The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Davias on November 07, 2014, 06:26:50 pm
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I have a short question for you, guys.
I am currently rereading the White Luck Warrior and something about the assembling of the Ten-Yoke-Legion bothers me a little. Maybe I don't understand it right because I didn't read it in all detail the first time.
The consult uses the Erratic to assembling a great host, to battle the Ordeal. It seems, the sranc were driven against Kellhus army by the scent of humans, I understand that.
But why have the consult not thought of sending sranc this way into the Three Seas before?
Even a smaller horde would probably have been enough to overwhelm the Nansur and Galeoth, or other countrys.
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I think the biggest reason why they haven't done it before is that while it would do some damage, it would ultimately work against the Consult's goals.
First, it would be incredibly hard to get the legion to an area where it could really do some damage. They'd have to sneak by Sakarpus. And then get through the Kethol Pass. Given that it's more-or-less the TS gateway to the North, I can't imagine that it isn't carefully watched if not well-defended. It seems like a mass of frenzied Sranc in a confined space would be easy fodder, especially when you add sorcerors to the mix.
Supposing that even if they somehow manage to get past Sakarpus *and* get through the Kethol Pass, it probably wouldn't happen so fast that the other countries couldn't mount a formidable defense. In the long run, it would only serve to unite the disparate Three Seas nations against the Consult. In the PON, the Consult's whole MO was to avoid a united resistance by Man and remaining in the shadows until the No-God could be resurrected.
That all being said, with the majority of the TS military might in the field and chaos throughout the Empire, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if this sort of thing happened in TUC. :-)
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I would say that we don't really know what the Inchoroi are trying to do at this point. For some reason they have left TS alone for some 300 years. They probably are just waiting to be 100% sure they can win, ie waiting for the No-God. They thought they could kill the Nonmen, and failed, thought they could destroy Man, and failed. There are apparently only 2 of the Inchoroi left, and they are entirely sick of losing.
Better to wait for attrition, like they did with Nonmen, than full out war, which has thus far failed every time on Earwa.
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Using them as a buffer so they could keep doing whatever it is they've been doing for the last 2,000 years. It's probably just best to let them reproduce out of control rather than whittle them down through minor expeditions. It seems like the Inchoroi havr always drawn out their enemies to them before springing the howling multitudes of Sranc upon them.
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Good points, Bolivar. It makes sense to use the sranc hordes as a "buffer". The last inchoroi may only have had one priority in the last centuries: The resurrecting of the no-god to gain their ultimate victory over Eärwa.
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The first time the Inchoroi used the Sranc they used them as a surprise advantage against the Nonmen after having them tunnelled underground for miles. The Men of the Great Ordeal seem just as surprised by the sheer numbers of the Yoke, it's a similar sort of play by the Inchies.
I think ultimately the Inchoroi play the long game, no reason to unify the whole of the sane Three Seas before fruition of their long game plans.
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great question Davias! i had never thought about it! i guess there would be some concern about losing irreplaceable erratics meanwhile they still want to make Mog. in their minds, their may be no moves worth making except those which bring back Mog. 1 No-God + 2000 year incubating sranc population means the world is screwed no matter wat (except for the meta-meta-meta-meta-gnosis).
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In the first trilogy, one of the common arguments employed by Mandate emissaries was "Before the First Apocalypse, Nonmen and Norsira had pressed Sranc to the furthest margins of the world, an the No-God could still summon untold numbers to him. Now, the Sranc have owned and bred across half the known world for two thousand years. If the No-God is reborn, and all the Sranc unite under a single will, we are absolutely fucked."
I think the Consult took exactly the right strategy, given their knowledge. It's not like they could have anticipated the Dunyain. You cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten.
That all being said, with the majority of the TS military might in the field and chaos throughout the Empire, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if this sort of thing happened in TUC. :-)
I think they'll take a different tack. After a year or two of suddenly greatly intensified activity on the borders of the Steppe, halfway through The White Luck Warrior, the Scylvendi tribes go completely quiet.
I expect to hear of a new King-of-Trbes and a united Horde exploding into the Nansurium to worship and rejoice at the immanent return of Lokung soon.
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Scylvendi from the West, Sranc yoke legions from the east. The Ordeal will come home to a ruined wasteland.
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The ordeal isn't coming home (in my opinion of course) unless they get to the coffers and find an upturned truck of "three sea ruby slippers" to click 3 times.
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Enter Esmi, Meppa, Kel and Zeum to hold it all together for any of the Ordeal returning?
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I'd be surprised if anyone from the Ordeal made it back. I'm honestly skeptical that Kellhus even planned for a return trip. I could still be surprised though.
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I don't think Kellhus planned for the vehicle that is The Ordeal to make it back. But he is much too self centered to, Zaudunyaini faith not included, at least plan for himself to return... In whatever form or function he might be fulfilling at that point.
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I dunno. Is Kellhus self-centered? I'm not sure how truly Dunyain he is any more. His talks with Proyas are quite weird.
I really have little idea what to think about his plans and goals at the moment.
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Scylvendi from the West, Sranc yoke legions from the east. The Ordeal will come home to a ruined wasteland.
don't forget the Eannorians!
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Enter Esmi, Meppa, Kel and Zeum to hold it all together for any of the Ordeal returning?
i wonder if Kellhus has a plan for return just for show--as in, in order to gain the Great Ordeal's trust, he needs to at least seem to have a return trip plan for the army?
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Enter Esmi, Meppa, Kel and Zeum to hold it all together for any of the Ordeal returning?
i wonder if Kellhus has a plan for return just for show--as in, in order to gain the Great Ordeal's trust, he needs to at least seem to have a return trip plan for the army?
This seems very likely.
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Enter Esmi, Meppa, Kel and Zeum to hold it all together for any of the Ordeal returning?
i wonder if Kellhus has a plan for return just for show--as in, in order to gain the Great Ordeal's trust, he needs to at least seem to have a return trip plan for the army?
Absolute authority upon return after he disposes of the majority of his possible "rivals" by grinding them against the consult.
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I think they'll take a different tack. After a year or two of suddenly greatly intensified activity on the borders of the Steppe, halfway through The White Luck Warrior, the Scylvendi tribes go completely quiet.
I expect to hear of a new King-of-Trbes and a united Horde exploding into the Nansurium to worship and rejoice at the immanent return of Lokung soon.
Man, I forgot about this. I remember the tribes going quiet and all, but the idea of a new, Consult-bolstered Horde storming into the Three Seas (just in time to fuck up everybody's shit, Fanayal included) sounds...awesome, in a horrible way. Despite their utter brutality, I kinda love the Scylvendi. Does that make me weird?
Also, I love the idea of the Scylvendi sending that one son to be a member of the Scions, even though we know for a fact that such a hostage would be utterly meaningless to the Scylvendi themselves, as seen with Cnaiur's reaction to the enslaved Xunnurit all the way back in the first book.
Random tangential question: Did any of Cniaur's children (aside from Lil Moe) survive, that we know of?
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Cnaiur had many wives, and was certainly of child baring age for several decades as head of the Utemont. He certainly had a decent brood.
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I'd be surprised if anyone from the Ordeal made it back. I'm honestly skeptical that Kellhus even planned for a return trip. I could still be surprised though.
me too. if the GO wins, there might still be this huge sranc problem--as in Consult higher ups gone, but minions still teeming. the GO will be eating sranc meat, at least for a while, on the way back too. they are going to be so sranced-up that they won't be fit for civilization any more
@ Davias - could be the Consult needed all those erratics for their eons long work and are now sending them into the field because the work is done or they are panicking about the GO's chances?
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Man, I forgot about this. I remember the tribes going quiet and all, but the idea of a new, Consult-bolstered Horde storming into the Three Seas (just in time to fuck up everybody's shit, Fanayal included) sounds...awesome, in a horrible way.
This.
We hear a lot about the Scylvendi being the horsemen of the apocalypse, this unstoppable force of destruction, so I'd also like to see that happen on-page. Overrunning all of the Three Seas, wrecking both the Fanim and the Inrithi, and just storming in and burning down civilization. It'd be a great climax to the Momemn storyline, plus it makes the Consult look a lot smarter and Kellhus a lot more machiavellian if he knew this would happen.
Also, I love the idea of the Scylvendi sending that one son to be a member of the Scions, even though we know for a fact that such a hostage would be utterly meaningless to the Scylvendi themselves
Even funnier is that the Scylvendi hostage was the only scion who survived the Sranc battle, apart from Sorweel and Tsoronga.
Random tangential question: Did any of Cniaur's children (aside from Lil Moe) survive, that we know of?
No idea, because we don't know much about Cnaiür's children in the first place. He has a lot of them, though, so some of them should still be around. This is how we're introduced to him: "He owned eight wives, thirty slaves, and three hundred cattle. He had fathered thirty-seven sons, nineteen of the pure blood."
Cnaiür's pre-teen daughter Sanathi is the only one of his kids who's named in the text. He only really thinks about Sanathi and her mother Anissi - the rest of his family goes totally neglected.
(No idea if this is meant to show that Cnaiür's single-minded obsession with Kellhus/Moengus is so overwhelming that he forgets his family, or that the Scylvendi culture is extremely warlike and doesn't care about family sentiment. Or maybe just Bakker not being bothered with endless tertiary characters - while something like Game of Thrones would've named his entire family tree.)
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Well according to some if you like the Scyvendli and Cnaüir in particular, you condone rape. As for any of his brood surviving, the odds are in favor of that. Will we get a Scyvendli hoard that is attached to the Consult? I'd say yes, but I'd never thought of that before. What I keep thinking about is how the Skin-Spies and Aurang befriended Cnaüir. Was that just to learn if the Dûnyain? The the most logical answer. Yet, the ending of Moe and Cnaüir's meeting in Kyudea is so vague and leaves many outcomes to be suggested. If Meppa is not the creation of Moe+Cnaüir, tell me what would screw with Kellhus's mind more than him seeing Cnaüir in TUC. Why wouldn't one of the Skin-Spies used Cnaüir? Cnaüir more than anyone is a threat to Kellhus. Its another reason I'm a firm believer in Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa. The Skin-Spies knew that Kellhus feared what Cnaüir knew about him and you think they'd use that to their advantage.
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Well according to some if you like the Scyvendli and Cnaüir in particular, you condone rape. As for any of his brood surviving, the odds are in favor of that. Will we get a Scyvendli hoard that is attached to the Consult? I'd say yes, but I'd never thought of that before. What I keep thinking about is how the Skin-Spies and Aurang befriended Cnaüir. Was that just to learn if the Dûnyain? The the most logical answer. Yet, the ending of Moe and Cnaüir's meeting in Kyudea is so vague and leaves many outcomes to be suggested. If Meppa is not the creation of Moe+Cnaüir, tell me what would screw with Kellhus's mind more than him seeing Cnaüir in TUC. Why wouldn't one of the Skin-Spies used Cnaüir? Cnaüir more than anyone is a threat to Kellhus. Its another reason I'm a firm believer in Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa. The Skin-Spies knew that Kellhus feared what Cnaüir knew about him and you think they'd use that to their advantage.
are hinting that the Consult could use a skin-spy to appear as Cnaiur to fuck with Kellhus head? that would be cool! i don't know if it has been explored, but has anyone considered that Moe's soul could have fled his body and traveled into one of the skin-spies in kyudea? that would be pretty neat. they have an empty slot for a soul and bodies capable of dunyain-level physical feats.
i'm not sure about the Scylvendi showing back up in a significant way. it's only been 19 years since they were crushed and Kellhus has been the military mind on watch the whole time. i wonder if Esmi's concern about the Scylvendi is foreshadowing or just decoy. could be that Kellhus has, to some degree, forcefully reorganized the tribes into a more hierarchical system, like he did with the Mandate. Tinnurit, could be really important in that scheme.
if using a chorae on a sorcerer near a soulless derived critter means the sorcerer's soul has an opportunity to inhabit the derived thingy, then Kellhus may have the WLW figured out. get stabbed by WLW. get choraed by Zeumi prince, jump ship to nearby skin-spy he's been keeping around just for this purpose, voila!
maybe Kellhus will have Proyas killed and replaced by a skin-spy (one he's reprogrammed), so Kellhus can even pretend to be dead and act like he's Proyas carrying on the martyred Warrior Prophet's great scheme. could be a real motivator for the troops. Kellhus-as-Proyas could even pretend that the WP miraculously gave him the metagnosis as a sign that they should complete the mission
could be Kellhus has replaced all kinds of people around him with turned skin-spies: Iyokus maybe, maybe Esmi is one, just programmed to think that it isn't a skin-spy, let's see how Esmi responds to a paradox
Saccarees and Sarl might work
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Yes ,that's exactly what I was implying. If the Skin-Spies use whoever they can to manipulate situations, than why not Cnaüir? Its just an obviously thing to do.
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The thing I keep thinking though is we've not really seen the "real" battle yet. Which is the Battle Kellhus is really fighting atm (hence no PoV), while ostensibly fighting the visible battle of stopping the No-God being resurrected. Proyas even thinks about him fighting a battle of maddening subtlety or realizes it.
There's still a missing part to the battle that we're not privy too , and which i'm sure the TUC will finally let us know. I imagine it will all go to shit. The Great Ordeal is being lured to Dagliash. Where it will be almost obliterated but ultimately saved by Nonman Chariots who came because Mimara child is born which reminds them of something/or Serwe seduces one and sleeps with them and gets pregnant. Kellhus goes away to do whatever the real battle is.
Yeah i really want to know what the real battle is. Though the Scylvendi attacking 3 seas means most of humanity is fighting and dying at some place or another.
I also don't think the Consult have much chance against Kellhus in a game of wits. I also think he has bigger fish to fry.
Also way back in the first trilogy, Kellhus looked deeply into Akka and saw his hidden strength, seeing everyone thought him weak, but some men had to be hewn by experience. Let's be honest between Seswatha, first holy war and the slog of slogs he;s ready to step up, vindicated by Kellhus to Proyas. Undefeated in sorcerous battle (he didn't have to fight straight from bed) be it Cish, Scarlet schoolman, imperial Saik, Father of Dragons, Nonman King, sranc, bashrag, imperial columns. Qirri-strength Akka is here and he is dreamy funky shit.
or him and mimara sneak there way to golgerath or soemthing.
Basically i don't know.
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Yes ,that's exactly what I was implying. If the Skin-Spies use whoever they can to manipulate situations, than why not Cnaüir? Its just an obviously thing to do.
Kellhus confronted by 4 dozen Cnaiurs at Dagliash!
@ themerchant - if Kellhus suspects treason from the Nonmen, then maybe the Niom is the way to outmaneuver them. he agrees to the Niom, so the nonmen send their best to watch the show, Kellhus disapparates and showes up at Ishterebinth, kicks ass with Serwa while all the Ishroi are divided between their home and the battle, disapparates with Serwa to appear at the Ark, kills/joins/enslaves Shauriatus, becomes Mog!
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Was musing about the part where we are told that the sranc hoard is so large that it could never realize that it had been defeated. That part really gets me. In TWP things wrap up just the way they do because of the revelation of "indomitable belief" but the secret of battle doesn't apply to the sranc. The hoard is apparently so large that the Great Ordeal's beliefs are neutered.
I wonder where Bakker is going with that. He's worked hard to create this world where belief can effect reality but now he's throwing the believers into a situation where their belief would seem to matter not at all. Will we see a manifestation of belief that is so incredible that it makes the breaking of the Siege of Caraskand look feeble? Or is Bakker setting up the inevitable moment when belief finds it's extreme limitation?
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Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.
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Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is a delusion. But it's a delusion that makes real. A viramsata, was it, that the Nilnameshi called it? The Horde is by necessity too big of an entity to ever come to a conclusion about winning or losing, so it's impenetrable to this tactic. They're not an army or a civilization. They're just a swarm. Ignorance is strength etc etc
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Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is a delusion. But it's a delusion that makes real. A viramsata, was it, that the Nilnameshi called it? The Horde is by necessity too big of an entity to ever come to a conclusion about winning or losing, so it's impenetrable to this tactic. They're not an army or a civilization. They're just a swarm. Ignorance is strength etc etc
I could almost imagine that Bakker will take the story in this direction...
-NG returns
-Everybody dies. All of them.
-Nothing left except Consult, Derived, and 144k in axotl tanks in Ark
-Sranc constitute the population of whatever
-Skinspies begin to see themselves as special and separate from the brutish sranc and the tyranical Consult
-Skinspies attempt to break Eden, overthrow NG
idk--i was just thinking that in the absence of humans, skinspies would suddenly be like the pinnacle of civilization.
i wonder how long it would take for the Derived to develop anti-Consult tendencies? genetic drift and wotnot
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Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.
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Isn't his 'secret of battle' implicitly an illusion/delusion?
"Indomitable conviction. Unconquerable belief." - or something along those lines, is the secret of battle.
Those words, to me, especially when wielded by Kellhus or in light of viramsata, are pretty meaningless. It requires nothing tangible, just the belief and/or feeling that what you are doing is correct. In other words, pure delusion. Delude yourself until you're unbeatable, that you will win no matter the odds, etc etc.
What this, the whole battle outside Caraskand, and the entire Holy War really, shows us is that the the numbers aren't the only deciding factor - and the more belief you have the less the actual numbers are important. When Cnaiur is teaching Kellhus war, this is pretty much the whole lesson, looking no further than the loss in Shigek when the camp is attacked. Its why he makes a stand with the standard. The battle is lost once you or the enemy is convinced that they lost, regardless of what the actual battlefield looks like. Looking strictly at numbers, and tactics (ignoring plot devices and the necessities of the plot itself) the Holy War should have failed many times.
Same thing goes with the Ordeal and its various wins/losses. They are always outnumbered by sranc, but that doesn't mean they lose every engagement. Tactics, schoolmen, training, etc. etc. yes, but when the Men of the Tusk sing their hymes and refuse to die against all odds, things turn out better. When they fear defeat, they are defeated
Numbers and beliefs both serve vital roles in military engagement. Victory is much more difficult if you only have one or the other.
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Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Isn't his 'secret of battle' implicitly an illusion/delusion?
"Indomitable conviction. Unconquerable belief." - or something along those lines, is the secret of battle.
Those words, to me, especially when wielded by Kellhus or in light of viramsata, are pretty meaningless. It requires nothing tangible, just the belief and/or feeling that what you are doing is correct. In other words, pure delusion. Delude yourself until you're unbeatable, that you will win no matter the odds, etc etc.
What this, the whole battle outside Caraskand, and the entire Holy War really, shows us is that the the numbers aren't the only deciding factor - and the more belief you have the less the actual numbers are important. When Cnaiur is teaching Kellhus war, this is pretty much the whole lesson, looking no further than the loss in Shigek when the camp is attacked. Its why he makes a stand with the standard. The battle is lost once you or the enemy is convinced that they lost, regardless of what the actual battlefield looks like. Looking strictly at numbers, and tactics (ignoring plot devices and the necessities of the plot itself) the Holy War should have failed many times.
Same thing goes with the Ordeal and its various wins/losses. They are always outnumbered by sranc, but that doesn't mean they lose every engagement. Tactics, schoolmen, training, etc. etc. yes, but when the Men of the Tusk sing their hymes and refuse to die against all odds, things turn out better. When they fear defeat, they are defeated
Numbers and beliefs both serve vital roles in military engagement. Victory is much more difficult if you only have one or the other.
I love that you brought this up, because I've been thinking about it lately.
I have a few thoughts:
Indomitable Conviction/Unconquerable Belief - You make a good point that have both belief and numbers are an advantage and having only one of those two make winning more difficult. However, history both near and far gives us examples of conviction and belief winning battles against superior numbers. Marines in WW2 did it many times in the Pacific while fighting the Japanese. Same in Korea when a surrounded Marine commander said, "now we can attack in any direction" after being given word that they were surrounded.
Numbers - I'm doing a reread of the final battle in Shimeh, and as I see it, the Holy War is attacking with just short of 100k fighters. Let's call it 80k. Shimeh has a total of 2k regular troops. The rest of the defenders are townspeople conscripted into service. So it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to me. Granted, more Fanim show up during the battle with Fanayal, but it seems the Holy War has the advantage in battle-tested warriors.
As for Caraskand, someone mentioned in another thread that that battle was a mirror to a battle in the Crusades. And I don't think we get numbers for how many Fanim troops are there. Do we?
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As for Caraskand, someone mentioned in another thread that that battle was a mirror to a battle in the Crusades. And I don't think we get numbers for how many Fanim troops are there. Do we?
I don't think it's ever said, but I could have missed it.
That being said, I am most certainly not a well versed military historian, but I have read a bunch of things that does lend something of an air of credibility to the idea that conviction can win battles, in a way.
For most ancient battles, it is discipline that tends to carry the day, if no overwhelming tactical or strategic andvantage is had by one side. The ability to hold the line, not break or lose cohesion can't really be overstated. Battles were not usually decided by the grind of line on line, because it actually is rather hard to kill someone with a spear when both lines of troops are pressed against each other. It rather comes down to a battle of wills, who can hold longer in the center and who can hold or protect their flanks (which is actually the real key).
While just willing yourself not to lose really doesn't matter, keeping disciplined and holding your line goes a long way though. Rome conquered most of the known world of the time on the back of discipline, logistics and engineering. The average Roman solider was actually not a particularly good warrior though. That really isn't what is needed to win ancient battles though.
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While just willing yourself not to lose really doesn't matter, keeping disciplined and holding your line goes a long way though. Rome conquered most of the known world of the time on the back of discipline, logistics and engineering. The average Roman solider was actually not a particularly good warrior though. That really isn't what is needed to win ancient battles though.
Part of discipline is believing that you'll win. I think its harder to force a cohesive unit together that believes that failure is imminent. Its all part of the same thing as far as I can tell. Conviction, tactics, discipline, superior fighting strength (be it raw numbers or more talented troops, or both), they all play a crucial role. Without all of it working together, you're more likely to fail.
Granted, in the case of sranc, which have an infinite supply of bodies, if a host is stranded and engulfed on all sides, at some point that host will break. Fatigue should be very real for the men of the tusk. Without the ability to back peddle, relieve the front to rest out of harms reach, and prevent so many bodies form piling up that it forms a ramp over the front lines, they would be slaughtered. This is whats so important about discovering the ten-yoke army early - had they not, and been surrounded, all would have been lost.
Given a large enough host, they might have a small enough surface area to defend, they might have enough time and space to fully rest troops before they have to go back to the front. But even then, assuming the sranc never stop, at some point their swords/shields/armor would break or be lost faster than they could be repaired or replaced.
Regardless of most of that, schoolmen are the real key. If they could stay safe and sing forever, or sing in concerts for long enough for fully rested replacements to arrive, the battle would remain in a stalemate. Then the battle would last so long that you'd have to start worrying about food. It would be like a continuous siege. Something, at some point, would give.
Good thing there isn't an infinite number of sranc, and they do run away at some point. Shackled to the will of the No-God though... ill tidings.
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i wonder how long it would take for the Derived to develop anti-Consult tendencies? genetic drift and wotnot
They seem to do their best to keep it on lock, and the Skin Spies are very recent (and probably bred in tanks or something, since all of them seem to be male), but that doesn't apply to everything. The pheromones or whatever they use on the Sranc aren't universally instantly accepted. The Skin-Spy that was playing Somandutta had to actually physically assault a Sranc chief to get his clan under control, IIRC.
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i wonder how long it would take for the Derived to develop anti-Consult tendencies? genetic drift and wotnot
They seem to do their best to keep it on lock, and the Skin Spies are very recent (and probably bred in tanks or something, since all of them seem to be male), but that doesn't apply to everything. The pheromones or whatever they use on the Sranc aren't universally instantly accepted. The Skin-Spy that was playing Somandutta had to actually physically assault a Sranc chief to get his clan under control, IIRC.
You are correct. But was it pheromones that kept the sranc from immediately attacking or the fact that Soma spoke their language?
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Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is a delusion. But it's a delusion that makes real. A viramsata, was it, that the Nilnameshi called it? The Horde is by necessity too big of an entity to ever come to a conclusion about winning or losing, so it's impenetrable to this tactic. They're not an army or a civilization. They're just a swarm. Ignorance is strength etc etc
TEASING
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Cnaur's secret is not a delusion. In ancient battles with hand to hand combat only about 5% of soldiers were killed in battle, whoever broke first lost and then could expect significant causalities from calvary mopping up. Obviously this doesn't apply to modern armies with Apache helicopters and shit. But for hand to hand sword and spear conflicts it absolutely does.
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Bakker's battle is an argument metaphor with Kellhus and Cnaiur at Anwurat is great.
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As for Caraskand, someone mentioned in another thread that that battle was a mirror to a battle in the Crusades. And I don't think we get numbers for how many Fanim troops are there. Do we?
Kascamandri breaks down the composition and numbers of his troops when we first see him right before he reaches Caraskand, I do believe. Haven't the book handy but I do believe the numbers were, if not even, in Kian's favour.
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The sentiment is that kian has overwhelming numbers.
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i wonder how long it would take for the Derived to develop anti-Consult tendencies? genetic drift and wotnot
They seem to do their best to keep it on lock, and the Skin Spies are very recent (and probably bred in tanks or something, since all of them seem to be male), but that doesn't apply to everything. The pheromones or whatever they use on the Sranc aren't universally instantly accepted. The Skin-Spy that was playing Somandutta had to actually physically assault a Sranc chief to get his clan under control, IIRC.
You are correct. But was it pheromones that kept the sranc from immediately attacking or the fact that Soma spoke their language?
I think at the least pheromones were what kept them from just jumping him immediately, his words prolonged it, and finally him killing their chief cemented the deal.
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The Battle at Caraskand is based on the Siege of Antioch in the First Crusade. The starving Crusaders emerged from the city to fight an overwhelmingly large and well provisioned Muslim army, but they had "discovered" the holy lance that pierced the side of Christ inside Antioch and were convinced that God was with them. As has been mentioned by Darzin, morale is utterly crucial in battles where you fight in hand to hand conflict. That's why a good Spartan came back with his shield or on it (because a shield is the first piece of gear a hoplite chucks when running away) and the warrior codes of so many western cultures focus on courage as the epitomy of virtue. Most of the killing is done when an army breaks and its order collapses, with cavalry doing a lot of the killing.
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All posters that are older than music are inherently right about everything.