The Prince of Nothing (Film)

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locke

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« Reply #105 on: September 03, 2013, 07:34:22 am »
Actually Bakker's style of dominance through internal dialog makes it easier to adapt than Martin's, you can retain more of Bakker's spoken dialog without having to go through the epic battles of condensing tons of ridiculously juicy wordplay that Martin excels at. You then articulate backstory through whatever creative way you can come up with (sexposition would be appropriate in this verse).

You definitely would not take a Malick route.  Nor would you want to go the didactic manner of people speaking their thoughts, or a David Lynch/Dune esque 'interior dialog'.  Rather, you rely on your actors to get across as much as they can, and you give them an assist with half a line or half a scene that straddles the line between implicitly and explicitly saying something.  Audiences are quite good at following interpersonal dynamics, so scenes where characters are talking around something can be done quite adeptly--while completely supporting an internal dialog--given an adept utitlization of the basic dialect of television storytelling (meaning, anyone can cut a scene with a few meaningful looks involved).

And it helps that Kellhus, the person with the most meaningful inner dialogue because he's visually a cypher to the audience or is being directed and written to seduce the audience as well, has everything about him established through scenes with Leweth and Cnaiur where an otherwise inner dialogue can be relatively seamlessly brought to the fore.  Since the other characters all deliberately wear their hearts on their sleeves, their inner dialogue will be written on their faces, and in the edit.  A meaningful look of jealousy from Akka when Kellhus laughs at something Esme says will say as much in 50 frames as Bakker says in 5 paragraphs of Akka's internal self-recriminations.

***
The real challenge is not in the internal monologue, the real challenge is plot, story and character disparation.  The story is constructed in a manner that is extremely challenging for a television season.  Looking at the story as a whole, you have two season ending events, Umiaki and Shimeh.  You can't write a season of television that begins with a bunch of unrelated characters heading towards each other, and then ends when the characters run into each other in the last episode and have a pow-wow with the emperor.  Oh my, that is dramatic!

The advantage, the brilliance, Game of Thrones has is that every main character of the first season is pretty much in one place for the first episode, and then a gradual dispersal pattern spreads from there as the sub-plots and characters fan out in all directions.  The one exception is Dany, so you really only have two things for the audience to remember in the first episode. 

A first episode of Prince of Nothing is a fucking plotting disaster.  You start with a two-four scene prologue with the founding of the Dunyain then flashforward 2000 years.  Okay, well make it a pre-credits scene and you can probably excuse it.  Kellhus wandering the wilderness is a montage sequence probably not longer than 45 seconds, ending with him collapsing in the snow.  Then you’re halfway across the world to Carythusal, and you’re wasting time establishing a location that will never be relevant to a single character in the rest of the entire run of the series.  That’s expensive and absurd. You're also wasting time establishing Akka as a spy when he is never really a spy in any sense of the word (at least not in a way that would work on TV) at any point or any time in the entire run of the series after this point.  Then you’re off to Momemn, to establish the emperor in a scene that establishes Conphas on the field preparing for the battle against the Scylvendie.  We move across the battle lines to Cnaiur and establish him and that there is a power struggle for the leadership of the horde is going on.  Then we move back to Kellhus and Leweth before zipping back to Achamian, probably now in Atyersus, so we’re brutally wasting time establishing him in a second location that will only be relevant one other time in the entire series.  Since every character (other than Kellhus) has been mentioning that a new Shriah has been elected we move to another new location, Sumna, where Esmenet is established, hearing about the new Shriah from one of her clients.  We switch back to a battle scene where Conphas outlines why the Scylvendie will fall to him (because they do the same thing) which segues to a scene of Cnaiur not being chosen (because he says they should not do the same thing) which segues to Kellhus telling Leweth that men always do the same thing, then the Sranc attack, Leweth exeunts, and Kellhus faces down Mekeritrig before fleeing, roll credits, end episode one.

The point of all that is that it's an order of magnitude (or two) more complex than the introduction Martin gives us.  The struggles of plot Game of Thrones will face in it's fourth and fifth season are struggles they can afford to have because the show is at the height of it's success and has earned a bit of a downslope.  You're asking Prince of Nothing to take on all those struggles from the very beginning.  It's a hard sell without some significant changes.  but I think you could minimize the changes.  I'd seriously consider throwing out Xerius, though that would necessitate a lot of research into seeing how Conphas' motivations and considerations and calculations change if he is already emperor rather than heir apparent.  And I'd consider throwing out Carythusal and Atyersus.  I'd make Sumna into something more like Sauglish, the seat of power in the three seas, where The Mandate, the Scarlet Spires and the Inrithi faith all coexist in an uneasy truce (and have for millenia). You could still have Atyersus on a barrier island that leads to Sumna's safe harbor.  This would also allow Sumna to become something of a foil for Shimeh, because the Inrithi have never allied with a school, while the ascendent Fanim faith has allied with a school (the Cishaurim).  I'd also make Esmenet a lot more important early on.  Yes she was a whore, but that just meant that she was ideally situated to encounter all three of the power players in Sumna, and she figured out how to leverage knowledge into security and safety of a stable livelyhood. I'd make Esmenet the spy, not Achamian, she trades whispers from one faction to another and that's how she really makes her living.  and that's how she knows achamian, Geshrunni, Inrau and Sarcellus, they're all patrons of Esmenet's house of pleasure.  I'd make Achamian, the noted (and disgraced) Mandate Scholar, the Mandate's ambassador to the Shriah, which is a ceremonial and useless insult position because there is no official contact between the Mandate and the Shriah, anymore than there is between The Mandate and the Scarlet Spires.  There are unofficial contacts, naturally, but Achamian would never be privy to such, especially not after the House Nersei disaster.  Nope, a roll of the whore's dice causes Achamian to get mixed up in everything, all he wanted was a night at the whore house, unfortunately, Geshrunni and his revelations fall into Achamian's lap.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 07:03:08 pm by locke »

Wilshire

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« Reply #106 on: September 03, 2013, 03:17:03 pm »
Looks like you've put a lto more thought into this than most.

Now that you spell it out, I can see the true reason why it would be so difficult. Even the changes your suggested, which would make it more feasible, are enough to irritate the already small number of viewers. It just doesn't seem realistic, unless it become very popular and an almost guaranteed success there is just too much risk.

edit
A first episode of Prince of Nothing is a fucking plotting disaster.
I think this actually lies in the heart of my struggle with the series the first time I read it. There is a lot going on very quickly and there are a lot of plots to follow. The characters arn't really connected for a long time, and the pace seemed extraordinarily slow. After readint it a few times I tend to forget a lot of those issues because everything seems to flow much better when you know where it is all going.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 04:51:15 pm by Wilshire »
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Baztek

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« Reply #107 on: September 03, 2013, 04:40:19 pm »
Locke, that was great. More please

locke

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« Reply #108 on: September 03, 2013, 07:39:18 pm »
well it's kinda hard to go forward because I don't know if I prefer a faithful adaptation or a compressed adaptation. Faithful wise, it's easy enough to chop up the chapters and rearrange them in an interleaving manner.  You'd probably invent a scene of Kellhus at Atraithau in episode 2, have the battle where Conphas wins and have him receive adulation equal to the adulation the Shriah receives when he calls the holy war and adulation equal to the adulation Kellhus is getting in Atraithau.  Introduce the Inrau, Esmenet, and Akka convolutions as well.

But it's very tempting to only have three locations in the first episode.  The battlefield (emperor and cnaiur), the north (Kellhus, Leweth, Mekeritrig) and Suman (Achamian, Esmenet, Maithanet, Proyas).  Trying to juggle all the other locations would be much harder, and getting Akka and Esme together sooner is better for the livelyhood of the series (and needs to be established in the first episode), Giving Akka two professions, spy and sorcerer, is confusing and frustrating, especially since Akka is a terrible spy and the role is pretty much 100% abandoned post Inrau.  Making Esmenet the author of her own success in Sumna, and Akka a big part of the reason why her position fell apart both foreshadows her role with Kellhus as his master of spies, makes her more dynamic (she's not passive), and gives a strong motivation for why she does not rejoin Akka later in the season (because she's still angry at him).  I'd also make Akka ignorant that he is Esmenet's best/first client as a spy, that his loose tongue was the source of the first lies and whispers she sold to other factions in Sumna, and in the process of trying to ply him for more information, she also fell in love with him as they spent time together while they were both on the rise/make within their respective fields.  When Akka went away to tutor house Nersei Esmenet was cut adrift and had to establish herself, becoming another spy-madame in the city. 

in my wilder dreams, I'd have Esment secretly teach herself how to read by creating a game with Akka.  Every so often she'd ask what a symbol/syllable was and how it was made (written).  Eventually she'd assemble the meaning of the whole alphabet and teach herself how to read in secret, having 'stolen' the knowledge from Akka.  This works because the alphabet is a syllabary, iirc, and once you know the characters, all words are spelled/pronounced the same way with almost no variants.  In this silly projection, I'd have Esmenet acquire her secrets by reading the papers her clients carelessly left about (because women or low caste people can't read and are not a threat). Or perhaps she becomes, on accident, something of a rare book dealer?  imagine if one day a sorcerer or priest came to her, he had a book/scroll with him, and was worried about it, he left it in her keeping, and she copied it out.  When he came to retrieve it some time later, she returned it and he never knew she'd made her own copy.  Like the movie the apartment, word subtly spread that this was a good place to hide ilicit books from the authorities.  And in becoming part of this underground book marketplace Esmenet acquires a stunning amount of knowledge. ;)

Madness

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« Reply #109 on: September 04, 2013, 01:01:15 pm »
I definitely appreciate what you are attempting, lockesnow, I just don't know if I could back the arc you've taken with Esmenet. If only works up until the point there's an inversion of Esmenet's character (which I still feel is coming).

Though, I feel to voice this opinion I am obliged to offer some alternative story-boarding. You're doing the good work, you are...
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Baztek

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« Reply #110 on: September 04, 2013, 07:37:17 pm »
Locke, I really like your ideas and if there's ever a chance of TSA going on air I'd want you to be at the helm lol.

I like the switcheroo in Akka and Esmi's roles because it paints Esmi as a very competent person who is wasting away at the wrong station in life (the crux of her character), and Akka as somewhat oblivious and ineffectual when it comes to the mundane world. Though it's important Akka be not depicted as some bumbling fat sorcerer. He is a powerful beyond reckoning, just kind of scared and sensitive.



« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 09:28:33 pm by Baztek »

locke

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« Reply #111 on: September 05, 2013, 12:45:51 am »
I agree. :)

tekne

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« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2013, 12:33:11 am »
something that may go with Unholy Consult (yet to be published) in feeling
time will show if I was right
http://www.pinterest.com/igortr/pins/
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« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2013, 09:52:23 pm »
Hi tekne, welcome to The Second Apocalypse.

Could I ask you to choose a specific thread in which to post this? I would personally recommend the TSA-related art but your choice. I simply feel the triple post unnecessary.

Cheers.
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tekne

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« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2013, 10:45:05 pm »
allright I ve found my way,  let me keep it here as well and I am deleting the other two...
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:54:09 pm by tekne »
The dark currents I find - An accurate copy, A blueprint of the pleasure In me

...best things in life come without tension, driven by a higher flow ,that one and only is the reason and truth behind their sole existance

jamesA01

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« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2013, 04:08:32 pm »
Did anyone say Gillian Anderson as Esmenet? Javier Bardem as Cnaiur?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 04:10:05 pm by jamesA01 »

Francis Buck

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« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2013, 05:35:30 pm »
Great thoughts locke, I too would like to see a TSA show produced by you. :)

What do you guys think the best title for it would be? I tend to lean towards The Prince of Nothing. The Darkness That Comes Before is a little long, although just The Second Apocalypse could work I suppose.

I could actually see Javier Bardem as Cnaiur, even though he doesn't quite match my mental image of Cnaiur (which, as I've mentioned before, is pretty much a photorealistic Nathan Explosion from Metalocalypse, lol). I could see Bardem fitting several roles though, possibly even Maithanet. or maybe Seswatha (I quite like him as Seswatha, come to think of it...). He could probably play a good Nonman too, once the make-up was applied. He has an interesting and distinctive facial structure, which I think would be required for pretty much all the Nonmen.

Wilshire

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« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2013, 04:16:02 pm »
I'd say The Prince of Nothing would make a good title for the first movie, but only because TDTCB is too long. I just love that title.
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Nil'giccas

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« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2013, 07:19:53 am »
I haven't read through all of Locke's post just yet, but I have to disagree and offer some quick counter points as I have daydreamed and plotted about a visual representation of PoN.

The fragmentation Locke speaks of is more so because he is leaving out significant scenes, and adding emphasis to small scenes that shouldn't be given as much credit.  For instance, Kellhus' opening scene in the wilderness.  Although not immensely necessary and could be done via montage, you skip over the entire Leweth scene.  I'm sorry, but Kellhus and Leweth cannot be done in 45 seconds nor should it.  The scene is incredibly fundamental to the character and the story as a whole. And lets not forget you have a perfect cliffhanger ending at the end of TDTCB.  The end of the book is NOT the meet and greet with the Emperor, the end of the book is Achamian finding out the Consult are alive and infiltrated House Ikurei!! On top of that he ignores Esmi at the end too.  I think that makes for a great season ending episode...Walks past Esmi, not acknowledging her, pan way out and show the Holy War marching to war.

As for an example of adding unnecessary emphasis to scenes that don't require them.  Achamian in Carythusal.  This is a scene that could be brushed aside in a very brief amount of time because it's not important.  What is important about the scene is it sets up Achamian to be summoned back home so we can get a glimpse inside the school and of how Achamian is already doubting his own conviction.  It also gives an opportunity to learn about the Chorae, which is absolutely necessary, and to see our hidden, overarching villain later on albeit only very very briefly.

I will say that it would be difficult hopping around from character to character when they are so spaced at the beginning, but that is the point.  TDTCB is all about the beginnings of something monumental.  It is the coming together of these characters and somehow representing that visually would be necessary, but it's entirely possible. 

PoN is setup quite well for episodic viewing and seasons.  I think each book has a significant role or theme -
TDTCB = the coming together - a beginning of great things - an enemy revealed
TWP = The march - and the beginning of the transformation of Kellhus to Aspect-Emperor/God
TTT = the culmination of things - the end of the march - ascension of Kellhus to Godhood and Akka renouncing him

Just my two cents so far, hopefully it doesn't sound too critical.

Phallus Pendulus

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« Reply #119 on: July 24, 2014, 05:17:39 pm »
Lol, I don't understand this fixation with gritty realism. It's impossible to adapt TSA as a 'realistic' low-fantasy movie or 'gritty'soap opera like Game of Thrones, the supernatural high-fantasy stuff is absolutely vital to the plot - sorcerers, rapist aliens, nonmen, skin-spies, judging eyes, gods interfering in reality, dragons, demons, honeyed anuses, deaths swirling around, etc etc.

Why not highlight the fantastical parts?

« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 05:19:57 pm by Phallus Pendulus »