The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The No-God => Topic started by: MSJ on November 09, 2017, 03:29:35 pm

Title: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on November 09, 2017, 03:29:35 pm
This thread has grown from another thread and would like to know what you guys expect. Why you expect it. And, ultimately, what would be best for Bakker, the author. See, we have a good example what happens when an author veers from his usual content, to that of full on philosophical musings. Insert Steve Erickson, who has had his 3rd and final installment of the Kharkanas Trilogy discontinued. And, I would hope that Bakker not leave so much on the table as he did in TUC. Example- The Akka and Kellhus meeting. Wow. I was expecting some huge reveals and it was set up nicely, only to have Kellhus shrug and walk away. Bad form in my opinion.

I love Bakker and his writing. And, I am sure that Bakker is a good, decent human being. But, a hard-headed one at that. I think he needs to drift from the desolation of a world to that where Mankind can survive, barely. Its not a whole lot of hope and quite frankly a small amount of redemption, if any. The plot has been set up as to where this can happen. And, after the loss, or rather I say it's of so many Bakker fans at the end of TUC (which I don't get, because after reflection, I feel it was done splendidly), and further his AMA comments, which I don't understand the venomous outlash at that.

He needs to bounce back with something new, but the same ol'Bakker style. He did say he was for the first time in his life a discovery writer. Which, regardless of how so many here feel, I think a little girl of his might have an impact on what he thinks human are capable of and what he would want humankind to do.

In short, I think we'll get the same Bakker. Great prose, description top notch, better than anyone I've read and a continue to build a world with so much intrigue and mystery that its had me on this board for 5 years discussing and dissecting.

So please, offer your take on all that I have. Your reasons, why you might think this or that would happen. And, I would love for textual evidence to be sighted. Just not what you would want, but if its what you want, where that's backed up in the story.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TLEILAXU on November 09, 2017, 04:55:32 pm
First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.
Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on November 09, 2017, 05:18:12 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.
Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.-

Great post, what I am looking for, maybe a prediction or two. ;)  Always love crazy ( crazy as within textual evidence its possible. But get as crazy as you like. ;)

I disagree, whole heartedly with most if not all of complaints on Bakker's prose. Example: whe I read TUC, its like every sentence, in some cases words were jam packed full of meaning. His descriptions make me not feel like I'm there, but rather I can feel what its like to be there. Not something a lot of writers can do. However, I agree on the editing. Good lord!
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TaoHorror on November 09, 2017, 05:42:04 pm

MSJ - the first sentence in your 2 posts appear to contradict ( the first seems to be asking what we want to see and the second what we predict ). So I'll respond to each:

I have no expectation for the ( final? ) books, though I started a thread with a humorous prediction of ending, but didn't garner much contribution ( I can't even remember what I said ). Bakker is simply too unknowable for me to have any guess at what he's planning to cook up. Just a shot in the dark, I think he will explore this whole who can see what stuff and a baby will be born in spite of the womb plague as an entity invisible to TNG ... if the gods cannot see TNG, stands to reason TNG can't see stuff either. Outside of the outside of the outside if you will ... which make sense in terms of infinity.

What I would like is more clarity on the ending of TUC. The Shae is dead feels like a manipulation/misdirection given his TFS story.

EDIT: I'm adding to my thoughts here ... I'm looking forward to some VERY cool horrific scenes of mass murder!
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: stuslayer on November 09, 2017, 06:54:06 pm
Mimara's baby will give the Gods a new perspective and allow them to 'see' the NG. Full on divine battles and world-rending apocalyptic events ensue. Humanity brought to the brink of extinction, and in trying to keep the world open, the Gods seal it shut.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Frail on November 15, 2017, 12:10:41 pm
PLOT: I would like to see a few POV from characters from different nations that experience TNG's awakening. People forming alliances around whether Kellhus was a *false prophet or a martyr. I would like Akka Mimara and Esmi to have some meaningful impact on the rest of the story. I want to see TNG destroy a city or nation and have a POV character flee that event.

GENERAL: More reflections of events and characters causing events rather than larger than life things just... happening. Not that the latter is worse, but PoN felt more grounded.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2017, 05:30:04 pm
And, I would hope that Bakker not leave so much on the table as he did in TUC. Example- The Akka and Kellhus meeting. Wow. I was expecting some huge reveals and it was set up nicely, only to have Kellhus shrug and walk away. Bad form in my opinion.

I actually thought the anticlimactic nature of that scene perfect, except Bakker shouldn't have italicized "fell to his knees" (too overt a call back for long-term readers, in my opinion).

The only thing left untied there, so far as I'm concerned, is why Kellhus was interested in Achamian's changing Dreams.

He needs to bounce back with something new, but the same ol'Bakker style. He did say he was for the first time in his life a discovery writer. Which, regardless of how so many here feel, I think a little girl of his might have an impact on what he thinks human are capable of and what he would want humankind to do.

I think his "discovery writer" comments have to do with TNG directly. After all, we could argue that all his shorts and standalones were written in "discovery" mode, though - as per what's available - that might not seem a positive indication.

First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.

Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.

An editor at all is better than no editor. At Zaudunyanicon he mentioned that Overlook actually just outsourced his editing for TGO/TUC after the longtime editor familiar with his books quit circa new year 2014.

Also, he didn't specifically say either that "Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA" or in the text. He simply commented twice that readers seemed to have "missed something" (bp). It was jurble and a number of others here and at Westeros who created this possession narrative.

Otherwise, at Zaudunyanicon we were given a big ol' RAFO regarding Shauriatas' fate.

Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Dora Vee on November 18, 2017, 06:08:26 pm
Quote
Bakker shouldn't have italicized "fell to his knees" (too overt a call back for long-term readers, in my opinion).

I don't think that was a call-back, but rather Achamian willing to do whatever it takes to save Proyas. :(
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on November 18, 2017, 06:27:01 pm
Quote from: Dora Vee
I don't think that was a call-back, but rather Achamian willing to do whatever it takes to save Proyas. :(

Ummm, call back all the way. When Akka refutes Kellhus and Kellhus says, "You will kneel", its nothing but a call back. Everyone had been waiting on that moment. Wether it was for Proyas's sake doesn't matter.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Dora Vee on November 18, 2017, 06:53:39 pm
Oh yea, fair enough. I do remember the end of TTT. Just that, I can see why it was emphasized.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2017, 07:04:53 pm
Yeah. We've been quoting that line and wondering when it would come back around since... fuck, long before this forum existed.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TLEILAXU on November 18, 2017, 10:07:37 pm
And, I would hope that Bakker not leave so much on the table as he did in TUC. Example- The Akka and Kellhus meeting. Wow. I was expecting some huge reveals and it was set up nicely, only to have Kellhus shrug and walk away. Bad form in my opinion.

I actually thought the anticlimactic nature of that scene perfect, except Bakker shouldn't have italicized "fell to his knees" (too overt a call back for long-term readers, in my opinion).

The only thing left untied there, so far as I'm concerned, is why Kellhus was interested in Achamian's changing Dreams.

He needs to bounce back with something new, but the same ol'Bakker style. He did say he was for the first time in his life a discovery writer. Which, regardless of how so many here feel, I think a little girl of his might have an impact on what he thinks human are capable of and what he would want humankind to do.

I think his "discovery writer" comments have to do with TNG directly. After all, we could argue that all his shorts and standalones were written in "discovery" mode, though - as per what's available - that might not seem a positive indication.

First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.

Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.

An editor at all is better than no editor. At Zaudunyanicon he mentioned that Overlook actually just outsourced his editing for TGO/TUC after the longtime editor familiar with his books quit circa new year 2014.

Also, he didn't specifically say either that "Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA" or in the text. He simply commented twice that readers seemed to have "missed something" (bp). It was jurble and a number of others here and at Westeros who created this possession narrative.

Otherwise, at Zaudunyanicon we were given a big ol' RAFO regarding Shauriatas' fate.
He did say
Quote
Do we know the fate of Shauriatis?
and never directly refused the possession narrative which I take as a semi-sanctioning of this narrative.
DO RAFOs apply to future novels as well? Coz' then at least I can hope that Shaeönanra's fate will be elucidated at some point.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on November 19, 2017, 07:37:22 pm
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
So, I separate the work and Bakker's intent for said work. Right now I'm only discussing his intent when we talk themes of the series.

But intent means jack shit if its not conveyed in the text.

Question? How many readers or what % even know anything about Bakker's Crash Space theory? 1%, 5% maybe 10%? It has to be conveyed in the text thoroughly for it to be discussed. Its why we had so many fans upset about resolutions they were sure to come to pass. Bakker's comments didn't help, at all. Made it worse, tbh.

I understand its what your into. But, 99% of readers could care less. And, if you think I give 2 cents about what Academia thinks about my thoughts, well, there's a dark hole they can shove your thoughts into. (I'm not trying to be rude, but this is a fan site, not Academia Bakker 101).
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on November 19, 2017, 07:44:26 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
DO RAFOs apply to future novels as well? Coz' then at least I can hope that Shaeönanra's fate will be elucidated at some point.

RAFO= Read and find out.
So, of course RAFO's mean that it will be discussed in later books
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on November 19, 2017, 08:56:42 pm
Quote from:  Madness
I think his "discovery writer" comments have to do with TNG directly. After all, we could argue that all his shorts and standalones were written in "discovery" mode, though - as per what's available - that might not seem a positive indication.

I think your confused as to my comment. I meant that TNG is when his discovery writing will begin. I don't read much on his blog, so not all that well versed in his attitude on humanity and such.

I know, as Wilshire stated, there hasn't been a whole lot of hope in any of TSA so far. For some reason, I expect that to change. Call it a gut-feeling! ;)

It won't be a hope like, say, LotR. It will be bleak and dark with smidgen of hope thrown in. Just my thoughts and here's why. TUC was the culmination of a teenager/early 20's Bakker and his bleak outlook on life and his spirituality. Guess what has changed since then? He's married and has a little girl. And, sirs and ma'am's let me tell you what a daughter does to a dad. They make you weak. They make you want to do anything to make sure they live the best life possible. They give you hope.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Rots on November 20, 2017, 11:27:59 pm
I wish that there was no TNG coming out. Im fine with where/how it all ended. Sometimes, the Dragon should win. I hope that there is no redemption. Id certainly welcome a bunch of atrocity tales and stuff like that but as far as another series, im good. I mean ill buy it if it comes out but i will not be longing for it.

So, i will not make any predictions other than there will be things that are clear to RSB but sadly all too ambiguous to the rest of us. And then RSB can tell us that we are missing something obvious and then cue lots of clueless speculation.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Madness on November 21, 2017, 03:46:16 pm
He did say
Quote
Do we know the fate of Shauriatis?
and never directly refused the possession narrative which I take as a semi-sanctioning of this narrative.
DO RAFOs apply to future novels as well? Coz' then at least I can hope that Shaeönanra's fate will be elucidated at some point.

I think so.

Quote from:  Madness
I think his "discovery writer" comments have to do with TNG directly. After all, we could argue that all his shorts and standalones were written in "discovery" mode, though - as per what's available - that might not seem a positive indication.

I think your confused as to my comment. I meant that TNG is when his discovery writing will begin. I don't read much on his blog, so not all that well versed in his attitude on humanity and such.

Yeah, that's just not true. Disciple, Neuropath, any Atrocity Tales, all "discovery writing," whether that bodes well for TNG or not.

The only piece I could argue that he had even half as much *vision* for as he did for TSA is LTG.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TLEILAXU on November 21, 2017, 07:40:27 pm
Alright guys, I was unsure if RAFO meant "read harder noob" or "wait until next novel scrub".
I have a good feeling about the discovery writing. Hope we'll get to see how the world turns more Dûnyainish.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Lonnie Slidell on November 30, 2017, 07:28:23 pm
My sense, which admittedly comes from reading most if not all of Three Pound Brain, is that it is important if not essential to a sound understanding of the Second Apocalypse:

"Storytelling is my primary means of sounding these darker possibilities. The centerpiece of my project is The Second Apocalypse, the tale of a monastic outcast who rises from obscurity to shake the world. Through flawed gazes and broken hearts I try to paint a canvas as savage and sage as those rendered by my adolescent idols, Howard, Herbert, and Tolkien. I’ve lived with this story for thirty years now (!) and I’m pretty sure I’ll never have a better one to tell. “Perhaps the best fantasy series written in the past decade…” The Atlantic.com recently declared.  And I’m just getting to the interesting bits now.

Three Pound Brain is my secondary means of sounding these questions, a kind of philosophical scrapbook where I try to make theoretical sense of what seems to be happening—the nature of the biological, social, and technological processes behind our ongoing ‘semantic apocalypse.’" (From the 'About' page of Three Pound Brain)

I think the thirty-year story reached its conclusion with the destruction of the Great Ordeal.  With "The No-God" he is going to have to go beyond what he dreamed up as a teenager, thus the 'discovery.'  I think Three Pound Brain gives a sense of how Scott sees the world becoming, and to the extent that he sees both Earwa and this world coming to apocalypse it sees likely that he sees them converging.  I expect Earwa to become disenchanted.   I would not be surprised if by the end of this next cycle of books Earwa is mundane , in the Xanth sense of the word.  The events of the Second Apocalypse would become Scripture, but as can be the case with (for example) the Bible and the Koran, misremembered or misconstrued.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Wilshire on December 06, 2017, 06:45:24 pm
Yeah, that pretty much matches up with my understanding.

Though I would point out that Earwa is already the old scripture of our world, so that Earwa becomes disenchanted is pretty much a foregone conclusion. After all, the Consult have always won, what remains seen is if its now or sometime in the future ;). FWIW though, I doubt TNG will go that far into the future to where we see it disenchanted.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Old Gnostic Fool on January 02, 2018, 04:25:11 am
All I can say is that I hope Bakker doesn't compromise his vision. If his intent is to give us a truly bleak ending, I hope he carries through with it.

Tolkien already wrote what could be described as the darkest work of fantasy so the notion isn't unprecedented. I'm talking about the Silmarillion and the events that transpire at the end of the First Age. Sure, it's not the ultimate endpoint, but it marks a major shift.

P.S.: Erikson's Kharkanas trilogy isn't cancelled. It's been put on hold till after the first Toblakai novel.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: GorraShatan on April 11, 2018, 09:39:07 pm
I'm hoping for some sort of hope or future for the Nonmen, and that RSB doesn't take things so dark as to be boring (two straight chapters of cannibalism for the Ordeal was a bit much).
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Wilshire on April 12, 2018, 07:40:54 pm
Re: Cannibalism: It was a part of 2 chapters, but hardly more than a couple paragraphs total. Point taken though.

I for one hope we don't have to sit through a bunch of desert marching scenes. Between TSA and MBOTF I've had enough for at least one lifetime, I think.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on April 13, 2018, 01:03:05 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
I for one hope we don't have to sit through a bunch of desert marching scenes. Between TSA and MBOTF I've had enough for at least one lifetime, I think.

Seconded. Lol.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: H on April 13, 2018, 02:20:40 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
I for one hope we don't have to sit through a bunch of desert marching scenes. Between TSA and MBOTF I've had enough for at least one lifetime, I think.

Seconded. Lol.

Nah, the whole book will just be a march across a desert.  This time Carathay.  Pack your canteens boys.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Wilshire on April 13, 2018, 02:30:22 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
I for one hope we don't have to sit through a bunch of desert marching scenes. Between TSA and MBOTF I've had enough for at least one lifetime, I think.

Seconded. Lol.

Nah, the whole book will just be a march across a desert.  This time Carathay.  Pack your canteens boys.

D:
I'm not going to pretend like I won't read it, but I would be disappointed by the setting lol. I'd prefer the Mop again - a fraught march through heavy jungle/forest.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Madness on April 13, 2018, 04:22:11 pm
Battle of the Teutoburg Forest analogue would be incredibly cool.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: natanaj on April 14, 2018, 03:43:39 pm
Well if it can be anything, then i want the projenitors to send another ship to earth filled with inchoroi. I was not satisfied with how aurang's arc ended, and araux is a coward.

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Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TaoHorror on April 15, 2018, 01:47:39 am
Well if it can be anything, then i want the projenitors to send another ship to earth filled with inchoroi. I was not satisfied with how aurang's arc ended, and araux is a coward.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

Well, they were just tools ( weapons ) after all ... can't expect too much of them. Inchoroi don't kill people, humans do.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: natanaj on April 15, 2018, 10:42:16 pm
Well if it can be anything, then i want the projenitors to send another ship to earth filled with inchoroi. I was not satisfied with how aurang's arc ended, and araux is a coward.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

Well, they were just tools ( weapons ) after all ... can't expect too much of them. Inchoroi don't kill people, humans do.
True. I was just dissapointed with Aurangs death i guess. Kindof wish Aurax died and he lived.

Maybe Aurax will be more interesting in the No-God though.

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Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Wilshire on April 17, 2018, 05:37:49 pm
Battle of the Teutoburg Forest analogue would be incredibly cool.

*googles reference*
"one of the most decisive battles recorded in military history,[5][6][7][8][9] and as "a turning-point in world history" "
Very cool. Yeah, lets do that.

Well if it can be anything, then i want the projenitors to send another ship to earth filled with inchoroi. I was not satisfied with how aurang's arc ended, and araux is a coward.

That's kind of the point though, isn't it? That the Big Bad Wolf turns out to be a puppy, and Grandma turns out to be a sociopathic cannibal lol. (ie the real evil is humanity rather than some monster).
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Cuttlefish on April 18, 2018, 07:02:36 pm
A strong, central Dunyain character to lead the series would be boss. Dunyain made this series of books for me, and if Achamian, his child or Mimara is to lead the last set of books, I'll be gravely disappointed. Crabicus to the rescue! Also, on that point, more on the origins of the Dunyain; why they've adopted their methodology and etc. I feel like there is still some mystery there.

Other than that, a relatively happy ending. Much atrocity is bound to follow, and maybe the world will be massively messed up, but I do hope that at the end of it all, it shall be saved.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Redeagl on April 18, 2018, 08:00:32 pm
A strong, central Dunyain character to lead the series would be boss. Dunyain made this series of books for me, and if Achamian, his child or Mimara is to lead the last set of books, I'll be gravely disappointed. Crabicus to the rescue! Also, on that point, more on the origins of the Dunyain; why they've adopted their methodology and etc. I feel like there is still some mystery there.

Other than that, a relatively happy ending. Much atrocity is bound to follow, and maybe the world will be massively messed up, but I do hope that at the end of it all, it shall be saved.
This, but the exact opposite.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: natanaj on April 18, 2018, 11:18:46 pm
A strong, central Dunyain character to lead the series would be boss. Dunyain made this series of books for me, and if Achamian, his child or Mimara is to lead the last set of books, I'll be gravely disappointed. Crabicus to the rescue! Also, on that point, more on the origins of the Dunyain; why they've adopted their methodology and etc. I feel like there is still some mystery there.

Other than that, a relatively happy ending. Much atrocity is bound to follow, and maybe the world will be massively messed up, but I do hope that at the end of it all, it shall be saved.
This, but the exact opposite.
It would be cool to see achamians son and kellhus's grandson as the protagonists.

I dont want any more dunyain origin though, except maybe a chapter or two about the mutilated origins

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Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: SmilerLoki on April 19, 2018, 04:04:58 am
Much atrocity is bound to follow, and maybe the world will be massively messed up, but I do hope that at the end of it all, it shall be saved.
Definitions of "saved" vary significantly in this series. The Consult is trying to save the world, too, it's just they go about it lots differently than other characters.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Frail on April 27, 2018, 04:44:51 am
Lets get some more God's and Godesses, it feels like we only have been acquainted with Ajokli, Yatwer, and Gilgaol. I want Teshkkaman the Goddess of Dunyain rebirth and clonetime, for Kellhus of course, or something similar.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Wilshire on April 27, 2018, 06:59:09 pm
Much atrocity is bound to follow, and maybe the world will be massively messed up, but I do hope that at the end of it all, it shall be saved.
Definitions of "saved" vary significantly in this series. The Consult is trying to save the world, too, it's just they go about it lots differently than other characters.
I think someone or some group will almost certainly be saved. No guess as to who it will be and how terrible that will be for all the losers lol.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Francis Buck on May 01, 2018, 03:03:32 am
Lets get some more God's and Godesses, it feels like we only have been acquainted with Ajokli, Yatwer, and Gilgaol. I want Teshkkaman the Goddess of Dunyain rebirth and clonetime, for Kellhus of course, or something similar.

I agree with your overall sentiment and would definitely like to see other Gods (as well as all the things surrounding that general topic, such as the "sorcery-but-not-sorcery" that people like Psatma can apparently use if a god likes you enough).

However I actually would like some more about Gilgaol fleshed out. I feel like, aside from his appearance in Akka's dream of the Celmomian Prophecy (which for the record I do think was indeed Gigaol and not some kinda of Ajokli alternate whatever), we don't actually get the up-close-and-personal stuff we do with Ajokli and certainly not Yatwer, who's by far the most developed of the Gods in the series and is basically our only insight into what interactions with other Gods MIGHT be like (Ajokli we do get a lot of especially in retrospect, but since he's literally an oddball compared to the others, we're still left only with the Yatwerian stuff).
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TaoHorror on May 01, 2018, 12:32:50 pm
Since Bakker took a stab at Non-man conscious experience, maybe he will with the gods, give us divine POV.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 11, 2018, 10:52:45 pm
This is actually something I really don't want to happen in TNG rather than the opposite, but I figured this was still the right thread.

I really hope that we don't get any of these two scenarios (and yes, I know these might sound kind of random, but they're things that I've thought about a few times):
-"Akka Jr." rapidly aging to a small child (or to an even older age) due to some supernatural reason. This is a trope that really gets on my nerves and it seems to happen in fiction over and over again every time some character has a baby. Characters in TSA have aged normally so far, please let it stay that way.
-Mimara dying, paving the way for Akka and Esmenet to finally get together in their grief. I actually thought this was where Bakker was heading in TUC when Esmenet was so worried about how long Mimara's labour was lasting. Very glad this was not the case. I know it's probable that Mimara might die in TNG, but I'll make my peace with it (even if it will make me quite sad if it does happen) if we don't get this sort of scenario.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: Francis Buck on May 15, 2018, 06:54:05 pm
This is actually something I really don't want to happen in TNG rather than the opposite, but I figured this was still the right thread.

I really hope that we don't get any of these two scenarios (and yes, I know these might sound kind of random, but they're things that I've thought about a few times):
-"Akka Jr." rapidly aging to a small child (or to an even older age) due to some supernatural reason. This is a trope that really gets on my nerves and it seems to happen in fiction over and over again every time some character has a baby. Characters in TSA have aged normally so far, please let it stay that way.
-Mimara dying, paving the way for Akka and Esmenet to finally get together in their grief. I actually thought this was where Bakker was heading in TUC when Esmenet was so worried about how long Mimara's labour was lasting. Very glad this was not the case. I know it's probable that Mimara might die in TNG, but I'll make my peace with it (even if it will make me quite sad if it does happen) if we don't get this sort of scenario.

I will be very displeased if we don't some get seriously awesome stuff from Mimara before (and if) she dies. I want more Chorae-powered Hell banishing!
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 15, 2018, 10:55:37 pm
I will be very displeased if we don't some get seriously awesome stuff from Mimara before (and if) she dies. I want more Chorae-powered Hell banishing!

Oh, that too, for sure. Even Kellhus, the fake prophet, had his three miracles. We're still missing two from Mimara (at the very least). ;)
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: H on May 16, 2018, 02:04:59 pm
Oh, that too, for sure. Even Kellhus, the fake prophet, had his three miracles. We're still missing two from Mimara (at the very least). ;)

Well, it would stand to reason.  Mimara is the true Prophet/Messiah/Savior, as she is the Judge (and so the Christ).  I still think, even thought it did not happen in TUC, that Mimara will answer the No God's question, somehow...
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 16, 2018, 03:19:58 pm
I still think, even thought it did not happen in TUC, that Mimara will answer the No God's question, somehow...
Interesting. I feel that the No-God's question is the main defining trait of its nature and being, thus not needing any kind of answer. The fact that the No-God asks this question in a way it does makes the No-God what it is, also pointing to some possible explanations of its known effects.

The notion that this question might somehow be answered in the series seems very strange to me.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 16, 2018, 03:42:41 pm
I still think, even thought it did not happen in TUC, that Mimara will answer the No God's question, somehow...
Interesting. I feel that the No-God's question is the main defining trait of its nature and being, thus not needing any kind of answer. The fact that the No-God asks this question in a way it does makes the No-God what it is, also pointing to some possible explanations of its known effects.

The notion that this question might somehow be answered in the series seems very strange to me.

It might also be that Mimara may confront the No-God and not exactly answer his question(s) but address it somehow (don't ask me in what way, though, I'm just starting to speculate here). Maybe related to something she sees/saw with the Judging Eye?
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: H on May 16, 2018, 05:05:11 pm
I still think, even thought it did not happen in TUC, that Mimara will answer the No God's question, somehow...
Interesting. I feel that the No-God's question is the main defining trait of its nature and being, thus not needing any kind of answer. The fact that the No-God asks this question in a way it does makes the No-God what it is, also pointing to some possible explanations of its known effects.

The notion that this question might somehow be answered in the series seems very strange to me.

It might also be that Mimara may confront the No-God and not exactly answer his question(s) but address it somehow (don't ask me in what way, though, I'm just starting to speculate here). Maybe related to something she sees/saw with the Judging Eye?

It's sort of a resolution of a paradox.  But it's also Mimara enforcing the Cubit's frame.  Or, if you like, the Cubit enforcing The Frame through Mimara.  The point being, of course, that the No-God only exists because it's state is "impossible" in the sense, that Bakker calls a p-zombie, of contradiction.  The No-God begs the question of "what do you see?" because it cannot see and therefor cannot know.  In other words, the No-God is a creature of no perspective, where Mimara is a creature of divine perspective.  I can't help but feel this should be important...
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 16, 2018, 05:26:20 pm
It's sort of a resolution of a paradox.  But it's also Mimara enforcing the Cubit's frame.  Or, if you like, the Cubit enforcing The Frame through Mimara.  The point being, of course, that the No-God only exists because it's state is "impossible" in the sense, that Bakker calls a p-zombie, of contradiction.  The No-God begs the question of "what do you see?" because it cannot see and therefor cannot know.  In other words, the No-God is a creature of no perspective, where Mimara is a creature of divine perspective.  I can't help but feel this should be important...
I very much think it is, and you describe it in a fairly concise way. I just don't see why there needs to be a resolution to those things in themselves. They are self-sufficient.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: H on May 16, 2018, 05:49:58 pm
I very much think it is, and you describe it in a fairly concise way. I just don't see why there needs to be a resolution to those things in themselves. They are self-sufficient.

True, there doesn't have to be, but we are here wondering where TNG goes.  We can presume, rightly or wrongly, that the No-God is eventually defeated and so I imagine how that might be.  Of course that might not be the case.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 16, 2018, 06:15:54 pm
True, there doesn't have to be, but we are here wondering where TNG goes.  We can presume, rightly or wrongly, that the No-God is eventually defeated and so I imagine how that might be.  Of course that might not be the case.
No, no, I don't dispute your presumption or anything, I just found it far removed from anything I've ever felt on the matter, and so wanted to talk about it.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TLEILAXU on May 17, 2018, 11:00:37 pm
I very much think it is, and you describe it in a fairly concise way. I just don't see why there needs to be a resolution to those things in themselves. They are self-sufficient.

True, there doesn't have to be, but we are here wondering where TNG goes.  We can presume, rightly or wrongly, that the No-God is eventually defeated and so I imagine how that might be.  Of course that might not be the case.
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on May 18, 2018, 11:03:28 pm
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 19, 2018, 01:57:11 am
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
I agree with MSJ. I think that it's important to remember that RSB is actually not very fond of the impending Semantic Apocalypse and that he thinks that somehow we need to circumvent the disasters coming down the pike. I hold out hope that Eärwa will survive the Logos/Tekne and manage to defeat the No-God 2.0. Love, MSJ; love will conquer all! Take it to the bank. As for friend Tleilaxu, I'll just note that it's not safe to assume anything that Bakker may write, imho.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: H on May 21, 2018, 11:20:41 am
Well, Bakker has said something to the effect of "there are two different ways" the story could go...presumably the split could be either a victory over the No-God, or defeat.  I presume though (plausibly wrongly) the Mimara, as the Christ figure, does in fact actually "save" the world.

Where Kellhus was the "false prophet" of intellect, Mimara is the true prophet of judgement.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TLEILAXU on May 21, 2018, 04:42:44 pm
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
Well, I may be biased, but I believe that Bakker thinks the semantic apocalypse is inevitable, i.e. meaning will die, analogous to the Outside being shut.

Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
I agree with MSJ. I think that it's important to remember that RSB is actually not very fond of the impending Semantic Apocalypse and that he thinks that somehow we need to circumvent the disasters coming down the pike. I hold out hope that Eärwa will survive the Logos/Tekne and manage to defeat the No-God 2.0. Love, MSJ; love will conquer all! Take it to the bank. As for friend Tleilaxu, I'll just note that it's not safe to assume anything that Bakker may write, imho.
Right, but the thing is, the other Metaphysics with Gods has its own horrors and dooms. There was another thread where somebody said something akin to eschaton being a fundamental aspect of the World, which could be interpreted as either the No-God walking (which is problematic since the Gods can't see it), or maybe even as the God itself ending existence.
Well, Bakker has said something to the effect of "there are two different ways" the story could go...presumably the split could be either a victory over the No-God, or defeat.  I presume though (plausibly wrongly) the Mimara, as the Christ figure, does in fact actually "save" the world.

Where Kellhus was the "false prophet" of intellect, Mimara is the true prophet of judgement.
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess. I still think she's going to be important, but she's no longer "backed" by divine grace.
Two different ways could mean two different ways humans cope with existence in a meaningless world. We have baseline humans and then we have the meaningfully-truncated Dûnyain.
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: MSJ on May 21, 2018, 04:51:55 pm
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess.

I read that scene as letting go of the chorae to save her hide.... I didn't see it as her loosing her prophetess status. Akka was her only escape and Akka can't fly with a chorae. She still has The Judging Eye.

 
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TaoHorror on May 21, 2018, 04:59:02 pm
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess.

I read that scene as letting go of the chorae to save her hide.... I didn't see it as her loosing her prophetess status. Akka was her only escape and Akka can't fly with a chorae. She still has The Judging Eye.

During my initial read, I was confused by that scene as it's written ( imho ) as TL explains, but it was working when it could see TNG through the illusion. So either it stopped working when the winds started blowing or it still works - and likely MSJ's explanation is correct and transitioned into hauling ass mode. I still like my idea that it's a "plant" that will provide vulnerability/access to TNG, but alas, doesn't seem credible ( just cool! ).
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: H on May 21, 2018, 08:19:05 pm
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess. I still think she's going to be important, but she's no longer "backed" by divine grace.
Two different ways could mean two different ways humans cope with existence in a meaningless world. We have baseline humans and then we have the meaningfully-truncated Dûnyain.

Well, one thing is that Mimara is not a 1:1 map of Christ, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Mimara's ability, that is The Judging Eye itself, is not divine, per se, but is actually proto-divine, if I understand it correctly.  That is, if we can believe what Koringhus tells us (very debatable) the source of the Eye (and so of Judgement) is the Cubit, to which god, the gods, or even The God of Gods is still subject.

But I can't pretend that I know, factually, that Mimara's Eye will work with the advent of the No-God.  My hunch is that the Cubit, being the firmament of everything, does still work.  I have no way to prove or disprove that though.  In the absence of a negative, which I don't think it plausible in the "line" that Koringhus presents us, the continuum is the Cubit at Zero, the Hundred at 1/100, and I presume the Solitary God, or the God of Gods, would be One.  As such, there is no subtraction that puts us at less than Zero.  In fact, Zero might well be a firmament of the No-God itself, but I can't actually articulate in words my thoughts on that right now.

If any of that word salad makes sense, I'm not sure...
Title: Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
Post by: TLEILAXU on May 22, 2018, 05:30:21 pm
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess. I still think she's going to be important, but she's no longer "backed" by divine grace.
Two different ways could mean two different ways humans cope with existence in a meaningless world. We have baseline humans and then we have the meaningfully-truncated Dûnyain.

Well, one thing is that Mimara is not a 1:1 map of Christ, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Mimara's ability, that is The Judging Eye itself, is not divine, per se, but is actually proto-divine, if I understand it correctly.  That is, if we can believe what Koringhus tells us (very debatable) the source of the Eye (and so of Judgement) is the Cubit, to which god, the gods, or even The God of Gods is still subject.
The way I see it, the world is more like a bicameral mind where the God/the Gods are the "speaking" part. God is not apart from the Cubit, but IS the Cubit (imagine objective morals built into the very fabric of the cosmos), at least one aspect of it, orthogonal to the real (always loved the sound of this phrase).

If any of that word salad makes sense, I'm not sure...
I believe the answer is a resounding no  ;)

edit: I also had some responses to MSJ and TaoHorror but I guess I overwrote them by mistake... Just to be clear that I'm not completely ignoring you guys!