The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Walter on July 18, 2017, 01:47:41 pm
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So...let's guess at the final fate of our Lord and Prophet.
Do you think he is hanging from the statues hip in the other head? Dead and being tortured on the outside? Dead and become a Ciphrang? Dead and become Ajokli? Alive and it was a body double that got salted? Actually inside of the No-God?
Let's hear it!
For myself, I think he is, himself, the Head On A Pole. His spirit is tortured in the Outside, but his head is on the statue's belt, and he is not dead, so the Hundred cannot truly torture him. I think those scenes were flash forwards to this time.
[EDIT Madness: Rearranged Subject.]
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I believe the Ciphrang hypothesis for now (might change after rereads) mainly because of the "I descend as hunger" line.
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So...let's guess at the final fate of our Lord and Prophet.
Do you think he is hanging from the statues hip in the other head? Dead and being tortured on the outside? Dead and become a Ciphrang? Dead and become Ajokli? Alive and it was a body double that got salted? Actually inside of the No-God?
Let's hear it!
For myself, I think he is, himself, the Head On A Pole. His spirit is tortured in the Outside, but his head is on the statue's belt, and he is not dead, so the Hundred cannot truly torture him. I think those scenes were flash forwards to this time.
Well, at the end, it seems like Ajokli is looking for Kellhus' soul and certainly seems to be feeling cheated.
So, yeah, I do think that Kellhus' soul is somewhere. Now, perhaps it is in his own head, because when "Kellhus'" head erupts into a gout of flame, I have my doubts that was his own. There is little doubt in my mind that the head-on-a-pole is/was Kellhus own. Indeed, this could be another way in which Kellhus avoids the fate of those who would usually visit the Outside. He actually was a Ciphrang already, so not "vulnerable" to them in the way other mortals would be.
Interesting to think about that part in light of TUC, as the line, "The living shall not haunt the dead" could simply be foreshadowing that Kellhus, 'haunting the dead' in that scene, will, at some point, not be living. Which we now know why.
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He's saved. We're on our own now.
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He's saved. We're on our own now.
I'd disagree there. While I think he managed to save himself from damnation, I don't think that is the same as being saved.
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What is "saved" if not saved from damnation?
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What is "saved" if not saved from damnation?
A fair point. Going back to what Bakker said about there being Redemption, Damnation and Oblivion, I just wanted to be clear that I don't think he is Redeemed at all, simply having just staved off Damnation somehow. Not really all that different than, say, what Shaeönanra did in the matter-of-fact, rather than in actual practice.
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So...let's guess at the final fate of our Lord and Prophet.
Do you think he is hanging from the statues hip in the other head?
I need to read the canon artifact to be sure but this is my bet.
For myself, I think he is, himself, the Head On A Pole. His spirit is tortured in the Outside, but his head is on the statue's belt, and he is not dead, so the Hundred cannot truly torture him. I think those scenes were flash forwards to this time.
I do like this and it's seeded within TGO's Nau-Cayuti Dream and Achamian's explanation of Shauriatas to Mimara afterwords.
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What salted then when the chorae touched Kellhus? If you touch a dead mage with a chorae does it still salt?
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His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.
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I think that Kellhus is gone for good. I am interested in seeing what will exactly happen in the Outside to him however, I don't think he will do anything important to the World.
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His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.
The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.
I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body. But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark? So would it salt?
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I think he's in the Outside somewhere which means was always in the outside for the entire series since time doesn't exist there as a strictly linear concept.
I still believe he's on the path of TTT which is to become an Unmoved soul. If he becomes Ciphrang or a God to reach back to his past and condition it for his mortal self, then that's a paradox that fulfills the criteria of an unmoved soul.
He's either Ajokli, Onkis and/or the head on a pole.
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His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.
The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.
I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body. But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark? So would it salt?
That's what i'm getting at. Seeing if any clues to what happened by looking at what salted.
Ajokli had control of Kellhus during the last whelming? Kelemonas notices Kellhus levitates using no sorcery. So gods seem to be markless, but at the same point everyone notices his mark, Akka notices is just after that.
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Kellhus is now a baby, you noobs.
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Akka's son?
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ye
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Jurble is referring to the scene when Mimara and Akka first make it to the Ordeal. She finds a tapestry in the Umbilicus that shows a scene of her when she sees herself with the JE in The Mop. She had seen this tapestry before in Momemn. So, you could therefore conclude that Kellhus knew of her pregnancy and her holiness and this is why she and Akka were led to the Ark. Pretty nifty. I just don't know what good baby Kellhus does, unless Qirri makes him grow super fast or something. It does line up timeline wise also, that his soul could be in the babies. I don't have ability to quote from books, but I will later.
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Ah what the hell...............he's the Ciphrang Head sent to Zeum.
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I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the whole "Baby Kellhus" theory. While it is definitely intriguing (and would explore the possibility of reincarnation in this universe), it still feels to much like a continuation of the whole "infallible and invincible Kellhus" idea. (and I had been fooled by that idea myself, but going back and rereading the early parts of TDTCB opened my eyes, he was never infallible at all)
Also...poor Akka, just imagine if this was true, after everything that happened between him and Kellhus, he finds out Kellhus took over his son. He just can't win! :P
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Also...poor Akka, just imagine if this was true, after everything that happened between him and Kellhus, he finds out Kellhus took over his son. He just can't win! :P
Well, it's as Cnaiür puts it: when you are fighting against Kellhus, you must always assume you will lose, and plan accordingly.
Anyway, in a general sense, I can't believe Kellhus is done for. Kellhus is what made the series; the character that turned everything upside down by pre-emptively unifying the world to finish of the big bad ancient evil before it could be mustered. Without him, it's just a darker re-telling of almost every fantasy epic ever made.
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Kellhus is now a baby, you noobs.
Welcome back to SA, jurble. I don't think I've seen you posting here since the old red v1 forumer!
Though, please, don't leave it up to MSJ or anyone else to make sense of your posts for the rest of us ;).
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Didn't Sarl and the Captain tell us? Sometimes old souls awaken behind the eyes of babes. Sometimes men are too hard for Hell, some souls Bounce!
Though, I still think Kellhus is the Head On A Pole. They are going to have to reenact the quest for the Heron Spear, only this time they will be looking for their Lord and Prophet's Head.
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Kellhus is now a baby, you noobs.
Welcome back to SA, jurble. I don't think I've seen you posting here since the old red v1 forumer!
Though, please, don't leave it up to MSJ or anyone else to make sense of your posts for the rest of us ;).
I'm just too attached to the hilarious concept of Kellhus being a baby now to elaborate. The fact that it isn't entirely absurd amuses me to no end.
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Lol.
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I have to throw my hat in the 'Kellhus is not dead' camp with the explanation that he wasn't "wearing" his head at the time he was salted. Also with the outside chance that this was somewhat close to Kellhus's intended outcome.
While I don't have strong direct evidence, I feel a Cui Bono argument somewhat supports this. With Ajokli possessing Cnaiur we get insight that Ajokli doesn't know where Kellhus is. And Ajokli is pissed. Very pissed. Enough so that it appears Ajokli is now waging war against the No-God. With that in mind, who benefits from this outcome? Especially if you think that the No-God rising again is inevitable.
That line of thinking had me consider that the Kellhus "illusion" obfuscating the No-God initially could have been Kellhus's doing all along. This would be to trick Ajokli into thinking he is the No-God so that Ajokli would wage war against it. Although this conflicts with what I feel is a more supported argument that the illusion was from the Dunsult (foreshadowed by the Shauriatas 'hologram') but I guess that could be a red herring. And I also can't remember anything suggesting Kellhus would have the ability to create such an illusion which would be another strike against it (unless it's similar enough to how a sorcerer can alter dreams, except this requires it for EVERYONE watching). It also starts to get a little too far into the "Kellhus is in complete control" field for my tastes. I do think the guy is fallible, but maybe this isn't an example of his failure? Surely he's done extensive planning for this moment, no? Although I'm not sure how he could easily plot against Ajokli while also being somewhat possessed by him...so that is another potential problem with this hypothesis. Maybe when his own head is disconnected from his own body he can plot without Ajokli being aware?
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I'm still on board that Kellhus is in The Outside, was it planned? I think so. How else do we get Kellhus talking to Kellhus dreams, if he is not? Those dreams came from the Outside and a place created for Kelly is and his hungers. Which I find extremely interesting because his version of the Outside looked most serene. Now, that being said, I don't think he meant it to go down like it did. Rereading the Golden Room and when he sees Kel he is suprised, naot fake I'm a lying liar who lies surprised. It wasn't his he wanted it to go down. But, I agree, Ajokli coming back to look for Kellhus because he can't find him in Hell, suggests to me, that Kellhus had contingencies.
ToT (Thoughts of Thelli, from now on), "summon Madness" there is a great thread around here someplace on Kellhus's infalibility, by Locke, a very good thread and goes into great detail going back to TDTCB. So, yes, we know he makes mistakes and wrong assumptions. But, I agree with whoever said it (sorry) that Kellhus has planned for twenty years and in my mind, might just be smart enough to trick Ajokli into waging war on the No-God.
H, I think you've been right, and I am quite enamored even more so now. Because if what we see in the dreams is Kellhus's little nook in the Outside, he seems to be benevolent and possibly holy.
Again, Baby Kellhus is very, very intriguing. Especially from a tin-foil hatter as myself. I just don't see the point. I think Mimara's baby would be Holy no matter if Kellhus inhabits it soul or not.
Here's my thinking and a lot has went into this the last couple of days. Kellhus is on the Outside, but not the way he wanted to go down...maybe. Anyway, he is warring with the Gods to stop damnation and Mimara's baby will be very important in the New Empire and a new Inri Sejenus, so to say. The son of the Holiest woman on Earwa and being fed Qirri of the Last Nonman King, may lead to a great soul, a would greater than Kellhus indeed. That can lead Earwa to salvation, with the help of Kellhus on the Outside.
Again, I don't think it went down as Kellhus planned, his infallibility has been shown time and again, but has always had contingencies and such to stay on the Path.
ETA: I love the F'N traffic around here. My favorite place in the whole wide world, on the internet. :)
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If Kellhus is Ajokli then Esmenet is Yatwer and Cnaiur is Gilgaol. :3
1) Kellhus spoke about himself being not a person but a place. Like, a place of multiple ascension? He is an outside-port (as in space-port), capable of launching people to godhood. Dunno about Esmenet, but Cnaiur seems like a ciphrang who will devour even other ciphrangs.
2) Ajokli is hunted by the other gods. And if he is Kellhus and they are his mortal companions and/or enemies, it gives a reason for such war in the Outside. They've all leveled up tremendously -- and circumstance "everyone wants that smartass Kellhus dead" leveled up with them.
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If Kellhus is Ajokli then Esmenet is Yatwer and Cnaiur is Gilgaol. :3
1) Kellhus spoke about himself being not a person but a place. Like, a place of multiple ascension? He is an outside-port (as in space-port), capable of launching people to godhood. Dunno about Esmenet, but Cnaiur seems like a ciphrang who will devour even other ciphrangs.
2) Ajokli is hunted by the other gods. And if he is Kellhus and they are his mortal companions and/or enemies, it gives a reason for such war in the Outside. They've all leveled up tremendously -- and circumstance "everyone wants that smartass Kellhus dead" leveled up with them.
Kellhus refers to himself as a place more than once, throughout the entire series; especially when he enters the probability trance or just super Dunyain mode. It's how Dunyain view themselves, I think; more a place to be filled with the world, in their observations, than actual persons.
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ToT (Thoughts of Thelli, from now on), "summon Madness" there is a great thread around here someplace on Kellhus's infalibility, by Locke, a very good thread and goes into great detail going back to TDTCB. So, yes, we know he makes mistakes and wrong assumptions. But, I agree with whoever said it (sorry) that Kellhus has planned for twenty years and in my mind, might just be smart enough to trick Ajokli into waging war on the No-God.
I will go and try to find it, thank you for the recommendation. :)
He definitely could be, I'm just leaning towards the "not infallible" idea for now. I really need to reread TAE, TUC included, I feel like there are quite a few details I'm missing (but unlike most of you, I've only read the whole series once, so that was to be expected).
Again, Baby Kellhus is very, very intriguing. Especially from a tin-foil hatter as myself. I just don't see the point. I think Mimara's baby would be Holy no matter if Kellhus inhabits it soul or not.
That's how I feel about it too, if reincarnation is possible and Kellhus figured it out, then yes, I see how he could plan to have Achamian and Mimara meet with the Great Ordeal, etc. and the baby would be a failsafe in case his original plan went wrong. But yes, I don't think Baby Kellhus will be an actual thing, even if it is a very amusing theory. ;)
Here's my thinking and a lot has went into this the last couple of days. Kellhus is on the Outside, but not the way he wanted to go down...maybe. Anyway, he is warring with the Gods to stop damnation and Mimara's baby will be very important in the New Empire and a new Inri Sejenus, so to say. The son of the Holiest woman on Earwa and being fed Qirri of the Last Nonman King, may lead to a great soul, a would greater than Kellhus indeed. That can lead Earwa to salvation, with the help of Kellhus on the Outside.
Again, I don't think it went down as Kellhus planned, his infallibility has been shown time and again, but has always had contingencies and such to stay on the Path.
Just curious, if you believe Kellhus is in the Outside, then why can't Ajokli-as-Cnaiür (or is that Gilgaöl-as-Cnaiür?) find him? Is his soul somehow invisible to the Gods?
So your idea is that the baby will be a true prophet, in contrast to Kellhus as a false one? He will definitely be special, as the son of one of the only holy people around (that we know of), nourished on qirri for most of the time he was in the womb, the child of two of the Few, the list goes on. It would be interesting to see the real thing in the story, that's for sure.
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ToT, I think the dreams with the Tree and Kellhus and all of that is him in the Outside. Does that look the enternal, infernal hell? No, its serene. I agree, now, that the hunger descending in the IF was Ajokli's. I think through Kellhus's mastery of the Daimos he has created a hiding place in the Outside, while waging war on the Gods. This place being the tree we see in the dreams.
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ToT, I think the dreams with the Tree and Kellhus and all of that is him in the Outside. Does that look the enternal, infernal hell? No, its serene. I agree, now, that the hunger descending in the IF was Ajokli's. I think through Kellhus's mastery of the Daimos he has created a hiding place in the Outside, while waging war on the Gods. This place being the tree we see in the dreams.
Sorry if you said that in your earlier post and I didn't get it, it happens. ;)
He would have sort of an oasis of his own in the afterlife, then. Well, if someone could figure out how to do that, it would be Kellhus. Not being infallible but having quite a few backup plans sounds plausible enough.
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ToT (Thoughts of Thelli, from now on), "summon Madness" there is a great thread around here someplace on Kellhus's infalibility, by Locke, a very good thread and goes into great detail going back to TDTCB.
I'm not sure which you mean: Dunyain Weakness (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1080.0), Kellhus: His luck, misfortune, and stupidity (TDTCB) (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1164.0), or the many, many posts on the subject by Locke in the TDTCB, Ch. X posts in The PON Almanac (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?board=19.0).
2) Ajokli is hunted by the other gods. And if he is Kellhus and they are his mortal companions and/or enemies, it gives a reason for such war in the Outside. They've all leveled up tremendously -- and circumstance "everyone wants that smartass Kellhus dead" leveled up with them.
For my money, this is the Layer of Revelation concerning the Ajokli and TAE's Momemn narrative arc. The Gods have never been hunting Kellhus, they've been trying to stop Ajokli's play through Kellhus.
So your idea is that the baby will be a true prophet, in contrast to Kellhus as a false one? He will definitely be special, as the son of one of the only holy people around (that we know of), nourished on qirri for most of the time he was in the womb, the child of two of the Few, the list goes on. It would be interesting to see the real thing in the story, that's for sure.
Lol, getting off topic by why do people seem to have such a hard time accepting that it's pretty damn clear Mimara is going to be Earwa's "true Prophet" or whatchamacallit...
The baby is a baby. Anomalous for not being stillborn but that could simply be a result of previous Judging Eye holders never having had twins.
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I'm not sure which you mean: Dunyain Weakness (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1080.0), Kellhus: His luck, misfortune, and stupidity (TDTCB) (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1164.0), or the many, many posts on the subject by Locke in the TDTCB, Ch. X posts in The PON Almanac (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?board=19.0).
Thank you for the heads up. :)
Lol, getting off topic by why do people seem to have such a hard time accepting that it's pretty damn clear Mimara is going to be Earwa's "true Prophet" or whatchamacallit...
The baby is a baby. Anomalous for not being stillborn but that could simply be a result of previous Judging Eye holders never having had twins.
I'm not having a hard time accepting anything, I don't even know what to think about some things yet before I reread and try to sort everything out in my head. ;)
I have no issues with Mimara as the prophet, though I think the baby might still have some importance in the next series, even if it's just as a secondary character. (I think I might have been internalizing Eärwa's inherent "men's souls are superior to women" thing and just figuring the baby was being set up for later, shame on me. :-[ )
I still wish we knew more about the Judging Eye actually works concerning the stillbirths (from someone other than Achamian)...but I know that's an explanation we're likely not going to get.
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Sorry if you said that in your earlier post and I didn't get it, it happens. ;)
He would have sort of an oasis of his own in the afterlife, then. Well, if someone could figure out how to do that, it would be Kellhus. Not being infallible but having quite a few backup plans sounds plausible enough.
I think I mentioned it in a different thread. Sorry, I use most recent posts when looking at the forum, so I jump from one to the other. Expecting everyone to know my thoughts....my problem.
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I think the baby, regardless if its Kellhus incarnate will be extremely important to Earwa. When Mimara looks at her belly with the eye during birth she is blinded. That, combined with the ashes of Nil'Gilccass flowing through his veins, I think will make for "being" greater and holier than anyone to step foot on Earwa. Literally the last soul to be born before the No-God walks...yea, so wether its baby Kellhus doesn't really matter. The baby is hugely important to events to come. I truly expect a time jump. Everyone says everyone will be dead. Esme won't be old old. Akka, has been eating Qirri and I fully expect him to continue, that should add years to his life.
Also, thinking on the 144,000. Its not just Earwa, but the planet that needs reduced to that number. Eanna is full of people, there is a continent to the south, Zuem is largely untouched. I see absolutely zero problems with a time jump and truly, would prefer one.
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The Baby is Kellhus and a true Prophet -as Kellhus has always been. From the first moment he felt inexplicable rage at Serwe being raped by Cnaiur, he was a prophet. That rage he felt was the God's. He realized his own prophethood in TTT, but eventually decided he was mad and "The God does not care." Yet, the mere fact of Mimara possessing the Judging Eye demonstrates that The God does care... or at least take an interest.
The God, by the way, is Bakker himself and always has been. Thus we can reconcile the immanent tradition of the Inrithi with the transcendental of the Fanim. The Gods (and all of Creation) are part of God (God is Immanent) because they are composed of Bakker's own thoughts, his thoughts being a material portion of himself. The God is yet transcendental because Bakker exists apart as entity from his Creation despite it being composed of him.
Moreover, Mimara is an anagram for Mariam, the Aramaic and Arabic name for Mary. I asked Scott about this on his blog a year ago, and he replied he wasn't sure if it was intentional - but he did not deny the Marian parallels between Mimara and Mary.
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The Baby is Kellhus and a true Prophet -as Kellhus has always been. From the first moment he felt inexplicable rage at Serwe being raped by Cnaiur, he was a prophet. That rage he felt was the God's. He realized his own prophethood in TTT, but eventually decided he was mad and "The God does not care." Yet, the mere fact of Mimara possessing the Judging Eye demonstrates that The God does care... or at least take an interest.
Its nice that this is your view and really I am intrigued. But, it by no means is concrete fact that Mimara's baby is Kellhus. Ill concede the tapestry and timeline roughly fit. But, nothing in the text makes it cannon. So slow down there Jurble. At this point, and for a long while I suspect, its pure theorizing. And that's fine, we so a lot of that around here.
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Why such hostility? I'm laying out a theory. Should I modify my sentences with "maybe, perhaps" or other such nonsense adverbs instead of stating my arguments with simple linking verbs? You know that's what they explicitly teach not to do in university when making arguments.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to be hostile, wasn't my intent. And, I'm no uni guy, just a regular dude with 2 year in general studies, plus classes for my job. Anyhow, I was just saying that while I like your theory, and you have some textual evidence to back it up, its not certain. Its not cannon. Its the same as me saying Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa. That's all. I feel your conviction. I feel Kellhus is holy too and have said as much the last 2 years. There are just so many ways this can go to say this, this is what happened. When in reality, we have no proof of it.
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Jurble, what I find ironic is the example I use is Moe. Lol. What happened to Moe? He was salted, dead, dead as dead. Yet, we plumbed the text for any evidence real or contrived to find that Moe was still "alive". Well, well, well, his son, Anasurimbor Kellhus was salted also and here we are plumbing the texts to see where our Holy Prophet is. So, to say with conviction that Mimara's son IS in fact Kellhus I find it laughable at first. Then intrigued. Then, I ask, "Is this Moe all over again?".
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Using the university card, a classic.
On topic: So if the Gods were hunting Ajokli to prevent him from bringing aeons of suffering on Eärwa, then I guess it really was true that the Gods were blind to the No-God. So maybe the Judging Eye is a sort of emissary sent by the Gods to reveal Ajokli?
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Using the university card, a classic.
Yea, really, lol. I never attended and am widely regarded as the Master of Theories around these parts! ;)
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Jurble, what I find ironic is the example I use is Moe. Lol. What happened to Moe? He was salted, dead, dead as dead. Yet, we plumbed the text for any evidence real or contrived to find that Moe was still "alive". Well, well, well, his son, Anasurimbor Kellhus was salted also and here we are plumbing the texts to see where our Holy Prophet is. So, to say with conviction that Mimara's son IS in fact Kellhus I find it laughable at first. Then intrigued. Then, I ask, "Is this Moe all over again?".
I was always on the Moe-is-dead camp. There were no textual bases for his survival. Kellhus, however, has some a fair degree of textual evidence that indicates he had contingencies planned for his death (he told Proyas he knew he was likely to fail, he instigated the journey of Akka and Mimara for some unknown purpose). Moreover his behavior aside from that indicates something was up. He retrieves Esme and Kelmomas after Dagliash - the moment he confirmed the Dunyain ruled the Consult - he goads Esmenet into releasing Kelmomas. Even Malowebi's head's likely purpose was to act as his third eye - to see Kelmomas.
Using the university card, a classic.
On topic: So if the Gods were hunting Ajokli to prevent him from bringing aeons of suffering on Eärwa, then I guess it really was true that the Gods were blind to the No-God. So maybe the Judging Eye is a sort of emissary sent by the Gods to reveal Ajokli?
The Judging Eye is from The God not the Gods. The Judging Eye can see the No-God, the Gods cannot. God can see the No-God because the God is by definition all-seeing. Moreover, the nature of Divine Will in its true sense, rather than that of the creatures called the Gods, is that everything occurs precisely according to divine will. The Judging Eye, being from God, isn't meant to reveal Ajokli - precisely because it doesn't reveal Ajokli. God's purpose is indistinguishable from what happens in the world. So, instead, the purpose of the Judging Eye is what we have seen it do. From the moment Mimara woke it, and saw everything she has seen with it, that has been its purpose, and everything she saw with it, she was Intended to see with it.
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I was always on the Moe-is-dead camp. There were no textual bases for his survival. Kellhus, however, has some a fair degree of textual evidence that indicates he had contingencies planned for his death (he told Proyas he knew he was likely to fail, he instigated the journey of Akka and Mimara for some unknown purpose). Moreover his behavior aside from that indicates something was up. He retrieves Esme and Kelmomas after Dagliash - the moment he confirmed the Dunyain ruled the Consult - he goads Esmenet into releasing Kelmomas. Even Malowebi's head's likely purpose was to act as his third eye - to see Kelmomas.
Not really much difference from your theories than any of Moes, well, maybe some of Moe's. Yours is based on circumstantial evidence, just like Moe's. The tapestry could be made before Kellhus was ever alive. A picture of a project or some such thing. The baby being Holy, in all honesty goes against or theory if anything. Because, of all we've learned about what damned one, Kelly is should be damned as no other. But, I do think Kelly is is Holy for reasons and proof that hasn't come about yet. So, your theory, while intriguing and based on circumstantial eveidence, is no different than 100 other theories that turnt out to be false. Its plausible at best, but so are so many that turned out to be wrong.
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Since I can't scroll down when modifying a post (another issue madness and wilshire), I meant prophet, not project.
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Yours is based on circumstantial evidence
As an aside, I don't like this argument because it implies circumstantial evidence is weighed less or should weigh less than direct evidence (confessions and witnesses identifying the suspect), yet direct evidence can be lies. I mean, irl, the weight the American legal system gives to direct evidence is one of its fatal flaws having led to numerous false convictions over our history. In the text, direct evidence has often been lies.
The baby being Holy, in all honesty goes against or theory if anything. Because, of all we've learned about what damned one, Kelly is should be damned as no other. But, I do think Kelly is is Holy for reasons and proof that hasn't come about yet.
Should he, though? Because despite Mimara possessing the Judging Eye, we still understand little about what damns and what saves. Mimara and Esmenet are Saved for some reason, and definitely in the case of the latter, she has committed numerous sins - she has had innocents slaughtered, tortured, burned - yet the only sins Mimara sees are the carnal sins meaning Esmenet committed no sins when acting for Kellhus. So if anything, whether Kellhus should be damned is an utter mystery, given the weird circumstances that seem to absolve sins.
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To your point on what damns and saves. We know through Koringhus and even Kellhus in TUC, what is Holy. Its textual evidence. I have linked quotes multiple times across many threads on this forum. Ignorance, and innocence are the most Holy attributes on Earwa. Its why Sërwe is a cipher for the series, her ignorance and innocence. Its why Esme is saved, as per Kellhus, he kept her ignorant to many things to protect and save her. Ignorance and innocence is what is Holy and that is textual fact. I can quote a 100 quotes to back this up. But, a close reading of the book provides these answers..and I've quoted it more than enough times prior to TUC. And, Kellhus confirms this to Esme in Chapter 1. So we know.
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Sorry, I can only modify short poats, so sorry for double posts. Now, I agree that Kellhus could be saved by some future event. Say waging war on the 100 and therefore eliminating Hell and damnation, to an extent. In sure this would make him holy and absolve his sins. If what we see in the dreams is in fact Kellhus's version so to say of the Outside, his domain, it seems like a very serene and peaceful place. So, yea, there is room for him to become holy or even be so.
Again, I'm not saying your theory doesn't have merit, it does. I just have a issue with your wording, I guess. That your saying this is what happened, that Kellhus IS Mimara's baby, your posts seem to claim this as fact. When, I feel many would disagree with that and you have no concrete proof that it is indeed true. Soory, if you feel I am being hostile, I am not. I just think your making declarations, that are in fact only speculations.
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To your point on what damns and saves. We know through Koringhus and even Kellhus in TUC, what is Holy. Its textual evidence. I have linked quotes multiple times across many threads on this forum. Ignorance, and innocence are the most Holy attributes on Earwa. Its why Sërwe is a cipher for the series, her ignorance and innocence. Its why Esme is saved, as per Kellhus, he kept her ignorant to many things to protect and save her. Ignorance and innocence is what is Holy and that is textual fact. I can quote a 100 quotes to back this up. But, a close reading of the book provides these answers..and I've quoted it more than enough times prior to TUC. And, Kellhus confirms this to Esme in Chapter 1. So we know.
And yet Kellhus tells us Serwe burns in Hell. You're using Kellhus as direct evidence for ignorance-as-holy, yet ignoring him on another.
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Its nice that this is your view and really I am intrigued. But, it by no means is concrete fact that Mimara's baby is Kellhus. Ill concede the tapestry and timeline roughly fit. But, nothing in the text makes it cannon. So slow down there Jurble. At this point, and for a long while I suspect, its pure theorizing. And that's fine, we so a lot of that around here.
Why such hostility? I'm laying out a theory. Should I modify my sentences with "maybe, perhaps" or other such nonsense adverbs instead of stating my arguments with simple linking verbs? You know that's what they explicitly teach not to do in university when making arguments.
Alright lets do this, since it appears we have a teachable moment.
You both need to work on people skills ;). I doubt either of you intended to be inflammatory, but that doesn't mean you weren't, nor does it excuse you. Giving someone a generous reading is a choice, and so is being offended, hurt, and put off. We try to keep things amicable here, so lets tone it down a bit (most of your interaction has been fine, but just be aware please).
Probably noteworthy that relationship councilors in fact encourage the use of said modifiers (this isn't a university, but a community, after all). Why? It helps people communicate without getting emotional. Same reason why TYPING IN ALL CAPS MAKE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING YELLED AT. Sometimes, even though we know better, doing things a certain way does, in fact, have an affect. Its our choice to make things harder or easier.
And no, that doesn't mean every time something is said it needs a modifier.
Thanks guys! :D
[EDIT Madness: Spacing.]
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And yet Kellhus tells us Serwe burns in Hell. You're using Kellhus as direct evidence for ignorance-as-holy, yet ignoring him on another.
My main point on innocence and ignorance as holy comes from many other instances in the books. Sorweel, Koringhus and many other times its mentioned. I think Kellhus was lying to Proyas as a way to break him even more. We know Kellhus lies when needed. Regardless its a constant theme and mentioned numerous times throughout the series. Ignorance and Innocence is Holy.
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Wilshire, totally not being hostile. Jurble, I'll say it again, sorry, wasn't my intent.
ETA: I hold no grudges or hate for anyone. As Wilshire knows I come across cross at times. Something I need to work on. I promise I meant no ill will and hope you accept my apologies Jurble.
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Since I can't scroll down when modifying a post (another issue madness and wilshire), I meant prophet, not project.
Are you on your phone, MSJ? Also, can you please take the time to post these and any other issues in the New forum Theme/look/format (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1776.msg35247) thread.
Yours is based on circumstantial evidence
As an aside, I don't like this argument because it implies circumstantial evidence is weighed less or should weigh less than direct evidence (confessions and witnesses identifying the suspect), yet direct evidence can be lies. I mean, irl, the weight the American legal system gives to direct evidence is one of its fatal flaws having led to numerous false convictions over our history. In the text, direct evidence has often been lies.
Either way, I'd appreciate more quoting of the text.
Should he, though? Because despite Mimara possessing the Judging Eye, we still understand little about what damns and what saves. Mimara and Esmenet are Saved for some reason, and definitely in the case of the latter, she has committed numerous sins - she has had innocents slaughtered, tortured, burned - yet the only sins Mimara sees are the carnal sins meaning Esmenet committed no sins when acting for Kellhus. So if anything, whether Kellhus should be damned is an utter mystery, given the weird circumstances that seem to absolve sins.
Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Eye? She sees the No-God or arguably Kelmomas but never Kellhus. As far as I recall - and again, haven't read the canon artifact yet.
Thanks guys! :D
[EDIT Madness: Spacing.]
Thanks, #2. I suppose we should remind MG the ALL-CAPS Wracu of that ;).
Wilshire, totally not being hostile. Jurble, I'll say it again, sorry, wasn't my intent.
ETA: I hold no grudges or hate for anyone. As Wilshire knows I come across cross at times. Something I need to work on. I promise I meant no ill will and hope you accept my apologies Jurble.
You two do interact at Westeros, by the way. jurble is currently going by Ajûrbkli, if I'm not mistaken.
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Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Eye? She sees the No-God or arguably Kelmomas but never Kellhus. As far as I recall - and again, haven't read the canon artifact yet.
Yes, Mimara never sees Kellhus (unless Kellhus is her baby). We were discussing whether Kellhus should be damned or not. My point was that we still don't know what damns/saves someone, whereas MSJ was arguing that ignorance saves. I'm currently leaning towards sins only count if actually personally committed i.e. ordering murder isn't a sin, given that Esmenet's only sins are her carnal ones.
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You two do interact at Westeros, by the way. jurble is currently going by Ajûrbkli, if I'm not mistaken.
Yea, but does me contesting his views mean that I am being hostile?
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Yes, Mimara never sees Kellhus (unless Kellhus is her baby). We were discussing whether Kellhus should be damned or not. My point was that we still don't know what damns/saves someone, whereas MSJ was arguing that ignorance saves. I'm currently leaning towards sins only count if actually personally committed i.e. ordering murder isn't a sin, given that Esmenet's only sins are her carnal ones
Take Proyas for example, before the TUC and his transgressions of the Scalded. How manymurders did he commit? Or, how many murders were committed under his command. Mimara killed and she is still holy. So, that line of thinking don't square with me.
[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
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Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Eye? She sees the No-God or arguably Kelmomas but never Kellhus. As far as I recall - and again, haven't read the canon artifact yet.
Yes, Mimara never sees Kellhus (unless Kellhus is her baby). We were discussing whether Kellhus should be damned or not. My point was that we still don't know what damns/saves someone, whereas MSJ was arguing that ignorance saves. I'm currently leaning towards sins only count if actually personally committed i.e. ordering murder isn't a sin, given that Esmenet's only sins are her carnal ones.
Ah, my mistake.
Kellhus, arguably, should be the most Damned soul? It does seem that Kellhus takes upon himself all sin committed in his name, doesn't it...
I'm more and more curious about these mechanics of Damnation. Perhaps, Inrilatas can tell us something.
You two do interact at Westeros, by the way. jurble is currently going by Ajûrbkli, if I'm not mistaken.
Yea, but does me contesting his views mean that I am being hostile?
I didn't perceive you as being hostile but jurble seemed to think so. Regardless, I yield to Wilshire's post. Everyone take a deep breath and let's all keep civilly discussing this series so near and dear to our hearts and brains.
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I'm about to make a thread somewhere called "Building Healthy Relationships", and start moving posts to it :P . Lets not derail the topic any more, though I do appreciate the enthusiasm for bridge building.
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And yet Kellhus tells us Serwe burns in Hell. You're using Kellhus as direct evidence for ignorance-as-holy, yet ignoring him on another.
It could be the cast that both things are actually true though.
The fact that ignorance can be holy doesn't preclude that all ignorance is holy, or that the holy must be ignorant. It could be the case that some ignorance is holy and some is just plain-old ignorance.
I think asking ourselves why Serwë is damned (if she really is damned) is probably pretty telling. All I can really come across would be:
“He’s the God!” she shrieked. “Can’t you see? He’s the God!”
So, what she is damned for is worshiping a false prophet. Interestingly, I don't know that we could have been too sure of whether or not that would be true pre-TUC, but now I don't think there is much doubt that Kellhus is a false prophet. He simply is looking to rewrite the rules, sort of.
So, I think it would be plausible that Esmenet is "saved" by having striven against Kellhus, or at least in the end by not really buying into his "act."
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I'm about to make a thread somewhere called "Building Healthy Relationships", and start moving posts to it :P . Lets not derail the topic any more, though I do appreciate the enthusiasm for bridge building.
:)
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"I think asking ourselves why Serwë is damned (if she really is damned) is probably pretty tellin"
It feels like the answer to this is just that the world is a granary and souls are the bread. Like, damnation may well be a much less moral process than the people of Earwa think.
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His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.
The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.
I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body. But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark? So would it salt?
Only just noticed this thread, so maybe this has been answered already, but... fairly sure the soul is in the brain. Koringhus was musing on this in TGO - the Dunyain surgeons noticed its absence in the brains of sranc.
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His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.
The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.
I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body. But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark? So would it salt?
Only just noticed this thread, so maybe this has been answered already, but... fairly sure the soul is in the brain. Koringhus was musing on this in TGO - the Dunyain surgeons noticed its absence in the brains of sranc.
Oh man, if that's the case then I think there's some serious evidence for the whole "The real Kellhus is the other head" theory. Assuming Kellhus could find a way to separate his head from his body without dying... which seems to be the case if we believe the Decapitant entry.
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yeah the Confluence is what the Dunyain called it.
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There is no concensus on Earwan metaphysics relating to the soul. That doesn't mean we can't have a formal understanding, because the series quite deliberately illustrates observable effects and we have many clarifications direct from Scott.
My take on the metaphysics, as they pertains to souls, and the 'Confluence'.
confluence
ˈkɒnflʊəns
noun
the junction of two rivers, especially rivers of approximately equal width
Meaning has a physical effect in the Earwa - although is serves to transcend mundane physics. The Outside is separated from the World by it's non-physical nature, not it's location. the point where the Outside overlaps the world is along the boundaries of physical stuff, like Cnaiur's skin or the surface of the ground. The ability to see the 'half-real' is what the few possess. Only those that can see the Onta can see the Mark - because the Mark reveals where meanings have been tampered with from 'inside' the World - it looks different.
So, the bifurcate folds of the brain are a natural place to find where to soul 'intersects' with the body across the boundaries. It's why the light from sorcery comes from inside the skull. Handily, this means you just need swap heads in order to transport the soul. Think of the Larvals, the Inchoroi Grafting new bodies and creating synthese (without the Confluence) as well as the Decapitants. It all adds up.
When it comes to the question of souls and Damnation, one should first ask where all meaning comes from? Souls are born ignorant (ideally) but when they die and return to the Outside they have subjectively experienced and created an entire life of meaning. Some of it remains in the World, bleeding into the boundaries and creating an aggregate to the boundary layers of reality (i.e. history)- sometimes creating haunted places and even Topoi like Mengedda.
The problem for souls is that suffering is the most multitudinous and potent type of meaning that they generate, propagate and share through the Daimos. Everybody suffers and everybody creates suffering for others. Even the redeemed, like Esme, have got a bunch of suffering and sin that comprises their identity.
So ... prior to gaining entry to one of the hundred Heavens, such a soul must be shriven. Where then does their suffering go? Into the pit - Ciphrang are keen for any experience and it seems like the weakest 'demon-level agencies' subsist on the most abundant type of meaning - suffering. Thus, 100 hells for every Heaven, and part of everyone is Damned and goes into Hell. Seems like it's just about where the majority of your ego ends up.
However, there are several examples of people who are already Ciphrang before the die. Kosoter, Serwa and C'nauir are all revealed to be Ciphrang by the Judging Eye (althought C'naiur is somewhat more). So these are souls whose ego will make the jump to becoming an Agency within the Outside - a Hunger rather than Fodder (if we can depend on Kellhus' revelations at the Inverse Fire).
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There is no concensus on Earwan metaphysics relating to the soul. That doesn't mean we can't have a formal understanding, because the series quite deliberately illustrates observable effects and we have many clarifications direct from Scott.
Preach :).
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Is it possible that operates with Kellhus some kind of "ascendancy" as in the Malaz saga of Erikson?
I don't know if there is a real paral·lelism but to me Kellhus is so Kellanved (using a malazan analogy) to be (really) dead by a childish intervention.