded about a lot of mechanic heavy rules sets. I tend toward storytelling focused rules sets with stripped down mechanics.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2017, 06:29:26 pm
Hmm, haven't heard from Kellais for a long time. Maybe he's got this post followed and you'll summon him ;) .

I've not played many tabletop RPGs so I'm just not a good judge. I think I've heard of Seven Seas but I don't think I've played it.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Wilshire on May 03, 2017, 12:02:24 am
Also, this thread might be of interest to you:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2101.msg32096#msg32096
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Fenris777 on May 03, 2017, 12:35:16 am
Hmm, haven't heard from Kellais for a long time. Maybe he's got this post followed and you'll summon him ;) .

I've not played many tabletop RPGs so I'm just not a good judge. I think I've heard of Seven Seas but I don't think I've played it.
Don't feel bad about that, hardly anyone has played it. It was a short fad.  There's a second edition coming via kickstarter apparently. Ars Magica is a little easier to find.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on May 13, 2017, 10:56:00 am
I wouldn't call 7th Sea a short fad. We played it for years. It had good support. It even got taken up by the d20 era and wizards published double-stat books for it. So yeah.

And the second Ed. is already out.

Never played Ars Magica.

I still think Runequest 6 (now called Myhtras) would be perfect for Earwa. I can see me playing a PoN rpg with Blades in the Dark as well, but it'd be a very different atmosphere than with RQ6.
FATE Core is also very much possible if you want a more narrative way to portray Scott's world. It would work well, imo.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Fenris777 on May 13, 2017, 03:27:35 pm
7th Sea didn't splash like, say, Vampire did when it come out. Splashy enough to get people outside of the RPG community playing. 7th Sea was a great game, but I don't think it made a lot of waves, inside or outside the hobby. Anyway...

Ars Magica is a flawed game in many ways, and it's not one I actually played a lot. However, it has two things going for it relative to this discussion. One, it's a game designed specifically to have magic users at the top of the pile, power and influence wise. Second, an interesting and nuanced magic system based on die pools.

I think there's two options to represent a brutal setting like RSB's. You can go with more detailed and mechanical set of rules that replicate the power differential and cheapness of life, or you go with a rules that are more narrative focused and let some of that power differential play out through the story rather than through mechanics.

Personally, I'm against RPG systems that regularly leave the fate of player characters in hands of a simple die roll too often.

You critically failed your shaving skill roll, you cut your own throat and die... You laugh, but this happened in a session I played in. I wish I could remember the system, it was a fantasy system based on % rolling. Huh. It'll come to me.

That's not to say that players shouldn't be able to die via game mechanics, of course they should - without risk there is no suspense or tension, but rather that up to a certain point, the narrative of character death should be something the player participates in. There are few thing less satisfactory in a RPG sessions that having characters die in unimportant encounters because of crap rolling. I'm not suggesting anything about the Runequest 6 either, I'm not really familiar with it, just talking shop in general.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Kellais on May 13, 2017, 10:23:16 pm
I like your measuring-stick, so to speak, almost nothing made a splash like Vampire when it came out. So yeah... lol. 7th Sea was big enough in its day. As i said, when you got your game picked up by WotC, THE rpg publisher, then yeah, you did it. But as you said, anyway... (as an aside, i am not sure i'd want to use 7th Sea mechanics for Earwa...if i'd take roll&keep system, which i really like, btw, i'd take the L5R implementation...it's grittier).

I agree with the two approaches you cite. It's more or less what i tried to say in my post before yours.

Save or die is indeed quite frustrating. Especially if it is just one roll for a very important situation. Although in the case of PoN and AE...it might be appropriate ^^
lol...really, died from shaving?! Well, that sucks, i agree :D

Very much agreed on the suspense thing. There needs to be risk and characters should die...especially if they do stupid and/or careless things. Dying in an unimportant encounter is frustrating but i think it very much depends on how that encounter happened. If it's the players fault they got into such an encounter, death is fair game for me. As i said, if players rush into things foolishly, they have to be prepared for anything. Especially in a world like Bakker's.

And talking shop is what we are here for, right?! .... Right?! ;)
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Fenris777 on May 14, 2017, 02:51:17 am
I'll admit, it was a big stick. :D Also, 7th Sea might have been bigger in your area than mine, either way I liked it a lot. I wouldn't use the whole rule set either though. The part I liked, and which I've used in modified forms elsewhere, is the henchman/boss approach to the bad guys. It's very cinematic and I find it does a great job keeping the action rolling along. In general, an approach like that could help keep the crusty grimdark life-or-death stuff for the right narrative spots. I'm not very familiar with the L5R RPG either, I should check that out.

The thing that struck me about Ars Magica in relation to Earwa was more the bare bones of the idea. They have very powerful mage characters, and non-mages are essentially henchmen. You can play a mix of both, but the game is upfront about the power difference. Call it Gandalf and the dwarves I guess. :) They present an interesting option where players have a mage and a non-mage character, and sometimes play entirely non-mage sequences and adventures, sometimes mixed, and sometimes entirely mages with the other characters as NPCs. It's neat idea.

I completely agree about player stupidity. There's a point where the GM needs to let them reap the rewards of their behavior. Chances are that kind of stupid was hurting the game anyway. If the players are all fully engaged in the story though, and playing their characters to the hilt, I'll go out of my way to avoid actually killing any of them in a pointless way. As much as possible without straying into egregious deus ex machina territory anyway. Of course you and I both know there's potentially a lot of very painful stops for a character that stop short of actual death. Muhuhahaha!!! *cough* sorry, my villainous laugh is a little rusty.

The game I was trying to remember the name of might be RoleMaster.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Cynical Cat on July 31, 2017, 01:36:39 pm
Fair enough, I get the principle you're conveying.

I'd probably also suggest some kind of mechanic, call it a 'red shirt' points, to pass off attacks on the PC as having happened to some NPC hireling/follower instead. So the brutality of the attack is underlined with someone getting killed - instead of the javalin merely grazing the side of the PC's head and KOing them, spend a redshirt point and it goes through the neck of an NPC follower, leaving them thrashing on the ground grasping at the dread intrusion. Possibly redshirt points recover over time or from some game play event, while fate points don't (ala warhammer fantasy)

This is also a good choice.  Only War, the 40K RPG where you play Imperial Guard, implements both Fate Points and red shirt points with its Comrade System which bulks up the party with useful NPCs that are quick and easy to run (the mostly give bonuses to players and eat bullets) which allows an IG game to have IG grade casualties with out excessive numbers of PC deaths.  Yes, because someone will want to know, the commissar can buff the party by executing a Comrade to encourage the survivors. ;)

Earwa is going to be a fairly lethal system, in order to accurate simulate the source material.  Depending on mechanics it will be based on, it may or may not be save or die.  Plenty of RPGs manage this.  Shadowrun (which uses karma as fate points) manages this, Warhammer has already been mentioned, and so on and so forth.  Lots of things can kill easily, even if you're a stone badass.  It's not just Chorae and Sorcerers or Sorcerers cooking people, its Cnauir ur Skeotha cutting people down or the Captain eating an arrow or some poor bastard getting in Saubon's way or dodging left when he should have gone right when the Bashrag brought the hammer down.  Whatever the system, it needs to be able to handle high lethality without excessive player death.  So yes, fate points and red shirt points are both good ideas.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: TaoHorror on July 31, 2017, 11:37:30 pm
I think a mistake game designers/creators can make is trying to mimic the source story too much and not simply use the source material ( names, magic, countries, people ) to build a fun game. First and foremost, the game has to be fun to play and yield numerous ( unlimited? ) plays. For example, my idea would be each player is a Dunyain and the idea is to defeat the other opposing players in taking control of Earwa - maybe not a good idea, but the point is the story did not go along those lines ( although I haven't finished TUC yet, so maybe other Dunyains are still in play - nobody clarify that, LOL! ). Think it would be kinda a cool take on Civilization building ( which appears to be liked/popular ) whereby you're building from what's already been built. The idea of sacrificing your "pawns" for advantage would be cool ( could be once you've killed off everyone on your side then you've reached the absolute and win ). We all know the story and can contribute in kind, but the success of this would be in the strategy, learning curve, game theory, uniqueness ( not another miniature fighting game ) - needs the richness of politics/plotting with horror. It needs art. It needs everything - could be a wicked Kickstarter, but need someone whose top notch with game theory, another with great artistic sense to design scenes/miniatures and another with a creative sense of fun to pull it off. I'm up for diving into this, but admittedly not an ace in any of these qualities.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 12:33:09 am
That's great for a board game, not an rpg.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: TaoHorror on August 01, 2017, 01:05:52 am
oh, right, sorry - you'all talking about rpg - i've had my full of KS, starting to compromise my brain. For RPG, you can simply create a D&D or Gurps Fantasy campaign with Earwa as the world. Think Bakker said PON books came from his original idea for an RPG campaign ( think it was D&D ).
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 01, 2017, 02:11:59 am
oh, right, sorry - you'all talking about rpg - i've had my full of KS, starting to compromise my brain. For RPG, you can simply create a D&D or Gurps Fantasy campaign with Earwa as the world. Think Bakker said PON books came from his original idea for an RPG campaign ( think it was D&D ).

Sure you can, but (I don't really know Gurps) but D&D isn't very good mechanically for doing Earwa.  You can do a low effort reskin, but that's all it will be. 
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Quietside on August 02, 2017, 02:14:43 am
Hi all, thought I would throw in my 2 cents re: systems. For lighter, faster play Savage Worlds would fit the bill pretty well. Magic is flexible, modifiable and can be powerful without being ridiculous. A system that screams to be used for Earwa but requires a bunch of 12-sided dice and willingness to learn some mechanics is Blade of the Iron Throne. Combat is gritty, brutal and detailed, magic is powerful and terrifying and would not take much modding to make it appropriate to the setting. Both systems also have the advantage of being cheap.

A couple of things about BoTIT: Characters have passions/drives that influence the amount of dice they get to roll when performing actions which I think does a nice job of reflecting Earwa's 'conviction as reality' feeling and though it can be easy to get your ass killed the player accumulates points through play as well as their character, allowing characters to be brought in as replacements for those who die or retire.

If the idea is just to run games that capture the feel of the setting, as opposed to write something for publication these would be systems I would recommend. RQ6 would work well too though.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Tyrin on August 02, 2017, 02:20:09 am
I second Ars Magica. Although I haven't played it personally, I've heard enough from friends to know that it seems like it would not necessarily be unsuitable for such things.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 03, 2017, 10:44:50 am
I second Ars Magica. Although I haven't played it personally, I've heard enough from friends to know that it seems like it would not necessarily be unsuitable for such things.

It would be workable.  The magic system would have to be hacked, but that's fairly easy to do.  The downtime system might need to be reworked (or it might not), depending on the kind of campaign you're running.
Title: Re: [TSA P&P RPG] Design discussions aka brainstorming the rules-set
Post by: Fenris777 on August 20, 2017, 03:04:01 pm
I second Ars Magica. Although I haven't played it personally, I've heard enough from friends to know that it seems like it would not necessarily be unsuitable for such things.

It would be workable.  The magic system would have to be hacked, but that's fairly easy to do.  The downtime system might need to be reworked (or it might not), depending on the kind of campaign you're running.
Yeah, hacks would be necessary, but I like the die pool approach from a narrative perspective. Players need to describe what they want to achieve in terms of the elements required. It force starts some decent story telling anyway, at least form any even half committed player. As a GM, I also tend to be up front in telling players that, generally speaking, the better they describe and story tell their actions (magic in this case), the easier I'll make those actions. RPGs are (mostly) about heroes, and I want my players trying heroic stuff, not crunching percent chances of success on their calculator watches.

The downtime system in AM is a little forced in spots, but it's an easy change. Really, we could just as easily be talking about the magic system from Mage too, since they're pretty similar in mechanics, if not description.