The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 08:53:07 pm

Title: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 08:53:07 pm
In response to my question:
"In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese.  But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated).  Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four?  If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function?  How did they manage it with so little sane manpower?  "

Bakker replied

Quote
Your second question leads me to believe that pretty much everyone has missed a certain boat, in which case, I can only say, RAFO!


In response to Likaro's question:

"3. It seems kind of foolish that the Consult would bring Dunyain back as prisoners. Was it simple arrogance that made them feel safe in doing so, or are you actually kind of saying that the Consult brain trust isn't that great and has degraded?"

Bakker replied
Quote
3) Hmmm. I'm beginning to suspect that something rather significant has gone unrecognized. Either way, humility is not among the many virtues enjoyed by the Consult.



So... what are we missing? Clearly there's something about the Consult (and, specifically, the Minds behind it) that's everyone has missed.  My own thoughts are that the Erratics aren't Erratic inside the Ark, similar to Mekeritig given the intensity of trauma they experienced inside it.   Or the rest of the Mangaecca.... are just off-screen and alive somewhere? 
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Woden on July 31, 2017, 08:54:40 pm
I was about to post the same.

Frankly I have no idea of what could be.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 31, 2017, 09:00:30 pm
To the second question, a simple explanation would be that not all the scars the Mutilated bear were given to them in the Thousand Thousand Halls.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Tyrin on July 31, 2017, 09:39:02 pm
Hahaha I came here to make this exact thread!

I've been trying to wrack my brain for possible answers but I remain perplexed. I'm going to reread relevant parts later to see if anything jumps out at me.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: jurble on July 31, 2017, 10:48:49 pm
I think I found what Bakker was talking about:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2300.msg36505#msg36505
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Tyrin on August 01, 2017, 02:32:03 am
I think I found what Bakker was talking about:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2300.msg36505#msg36505

I like this crackpot quite a lot, and would be happy if it was true.

In the event that it's not true, I've been trying to go over everything we know about the Consult's core members (since our apparent lack of understanding of their intellect/power seems to be the thing sparking Bakker's responses), though I haven't really come up with anything, and certainly nothing approaching "missing a certain boat" or not recognizing "something very significant".  If it's not the Shae thing, then I don't know what it could be.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 01, 2017, 03:18:00 am
Uh, the Consult thought they were all that and they weren't. Like, they make quite a few mistakes thanks to hubris. I think that is all that is being said here.

They thought they could use the Dunyain that they captured (or who surrendered) but they got dominated instead. Not a huge issue for them though, they made the No-god to enslave themselves, after all. Only Shae was egomaniac enough to resist.

Seems like the rest of the Mangeacca and the Aporetics perished long ago - or maybe they are hanging with Nin'janjin and Emilidas. Who knows?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 01, 2017, 03:25:18 am
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 01, 2017, 03:39:11 am
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?

I doubt the Consult had sufficient mastery of the Tekne at the time, or Shae himself would have gone for that solution.

I do feel like the Wracu (sans Wutteat) are possibly synthetic bodies rehousing souls from a time before the Inchoroi had exhausted that tech.

Perhaps the Mutilated can get some Ghost-in-the-Shell machines working in time for the third series. ;)
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 01, 2017, 04:06:18 am
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?

I doubt the Consult had sufficient mastery of the Tekne at the time, or Shae himself would have gone for that solution.

I do feel like the Wracu (sans Wutteat) are possibly synthetic bodies rehousing souls from a time before the Inchoroi had exhausted that tech.

Perhaps the Mutilated can get some Ghost-in-the-Shell machines working in time for the third series. ;)
Yeah that's true.
I do believe the Dûnyain will start making new Tekne artifacts. Idle hands are the Devil's workshop...
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: locke on August 01, 2017, 05:04:49 am
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?

I doubt the Consult had sufficient mastery of the Tekne at the time, or Shae himself would have gone for that solution.

I do feel like the Wracu (sans Wutteat) are possibly synthetic bodies rehousing souls from a time before the Inchoroi had exhausted that tech.

Perhaps the Mutilated can get some Ghost-in-the-Shell machines working in time for the third series. ;)
Yeah that's true.
I do believe the Dûnyain will start making new Tekne artifacts. Idle hands are the Devil's workshop...
Idle hands? With all the masturbating to do?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Triskele on August 01, 2017, 05:13:50 am
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 10:56:43 am
Unless, of course, Shae realized that the only way to beat a Dûnyain was with more Dûnyain.

He probably thought that he could completely master them, with the help of the Inverse Fire.  He probably did, but he either failed in the end, or succeeded in a more modest degree.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Wilshire on August 01, 2017, 11:17:11 am
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 
I'm firmly right here.
Its yet another example of how hubris leads to downfall. After all, whats to fear when you have them shackled, and when you've got magic? Nothing. Nothing that thousands of years of experience hasn't taught - that everything is within your control. Just as Triskele says "you assume nothing has changed" - and why would they? Nothing had changed in thousands of years.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 11:21:01 am
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.

2. Mangaecca was a whole School, not just Shauriatas by himself. The Mutilated say that he was the only one who resisted them and was undone. It's unlikely the implied others are exclusively Aurax, Aurang, and Mekeretrig, since at that point Kellhus met every single one of those three (not to mention they obviously weren't undone and replaced by holograms).
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Hiro on August 01, 2017, 11:21:46 am
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 
I'm firmly right here.
Its yet another example of how hubris leads to downfall. After all, whats to fear when you have them shackled, and when you've got magic? Nothing. Nothing that thousands of years of experience hasn't taught - that everything is within your control. Just as Triskele says "you assume nothing has changed" - and why would they? Nothing had changed in thousands of years.

^ This.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Wilshire on August 01, 2017, 11:40:29 am
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.
Can you explain this, I don't think I follow. What's the implication?


2. Mangaecca was a whole School, not just Shauriatas by himself. The Mutilated say that he was the only one who resisted them and was undone. It's unlikely the implied others are exclusively Aurax, Aurang, and Mekeretrig, since at that point Kellhus met every single one of those three (not to mention they obviously weren't undone and replaced by holograms).

Phrasing is particularly important for the Dunyain, and the line I agree that the line I bolded above might imply that Shae may have been the only one to die.

Though, Shae wasn't the kind of person to keep rivals around. When I read the only scene we have of him in his little larval soul circle thing, I got the impression that he murdered his  entire school and chopped them up in order to save himself. If that's not the case, and there's little supporting information for it, then there may yet be a school in Golgotterath.

Assuming you are right, follow up question, is that of major importance? With the NG and an army of sranc, I'm not sure the Consult really need a school. Or, I guess the real question, do you think this is what Bakker is hinting at that we missed?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 11:57:57 am
Well, at the very least, Sos-Praniura, Lord-of-Poisons who was the founder of the Mangaecca, was still alive.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 12:20:44 pm
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.
Can you explain this, I don't think I follow. What's the implication?
I'm completely unsure here, but this bothers me. Nin’ciljiras was a direct descendant of Nin'janjin, who joined the Inchoroi during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars. It's unlikely he was alone (some Sons of Viri rebelled against their King at the sight of the Inchoroi, but only some). And while Nin'janjin died, other Nonmen (like Aporitics) might have worked with the Inchoroi way before any Erratics joined the Consult in search of trauma. So while Aurax and Aurang where the last of the Inchoroi when found by Mangaecca, there might have been Nonmen hidden in the Ark with them. The sudden appearance of a descendant of Nin'janjin, a supreme traitor in the eyes of his own race, seems to correlate with this theory.

There were also, I think, some mentions of Viri's treachery in TUC that might be relevant, but I can't find them without re-reading the book.

Assuming you are right, follow up question, is that of major importance? With the NG and an army of sranc, I'm not sure the Consult really need a school. Or, I guess the real question, do you think this is what Bakker is hinting at that we missed?
I don't think anything is as important as the Whirlwind walking again. Also we were supposed to pick up on whatever we've missed, so it's probably a stroke that complements the whole picture, not significantly changes it.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 12:46:50 pm
I'll need to finish reading and also actually read through and follow along with Bakker's Q&A thread but I'm fairly sure what Bakker thinks is clear - while likely not as clear as he thinks - requires much less mental gymnastics than found in this thread.

Though, common, if you want to bust out a quick nerdanel (where are you, you blessed sage?!), Shauriatas obviously uploaded himself to Ark ;).
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 02:12:37 pm
There are interesting things about Viri in the Glossary.

First we have:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary - "Consult"
The Mangaecca raised Nogaral upon Viri soon after, pretending to plumb the destroyed Nonman Mansion while in fact plumbing the Upright Horn—the intact heart of the Incû-Holoinas.
But then:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary
Dagliash—“Shieldhold” (Ûmeri). The ancient Aörsic fortress overlooking the River Sursa and the Plains of Agongorea, raised in 1601 by Nanor-Mikhus, High-King of Aörsi, upon the ruins of Viri.

Also found the quote on Viri that interested me most in TUC:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Seventeen
“There were three of us,” Mekeritrig continued, raising his eyes to the Inverse Fire. “Wise Misariccas, cold and cruel Rûnidil, and myself. We were wary. Sil had managed to turn not just Nin-janjin, but all of the Viri—a people famed for their mulish will! We knew it had something to do with this place ...”
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: themerchant on August 01, 2017, 02:25:48 pm
There are interesting things about Viri in the Glossary.

First we have:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary - "Consult"
The Mangaecca raised Nogaral upon Viri soon after, pretending to plumb the destroyed Nonman Mansion while in fact plumbing the Upright Horn—the intact heart of the Incû-Holoinas.
But then:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary
Dagliash—“Shieldhold” (Ûmeri). The ancient Aörsic fortress overlooking the River Sursa and the Plains of Agongorea, raised in 1601 by Nanor-Mikhus, High-King of Aörsi, upon the ruins of Viri.
Also found the quote on Viri that interested me most in TUC:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Seventeen
“There were three of us,” Mekeritrig continued, raising his eyes to the Inverse Fire. “Wise Misariccas, cold and cruel Rûnidil, and myself. We were wary. Sil had managed to turn not just Nin-janjin, but all of the Viri—a people famed for their mulish will! We knew it had something to do with this place ...”

You can read about the destruction of Nogaral in the false Sun at the back of TUC.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 02:30:22 pm
There are interesting things about Viri in the Glossary.

First we have:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary - "Consult"
The Mangaecca raised Nogaral upon Viri soon after, pretending to plumb the destroyed Nonman Mansion while in fact plumbing the Upright Horn—the intact heart of the Incû-Holoinas.
But then:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary
Dagliash—“Shieldhold” (Ûmeri). The ancient Aörsic fortress overlooking the River Sursa and the Plains of Agongorea, raised in 1601 by Nanor-Mikhus, High-King of Aörsi, upon the ruins of Viri.
Also found the quote on Viri that interested me most in TUC:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Seventeen
“There were three of us,” Mekeritrig continued, raising his eyes to the Inverse Fire. “Wise Misariccas, cold and cruel Rûnidil, and myself. We were wary. Sil had managed to turn not just Nin-janjin, but all of the Viri—a people famed for their mulish will! We knew it had something to do with this place ...”

Dagliash and Nogaral are not the same thing though.  Dagliash was made on top the ruins of Nogaral after the events of TFS.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 02:31:56 pm
You can read about the destruction of Nogaral in the false Sun at the back of TUC.
Here I'm interested in why Mangaecca felt the need to excavate Viri, or appear to be excavating Viri, when in reality they were focused on rummaging through Golgotterath. While somewhat close, those places are not that close. It took the Great Ordeal days to get from Dagliash to the Horns. I'm not sure I understand the first quote in my previous post in this context.

P.S. I've read "The False Sun" way back when. I love it!
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: profgrape on August 01, 2017, 03:33:50 pm
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 
I'm firmly right here.
Its yet another example of how hubris leads to downfall. After all, whats to fear when you have them shackled, and when you've got magic? Nothing. Nothing that thousands of years of experience hasn't taught - that everything is within your control. Just as Triskele says "you assume nothing has changed" - and why would they? Nothing had changed in thousands of years.

^ This.
To this, I'd add that the Mutilated specifically call out Aurang and Aurax being from a warrior caste.  I suspect that Shae was the brains of the operation -- Aurang and Aurax were like Rocksteady and Bebop from TMNT.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Likaro on August 01, 2017, 03:47:44 pm
I think his cryptic response to my question makes me think that Shae took over the Dunyain and he is playing Kellhus. He needs bodies shorn of passions to occupy and the Dunyain fit that mould perfectly.

I HOPE now that I've thought about it, that is the case.

I'm kind of sick of the Dunyain being the ultimate-at-everything, and was kind of dismayed to find out the Consult were a bunch of paper tigers.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Wilshire on August 01, 2017, 04:15:21 pm
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.
Can you explain this, I don't think I follow. What's the implication?
I'm completely unsure here, but this bothers me. Nin’ciljiras was a direct descendant of Nin'janjin, who joined the Inchoroi during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars. It's unlikely he was alone (some Sons of Viri rebelled against their King at the sight of the Inchoroi, but only some). And while Nin'janjin died, other Nonmen (like Aporitics) might have worked with the Inchoroi way before any Erratics joined the Consult in search of trauma. So while Aurax and Aurang where the last of the Inchoroi when found by Mangaecca, there might have been Nonmen hidden in the Ark with them. The sudden appearance of a descendant of Nin'janjin, a supreme traitor in the eyes of his own race, seems to correlate with this theory.

There were also, I think, some mentions of Viri's treachery in TUC that might be relevant, but I can't find them without re-reading the book.

Ah ok. I've never thought of that, makes sense though.

Assuming you are right, follow up question, is that of major importance? With the NG and an army of sranc, I'm not sure the Consult really need a school. Or, I guess the real question, do you think this is what Bakker is hinting at that we missed?
I don't think anything is as important as the Whirlwind walking again. Also we were supposed to pick up on whatever we've missed, so it's probably a stroke that complements the whole picture, not significantly changes it.

I guess I just don't see how it complements, either way. Though, if it takes a whole school to boot up the No-God, I don't think a single dunyain, though probably metagnostic, would be able to achieve that.
I'd take some solace in that Bakker said he'd give direct answers to things pertaining to the points he was trying to make more obvious. Whatever this is, its obfuscated on purpose.

I think his cryptic response to my question makes me think that Shae took over the Dunyain and he is playing Kellhus. He needs bodies shorn of passions to occupy and the Dunyain fit that mould perfectly.

I HOPE now that I've thought about it, that is the case.

I'm kind of sick of the Dunyain being the ultimate-at-everything, and was kind of dismayed to find out the Consult were a bunch of paper tigers.

Duunyain supremacy is largely an illusion though. The dunyain suffer as the gods do from their own blindness. Are they some kind of super human race bred over thousands of years, yeah sure. But they still screw up like the rest of us. We haven't seen a single dunyain, full or half,  actually succeed - unless you're of the camp that thinks Moenghus, Koringhus, and Kellhus ascended into heaven and now rule gently over us all as the father, son, and holy ghost.
A more reasonable outcome is that they are all dead, they failed because of mistakes they made.

But yeah, dunyain vs. human must end with dunyain winning. Its really the basis of the entire story, and while some humans got close they always lost. I'd be disappointing if random mostly-dead sorcerer guy from X thousand years ago somehow beat 5 super-humans as it doesn't fit particularly well into the worldbuilding (imo).

Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 01, 2017, 04:25:32 pm
I guess I just don't see how it complements, either way. Though, if it takes a whole school to boot up the No-God, I don't think a single dunyain, though probably metagnostic, would be able to achieve that.
I was thinking more along the lines of underscoring the Consult's resources here.

Duunyain supremacy is largely an illusion though. The dunyain suffer as the gods do from their own blindness. Are they some kind of super human race bred over thousands of years, yeah sure. But they still screw up like the rest of us. We haven't seen a single dunyain, full or half,  actually succeed - unless you're of the camp that thinks Moenghus, Koringhus, and Kellhus ascended into heaven and now rule gently over us all as the father, son, and holy ghost.
A more reasonable outcome is that they are all dead, they failed because of mistakes they made.

But yeah, dunyain vs. human must end with dunyain winning. Its really the basis of the entire story, and while some humans got close they always lost. I'd be disappointing if random mostly-dead sorcerer guy from X thousand years ago somehow beat 5 super-humans as it doesn't fit particularly well into the worldbuilding (imo).
I should say I'm more or less in the same camp, at least presently.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Likaro on August 01, 2017, 04:29:03 pm
-But Shae is not an idiot in fact he has been shown to be very clever in the False Sun, and presumably after thousands of years of mental activity he would be even smarter. He also should know much more about sorcery and soul trapping/possession than fresh out 'da hall Dunyain would, after what, only three years from Ishaul? The Dunyain are masters at certain things but the things they are ignorant of- they are helpless. So to me it does fit in the worldbuilding that he could take 5 down because of their ignorance of sorcery.

Since they are all carved up it seems to me that someone was picking them apart trying to figure out what made them kick? Or were the mutilations done by fellow Dunyain before the Consult captured them, or after by the consult?

Anyway, even Kellhus had to be taught Gnostic sorcery. He wasn't so brilliant that he could just watch Akka and pick it up, because of the inutterals.

So that means someone had to have taught the Dunyain Mutilated sorcery. So either Aurang and Mek were subsumed and were the teachers... or Shae is doing the casting.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Tyrin on August 01, 2017, 04:45:43 pm
-But Shae is not an idiot in fact he has been shown to be very clever in the False Sun, and presumably after thousands of years of mental activity he would be even smarter.

Right. I mean, he and Aurang tricked and killed Titirga, who was basically the most powerful mage in history until Kellhus. (Kellhus is even directly compared to Titirga in TGO, iirc)

So that means someone had to have taught the Dunyain Mutilated sorcery.

That's the big question. Maybe a simple answer is that the Consult specifically sought out the Dunyain to capture/convert them to their cause, and settled on just taking a handful since taking all of Ishual would be much more risky/unpredictable. In that case everyone (except Shae possibly for reasons of pride/ego) is fine adding them to the cause since even if they "dominate", ultimately all of them are slaves to the Ark/No-God anyway, so it's basically a question of semantics.

On the other hand the specific assumption that seemed to trigger Bakker's reply that we've missed "something significant" seems to be the assumption that the Consult is severely undermanned and/or stupid. The reason I don't think the answer is as simple as hubris/arrogance is that it's too obvious and doesn't strike me as "significant", though my value judgment there is clearly subjective.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Wilshire on August 01, 2017, 04:51:03 pm
Bakker is a master of the cagey, non-informative-answers when he wants to. We'll be circling this for some time.


Someone teaching the Dunyain is definitely something to consider.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: The Sharmat on August 01, 2017, 11:36:30 pm
Maybe the obvious thing we've missed in regards to the Consult being undermanned/stupid is that the Dunyain take over was not remotely bloodless. Shauriatas may have been the only Old Name that was undone but it doesn't mean Golgotterath didn't run red (violet?) before the five became the leaders of the Consult. And I don't think they set out to recruit the Dunyain. It's just, Erratics are rather unpredictable, and Dunyain can be good at learning what noises to make to keep them engaged.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 11:55:46 pm
They may have destroyed Dagliash to hide something?  That pause that Kellhus takes while staring at the device bugs me.  Apparently, it's what showed him he was striving against Dunyain, but maybe me missed at least a piece of what they were up to.  Did they find something in Viri after all?  Something work destroying vice potentially being discovered by the enemy?

Probably off topic, but there was a forum where Bakker almost casually mentions that the Tusk was a Consult contrivance, and it has steered men since their passage from Eanna(misspelled?), basically demanding the death of the Nonmen, and sorcerers, but acknowledging the existence and even the names of the Gods. Why would it do that?  The Consult wanted the Cishaurim dead.  And that God.  Damned.  Nail of Heaven floating around that I KNOW can't just be a star.  Too much about the Consult we just don't have the right perspective on to allow us to even ask the right questions.  It's an itch, but I'm not sure where it is, so I can't scratch it.  Drives me crazy, but in a good way.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 12:15:52 am
It was probably easier to insert modifications to existing oral scriptures than to make up myths whole cloth and hope the five tribes would swallow them.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 02, 2017, 01:34:46 am
Probably off topic, but there was a forum where Bakker almost casually mentions that the Tusk was a Consult contrivance, and it has steered men since their passage from Eanna(misspelled?), basically demanding the death of the Nonmen, and sorcerers, but acknowledging the existence and even the names of the Gods. Why would it do that?  The Consult wanted the Cishaurim dead.  And that God.  Damned.  Nail of Heaven floating around that I KNOW can't just be a star.  Too much about the Consult we just don't have the right perspective on to allow us to even ask the right questions.  It's an itch, but I'm not sure where it is, so I can't scratch it.  Drives me crazy, but in a good way.

You've completely missed what's going on with the Tusk.  The Inchoroi put all of humanities myths on the Tusk and inserted a few of their own to direct them against Nonmen and sorcery.  If the Inchoroi hadn't covered the Tusk with human myths, humans wouldn't have regarded it as a holy object which means the Inchoroi have to be sparing with their editions for it to be accepted as authentic. The Cishaurim didn't exist back then and the reason why the Consult wanted them dead was because Moenghus was finding their skin spies.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 02:15:17 am
Probably off topic, but there was a forum where Bakker almost casually mentions that the Tusk was a Consult contrivance, and it has steered men since their passage from Eanna(misspelled?), basically demanding the death of the Nonmen, and sorcerers, but acknowledging the existence and even the names of the Gods. Why would it do that?  The Consult wanted the Cishaurim dead.  And that God.  Damned.  Nail of Heaven floating around that I KNOW can't just be a star.  Too much about the Consult we just don't have the right perspective on to allow us to even ask the right questions.  It's an itch, but I'm not sure where it is, so I can't scratch it.  Drives me crazy, but in a good way.

R. Scott Bakker interview (part 2) (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.ca/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html)
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Wilshire on August 02, 2017, 11:35:51 am
Something maybe that's been missed, it at least people have pointed out yet:
Another juxtiposition if events, another example of history repeating.

The Ishroi plunder of Min Uroikas and the subsequent survival of the Inchoroi who then later come back as friends to the Nonmen, ultimately leading to their demise.

The Consult plunder of Ishual, an event that just like above takes years, and the subsequent survivors eventually subsume the Consult.

These two events are extremely similar, the survivors of a moribund race devastating the victors - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: stuslayer on August 02, 2017, 12:05:28 pm
Hello,

I've been reading the series for the past few years and this is the first time I've posted here, though I've lurked and read the many threads about here lots of times. It's such an amazing series that can provoke such discussion and musings as you good people have over the last few years. It need not be said how much i love this series - I'm here posting, right?

Anyway, a few things that just occurred to me as possibilities on this question, were: how do we know that the Consult were not aware, perhaps even had a hand in, the foundation of Ishual in the first place?

We know that the Anasurimbor are peculiarly predicated to provide the 'missing link' for the No-God to be initialised. The consult and the Inchoroi play the exceedingly long game. It seems clear that Nau Cayuti is the original 'circuit' for the No-God, and we are told through Achamian's Dreams that Celmomas set up Ishual as a stronghold for the preservation of the Anasurimbor. But how much stock should we put in Achamian's Dreams, when we are not even sure what their origin is?

Further, we learn in TUC from the Mutilated about the need for an Anasurimbor, how they think they have 'subsumed' the Consult, and that the Consult captured them to take them back to Golgotterath for their own ends. What if those ends are exactly what has happened, i.e. that the Consult realised the best possibility to ensure an Anasurimbor was available to resurrect the No-God was to capture some Dunyain and use them against Kellhus?

Kelmomas is named for Celmomas, the prophecy of the Return was his prophecy, surely there isn't a coincidence here. And we also know that Kelmomas is one of the Few. Also significant in this context, I think.

How did consult find and destroy Ishual so quickly? (20 years is not a long time in the scope of their 'long game') Or, did they already know it's whereabouts because they had a hand in it's foundation? It seems strange to me that the Dunyain in their own fortress should be so easily overcome, yet the captured Dunyain be so easily able to overcome the Consult in their own house.

Further to the above, the Logos and the Tekne are certainly related to each other - the Mutilated coming to the conclusion that the Tekne is equivalent to the Logos to me could suggest that this was the point all along - Ishual was for the Consult a kind of insurance policy, in case their own designs to bring about Resumption using the Tekne failed, they would also have a sect devoted to reaching the Absolute, essentially seeking a different path to the same end.


Anyway, I'm putting all this together sat at work without the books in front of me, so it may be missing important information that negates some of the above, but it seems to me that the thing we could be missing is that the long game of the Consult far outstrips even the Mandate mission against the Consult, and that with so much time to plan, perhaps everything has worked out as they originally intended.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Madness on August 02, 2017, 12:36:22 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, stuslayer. I hope you're not here hunting our Stus ;).
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: H on August 02, 2017, 12:43:48 pm
How did consult find and destroy Ishual so quickly? (20 years is not a long time in the scope of their 'long game') Or, did they already know it's whereabouts because they had a hand in it's foundation? It seems strange to me that the Dunyain in their own fortress should be so easily overcome, yet the captured Dunyain be so easily able to overcome the Consult in their own house.

First of, welcome to the forum, great first post.

Now, the issue of the Consult founding the Dûnyain, is in my mind, a question of, if they did why didn't they remember?  Aurang recalls all sorts of things from his "past selves" but forgets something that important?  If it was Shae or Mek that did it in secret, again, why do it in secret?

On Ishuäl itself, well, the Dûnyain were protected far more by secrecy than by any fortress.  From what we latter learn, it did take them something like 4 years to clear the place though, so I wouldn't really call that easy.  Many things are solvable with nearly a million dispensable troops, not to mention disposable sorcerers though.

Thing is, I am not so sure the plan wasn't to bring those who would become the Mutilated into the fold.  Of course, what they failed to realize is that by doing so, they were sowing their own demise even as they furthered their own goal.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 02, 2017, 12:49:00 pm
Probably off topic, but there was a forum where Bakker almost casually mentions that the Tusk was a Consult contrivance, and it has steered men since their passage from Eanna(misspelled?), basically demanding the death of the Nonmen, and sorcerers, but acknowledging the existence and even the names of the Gods. Why would it do that?

I think it's interesting that like the Dunyain the Consult controls with the truth (that Nonmen and sorcerers are damned). As for why it acknowledges the gods? Well, the gods are real and as we have seen they don't take to kindly to fals prophets (though some disagree with that interpretation). If they had gone "Kill all the Nonmen and sorcerers, and by the way the gods are bullshit too", first of all they probably would not have been believed. Secondly, the gods would probably have intervened and the Tusk wouldn't have remained as a holy text for this long. It's better to play on the believes that already exist and make them work for you.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 02, 2017, 12:54:11 pm
Many things are solvable with nearly a million dispensable troops, not to mention disposable sorcerers though.

Yes, and both Kellhus and Moe sr. was pretty flippant about revealing who they were at the beginning. Kellhus actually had a small following somewhere north prior to meeting Cnair. Pretty sure the Consult found those people and convinced them to share what they know.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 01:39:27 pm
Didn't all of the Adunyani from Atrithau accompany him south as meatshields and end up dead?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2017, 01:41:16 pm
Didn't all of the Adunyani from Atrithau accompany him south as meatshields and end up dead?

I think this was the case, yes. I don't think the Consult got any information from them.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: H on August 02, 2017, 02:15:23 pm
Didn't all of the Adunyani from Atrithau accompany him south as meatshields and end up dead?

I think this was the case, yes. I don't think the Consult got any information from them.

Sure, but the Consult knew the name "Dûnyain" after this.  Not to mention, Kellhus was not shy in telling it to everyone in the Holy War too.

Aurang (now we can probably safely assume it was him) in the end of TWP is pretty adamant on finding out out more about them.  It is very hard to find a needle in a haystack.  But it is impossible to find a needle in a haystack when you don't know there is a needle, let alone a haystack.  Once the Consult realizes there is a place in the North where the Dûnyain come from, presumably somewhere near Atrithau, their near unlimited manpower can solve the problem of finding it.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: stuslayer on August 02, 2017, 02:59:41 pm
Thanks for the welcome  ;D

I wonder if the point here is the Worldly powers (Dunyain, Consult, Kellhus) thinking they have more control and power over events than they do, and that this ultimate belief leads to their ultimate downfall...
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 02, 2017, 03:06:53 pm
Didn't all of the Adunyani from Atrithau accompany him south as meatshields and end up dead?

Yes, but that's just the ones who joined him. Their friends and family must have heard about him too, and if he preached in public there must have been more people who heard some of what he had to say, but not enough to go with him to the south.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2017, 03:13:52 pm
Yes, but that's just the ones who joined him. Their friends and family must have heard about him too, and if he preached in public there must have been more people who heard some of what he had to say, but not enough to go with him to the south.

That's right, there would definitely be still people left in Atrithau that Kellhus had interacted with. Then it's very much possible that the Consult got a lead on the Dûnyain from them.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Tyrin on August 02, 2017, 06:55:51 pm
So Bakker just posted this response in the reddit AMA about 20 minutes ago:


[–]neonowain 3 points 2 hours ago*

Hello from Russia Scott! Thanks for your work. I believe you're the best writer in the genre now. I wanted to ask you one question. We know the fate of Shauriatis, but what about other Mangaecca schoolmen? Did they all perish in the first Apocalypse? Did they all fall victim to Shae's magic experiments? Or is the answer to this question a spoiler for the third series? (Sorry for my English)

    permalinkembedreport

[–]RScottBakker22AMA Author 2 points 24 minutes ago

Welcome Neonowain!

Do we know the fate of Shauriatis? The Mangaecca, on the other hand, died out a long time ago.



So he has either picked up on our grasping and is messing with us a little, or jurble's Shae-as-Mutilated theory is really onto something.


Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: The Sharmat on August 02, 2017, 07:23:54 pm
If the fate of the Mangaecca was supposed to be clear in the text it went right past me. If it wasn't, I wish he wouldn't say stuff like that on random Q&A sessions. It's like that thing with the Tusk all over again.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: jurble on August 02, 2017, 07:24:14 pm
He was already coy about the Shauriyain...Dunriatis...Shaeonanyain...Dunonanra.. theory in the Q&A.   But I'm not sure it's the same as the thing we missed about the Consult.  It might be? But it doesn't explain the Consult's lack of thinking/sane manpower over the years which the missing revelation should apparently address.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: stuslayer on August 02, 2017, 08:21:28 pm
Just a thought - what if the Consult used up all their 'manpower' trying to resurrect the No-God, leaving them with just a handful of commanders and the realisation that only an Anasurimbor would do? Would that make sense?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 03:35:57 am
I suppose it's possible. No huge prisoner trains to Golgotterath this time.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: littlegrice on August 03, 2017, 03:47:15 am
He was already coy about the Shauriyain...Dunriatis...Shaeonanyain...Dunonanra.. theory in the Q&A.   But I'm not sure it's the same as the thing we missed about the Consult.  It might be? But it doesn't explain the Consult's lack of thinking/sane manpower over the years which the missing revelation should apparently address.

Lol how about the Doomyain?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 01:08:49 pm
While this theory has grown on me, mostly due to Somnambulist's reminder of sorcerous compulsions, I'm going to suggest that when Bakker says fans missed something, I take him to mean something either entirely thematic or some narrative event that he thinks is clear but which is actually less clear than he thinks.

And I'll resubmit that the much more thematically concise answer is that Shauriatas figured out, probably with the help of the Mutilated, how to upload himself to the Ark.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: H on August 03, 2017, 01:25:50 pm
While this theory has grown on me, mostly due to Somnambulist's reminder of sorcerous compulsions, I'm going to suggest that when Bakker says fans missed something, I take him to mean something either entirely thematic or some narrative event that he thinks is clear but which is actually less clear than he thinks.

And I'll resubmit that the much more thematically concise answer is that Shauriatas figured out, probably with the help of the Mutilated, how to upload himself to the Ark.

Or he figured out that running the whole operation was better suited to a group of human computers.  In other words, the Mutilated are Shae's Inchoroi.
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: The Sharmat on August 03, 2017, 02:47:05 pm
And I'll resubmit that the much more thematically concise answer is that Shauriatas figured out, probably with the help of the Mutilated, how to upload himself to the Ark.
What makes you say that?
Title: Re: Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed
Post by: Madness on August 03, 2017, 03:34:41 pm
Well, I put it forward as a joke mid-thread because - while remarkably consistent - a couple weeks ago nerdanels like Moe = Meppa or Moenghus + Cnaiur = Meppa were far-fetched and now we're at Baby Kellhus and Shae the Mutilated ;).

But as I've explained it to a couple members now, Shauriatas figuring out with the help of the Mutilated - since the Tekne is basically tailor-made to be taken apart by Dunyain philosophy - to upload himself to the Ark fits in nicely with our real world commentary on post-human aspirations (uploading ourselves to computers) as well as in-Earwa functioning to "save Shauriatas' soul."

As I said above, I actually think Bakker's comments suggest that the something missed is far more mundane: entirely thematic or else a narrative occurrence which Bakker thinks is obvious and isn't.

Fodder for the masses ;).