Sorcery

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What Came Before

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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2013, 10:02:35 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
+1 Duskweaver. But... I'd still hazard that there's a purposeful reason for that scene.

It has to have meaning, doesn't it? Or another red haring.

What Came Before

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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2013, 10:02:42 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Either or. I want the intention. Aurang, a boy child, a Salted Sorcerer (which as Duskweaver and I highlighted is a fortune in any comparable time period) - hell, I'm almost out to make my riches in Earwa hunting Schoolmen. Bam! Fan fic idea... though that character gets to die real fast. Lmao.

Anyhow, the scene reeks of something other than Aurang simply being a perverted bird fuck, neh?

What Came Before

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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2013, 10:02:52 pm »
Quote from: Ciogli
Madness do you have the old thread of White Lord asking questions? I remember I had that particular thread on favorites so I could read the answers Bakker gave.

What Came Before

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« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2013, 10:03:00 pm »
Quote from: Madness
A few questions...[/u]

Lol, I already had this posted in the Introduction thread where aengelas first posted the announcement as the one thread everyone exploring the old forums should read.

Cheers.

Borque

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« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2013, 10:11:35 am »
Might be that the Mark doesn't reflect the power of the sorcerer as much as how long and much he has been practicing sorcery.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2013, 10:30:30 am »
I gave up on the Westeros mega-threads a while ago because of that, Francis.  Some subjects keep getting repeated, others disappear into some kind of thread archive hell and it all happens quite quickly; I don't have time to read them every day anymore.

You have inspired me to ramble about sorcery though, please excuse the lengthy post.

You are right, souls are clearly tied into all forms of sorcery.  Your example is a food one for the psuhke, evidence for the connection with the gnosis exists clearly in the case of the skin-spy-with-a-soul.

Titirga provides a strong hint that any of the few could master the psukhe and/or the gnosis.

If we start with the few as undifferentiated potential sorcerers, their uniting feature is the ability to perceive the onta.

The way that is described indicates it is akin to being able to see into a further visual spectrum.  In this case, the metaphysical ontology of objective reality (how things exist rather than how they impose on you subjectively).

TJE takes it a step further and reveals layers of experience, an 'expertiential' perspective that radiates from all souls - an impression of the entirety of their existence rather than their current state.

I feel that perhaps the cishaurim are somewhere in-between these two layers of perception.  By removing the subjective layer completely they focus on how things 'are' rather than how they appear.  e.g. Meppa sees the ontological reality of Psatma; Moenghus shines in the third sight because he exists so completely in the now that he appears much more than his physical appearance (if that makes sense)/

In regards to the Mark, I have a hypothesis for that too.  (Of course,  ::) )

Starting from the fact that sorcery is the means of changing Earwa's physical reality, we note that the gnosis and anagogic magic both leave the Mark.  This is a stain on the metaphysical ontology, the ontological state of being of objects changed is fundamentally changed as a side effect of the changes they affect in the mundane.

At the other extreme are the changes in the mundane that the gods work; Psatma, the white-luck etc.  These leave no mark.  Witness Sorweel's 'mask' that decieves the gnostic Serwe, Eskeles (and possibly Khellus).  Likewise Malowebi sees Psatma as she appears... but Meppa is not decieved.

So not only are the Cish able to detect the sorcery (refer Akka walking the shadow way) they can also see the truth of whatever sorcery the gods wield.

Now if consider what we know of how the various sorcerous disciplines work.

Gnostic:  Uses mathematical abstractions (primarily geometry in the example of war cants) underpinned by two interpretations of how things must change - in the mundane ontology via the sorcerer's native tongue and from the 'objective' perspective of the Onta rendered in a dead tongue.  Leaves lasting changes on the Onta and the mundane. 

Aporetic:  seems to be an extension of the gnosis based on obscure logical abstractions.  It preserves and undoes the changes to the Onta.  In the case of souls that have 'caused' said changes to metaphysical reality their existence is negated.  There are clear examples of sorcerers who are deeply marked being more vulnerable to greater effect; notr that chorae kill rather than salt Cish.

Anagogic:  Uses linguistic anologies in much the same way as the gnosis but lacks the precision and power, which seems logical.

Psukhe:  Changes mundane states of being without apparently affecting the Onta.  The cish appear to use a version of analogies like Anagogic mages.   The BIG difference is very likely that they use only one inutteral.  They describe the metaphysical changes they want to affect without needing their subjective view of the mundane, thus it is transmuted into physical reality 'perfectly'.  There is almost no dissonance and therefore no discernable mark.  However, as noted under Aporetic - chorae still kill them, I guess logic always wins.

Bringing this rambling post back on topic - I said earlier that I suspect the Logos is a very subtle version of sorcery.  It's functional dependencies seem to reflect the characteristics of the Judging Eye, minus the judgement.  A deep understanding into who people really are.
E.g. Mimara's understanding of Galian's past is very similar to the insights into TDCTB that Khellus uses to fuel his manipulations.  The only difference is how they use their perceptions.

The common types of sorcery all focus on mastering the mundane world through the metaphysical.  The dunyain are working from the other direction.

I have not yet broached the Tekne, here we have another approach to mastering the metaphysical. 
Where the dunyain have divorced all morality and emotion from their approach in order to master that which is (similar to the way the Cish blind themselves, I feel); the consult seek to replace and replicate their own immoral perspective.

In summation, the conduit between the mundane and the Onta are ensouled beings.  There is no doubt that Kellhus has the tools and the potential  to take apart and use any of the compatible techniques applied in any of the forms of sorcery.  It's not just a question of using a third inutteral to unit two different physical places with one metaphysical reality, we should also consider his potential to wield magic with one inutteral to new effect, combining the Logos with the Tekne etc etc.

ps. sorry if this post is rambling or nonsensical in parts - 4 hours sleep, 10 hours working in a fridge and the Lord's Lettuce have had their way with me.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2013, 10:33:09 am »
Might be that the Mark doesn't reflect the power of the sorcerer as much as how long and much he has been practicing sorcery.

Not the difference in chorae effects on Akka between TDTCB and TJE.  In both books a chorae is held in his face, in TDCTB it just freaks him out but in TJE he starts to salt. 
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

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« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2013, 12:31:30 pm »
Might be that the Mark doesn't reflect the power of the sorcerer as much as how long and much he has been practicing sorcery.

I always understood that the onta grows in relation to how much you "modify" reality using sorcery. In the case of Quya it would make sense since the older they are the more they used sorcery ( and we know they're both powerful and well practiced thanks to all the wars they fought )
When Akka begins teaching Kellhus the Gnosis he is worried that the first thing Kellhus will gain will be the weakness to Chorae since even the smallest cants damn the user. This would suggest a direct and confirmed relation between USE of sorcery and damnation/mark.
We can't know for sure if time enlarges the onta, because the guys with the strongest marks we've seen so far had both power and time.

We must take a look at the relationship between "use of sorcery" and "power" though...

Let's give for granted ( for speculation's sake ) that use of sorcery enlarges the mark.

This would mean that using a Surillic Point gives you let's say..."10 Mark points"
What happens when you use a Bar of Heaven? You'd get maybe "100 Mark points" right?
 
Unless! The Gods don't care if you use small or fancy moves, you still get damnation points!
So you can use ten Surillic Points or spam some crazy Meta-Gnostic illumination cants, you still get 1 damnation point every time whatever you do.
This way the Mark would be useless to gauge the sorcerer's power.
But then again Akka wouldn't be so scared of Nil'Giccas' mark. The way he talks about it is like he knows he's extremely powerful since his mark is so deep.
He knows for sure that he's experienced, but how does he know if he's powerful?
He could think "yeah Cleric has a nice 20.000 points mark but maybe he's been using Surillic Points and cooking Cants for the last 2000 years!"
It looks more like Akka's thinking "To get that kind of mark he must have used some nice moves over who knows how many years, he knows his sorcery, I must be careful"
At least that's how I read it XD


Not the difference in chorae effects on Akka between TDTCB and TJE.  In both books a chorae is held in his face, in TDCTB it just freaks him out but in TJE he starts to salt. 

I remember that in TTT when Cnaiur wakes up Akka with the Chorae he does feel the tingles of salting.
But it's not enough to prove that "time= deeper mark" I fear.

If time by itself affected the mark it would mean that
Akka's salting at the end of TTT ---->20 years later he salts more in TJE and WLW. But we can't really judge it. Maybe Kosoter holds the Chorae closer than Cnaiur did? ( non talking about the sranc punch incidend because everybody would salt from that) Or maybe Bakker simply wanted to emphasize the salting in the Kosoter scene...

If on the other hand "use/power mean bigger mark= aggravated salting" Akka is still useless as an example. I dont' think in those 20 years he spent alone he had much chance to spam warcants or become more powerful.

I stand behind the "Use of high level cants = greater deepening of the mark" + the time thing of course. I mean, both the level of cants and the usage influence the mark, with the attention focused on the power of sorceries. The more deeply you modify the world, deeper the mark gets.

If power didn't affect the mark then what would happen if Kellhus met some hostile Quya?
Surely the Nonman would have used sorcery for longer and would have a deeper mark.
Would he go "Oh yeah this guy has a nice mark but mine is deep-" Before getting unavoidibly  wrecked by the Meta-Gnosis?


 

Borque

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« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2013, 12:52:50 pm »
It looks more like Akka's thinking "To get that kind of mark he must have used some nice moves over who knows how many years, he knows his sorcery, I must be careful"
At least that's how I read it XD
That's how I read it too. When he first met Cleric, it isn't completely obvious to him from the start that it's a Nonman, though, so the Mark can't be that different to a human sorcerer's.

Having thought about it, I think it's very much like you say. I see the Mark as a kind of reflection of the sum of all modifications the sorcerer has made to the Onta. Every time you alter the Onta, it alters you. If you alter it profoundly or many times, you get more Mark.

Kellhus, as usual, is more about subtlety. I see the second inutteral as giving him more precision in getting exactly what he wants from the Onta, not necessarily only raw power. If this is so, his Mark could very well be less pronounced than other sorcerers'.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 12:56:28 pm by Borque »

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« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2013, 01:12:22 pm »
Kelps, as usual, is more about subtlety. I see the second inutteral as giving him more precision in getting exactly what he wants from the Onta, not necessarily only raw power. If this is so, his Mark could very well be less pronounced than other sorcerers'.

Ah! You're right!
It could work like this:

Cant:                             Effect:                                                 Mark points received

Utteral                           Fire                                                       20
1st inutteral                   Fire on that rock                                     20
2nd inutteral                  Fire specifically just around the rock        -10       

With a total of 10 instead of the 20 he would get using regular Gnosis.

Or the other way around when he needs power:


Cant:                             Effect:                                                                   Mark points

Utteral                           Gnosis devastating abstraction                                 100
1st inutteral                   on those unlucky sranc                                            100         
2nd inutteral                  Moar power! Meta-Gnosis cataclysimc abstraction!     +300           

With a total of 500 because of the bigger "power usage"

Sorry about the schematic thingy but I felt it conveyed the idea faster than 100 words XD



Madness

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« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2013, 03:39:17 pm »
Sorry everyone but I was compelled to move these. There are basically no comments in relation to Kellhus' limits in the posts. Cheers.
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« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2013, 04:13:03 pm »
Verse 18:9 "As death is the sum of all harms, so is murder the sum of all sins." (PON Wiki)

I still believe it is what you do with your magic that determines the depth of your mark, not necessarily how you cast your magic.

If you set fire to a rock you probably aren't earning very many "bruise points".

If you set fire to 2,000 heathens, you might be earning yourself some serious bonus "bruise points".

Having said that I can see how setting fire to 2,000 heathens without setting fire to any rocks or earth nearby vs scorching everything in the vicinity would warrant less of a change to your mark.

As always, I have a side question:  Can murdering a sorcerer (who are supposed to be damned) earn you less of a bruise or end up being some sort of a wash?

Borque

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« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2013, 05:35:33 pm »
I think damnation points and Mark points are separate. Sorcery isn't the only way to be damned.

ETA: I believe that if you burn 7 tons of stone to cinders using the Fifth Quyan Whatnot, that could result in more Mark but fewer Damnation points than if you burn 3 tons of innocent people with the same Cant.

ETA2: Since the second option also involves murder of around 30-50 people, and I'm assuming murder gives Damnation point without affecting the Mark.

ETA3: If Mark and Damnation weren't counted separately, everyone of the Few would in effect have the Judging Eye.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 06:23:22 pm by Borque »

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« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2013, 06:22:29 pm »
I think damnation points and Mark points are separate. Sorcery isn't the only way to be damned.

ETA: I believe that if you burn 7 tons of stone to cinders using the Fifth Quyan Whatnot, that could result in more Mark but fewer Damnation points than if you burn 3 tons of innocent people with the same Cant.

Interesting.  I have always thought that damnation and the mark went hand in hand.  At least as far as sorcerers are concerned.

Borque

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« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2013, 06:26:26 pm »
Interesting.  I have always thought that damnation and the mark went hand in hand.  At least as far as sorcerers are concerned.
I edited my post a little while you wrote your response...

Well they would be correlated, since sorcery is a damnable offense. But sorcery plus murder seems to me more damnable than only sorcery, while murder in itself also gives damnation points.