The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:48:36 pm

Title: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:48:36 pm
Quote from: SATXZ
After three reads of the the entire series available in print, then reading all bakkers interviews, the reading thru three seas and second apocalypse forums....
I know feel confident saying there its but one God and Fane is His prophet. 

All others in Earwa are wrong and will burn (except perhaps some chosen females).

Agree or disagree, give your reasons and I will defend mine own.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:48:42 pm
Quote from: bbaztek
sounds legit to me


(seriously)
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:48:46 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
I don't know why anyone else will burn, but that's probably because I wont go there mentally because it seems really awful.

I'd also suspect it's actually more complicated - that Fane perhaps is right, but that the god of gods he worships is pretty much asleep at the wheel. The helm is free for many to fight over it.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:48:56 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
*shrug* I think it could be so, but I almost think it's more like Bakker to have the 'right' people be some group we've never met.  Just to fuck with the confirmation/selection bias of his readers.  Maybe the tribe that didn't come to earwa.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:01 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Right about what, exactly?
I can't recall anything about their version of the afterlife...
And the psukhe is just a different metaphysic that we know almost nothing about.

The only conclusion I draw is that they are right in that Inrithism is mere superstition, an approximation of whatever metaphysics rule the interations between the outside and it's agencies.
That doesn't mean that Fanim religious convictions are any better, in fact the differences in doctrine seem fairly slight.  Just your standard repudiation of other prophets, cults and idolatry.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:05 pm
Quote from: SATXZ
Just want to clarify, I'm speaking in terms of this fictional universe around earwa.  Nothing of our world would fit there, even the philosophy is purely bakkerian. 

The Xian tribe who stayed in eanna is a wrench in the spokes. But they've not been spoken of in these books, so no point in me going there.
The kentyai were given the tusk, and the fanim repudiate it completely and for very good reason.
If moengus had been successful in his ttt, fanimry would be the ruling religion if the ordeal.  Shortest path and all that.  Just so happens that dunyain are sociopaths, so the Gods pure water cannot be wielded by them.

Quick edit for the post above...  The fanim are Religion, but a new man-God centric one.  Whereas inrithism is based upon writings created by pure evil rape aliens with specific goals in mind.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:10 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Well, the bit about exterminating Non-men was the only thing added to the Tusk by the inchies according to that interview. 
The rest is all based on Angrasheal et al.

As far as we know, Fane's rejection of the Tusk and Inrithism may have more to do with the fact that he was an excomunicated priest of the Thousand Temples than his revelation. 
Which in itself might well have had more to do with his discovery of a 'new' type of sorcery whilst suffering blindness and privation (and subsquent rescue by the mystics of the Indara Kip'fana) than any genuine divine intervention or instruction.

But, as I said above, I think we really don't know enough about actual Fanim beliefs to compare them properly.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:15 pm
Quote from: SATXZ
Wasn't Fane expelled because of his new beliefs?  The inchies put in anti Nonmen and anti Sorcery prohibitions.  Pretty much controlling an entire religion and damning millions over time for false beliefs. 
Either way, we readers are not given Sejanus or Fane POV's.  However we do get to see demons, hell and the scary as hell Mother of Birth.  From the Goddess yatwer we get to inference that all the 100 gods are similar with their abilities and their realms (outside). 
We are told by the Dunyain that the 100 gods are just parts of a whole.  A nice way to please all sides, so shortest path at work again there.  I don't really believe we readers can trust a race of sociopaths.
The Fanim say the 100 gods are naught but greater demons, which The Goddess thru her disciple pretty much admits is true. 

So from all the hints we're given throughout all the readings and interviews, there are three ways to view the outside.  The understanding of the Fanim seem the most honest, as they base their beliefs upon the One God, but care not at all about the Shortest Path (so do not censor themselves fully speaking against the 100 demon gods).  But the further truth of their belief lies in their uplifting sorcery as a gift and make theirs into priests.  Remember akka ruminating on the hypocrisy of damning the only person who can speak with the God's Voice?
Quote
So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’ --- from Bakker in the same article.
just edited and added this quote.  The inchies gave the men of eanna the tusk.  The whole tusk is a gift from the inchies.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:21 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Fane was a Shrial priest branded a heretic and banished to the desert where he went blind and experienced a series of revelations.  So the revelations came after the expulsion... 
he was probably banished for trying to stop or reveal corruption within the church. (speculation only)

Whatever the gods and demons are, there is a definate relationship between them and the things humans hold sacred and profane.  Yatwer is only scary if you oppose her - like most powerful entities.  Those who worhsip her do not do so out of fear.  Her rites and beliefs seem heavily based on ancient fertility goddess cults, hardly cthuloid demon worship.

Again, we only have the fact the Fanim disagree with the Inrithi.  How does this make them right? 
We are left with their sorcery, the psukhe, as proof.  Which is sorcery.  Useful only for destruction.  Usable by someone like Moenghus.  A tool for the passions of men.  Doesn't seem like thaumaturgy to me.  Seriously... what is uplifting about getting roasted by pretty flames, or mind-raped by self-righteous priest/mages?
Just doesn't leave a Mark, which is a distinctly different form of damnation than that suffered by those who are not of the Few.  And they still get cooked by Chorae.
I'm fairly sure that a psukhe user can be damned under the judging eye, just the same as any of the Few who never practice anagogic or gnostic sorcery...

You have the quote there about the Tusk - there is nothing to contradict what I said above.  One addition.  The rest is the standard humanistic religious rubbish about women as property and smiting your enemies etc etc.  Humans really don't need inchies to be evil, they just have to nudge them in whatever direction suits.  Note they also gave the Ketyai Chorae which aren't implicitly evil (unless you believe the nonmen, haha) and are subsequently used against the Consult hordes (another illustration of the Inchies not being very tacticly astute).

Overall, I'm not disagreeing that Inthrism is wrong and the cults are not merely more sophisticated versions of hell, but I don't see any reason to believe that the Fanim were any more correct.  We don't even know what their versions of damnation and exaltation were about.  Why shouldn't the Zeumi (Satyothi) be right instead?  They don't follow the Tusk.  What about the Scylvendi?  Or the Non-men?  Or none of the above.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:27 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Yeah I'd have to say that your reason behind Fanim being 'right' are pretty thin. There is only just barely enough vagaries in the text to make one believe that they are the one true faith, but there is no real proof. I'd agree that Inrithism is mostly made up, but who's to say that false prophesies can't become true ones? Maybe the whole world is being made into a topos via Inchies, thus making reality subjective to powerful will (like the outside).

Anyway, I can't imagine that Big Moe would have called his son all the way down from Ishual so he could lead an army into defeat. If his TTT was such that Inrithism would die out, surely his half-blood son was up for the task. He was the one that got everyone to go in the first place. Why give them a General of unparalleled intellect if the final goal was to have them all killed? Things aren't as cut and dry as you make it sound.

If I was forced to guess, I'd say that in the end everyone is going to some kind of hell and that there is salvation for no one. All religions, whether or not true/right/real, have been corrupted by some source or another (Inchoroi, Dunyain, or mundane influences), so everyone will burn. Or the Inchoroi, in a dramatic inversion, save the world by sealing it from hell and all the 144,000 sentient beings that are left live happily ever after.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:32 pm
Quote from: Ajokli
Behead those who insult Fane.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:37 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
I dunno why one would call it salvation or damnation, when it's powerful dudes with their mega ghost busters like storage containment unit that also tortures you.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:42 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
The Witness of Fane

(see Kellhus' imprompta I in TWP, quoted in the Celmomian Prophecy thread of TDTCB forum for a full refresher on how the books use the term "Witness")

Witness implies seeing.

Fane went blind in the desert.

This means either:

A) The Witness of Fane is false, because one cannot Witness without first Seeing (though not all Seeing is Witness). The very title indicts him with his lies.

B) The Witness of Fane is true, because one can only Witness when Seeing is eliminated and one sees with the Third Sight. The very title promotes his revelations of a new sight.

C) None of the Above

A suggests also that Third Sight is a form of False Sight.  B suggests that normal sight is a form of false sight.  C suggests that all forms of sight are a false sight.

The Dunyain 'see' neither with first sight nor third sight.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:48 pm
Quote from: SATXZ
If there is damnation in earwa, then there is obviously salvation.  We're told there are multiple ways to 'not go to hell' through POVs.  Thru one of the 100 gods we actually learn that they are just greater demons as the fanim do preach.  The fanim, sejanus, and kellus agree that there is a single one great god.
I don't understand the reasoning of mixing realities.  earwa is earwa, and that's all that it can be.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:53 pm
Quote from: Madness
Outside of the text, Bakker has suggested three options: Damnation, Oblivion, and Redemption.

Redemption = Salvation = Absolution in my opinion...

There is very limited evidence as to the Fanim's correctness in choices concerning metaphysics. However, we are pretty sure the Inrithi are wrong and the Fanim narrative seems to encompass the beliefs that have come before - leading us to believe they are the Righteous.

We've also been primed to believe that there is a right interpretation of Earwa.

I'll second those who've said Fanim or Unknown X - guaranteed to see some random shit that's only been mentioned or hinted at once, ever, explode in the narrative ;).
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:49:58 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Damnation does not imply salvation. Labeling something as red does not imply that something exists which is blue.
The existence of one thing doesn't necessarily prove the existence of its opposite.

If it was a fact that reading this post will damn you to hell, that does not imply that there is some way to "undamn" yourself once your read it. You may say to yourself "well thats not fair, I was just reading! I shall repent and save my soul by never reading another post, or by asking forgiveness, or by preventing others from reading it". This sounds great to you, but its imaginary. The fact is, you would be damned and now you are shit out of luck. Fair? Probably not. But some things just are.

The people in Earwa become damned, this is likely true as we have some various proofs of this (ciphrang, for example, get to nom on their summoners souls). That does not mean that once damned that you can repent or be saved, we have no proof of salvation. All we have is some various blind people telling us there is a path to salvation.

Damnation is also relative. If the choices are "suffer for eternity" and "feel nothing for eternity", then nothing (or oblivion) seems a lot like salvation. On the other hand, if your choices are "rejoice for eternity" and against 'nothing for eternity', well then it seems that oblivion is some kind of damnation. In either case the oblivion is the same, but some the label is different. Oblivion might be heaven or hell or neither depending on the existence of all three.

It is likely that the reality of damnation made people believe that they could also be saved, but this may or may not have been an invention or rationalization to stay sane. What would be the point of suffering most of your life if there was no proverbial light at the end of the tunnel? Much better to at least feel like you are doing some good, saving your soul and whatnot, rather than living in a life of endless misery.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:03 pm
Quote from: Curethan
It seems like the proposition here itself is flawed.  That belief is what causes damnation seems an erroneous assumption.  Belief informs action and judgement, but it seems that it is actions that damn.  Sorcerers are damned no matter their intent.  Enduring suffering is redemptive in and of itself - Serwe provides explicit proof of this. 
Now, if nationwide beliefs condone practices that cause individual damnation (perhaps an example might be slavery) then yes, whole nations can be damned. 
But no religon can provide a belief system that would mean every individual would be redeemed.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.

Just a personal opinion, but I'm pretty sure that every cultural edifice in Earwa is likely to include beliefs that can easily lead to damnation.

Secondly there is this assumption that Ciphrang feed on souls.  This doesn't tally with the evidence presented.  Damnation is eternal, the soul suffers forever, based on the actions and resultant judgement that have caused said damnation.  Ciphrang appear to 'feed' on negative emotions - suffering, remorse, guilt and the like - causing the souls they possess to experience unimaginable horrors for ever.  Critical point here is that angelic Ciphrang also exist.  So logic dictates that they 'feed' on positive emotions - love, contedeness etc, no?  And therefore the outside would contain dimensions where souls reside with the intent of provoking these emotions for eternity...
 
So why should there not be Ciphrang of all stripes, those who feed on alll kinds of emotional qualities that can be judged?  Perhaps the hundred Gods should be veiwed in this light?  Not your typical demons, but neither are they forces of niceness.  So many hells, why not a hundred different versions of heaven too? 

The other option - oblivion - is either about escaping judgement or the eternal after-life.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:09 pm
Quote from: SATXZ
Thanks madness for clarification of the three options for souls in earwa.

wilshire, I'm sticking to earwa in the discussion.

curethan, I don't remember anything other than the tusk and inchies(who made the tusk) damning all sorcerers. Chish sorcerers have no blighted mark of damnation, neither did the sorcerer from the false sun short story. 
About angelic ciphrang, I can only remember hearing about that here on the forums. Where was that stated?

Just as another quick statement, I really would rather just speak of damnation, oblivion, and salvation as they occur in earwa.  I don't want to get to much off topic, so another topic could created by y'all to speak of what you thought was started in philosophy class.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:15 pm
Quote from: Curethan
The remark about angelic Ciphrang came from another Bakker interview iirc - I think it was with Pat's Fantasy Hotlist but I can't provide a link right now.

Don't confuse the Mark of Sorcery with the mark of damnation.  Inanimate objects can bear the Mark after sorcery is performed which kinda nullifies the idea that it is the same as the mark of damnation.
Mimara confirms they are seperate things multiple times in POV.  And Titirga bore the Mark, but it's quality was different.  ;)

The idea that sorcery causes damnation goes back well before the inchies even arrived amongst the five tribes, presumably because that's how it looks to those who can aprehend the onta.  The non-men seemed to think they could avoid damnation by 'hiding their voices' but the implication is that by not doing so, damnation becomes more or less inevitable as a result of using sorcery.  As you say though, there is no proof that sorcery in itself really does cause damnation, indeed quotes from Zaranthius in-text present arguements against it, but neither is the Mark a guarantee of damnation - that's something only the JE provides.

I'll just reprint the quote Madness was refering to here, because I think it's context is important.
Quote
there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies.
Connect that with the above extrapolations about sorcery and I think it seems likely that sorcery is one of the acts that attracts the interest of these agencies (the Nonman term for gods and demons).  The Daimos presents an explicit example where the act becomes a transaction.

Btw, I think it's quite explicit that the Tusk is engraved with Kunniat beliefs and stories with ONE ADDITION - the condemnation of nonmen.  It's funny, because I was speculating that the Inchies manipulated Inrithism to include the persecution of sorcerers and nonmen shortly before that interveiw came out, so I can see where you are coming from ;)

I think an interesting question to arise from this discussion is whether Akka believes he is damned because of Inrithi tradition or whether it is related to his knowledge of metaphysics.
Khellus briefly convinces him that he can be redeemed in TTT but he's back to being convinced he is damned in AE.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:22 pm
Quote from: Madness
At this point, it's mute whether Bakker was telling the truth or not, Curethan. He's sufficiently derailed other discussions, of alternate descriptions. There's nothing stopping him from giving us evidence that the Inchoroi are the only ones who authorialised sorcery as generally damned, that also being a False additive, in the future.

Especially, as he's specifically primed us to some purpose.

We know Nonmen aren't universally Damned but we also know that every religion is a response to a partially false document - excepting, of course, that we don't know anything about the Laws of the Fanimry or how they treat similar issues.

In TUC, this is going to become a contemporary discussion - Serwa seems to believe Zaudunyani Inrithism and seems to have prejudice based on that, as of Wilshire's Ch. 3 Excerpt.

The only thing that will save her is her respect for the Quya.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:29 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to be a corrective dick Madness, but I believe the term is 'moot'.

Furthermore I believe that if you are going to use a quote to support an arguement, then you need to pay attention to the context. 
You can't just assert the half the statement is true but the other half is a lie and expect your arguement to be accepted.

I'm not even arguing that the rest of the Tusk is correct.  For example, why would whores be damned when they pretty much have a patron Diety?
Indeed, my arguement hinges on asking why Fanimry should be correct. 
The counter is that the Inchies interfered with the Tusk and that Cishurim don't bear a mark.  So what?
The Mark doesn't equate to damnation, and most of the Tusk is based on pre-existing Tribal mythos.
Honest superstition doesn't seem any better or worse than contrived beliefs aimed at exterminating Nonmen, so why should Fanimry be the truth?

I'm saying that probably nobody is universally damned (except - maybe - Sorcerers) and that while cultural and religious beliefs have a strong bearing on the path to and form of damnation that redemption is an equally mutable state. 
I reject that all Fanim go to heaven and everyone else is damned.  I don't think anyone has it right, because it's metaphysics -not science- it is dependant on perspectives.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:35 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Well to quiet your worrying friend, apply all the logic from my last comment and apply it to Earwa. In stead of "you" replace with  "a subject of earwa". There we go, all fixed up, just thought that bit was obvious.

At any rate, the point remains the same. Fane wasn't more or less right than anyone else, just another prophet from the desert (which is where they all come from anyways).



I do think that most of what we know about damnation is wrong. Like curethan said, the mark is no indication of damnation and the Cish not having the mark is just a happy coincidence. I do disagree a bit though, as I feel like there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to be saved. Few, if any at all, actually know what category they fall into.

 The Inchoroi with their inverse fire know only that being damned is quite unpleasant (thus the whole sealing the world thing).
 The Cish can do some scrying of the outside as well, and they say they know of the hundred, but this doesn't prove any actual knowledge of damnation but rather just shows they know a bit more about the gods than others.
 The Inrithi don't know much of anything, though they are sure of their righteousness, but so is everyone else so who cares.
 The Tusk says sorcerers are damned, but again so what? Its an artifact given to a group of superstitious natives for the purpose of getting rid of the Nonmen. Its entirely possible that they already believed that sorcerers where damned.

 Also consider that the oldest tribal leaders (way before the tusk) where Shaman, meaning religious leaders and wielders of magic. This leads me to believe that someone or some group got upset that they couldn't see the onta and could therefore not obtain the highest rank in their tribe, so a few years of subterfuge and bam- suddenly there are a bunch of Shaman out of jobs because guess what? Turns out that they are devils and are going to hell.

Maybe it could be that there will be some kind of "right" and "wrong" reviled, and whole nations will end up damned for believe the wrong thing. For example if the Ordeal is false, all the participants will be damned.

Or maybe the belief that one is, or should be, damned, is the driving force of actually becoming damned. Self fulfilling prophesy of sorts.

So far the JE hasn't showed us much proof of whole nations being damned, as Mimara has spent her life in a brothel and wandering through the woods with a group of murderers. She will probably provide us with some kind of evidence later on about who is or isn't damned, but she won't be able to fully understand it and it will again be left to us to debate what it was she saw.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:40 pm
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
......I do think that most of what we know about damnation is wrong. Like curethan said, the mark is no indication of damnation and the Cish not having the mark is just a happy coincidence.  ......
I don't remember any coincidences in the entire series.  To be fully honest, I don't believe many authors allow wasteful coincidence into their books very often. 
But onto the point of the actual fictional piece.  It is not coincidence that the Cish are sorcercerors, priests, they believe in the solitary god, and they leave NO MARK.
On the mark showing damnation, the greater the blight of a sorcerors mark, the more damned they are.  This is stated clearly dozens of times throughout the series.

....The Cish can do some scrying of the outside as well, and they say they know of the hundred, but this doesn't prove any actual knowledge of damnation but rather just shows they know a bit more about the gods than others.....
We have one of the hundred admitting the 100 gods are just greater demons using souls to their own desires.  They consider soul slavery for eternity to a greater demon damnation.  I do too.
 ....
 The Tusk says sorcerers are damned, but again so what? Its an artifact given to a group of superstitious natives for the purpose of getting rid of the Nonmen. Its entirely possible that they already believed that sorcerers where damned.....
Their beliefs were changed by outside sources (inchies/rapeyliens.)

 Also consider that the oldest tribal leaders (way before the tusk) where Shaman, meaning religious leaders and wielders of magic. This leads me to believe that someone or some group got upset that they couldn't see the onta and could therefore not obtain the highest rank in their tribe, so a few years of subterfuge and bam- suddenly there are a bunch of Shaman out of jobs because guess what? Turns out that they are devils and are going to hell.
This statement here disagrees with that above, but it has been laid out that the tusk was given to the tribes of men for specifically two reasons.  Men did not believe thus before the Tusk.

Maybe it could be that there will be some kind of "right" and "wrong" reviled, and whole nations will end up damned for believe the wrong thing. For example if the Ordeal is false, all the participants will be damned.
- There is no nationwide shared soul.  Souls are individualy assessed.

Or maybe the belief that one is, or should be, damned, is the driving force of actually becoming damned. Self fulfilling prophesy of sorts.

So far the JE hasn't showed us much proof of whole nations being damned, as Mimara has spent her life in a brothel and wandering through the woods with a group of murderers. She will probably provide us with some kind of evidence later on about who is or isn't damned, but she won't be able to fully understand it and it will again be left to us to debate what it was she saw.
Yes, souls are not shared.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:46 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
1) Just because you don't recall something doesn't mean it wasn't there.
2) The text is prone to error and the characters are fallible, even the glossary in the back has misleading information. Anything said by anyone may or my not be true. Because of this, the reader must decide for him/herself what is true and what is false. Anything that seems obvious is probably just a very narrow reading of the text which allows the reader to simplify things that are otherwise too complicated for them to consider.
3) It is stated at least once that everyone shares a soul. Remember the whole thing regarding people's souls being oceans that go inward.
4) Heaven is a kind of soul slavery, but it isn't normally considered damnation. It isn't who owns your soul, but rather what they do with it.
5) The Tusk didn't change any beliefs other than the Nonman thing, nor would that address the idea that their beliefs about sorcery are wrong to begin with.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:51 pm
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
1) Just because you don't recall something doesn't mean it wasn't there.
I'm sorry, I was being sarcastic.  More clearly then, there is no such thing as coincidence.  Especially in a book.

2) The text is prone to error and the characters are fallible, even the glossary in the back has misleading information. Anything said by anyone may or my not be true. Because of this, the reader must decide for him/herself what is true and what is false. Anything that seems obvious is probably just a very narrow reading of the text which allows the reader to simplify things that are otherwise too complicated for them to consider.
Reading a fictional series hardly calls for advanced critical thinking skills.  But I guess some people believe themselves superior for alot of funny reasons out there.  I guess it helps their personal self esteem. 
And for complicated, I haven't seen anybody out there come up with this topic excepting myself.  I had not heard anybody think outside the box that possibly this entire story will conclude with the first religion being destroyed in the series ends with them being RIGHT.  I thought my reasoning was more in line with bakkers writing thus far.

3) It is stated at least once that everyone shares a soul. Remember the whole thing regarding people's souls being oceans that go inward.
A dunyain says this.  That everyone is part of THE GODS soul.  Souls are individual, and his own evidence gives this reason.  But hey, you said nothing in a book can be trusted in the book we're talking about (weird, but it's not my logic)

4) Heaven is a kind of soul slavery, but it isn't normally considered damnation. It isn't who owns your soul, but rather what they do with it.
I was more stating what the Cish say of the 100, and the 100 concede as true.  If a demon controls you, then you probably aren't in heaven is my reasoning.

5) The Tusk didn't change any beliefs other than the Nonman thing, nor would that address the idea that their beliefs about sorcery are wrong to begin with.
So which is it to you?  Are all sorcerors damned or not?  But then here we go again circle logic style....don't trust anything in the book we're reading.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:50:56 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
......I do think that most of what we know about damnation is wrong. Like curethan said, the mark is no indication of damnation and the Cish not having the mark is just a happy coincidence.  ......
I don't remember any coincidences in the entire series.  To be fully honest, I don't believe many authors allow wasteful coincidence into their books very often. 
But onto the point of the actual fictional piece.  It is not coincidence that the Cish are sorcercerors, priests, they believe in the solitary god, and they leave NO MARK.
On the mark showing damnation, the greater the blight of a sorcerors mark, the more damned they are.  This is stated clearly dozens of times throughout the series.
No, it isn't.  It is intentionaly ambiguous.
Again. Start from your assumption.
Why do inamanimate objects bear the mark?  Are they damned?  Why can only sorcerers see the Mark?  Why do chorae destroy Cish?  Why does damnation look different to the Judging eye?

Surely the 'coincidence' that Cish magic is undetectable to gnostic/anagogic sorcery is important to the plot of PON in more fundamental ways...  i.e. the Saik and SS assuming the Cish are responsible for Skin Spies, the Cish asuming the SS were responsible for the Skin Spies, the way the Cish assasinated the SS grandmaster, the fact that both sides of the religious conflict have sorcerers etc etc etc.

Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
....The Cish can do some scrying of the outside as well, and they say they know of the hundred, but this doesn't prove any actual knowledge of damnation but rather just shows they know a bit more about the gods than others.....
We have one of the hundred admitting the 100 gods are just greater demons using souls to their own desires.  They consider soul slavery for eternity to a greater demon damnation.  I do too.
And here is your unreliability. In the same conversation, Psatma (who is, btw, not Yatwer) asserts that Yatwer is the Goddess several times.  She also names Khellus as Demon and the Psukhe as deviltry.  Just because you latch onto the part where she says
Quote
"Demon?  Yes! I worship a demon! - if it pleases you to call her such."
  doesn't make it black and white.
I see it as confirmation that the Hundred are similar to Demons, as non-men are similar to sranc.  Again, recall that there are angelic Ciphrang.  How do these fit in your vision of black and white?
Quote
"The fat shall be eaten, of course.  But the high holy?  The faithful?  They shall be celebrated!"
Implies that a different fate awaits the faithful.  Something that they would call... redemption.
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
....
 The Tusk says sorcerers are damned, but again so what? Its an artifact given to a group of superstitious natives for the purpose of getting rid of the Nonmen. Its entirely possible that they already believed that sorcerers where damned.....
Their beliefs were changed by outside sources (inchies/rapeyliens.)

 Also consider that the oldest tribal leaders (way before the tusk) where Shaman, meaning religious leaders and wielders of magic. This leads me to believe that someone or some group got upset that they couldn't see the onta and could therefore not obtain the highest rank in their tribe, so a few years of subterfuge and bam- suddenly there are a bunch of Shaman out of jobs because guess what? Turns out that they are devils and are going to hell.
This statement here disagrees with that above, but it has been laid out that the tusk was given to the tribes of men for specifically two reasons.  Men did not believe thus before the Tusk.
Specifically, one reason.  That is what you quoted earlier clearly states.  Stop adding sorcery just because you want it to be so.

Quote from: SATXZ
Quote from: Wilshire
Maybe it could be that there will be some kind of "right" and "wrong" reviled, and whole nations will end up damned for believe the wrong thing. For example if the Ordeal is false, all the participants will be damned.
- There is no nationwide shared soul.  Souls are individualy assessed.

Or maybe the belief that one is, or should be, damned, is the driving force of actually becoming damned. Self fulfilling prophesy of sorts.

So far the JE hasn't showed us much proof of whole nations being damned, as Mimara has spent her life in a brothel and wandering through the woods with a group of murderers. She will probably provide us with some kind of evidence later on about who is or isn't damned, but she won't be able to fully understand it and it will again be left to us to debate what it was she saw.
Yes, souls are not shared.

History and culture determines individual action.  Major theme and not that hard to grasp guys...  c'mon.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:51:02 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to be a corrective dick Madness, but I believe the term is 'moot'.

Furthermore I believe that if you are going to use a quote to support an arguement, then you need to pay attention to the context. 
You can't just assert the half the statement is true but the other half is a lie and expect your arguement to be accepted.

No worries, of course, Curethan. I appreciate the correction. By the way, I'm confused. I read through my last couple posts and I'm not sure I offered any argument except in trying to make the statement that Bakker could retract, retcon, or otherwise expand on the Nonmen are False being the only addition - he dropped that bomb (confirmed suspicions) to prime us in some way for TUC, which we know from Wilshire's summary, includes meditations on treating Nonmen as Damned simply based on the Tusk. There is simply nothing to stop Bakker from withholding the truth of other "additions," at this time.

Could you quote me otherwise so I can address my fallacies :)?

Also, mediation/meditation moment? Everyone take some deep breaths? Check your biased heuristics ;)?
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:51:08 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
I think DOTG is one of the easiest books to promote.

There's an interesting bit latter in the book I'll spoiler because it aught to be experienced raw
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:51:14 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
Could you quote me otherwise so I can address my fallacies :)?

I was refering to SATZ's arguement there.  ;)
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:51:35 pm
Quote from: Madness
Callan, did you mean to post the above in the Disseminating Bakker thread?

Curethan, the referrals tripped me up. Just checking :).
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 08:51:41 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
We do get an interior glimpse into the Fanim world in The Aspect-Emperor, Tattooed Hand. Like I say, in the historical narrative sections, I resort to quasi-racist cliches and types, both heroic and otherwise, trying to mix up assumptions, and to indirectly show how arbitrary and self-serving they actually are, even if they seem 'fair and balanced' to those sharing the selfsame prejudices.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Triskele on August 24, 2014, 08:26:42 pm
You know what I find kind of interesting about that quote from Bakker in 2005 is that I really don't feel like we've seen much "interior glimpse into the Fanim world" in the first two Aspect-Emperor books.  So I'm left to wonder if this implies that there will be significantly more in the next book or if what little we've been given is what he was thinking of or if plans changed a bit. 

We've basically just seen Fanayal's hangout through Malo's perspective, and that's about it.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Aural on August 24, 2014, 10:03:09 pm
Perhaps Meppa is how all Cishaurim are?
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Triskele on August 24, 2014, 10:25:40 pm
Perhaps Meppa is how all Cishaurim are?

What do you mean by this?  Simply that Bakker's quote could have just meant "there's going to be a Cishaurim character" and nothing more?
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: mrganondorf on August 25, 2014, 10:56:22 am
He's definitely been hoarding secrets about the Cishaurim!  Gosh, I really hadn't thought about if Meppa is not a special Cishaurim.  Leave it to Bakker to be able to insinuate some kind of interpretation that blinded the reader to the truth!

I can't remember, did the meaning of # of snakes ever get figured out?  I think Moeghus had 3 when he spoke with Xerius, 2 when he talked to Kellhus, but the Cishaurim at Mengedda had 5 each?
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 25, 2014, 11:56:01 am
We've had 100% more insight into Fanayal and Meppa's organization than in PoN, surely.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Aural on August 25, 2014, 01:35:06 pm
What do you mean by this?  Simply that Bakker's quote could have just meant "there's going to be a Cishaurim character" and nothing more?

I meant that maybe all Cishaurim are amnesiac sidekicks.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Triskele on August 25, 2014, 08:21:32 pm
We've had 100% more insight into Fanayal and Meppa's organization than in PoN, surely.

I guess I'm sort of asking if that quote of his was just referring to what we've seen so far in the two AE books.  I don't know exactly how to quantify it, but it doesn't feel to me like it's been all that much. 

Quote
I meant that maybe all Cishaurim are amnesiac sidekicks.

Interesting.  I had not considered that, but we do know of at least one Cishaurim that is clearly not an amnesiac:  Moenghus
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Wilshire on September 05, 2014, 05:19:48 pm
Maybe that is what made Moenghus weak? His dunyain training prevented him from releasing his memories, basically surrendering to the Darkness, and that somehow stopped him from being able to connect with the required emotions to bear water properly.
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: mrganondorf on September 05, 2014, 06:43:40 pm
Maybe that is what made Moenghus weak? His dunyain training prevented him from releasing his memories, basically surrendering to the Darkness, and that somehow stopped him from being able to connect with the required emotions to bear water properly.

Maybe that's it!  The psukhe is indistinguishable from the work of God because the Cishaurim have surrended to God, commit no acts of sorcery except exactly what the God wills? 

Dunyain can't forget vs Nonman can't remember?
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Wilshire on September 10, 2014, 02:02:38 am
Dunyain can't forget vs Nonman can't remember?

Hmm maybe, but then wouldn't the Erratic be some of the best Psukari if they just had a tutor?
Title: Re: Fane was right
Post by: Garet Jax on September 10, 2014, 03:41:49 pm
The psukhe is indistinguishable from the work of God because the Cishaurim have surrended to God, commit no acts of sorcery except exactly what the God wills? 

This.