[Cüréthañ]

From what we know of Earwan metaphysics, the hundred gods are attuned to the souls of men. 
It seems they are not the creators of men, in myth nor any hazy intimation of text.
It can be argued that they are created from some kind of collective emotional subconscious, but it is more likely that they predate human civilization, at least from the hints of various nonmen and Baker's epigrams.
It is my contention that humans and gods have some kind of feedback loop of reflected meaning between the inside and outside.

So, what was the relationship between nonmen and the outside?  We know that nonmen face damnation, which entails that outside agencies have some similar relationship via meaning and experience.  Their mastery of sorcery deepens the association. Our experience with nonman religion is very shallow.  Akka's mention of mystery cults suggest their was more than one form of belief/worship amongst them.  Religious prohibitions are mentioned in TTT glossary, so there was some centralization, but questions remain.

Perhaps the hundred abandoned the moribund cunoroi and adopted their halaroi pets.
Possibly the nonmen also viewed them as merely powerful ciphrang, but then why would they not have warned men during the tutelage.
If we attend Titirga's words in the False Dawn, it would seem that men sought instead to adopt the theology of nonmen.
Or maybe older agencies simply withered and died as their supply of nonmen souls dwindled.

Personally, I suspect that like the nonmen, the custodians of their souls' experiences linger still. 
I think Ajokli has got something to do with it, that the twin-souled Anasurimbor might just represent the link between the outside of men and the outside of non-men.

[Madness]

I'll collect them after and link them here but there are at least three or four topics that overlap with these ideas already, Curethan. Not that I care about the newly created topic - just notation.

It can be argued that they are created from some kind of collective emotional subconscious, but it is more likely that they predate human civilization, at least from the hints of various nonmen and Baker's epigrams.

I like this, except I would amend it as "created from some kind of collective emotional subconscious of ensoulled beings."

If we attend Titirga's words in the False Dawn, it would seem that men sought instead to adopt the theology of nonmen.

Actually, my take away is that sorcerers, not the Many of humankind, embrace the Nonman theology. And I wonder why, if the Nonmen are not actually unilaterally damned by the Hundred...

[Wilshire]

They aren't? I was under the impression that they worshiped between the gods because they were damned. Because in that case, it makes perfect sense that the human schoolmen adopted their theology, otherwise its questionable.

[Madness]

Well, we don't know why Nin'sariccas agrees with Kellhus that the Nonmen are Damned for worshiping spaces between the Gods, when Bakker has revealed out of text that the Inchoroi added the Nonmen are Damned imperative to the Tusk.

[Wilshire]

Oh yeah, I forgot that bit. But the Tusk wouldn't have changed any Nonman philosophy, so they would have had to have some reason for believing they are damned.

[Cüréthañ]

Aware of the overlap Madness.  However, a few distinct thoughts in mind here.

I would like to question whether there was one unified theological system in nonman culture.  This seems to be a common assumption and yet is unlikely.  There are competing and splintered cults and religions among men, why not nonmen?
As I noted above, there was a some central authority that made pronouncements about the piety of types of sorcery (i.e. the body that banned aporetic sorcery).  I think there is potential for discussion and hope others might add their own observations and contentions.

Much referenced exposition within the books depends on sorcerers and their interpretation of quyan teachings.  Cleric talks a lot about his peoples' beliefs, but is his really referring to his own beliefs, the dominant religion of his mansion or some other subset?

As you note, the Tutelage did seem to focus on quya/schoolmen relations, at least in as much as it is referenced in the text.  Nevertheless, it demonstrates some level of compatibility within the metaphysics of human and nonman.
Nonman religion simply had to be concerned with more than just sorcery, and Titirga was a hero of the Norisai, not a mere sorcerer.

Were the mystery cults Akka mentions unified beneath a common system ala the hundred temples or were they regular nonmen who had dedicated themselves to specific agencies?

As for worshiping the spaces between the gods, I think this is also incorrect.  I agree with Wilshire here.  This notion is more like aiming between the gods' outside realities - more inline with the human theological aim of creating sub-realities owned by ancestors rather than gods.  It is described as a specific strategy for avoiding the attention of outside agencies.  Perhaps the use of sorcery makes a soul inimical to whatever relationship outside agencies have with 'normal souls'.  Further, the fact that nonmen became moribund seems likely to be the reason that they are now collectively damned, if one pays attention to the way that CC is viewed in retrospect, rather than the methods or objects of their former systems of worship.

NG talks about worshiping 'becoming' and other transcendant notions.  Some of that stuff suggests post-womb plague adjustments to theology amid the realisation of their degrading minds/souls. Not new notions, but likely adjustments to old aspirations.

Btw, you incorrectly reference the Inchoroi's addition to the Tusk.  The added exhortation is to hunt down nonmen because they are FALSE.  It is not directly related to their use of sorcery or specifically about their religion, indeed it references their penchant for bumming things iirc. This is entirely consistent with the objectives of the consult

[Madness]

I would like to question whether there was one unified theological system in nonman culture.  This seems to be a common assumption and yet is unlikely.  There are competing and splintered cults and religions among men, why not nonmen?
As I noted above, there was a some central authority that made pronouncements about the piety of types of sorcery (i.e. the body that banned aporetic sorcery).  I think there is potential for discussion and hope others might add their own observations and contentions.

Auriga tried to flesh this out in the Nonmen and Mystery Schools to little avail.

As you note, the Tutelage did seem to focus on quya/schoolmen relations, at least in as much as it is referenced in the text.  Nevertheless, it demonstrates some level of compatibility within the metaphysics of human and nonman.
Nonman religion simply had to be concerned with more than just sorcery, and Titirga was a hero of the Norisai, not a mere sorcerer.

Except that there was still a division (the Tusk, after all, condemned sorcerers too). And the Tutelage is also begun by a heretic Nonman, with his heretical beliefs.

Were the mystery cults Akka mentions unified beneath a common system ala the hundred temples or were they regular nonmen who had dedicated themselves to specific agencies?

...

NG talks about worshiping 'becoming' and other transcendant notions.  Some of that stuff suggests post-womb plague adjustments to theology amid the realisation of their degrading minds/souls. Not new notions, but likely adjustments to old aspirations.

It's a good question for you which you've provided quality fodder.

I also agree with the Erratic Leanings (Post-Womb Plague adjustments).

However, I do think you've missed important pieces. Why is the Quya and Ishroi caste system organized like it is? What were the effects of the Slave Pit Topoi on Nonmen cultures and society as a whole? For that matter, did culture even differ between Mansions?

Btw, you incorrectly reference the Inchoroi's addition to the Tusk.  The added exhortation is to hunt down nonmen because they are FALSE.  It is not directly related to their use of sorcery or specifically about their religion, indeed it references their penchant for bumming things iirc. This is entirely consistent with the objectives of the consult

Hearken, for this the God has said,
“These False Men offend Me;
blot out all mark of their Passing."

Absolutely consistent with Consult objectives (as would sorcery being an addition).

Apologies for the original misconception. I still just think it proves translated to the same semantic difference. Humans fight a war of extermination against the Nonmen. They allow that idea of Nonmen as False to permeate their culture over thousands of years. Wilshire's Excerpt Adventure seems to imply that consensual human culture contemporaneously think the Nonmen unilaterally Damned?

Obviously, we know that they can't all be Damned, especially because it is an Inchoroi addition that says they are. And even if Nonmen are Damned are they all Damned or only the Quya (or some other division)? What's the fulcrum (reason) of their Damnation if a certain portion of them believe in escaping it?

And if they aren't Damned at all?

What if Ishroi aren't Damned?

[Francis Buck]

Awesome thread. Nonmen, and all things relating to them, are among my favorite topics regarding the series. My thoughts in regards to their Damnation:

I do not think there are really any special rules applied to Nonmen. Some are damned. Some aren't damned. All the sorcerers probably are damned by default. I think they're like any other ensoulled being in the universe (such as the Inchoroi, for example); the rules of damnation and salvation apply to everyone equally, no matter what. Except maybe humans, but even then only in certain cases.

As to their actual religion, I think the Nonmen simply don't want to worship the gods (perhaps because they know, or suspect, that the Hundred are indeed just bigger, meaner ciphrang), and instead they sought another route, that being the worship of the spaces between gods. They'd rather seek oblivion then play into the petty games of the gods for some small chance of approval.

[Cüréthañ]

I think all nonmen are damned.  How could immortality possibly be condoned in a world like Earwa?  No rotting souls allowed in heaven please!

[Madness]

I think

I do not think there are really any special rules applied to Nonmen. Some are damned. Some aren't damned. All the sorcerers probably are damned by default. I think they're like any other ensoulled being in the universe (such as the Inchoroi, for example); the rules of damnation and salvation apply to everyone equally, no matter what. Except maybe humans, but even then only in certain cases.

As to their actual religion, I think the Nonmen simply don't want to worship the gods (perhaps because they know, or suspect, that the Hundred are indeed just bigger, meaner ciphrang), and instead they sought another route, that being the worship of the spaces between gods. They'd rather seek oblivion then play into the petty games of the gods for some small chance of approval.

I think all nonmen are damned.  How could immortality possibly be condoned in a world like Earwa?  No rotting souls allowed in heaven please!

I'm going to hazard that Mimara will see an Ishroi (non-Quya) in Ishterebinth with the Judging Eye and he will be righteous to behold .

[mrganondorf]

Whatever the nonman religions were originally, I got to think they've been largely abandoned since the Ark brought so much woe.

Any sense that men/nonmen are analogous to the fate of Tolkien's men/elves with the first as "strangers" to the world and the later bound to it forever?  Gin'yursis can only inhabit the bit of hell that is close to Cil-Aujus, but worshipers of Yatwer or whoever could ascend to some higher sphere?

EDIT: Any way the worship of the spaces between the gods could be the same thing as the oblivion that is Mog?  The truth of the Inverse Fire that is hidden from the non-Consult nonmen is that such worship does not allow you to avoid damnation.  You have to go further and bring oblivion into the world.  Take away the spaces between the gods.  When the god is one, the world is sealed from it.  Spekalatin