[What Came Before]

She suppresses everything. Thoughts, emotions, whatever. Anything that might get her into trouble or cause her pain she pretty much just pushes it into the Darkness.

[What Came Before]

Well... thankfully, events have played out that dealing with these exact issues, herself on her own, is what is going to get her through TUC surviving.

[What Came Before]

surviving.

nah she dead.

[What Came Before]

Lol @ Wilshire.

I really hope some redemption is in the cards for Esmenet - she hurt Achamian hard. I'm curious as to how long the Siege of Momemn is going to last. I have a feeling that TUC will spend the majority of the time on the Sieges of Momemn and Dagliash but in either case, Bakker could pull wildcards and finish them in paragraphs.

I've gave thought to this elsewhere but I think either Esmenet or Fanayal will have power of life or death over the other but will stay their deaths when the No-God is resurrected.

[What Came Before]

Lol @ Wilshire.

I really hope some redemption is in the cards for Esmenet - she hurt Achamian hard.

From her perspective, Achamian died.

Why should we hold her responsible for his hurt feelings because he was lucky enough to be resurrected?  Is there an expectation that women should not move on?

[What Came Before]

Why should we hold her responsible for his hurt feelings because he was lucky enough to be resurrected?  Is there an expectation that women should not move on?

Bakker is known as the price of misogyny in some circles. 

To be fair she moved on pretty quick. To be fair again, it was Kellhus.

[What Came Before]

WHAT DO YOU SEE?

[What Came Before]

Why should we hold her responsible for his hurt feelings because he was lucky enough to be resurrected? Is there an expectation that women should not move on?

By redemption, I had meant... an opportunity to be confront her life, internally resolved, I guess - should have just written that.

I'm majorly empathetic to the tribulations of Bakker's characters. Esmenet is a creature of her circumstance as we are. As Wilshire writes, to be fair, it was Kellhus.

I've been in Achamian's shoes before - abroad, not dead obviously - and it is horrible (from some immature perspectives, like my own) to find that you are "sharing" unrequited love. Kellhus aside, Esmenet's social and emotion conflicts seem the result of the suppression of cognitive dissonance. And in not reflecting on those dissonant aspects of herself she basically destroys someone she claims to love with depth.

I'll have to think on those questions, lockesnow.

[What Came Before]

I'm not so sure about that, in the reread I'm struck by how much Esmenet is aware of her inner monologue and the contradictions within it and she is distressed by that; however she's explicitly not ruled by her distress, she isn't overcome or paralyzed by internal contradictions, she seems okay with herself.  DA on the other hand often is overcome and paralyzed by internal contradictions and his inner monologue (as is Proyas), Cnaiur avoids this paralysis by stoking the fires of his own insanity because we often see him consciously choose insanity.  It seems that Esmenet is the outlier here, but a superior outlier, she is often the most self aware.

Perhaps it is the masculine guilt of DA that seduces the reader and this sympathy/empathy puts onus upon Esmenet?

[What Came Before]

I think given the 'dead daughter' element, I'd argue that.

Kellhus skewed her having a chance at dealing with a 'dead' Akka.

Besides, call me a romantic, but they still seemed to have something going - Kellhus ruled the waves, but their oceans go deep, with many currents. The way Akka stammers not when he reputes the emperor, but when he reputes her...the way she made love to him amongst the ruins, on pains of obvious discovery and apparent execution*.

Though I'm not such a romantic to think love will find a way, when Kellhus is the knife between.


* I guess the time lines are out for any of Esme's current children to actually be Akka's? Or can someone give me hope?

[What Came Before]

You're all over the hard hitting questions, lockesnow. I've rarely thought on these particular themes.

I'm not sure if you're leaning so hard to cover our biases and this is an opening you want to explore or because the text backs you up and suggests it.

I think this is why the question of Esmenet's agency is so important. Esmenet suggests it herself in her initial passages of TDTCB. The perspectives of Men are something she can collect and intently explore, judging others by their actions and herself by intentions. She admits that it's like a play world to her, something she can only have by proxy, through those with agency, which are almost unilaterally Men in Earwa, thus far in the narrative.

As of TUC, it seems she is no longer bound or motivated by Kellhus, perhaps her past, and only her children. What will Esmenet do as the first onscreen female with true personal agency? I try and limit my judgements but, ultimately, they seem to depend on the balance of one's awareness and agency...

Esmenet might actually be more self-aware than the men within the PON - it seems to me that what defines her should be her exercise of that self-awareness?

Just thoughts... you're a challenging - as in inspiring - person, lockesnow.

[What Came Before]

I lost all interest in Esmi when she became the puppet of her son.
I just found her stupid I’m afraid.
I also found reading from her perspective very boring and frustrating.

But hey, I think we might be wandering from the topic here

[What Came Before]

Cheers, Borric. We were indeed drifting... I'll leave it up to those involved whether I should attempt to parse the Esmenet related posts from The Synthese/V. Bird thread.

Most recently, Borric highlighted the fact that Esmenet's agency has been hijacked by Kelmomas. Maithanet's warned her of her Son as of WLW but will ambiguity give her reason to trust Kelmomas less or more...

We've also been discussing latent sexism in within the text (or possibly just mine own ) as I've suggested that Esmenet can be held responsible for Achamian's damaged psyche?

EDIT: NM... Success . There was a pretty clear division in content.