The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Bertxi on November 27, 2013, 07:10:38 am

Title: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Bertxi on November 27, 2013, 07:10:38 am
I find it hard to dismiss the feeling that Bakker is leading up to a very big hook coming off stage right to grab Kellhus and gaffle him. Sprinkled throughout TJE, and TWLW, we have examples of Dunyain fallibility, and the general contempt for the “world born men”.  Maithanet’s miscalculation regarding Esmenet regarding Kellhus’ own reasons for giving her the command of the New Empire, Maithanet not fully realizing what a monster Kelmomas was/is, Kellhus reading Sorwell’s face incorrectly due to his god masking, Inrilates incorrectly thinking that he could kill Maithanet, Kayutas and Serwa not guessing the fact that the consult might attack them from the rear when they both should know about the hording tendencies of the Sranc. There is also the question if Kellhus knew that the army of the South would be annihilated, and had already calculated that into his Thousand Fold Thought.  All the half Dunyain seem to having glaring weakness due to their feelings of superiority, and it seems to reason that Kellhus, who now seems to believe that he is something more, would share this too. If his objectivity is damaged, then wouldn’t his conclusions reached through his Thousand Fold Thought be flawed as well? He might very well be setting into motion the very thing that he set out to stop, because he just doesn’t understand the Consult, the No-God, or believes incorrectly that he has been truly sent to save the human race.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 27, 2013, 09:09:10 am
Welcome Bertxi, nice first post.  ;)

Not sold on Kellhus being fooled by Sorweel, but it does seem that way.

Further, during PoN there are a few other times when he is nearly screwed by miscalculations and comes through by luck: 

Also, when he kills Moe there is a strong possibility that the reason he does so is because of a twig in his shoe rather than the conclusion that Moe would betray TTT.
Is he relying on the probability trance now, or acting according to what he thinks 'the world' or 'god' is telling him?

On a side note, I can't help but compare the scene where Kellhus spoke to the world soul in TTT and Kelmomas 'communing' with Ajokli at the start of TJE.
If Ajokli is aware of the no-god, he might be the one holding the hook. :)  Trickster god blindsides everyone, fufufu.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 27, 2013, 11:28:14 am
+1 Curethan. Bertxi, if you have lurked around at all you may know too that locke is a major proponent of Dunyain Fallibility. Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse.

Maithanet’s miscalculation regarding Esmenet regarding Kellhus’ own reasons for giving her the command of the New Empire, Maithanet not fully realizing what a monster Kelmomas was/is, Kellhus reading Sorwell’s face incorrectly due to his god masking, Inrilates incorrectly thinking that he could kill Maithanet, Kayutas and Serwa not guessing the fact that the consult might attack them from the rear when they both should know about the hording tendencies of the Sranc.

These are half-Dunyain problems as you note. Kellhus' got 99 problems but this ain't necessarily one.

But...

- Kelmomas avoids scrutiny of anyone but his mother effortfully.
- Kellhus reading Sorweel is ambiguous - he may or may not have spent enough time around Sorweel to realize the dissonance in anticipating his thoughts or Yatwer plays Kellhus.
- Kelmomas kills Maithanet and used Inrilatas as a tool, arguably, while Inrilatas may have achieved some obscure personal ends by trying to die as the most Damned soul.
- No one thinks about the possibility of Yoke Legions, including the Mandate who dreamed of them...

There is also the question if Kellhus knew that the army of the South would be annihilated, and had already calculated that into his Thousand Fold Thought.

+1 - I believe this to be so. Certainly, any military leader worth his weight in salt would have anticipated and planned for losing as much as half of their forces on both a forced and fighting march.

All the half Dunyain seem to having glaring weakness due to their feelings of superiority, and it seems to reason that Kellhus, who now seems to believe that he is something more, would share this too. If his objectivity is damaged, then wouldn’t his conclusions reached through his Thousand Fold Thought be flawed as well? He might very well be setting into motion the very thing that he set out to stop, because he just doesn’t understand the Consult, the No-God, or believes incorrectly that he has been truly sent to save the human race.

+1 - anyone of those interpretations is possible. I for one still think Kellhus capable of managing...
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on November 27, 2013, 04:28:42 pm
I'm sure there is someone around here who wants to agree with you fully, though not I.

I do believe that the Dunyain, i.e Kellhus, is fallible. Most notably in the PoN series. To add to Curethan's list, Kellhus nearly had his neck snapped by Cnaiur out on the beach.

I think that the Dunyain, in a mundane word without Gods or Magic, would reign supreme in all things. However there is much more at work here. There are simply too many variables to correctly guess everything. Look at Moenghus Sr. for example. He had 30 years and couldn't see past the circumfix.

Though I will say that Kellhus might have planned to lose a large part of his army. They are already starving and can't find enough food. That loss will actually allow the rest of the army to survive.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 27, 2013, 05:53:23 pm
It's somewhat ironic in that the Army of the South constituted some of Kellhus' least loyal supporters.

Look at Moenghus Sr. for example. He had 30 years and couldn't see past the circumfix.

Segue, I think you are wrong :P.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Borque on November 27, 2013, 09:20:35 pm
Yes, the Army of the South clearly was the most expendable part. But I don't see the obvious benefit in expending it by blundering, which is basically what happened. Had any sorcerous resources remained at Irsulor, it could have ended very differently.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 27, 2013, 11:40:56 pm
The Mandate are no longer linked to an army and could well be considered a spent force by the Consult. 
The host is described as a mere conveyance and meat shield to get the sorcerers to Golgotteroth.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 03:28:48 am
The Mandate are no longer linked to an army and could well be considered a spent force by the Consult. 
The host is described as a mere conveyance and meat shield to get the sorcerers to Golgotteroth.

I want to believe that, but they have no idea who many chorae they have. They clearly need someone who can pick up a sword in case all the bashrag and great weapon races are wielding them.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 28, 2013, 03:55:48 am
Yep, thus 'meat shield'.

But if the consult think all the sorcerers are with the ordeal, there is no need to hold reserves when they crush them.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 12:06:46 pm
Yes, the Army of the South clearly was the most expendable part. But I don't see the obvious benefit in expending it by blundering, which is basically what happened. Had any sorcerous resources remained at Irsulor, it could have ended very differently.

Again, as I said upthread, I don't necessarily believe that Kellhus counted on such bad tactical decisions by his commanders but, clearly, military strategy suggests people make mistakes and pay dearly for them.

But...

The Mandate are no longer linked to an army and could well be considered a spent force by the Consult. 
The host is described as a mere conveyance and meat shield to get the sorcerers to Golgotteroth.

Moot point - the Ordeal has recombined as one at the end of the WLW.

The Mandate are no longer linked to an army and could well be considered a spent force by the Consult. 
The host is described as a mere conveyance and meat shield to get the sorcerers to Golgotteroth.

I want to believe that, but they have no idea who many chorae they have.

Um... only literally the largest collection in Earwa :)?

Yep, thus 'meat shield'.

But if the consult think all the sorcerers are with the ordeal, there is no need to hold reserves when they crush them.

Lol - I really do like Wic's 'metameatshield' from the Speculation thread, who is riffing off who, I don't know.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 28, 2013, 12:29:07 pm
Moot point - the Ordeal has recombined as one at the end of the WLW.

Eh, I was talking about how the regular army and the Volkanti were pretty much destroyed.  For the sake of speculation, assume that the Mandati did not suffer so badly (they were seperated from the main conflict and then assailed by their contemperaries, who didn't have the gnosis...)  Kellhus rounds up the survivors and grossly overstates the losses amongst the mandate and then spreads them out amongst the army, causing misinformation on the Ordeal's strength and disposition.  The sheer size of the ordeal means that the consult has to rely on torture and espionage for intel as it is.  Of course Kellhus is going to be engaged in tactical subterfuge and counter espionage, this is just one possibility.

Note that he has Mandati such as Ekyanus already split off on assignments with different segments of the army earlier.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 12:43:45 pm
Stretching, sonny son.

Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think the Consult so easily fooled (and I agree that the Mandate wouldn't have lost as many as the Vokalati, however, both are surely affected by Carindusu's error).
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 02:27:54 pm
Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think the Consult so easily fooled (and I agree that the Mandate wouldn't have lost as many as the Vokalati, however, both are surely affected by Carindusu's error).
They are called the Few for a reason.

I now agree with the term meatshield. The confusion was that I thought meatshield was synonymous with useless and expendable. They do fill an important role, everyone knows that any good party has to have a Tank, though its not a very complex one.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 05:19:27 pm
Lol - because I think it's hilarious and because the Great God Procrastidemus demands sacrifice ('cause editing papers is for suckers, just like walking and rain):

Meatshield: The majority of the non-Few, especially those without Chorae, who serve as fodder, to hew Sranc and to be so hewed, in order to convey the Few as unscathed as possible to Golgotterath.

Metameatshield: The Great Ordeal entire, Few and non-Few, who serve as fodder, to hew Sranc and Quya and to be so hewed, in order to convey Anasurimbor Kellhus personally as unscathed as possible to Golgotterath.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 06:06:54 pm
lmao yes. Henceforth these terms have been defined.

11/28/2013
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 28, 2013, 11:22:33 pm
Nice. I feel like I have contributed.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Triskele on November 29, 2013, 06:36:54 am
Not necessarily a mistake, but I wonder about Kellhus' statement to Proyas along the lines of "It would frighten you learn how little of our foe I truly know." 

On the one hand, I feel like Kellhus must have figured out a ridiculous amount by the time of the Great Ordeal.  On the other hand, the Consult is still remote and mysterious as far as we can tell, and Kellhus seemed to have been giving Proyas some truth about Akka, so could this be reliable?
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 29, 2013, 02:22:34 pm
Nice. I feel like I have contributed.

Lol. You and Wic have done well.

On the one hand, I feel like Kellhus must have figured out a ridiculous amount by the time of the Great Ordeal.  On the other hand, the Consult is still remote and mysterious as far as we can tell, and Kellhus seemed to have been giving Proyas some truth about Akka, so could this be reliable?

Who is to say what the Consult has accomplished in milennia, and especially, in the years of tinkering since the advent of the skin-spies... Kellhus only knows that he can use the Tekne to accomplish more...
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Triskele on November 29, 2013, 06:30:53 pm
On the one hand, I feel like Kellhus must have figured out a ridiculous amount by the time of the Great Ordeal.  On the other hand, the Consult is still remote and mysterious as far as we can tell, and Kellhus seemed to have been giving Proyas some truth about Akka, so could this be reliable?

Who is to say what the Consult has accomplished in milennia, and especially, in the years of tinkering since the advent of the skin-spies... Kellhus only knows that he can use the Tekne to accomplish more...

Yeah, I guess we the readers are left to speculate about how capable both sides are.  It is we who are weak.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 29, 2013, 08:40:06 pm
I remember Pat's review before WLW dropped and being in shock that we were still denied a major clash with the Consult...

Now? I appreciate the shadow of memory the trauma will cast across what came before.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: locke on November 30, 2013, 07:20:31 am
I love that this thread exists. My pet nerdanel, my pet which I love and hate because I constantly flagellate myself that I swim in delusions of my own making, falling prey to selection and confirmation bias when I "find" "evidence" for Dunyain weakness.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on November 30, 2013, 01:58:01 pm
Lol - you are easily the number #1 person to push this theory, lockesnow. Now Trisk and I have to battle to the death over who claims Nerdanel's throne as the inceptor (wow; what a fucking word. I mean, this as in the made of sense of inception of an idea, not its actual definition ;)) of Moenghus the Elder, as Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster) with his Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) (Nerdanel pushing this as far back as OG TS).

Also, TV Tropes is a treasure trove of narrative inspiration.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Triskele on December 01, 2013, 09:22:34 pm
Lol - you are easily the number #1 person to push this theory, lockesnow. Now Trisk and I have to battle to the death over who claims Nerdanel's throne as the inceptor (wow; what a fucking word. I mean, this as in the made of sense of inception of an idea, not its actual definition ;)) of Moenghus the Elder, as Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster) with his Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) (Nerdanel pushing this as far back as OG TS).

I think part of what made Nerdanel's nerdaneling so great was how matter-of-fact she would just lay down crazy theories. 
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Borque on December 01, 2013, 09:27:43 pm
Is she still around?
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 02, 2013, 12:33:41 am
Nah, Nerdanel got treated with extreme prejudice for some of his/her kookier ideas over on the Westeros forums by some of the old names and disappeared from the internet. 
It was quite nasty and pretty sad iirc.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on December 02, 2013, 02:04:54 pm
Nah, Nerdanel got treated with extreme prejudice for some of his/her kookier ideas over on the Westeros forums by some of the old names and disappeared from the internet. 
It was quite nasty and pretty sad iirc.

Definitely have to count myself among those aforementioned. I don't remember ever being too kind when correcting Nerdanel :(.

Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 03, 2013, 12:03:46 am
There is exasperation and there is being rude and swearing at people. 
Just had a look though and she/he still seems to be somewhat active over there.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on December 03, 2013, 05:06:41 pm
That's good.

May Nerdanel find the shortest path to us then.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: locke on December 03, 2013, 07:15:47 pm
I think I was mean to nerdanel and regret it. At the time I found her theories hopelessly intricate, now I've become conditioned to generate them on my own. complexity breeds complexity.

I did love her complex theory that Cleric was Ninjanjin.

my favorite quote of her's on ZTS went something like, "it really sucks to have a completely self contained and textual reinforced theory completely destroyed by something the author says outside the books.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on December 05, 2013, 12:06:00 am
Uh someone should go pm this page to the original nerdanel. To think such a mind was lost to the void.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Triskele on December 05, 2013, 02:37:05 am
I think I was mean to nerdanel and regret it. At the time I found her theories hopelessly intricate, now I've become conditioned to generate them on my own. complexity breeds complexity.

Would you go so far as to say that she showed you that the Steppe was trackless?   ;D
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: themerchant on January 04, 2014, 09:12:05 am
my favorite quote of her's on ZTS went something like, "it really sucks to have a completely self contained and textual reinforced theory completely destroyed by something the author says outside the books.

I loved her theory that Kellhus goes back in time and the 3rd trilogy is called The first Apocalypse. Hence the secrecy about it's name. It could explain the changing dreams of Akka

Now it seems there might not even be a third trilogy, which makes all the hours speculating its' name moot now. Since RSB says TUC finishes his original story.

Why was there so much speculation about the name of the third triology when there is no need for one to finish the original story?

Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Duskweaver on January 04, 2014, 10:29:19 am
The big problem, for me, in determining the actual capabilities of the Dunyain in general and Kellhus in particular is that I'm pretty sure Bakker goes out of his way to "claim [Kellhus] to be less than what he seemed to be," and so "move men, even learned men such as [us], to hope or fear that he might be more." (TDTCB Ch. 17)
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on January 04, 2014, 01:12:09 pm
my favorite quote of her's on ZTS went something like, "it really sucks to have a completely self contained and textual reinforced theory completely destroyed by something the author says outside the books.

I loved her theory that Kellhus goes back in time and the 3rd trilogy is called The first Apocalypse. Hence the secrecy about it's name. It could explain the changing dreams of Akka

Now it seems there might not even be a third trilogy, which makes all the hours speculating its' name moot now. Since RSB says TUC finishes his original story.

Why was there so much speculation about the name of the third triology when there is no need for one to finish the original story?



Nerdanel said that first! Gall. I've been pushing someone else's conception with my own... nerdanels! :o

themerchant, I definitely think that the comment he made that inspired this "finished story" kind of thought process in fans rather suggested that he had an original teenage spark and he's finishing that with TUC. However, it seems very much like the idea grew beyond that in intervening years. TSTSNBN is definitely still coming and satisfies what Bakker seems to think is an intractable (neh, impossible) problem. My personal guess is that the 'seed idea' was some kind of moral problem within dogmatic religious constraints that Bakker couldn't see himself around then. Probably, following that at some point, he decided he had learned enough to attempt solving (or validating) the issue he thinks he's highlighting?

But pure and rampant speculation based on absolutely no real information. So grain of salt.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on January 04, 2014, 06:13:06 pm
TSTSNBN will come out. Have faith!

However, it seems very much like the idea grew beyond that in intervening years. TSTSNBN is definitely still coming and satisfies what Bakker seems to think is an intractable (neh, impossible) problem. My personal guess is that the 'seed idea' was some kind of moral problem within dogmatic religious constraints that Bakker couldn't see himself around then.
Sounds to me like Bakker couldn't see past the circumfixtion :P
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: themerchant on January 04, 2014, 06:40:03 pm
my favorite quote of her's on ZTS went something like, "it really sucks to have a completely self contained and textual reinforced theory completely destroyed by something the author says outside the books.

I loved her theory that Kellhus goes back in time and the 3rd trilogy is called The first Apocalypse. Hence the secrecy about it's name. It could explain the changing dreams of Akka

Now it seems there might not even be a third trilogy, which makes all the hours speculating its' name moot now. Since RSB says TUC finishes his original story.

Why was there so much speculation about the name of the third triology when there is no need for one to finish the original story?



Nerdanel said that first! Gall. I've been pushing someone else's conception with my own... nerdanels! :o

themerchant, I definitely think that the comment he made that inspired this "finished story" kind of thought process in fans rather suggested that he had an original teenage spark and he's finishing that with TUC. However, it seems very much like the idea grew beyond that in intervening years. TSTSNBN is definitely still coming and satisfies what Bakker seems to think is an intractable (neh, impossible) problem. My personal guess is that the 'seed idea' was some kind of moral problem within dogmatic religious constraints that Bakker couldn't see himself around then. Probably, following that at some point, he decided he had learned enough to attempt solving (or validating) the issue he thinks he's highlighting?

But pure and rampant speculation based on absolutely no real information. So grain of salt.

Well, i think i first read it on westeros from her. My memory is not perfect and it could have been you or perhaps someone else. I loved the theory though.

I also think the gods see everything like from the inside of a black hole, where because of time dilation due to gravity, if one looked back they could see all of history as it crossed the event horizon, and see it at once without any real context of time. It would all just be there. When you look at it you'll see all time but it wont be distinguished by time intervals, so you just see everything, which would make it hard to distinguish when happened what, well i think it would, never actually been inside a black-hole.

With regards to Dunyain weakness. I can't think of any really. I'll keep an eye out as i always take a Bakker book to read on the bus or train.

thanks for the info about the other series, always feels good to know have more Bakker books coming.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on January 05, 2014, 12:42:18 am
Nice analogy, themerchant. 

Extending: The hundred are also confined somewhat to their own dimensions (i.e. some division of the outside).  Meaning they can't see everything,  mainly the reflections that are somehow abutted to their own 'portfolio' of meaning.

So they perceive events from outside of time with variations in clarity.  The 'holier' an event/soul is to them the clearer they can see it.
The ability to influence causality is likely restricted to events that resonate with the meanings in which their power is invested.

Kind of the opposite to how dunyain must approach manipulating causality.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: themerchant on January 05, 2014, 01:17:54 pm
Yeah cause you'd see all of history in one big clump, if you don't normally exist in linear time it would be hard to understand how things progress on after another in this reality. Perhaps being marked in some way allows ciphrang or gods pick you out of the jumble. Perhaps the event horizon is the gateway between this world and  the outside. They can peer through into linear time via someone connected to the outside like their cult then effect change. Perhaps they can see every iterartion of reality as well, a bit like the Many universe theory.

You could also pick out the path for the whiteluck warrior with that sort of information. A case of what comes after determines what comes before, as they reverse engineer the steps needed for the white luck warrior sword to break.

I don't know really. A lot of the time i feel on the edge of my abilities trying to understand all this.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on January 05, 2014, 01:40:48 pm
Yeah cause you'd see all of history in one big clump, if you don't normally exist in linear time it would be hard to understand how things progress on after another in this reality. Perhaps being marked in some way allows ciphrang or gods pick you out of the jumble. Perhaps the event horizon is the gateway between this world and  the outside. They can peer through into linear time via someone connected to the outside like their cult then effect change. Perhaps they can see every iterartion of reality as well, a bit like the Many universe theory.

You could also pick out the path for the whiteluck warrior with that sort of information. A case of what comes after determines what comes before, as they reverse engineer the steps needed for the white luck warrior sword to break.

I don't know really. A lot of the time i feel on the edge of my abilities trying to understand all this.

+1. Your corroboration what's always been my perspective. The gods have some perceptual biases and blindspots (possibly being limited to appendages of faith or sorcery, as describe) but definitely reside at some point that has the ability to look back on what actually happened from the... I dunno, "end of time?" or the "restaurant at the end of the universe."
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cüréthañ on January 05, 2014, 11:41:17 pm
Yeah.  Note the WLW's perspective is marked by instances where he encounters Yatwer's adherents or incidences which align with Yatwer's divine portfolio.
I think these are points where Yatwer can see and influence causality most effectively.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: themerchant on January 06, 2014, 12:45:09 am
or maybe they only see through when one is sleeping/dreaming. Non-souled Beings do not "dream" therefore don't project into the outside rendering the gods blind to them. I'm sure i read the cants of calling only work when sleeping because you are closer to the outside. unless you're Moe of course with his face-time Cish app.  Ses found some way to modify a cant of calling so it transmitted certain images of the past when you're connected to the outside by sleeping/dreaming. Also dreaming you're "blind" and seeing without the use of your eyes, but your "third eye" (or minds eye). 

Anyway,  speculating about the wrong thing if one takes the title of the thread for guidance, apologies for taking it off on a tangent.   :-[
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on January 06, 2014, 01:10:51 pm
Lol, tangents are flavour, themerchant :). Though, you'd probably enjoy the Sorcery (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=773.0) thread.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: mrganondorf on February 27, 2014, 09:15:50 pm
I gotta bring up that scene in TWP where the skin spies chase Kellhus into a dark room.  One of them yells "smell him" and Kellhus casts his cloak on a chair and then kills all but one.  For me, this episode highlights what could be all kinds of dunyain weakness: how well can they see? how well can the smell and hear?  Kellhus might have been truly fucked if the skin spy had not yelled in a language Kellhus understood.

I don't mean to suggest that Bakker's going to off Kellhus by exposing him to gas that human nostrils don't detect, just that I think this will be a big part of the end of TUC.  I figure we'll see a succession of surprises and revelations that those surprises were anticipated until kellhus/moenghus/other dunyain are blindsided by something.

I don't go over to 3lbbrain a lot, but I thought Bakker was in love with the idea of mental blindspots.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: oneeyed on February 28, 2014, 12:52:12 am
Well it's obvious the Dunyain have weaknesses, they are still humans.

From the start Khellus has been proven wrong and made mistakes. Do you remember Leweth the trapper with his dogs ? How Khellus described him as lost in his superstitions, seeing the mystic everywhere ? How pathetic the guy seemed....

Quote
For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humours. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.

And now after Khellus has travelled the world and lived outside the Dunyain's refuge, he has accepted a lot of what he thought was myths and superstitions, he's become much like what he despised in the 1st world born he met. Let's face it if there is one glaring weakness in Khellus and probably the Dunyain as a whole, it is arrogance... Being smarter doesn't mean being wiser or more knowledgeable.

One thing that surprises me is how the Dunyain are described as a sect seeking enlightment, and exiling themselves willingly from the world. But then there's the whole training about face reading... For me that's a tool for manipulation and control, I can't accept that's it's needed for suppressing your own emotions. So the Dunyain may have exiled themselves but they are definitely not above world matters.

Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on February 28, 2014, 05:08:00 pm
May I direct you to this post, oneeyed: http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1164.0 . Kellhus was one lucky SOB at the start of his journey. Dunyain get overwhelmed by the influx of new data. As many war games have shown, too much data is not always good and can actually cause more problems.

Dunyain fallibility is easy to miss in the first read if you don't pay attention. For the most part I think I found myself trapped by Kellhus just like the citizens of Earwa. However, once you think about it and go deeper, flaws become apparent.

btw, oneeyed, you read any forgotten realms stuff? Your username reminds me of Gruumsh.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 01:59:30 am
Well it's obvious the Dunyain have weaknesses, they are still humans.

From the start Khellus has been proven wrong and made mistakes. Do you remember Leweth the trapper with his dogs ? How Khellus described him as lost in his superstitions, seeing the mystic everywhere ? How pathetic the guy seemed....

Quote
For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humours. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.

And now after Khellus has travelled the world and lived outside the Dunyain's refuge, he has accepted a lot of what he thought was myths and superstitions, he's become much like what he despised in the 1st world born he met. Let's face it if there is one glaring weakness in Khellus and probably the Dunyain as a whole, it is arrogance... Being smarter doesn't mean being wiser or more knowledgeable.

One thing that surprises me is how the Dunyain are described as a sect seeking enlightment, and exiling themselves willingly from the world. But then there's the whole training about face reading... For me that's a tool for manipulation and control, I can't accept that's it's needed for suppressing your own emotions. So the Dunyain may have exiled themselves but they are definitely not above world matters.

Hinting at the founder's designs?
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Uncle Holy on March 18, 2015, 12:51:03 am
I disagree...for them to successfully stop 'feeling', they must be able to distinguish feelings they see on each other's faces...a bit like you cant write anything meaningful without knowing how to read...Kellhus is fallible definitely...but i'd say his fallibility 'reduced' as he got older and learned more stuff...i believe his TTT took into account the Gods and even the necessary sranc-eating...Did he get deceived by Yatwer? I doubt it...even if Kellhus saw every sign of sincerity on his face, there's no way Sorweel could have turned so quickly and so completely...He anticipated the Gods' interference and thus he would be on the lookout for any weird stuff among the Believer-Kings...
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on March 18, 2015, 10:47:43 am
We never actually see Kellhus grasp the Thousandfold Thought, or understand what that means. All we see is Kellhus deciding he's grasped it.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 18, 2015, 11:05:09 am
Worth remembering if Yatwer is hiding Sorweel it must be more than a face mask...

I mena Kellhus can see elevated pulse responses, perspiration responses and can HEAR heartbeats increasing.

Godly intervention in this case means just that, a complete rewrite of Sorweels local reality frame.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on March 18, 2015, 11:37:16 am
Apparently a more subtle imposition than when she handed him the chorae, though. That one had dramatic effects. Apparently even a God can only force the objective frame of the world so far.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on March 18, 2015, 01:55:31 pm
I disagree...for them to successfully stop 'feeling', they must be able to distinguish feelings they see on each other's faces...a bit like you cant write anything meaningful without knowing how to read...Kellhus is fallible definitely...but i'd say his fallibility 'reduced' as he got older and learned more stuff...i believe his TTT took into account the Gods and even the necessary sranc-eating...Did he get deceived by Yatwer? I doubt it...even if Kellhus saw every sign of sincerity on his face, there's no way Sorweel could have turned so quickly and so completely...He anticipated the Gods' interference and thus he would be on the lookout for any weird stuff among the Believer-Kings...
I agree with pretty much all of that, expect that framing it as "kellhus' TTT" might not be technically correct, but does establish the spirit of what you are saying. Just as TS pointed out:
We never actually see Kellhus grasp the Thousandfold Thought, or understand what that means. All we see is Kellhus deciding he's grasped it.
To me, TTT is just a different way of describing a deep delving into the probability trance, but this definition is hardly the most accepted one. Whatever you want to call it though, what you have described seems to be plausible.

Also, we know that not only Kellhus can see that something is wrong (or at least 'not right') with Sorweel, but also his children, who are only half-dunyain. If Serwe has a mini breakdown trying to discern his true feelings in TUC, then I am 100% sure Kellhus knows something is wrong and is/will be re-formatting his plan to take him into account.

Does Kellhus know the Gods will vie against him? Absolutely. Once he knew that the Gods were actually real he must have come to that conclusion. That doesn't mean he knows exactly how, who, where, or when they will try to interfere, it doesn't mean he knew that Sorweel would become an agent of Yatwer or any other god, and it certainly doesn't mean that he has plans in place to counter every move they might make. What it does mean is that when something like Sorweel shows up, he won't go into ultra-panic mode and shut down.

If nothing else, Kellhus has an acute mastery of the probability trance and has spent decades planning this war. Therefore he has a spectacular ability to plan moves far in advance and will have many contingency plans in cast events don't go the way he originally hoped. The trouble with the probability trance is that its a function of... probabilities. Think back to Moenghus, who had some 30 years to plan. Ostensibly, he failed to consider that Kellhus would come to him "mad"/"broken" from the journey, and it cost him his life. Maybe that was a sure bet, 1 million to 1 odds that Kellhus would break, or maybe it was 50/50, doesn't matter. When something so fundamental goes wrong early on and is not discovered until late in the game, all your planning is for naught.

This is certainly a huge weakness when coupled with the fact that Kellhus is really bad at noticing his own faults/errors/shortcomings, which leaves an opening if things don't go the way he has meticulously planned.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on March 19, 2015, 08:35:48 pm
I didn't interpret Serwa as having a mini-breakdown because she couldn't tell what Sorweel was feeling. Rather, she had a breakdown because all her senses were telling her he was feeling something that made no sense for him to feel. A subtle but important distinction.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on March 19, 2015, 08:48:49 pm
I didn't interpret Serwa as having a mini-breakdown because she couldn't tell what Sorweel was feeling. Rather, she had a breakdown because all her senses were telling her he was feeling something that made no sense for him to feel. A subtle but important distinction.
I guess thats what I meant. The sensory outputs from Sorweel lent to an emotional/physical state the did not match up with what a Dunyain would predict him to be feeling based on the recent events of his life, especially considering the way that they knew he was feeling in the weeks/days before his 'masking'. There should not, could not, have been the change that they all now see.

I agree that it wasn't that she couldn't tell what he was feeling, because it was what he was apparently feeling that did not make sense.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on March 19, 2015, 08:51:22 pm
It's cool seeing Dunyain freak out like a human being when their greatest tool turns out to be unreliable. Even if it is just a half-dunyain.

Of course half-dunyain vary a lot. Serwa so far seems more "human" than Kayutas, for example.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on March 20, 2015, 12:33:09 pm
Yeah she seems to be the most "human" and/or "balanced", kind of like Maithanet, probably because Kellhus spent the most time carefully attending to his one offspring that would become a schoolman.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on March 21, 2015, 03:04:14 pm
Some of the stuff from Esmi's perspective makes it sound like Serwe was largely raised by the Swayali rather than her or Kellhus, and that Serwa was more human from the very start. She's not objective though, so who knows.

Kellhus seems to have spent some time crafting Kayutas but Esmenet never had any difficulty seeing his inhumanity. He does not experience love. Serwa, allegedly, did.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: themerchant on March 22, 2015, 06:30:23 am
I don't think the half-dunyain differ that much, Inri says as much to uncle holy, talking about how he dons the persona of a more human Kellhus for Esme. People would be appalled how humanity is a coat they don because that's what moves humans.

Whatever showing of humanity is just cause it is expedient. I have my doubts that Thelli is a stuttering cringer as well. why else would Bakker put references into Little Kel's point of view where he feels Thelli is watching him. (i believe when esme is taking her afternoon sun and they discuss the Maithanet problem).

or they could all be as they seem, or something inbetween lol
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on March 22, 2015, 07:46:47 am
Kelmomas and Samarmas  at least differ from most of their siblings, save maybe Inrilatas. Maithanet is fairly different from most of Kellhus' children as well. I don't have difficulty believing they can vary in what they inherit.

Serwa seems to have some genuine affection for Moenghus II. Yeah, everything all of them do could be part of some deeper unknowable game that we're incapable of seeing, sure. But that's absolutely useless to speculate about. Because we, by definition, cannot know it until it's shown in the books.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Uncle Holy on March 27, 2015, 08:36:50 pm
It's cool seeing Dunyain freak out like a human being when their greatest tool turns out to be unreliable. Even if it is just a half-dunyain.

Of course half-dunyain vary a lot. Serwa so far seems more "human" than Kayutas, for example.
I think it's all a matter of who's got the most training...None of them got the full Dunyain training like Maithanet (or at least as much as a half-dunyain can take)...
Kellhus definitely spent time with Kayutas, shaping him, so he's a bit like Maitha...
Serwa went to the Swayali when she was very young so all she's got is her native inherited abilities with very little training and this gives her some measure of humanity...
Well it's obvious the Dunyain have weaknesses, they are still humans.

From the start Khellus has been proven wrong and made mistakes. Do you remember Leweth the trapper with his dogs ? How Khellus described him as lost in his superstitions, seeing the mystic everywhere ? How pathetic the guy seemed....

Quote
For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humours. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.

And now after Khellus has travelled the world and lived outside the Dunyain's refuge, he has accepted a lot of what he thought was myths and superstitions, he's become much like what he despised in the 1st world born he met. Let's face it if there is one glaring weakness in Khellus and probably the Dunyain as a whole, it is arrogance... Being smarter doesn't mean being wiser or more knowledgeable.

One thing that surprises me is how the Dunyain are described as a sect seeking enlightment, and exiling themselves willingly from the world. But then there's the whole training about face reading... For me that's a tool for manipulation and control, I can't accept that's it's needed for suppressing your own emotions. So the Dunyain may have exiled themselves but they are definitely not above world matters.



I dont think the Dunyain are arrogant...The fact that Kellhus always seems to be in control may give the illusion of arrogance, but i believe we've established that the Dunyain arent big on humanity...He's simply in control. When he realizes he's made a mistake, he adjusts...
Quote
Grunting, the barbarian redoubled his fury. Kellhus parted a hammering rain of blows, feigning desperation. He reached out and clamped Cnaiür’s right wrist, yanked him forward. Somehow, impossibly, Cnaiür managed to bring his free hand up, seemingly through Kellhus’s sword arm. He pound his palm into Kellhus’s face.
Kellhus fell backward, kicking Cnaiür twice in the ribs. He rolled into a handstand, effortlessly vaulted back into stance.
He tasted his own blood. How?
The Scylvendi stumbled, clutching his side.
He’d misjudged the man’s reflexes, Kellhus realized, as he had so many other things.
The fact that he discounted everything Leweth said is just as a result of his training...his foundation is reason or the Logos...there aint no sorcery and gods in the Logos, so he had no reason to believe Leweth (who was so childish in his eyes)...as soon as he discovered sorcery was real, he began planning ways to learn it...arrogance implies pride and the ability to feel shame and i definitely wouldnt call kellhus proud...
Quote
"The whisper warns you!" Inrilatas laughed, his eyes bright, not for the twin flames they reflected, but something more incendiary still: apprehension. "You do not like sharing... Such a peevish, devious little soul! Come closer, little brother."
He sees me!
"You cannot let him fool you!" the boy cried, trying to goad a pride that did not exist.

The most allowance i'll give is that since Kellhus is still not the Logos incarnate, he'll still have traces of these feelings, but only traces. If the Dunyain possess any weakness, its one that all humans share...
Quote
It was all the young Prince-Imperial could do to simply stand and breathe. All his crimes, he had committed in the shadow of assumption. Were his Uncle to suspect him capable—of murdering Samarmas, Sharacinth—he would have quickly seen his guilt, such were his gifts. But for all their strength, the Dûnyain remained as blind to ignorance as the world-born—and as vulnerable.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on March 31, 2015, 02:22:45 pm
It's cool seeing Dunyain freak out like a human being when their greatest tool turns out to be unreliable. Even if it is just a half-dunyain.

Of course half-dunyain vary a lot. Serwa so far seems more "human" than Kayutas, for example.
I think it's all a matter of who's got the most training...None of them got the full Dunyain training like Maithanet (or at least as much as a half-dunyain can take)...
Kellhus definitely spent time with Kayutas, shaping him, so he's a bit like Maitha...
Serwa went to the Swayali when she was very young so all she's got is her native inherited abilities with very little training and this gives her some measure of humanity...


I think we have seen what non-training leads to. Kelmomas, Samaras, Inrilatas, Thelopia. There is no way that Serwe just happened to be more human than the rest. I think Kellhus spent much time and effort developing the entire school from nothing. He had to personally train every witch until there were enough to carry on the task. He built that school to be entirely independant from every other one, and wouldn't have risk their influence in having them teach his students. Kellhus must have been deeply involved with Serwa's upbringing, both in the school and in the various dunyain trainings that now make her appear sane.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 31, 2015, 06:20:20 pm
Interesting wording Wilshire - "make her appear sane".

So I assume by this you infer she is not entirely sane? We are back to the question of what is an "insane" Dunyain.

I think when measuring Kellhus children we should take him to measure as well - yes he is Dunyain, but he was once just a child, yeah maybe the prodigy child - but he was always prone to bouts of emotion.

Just find it interesting - that is all.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2015, 05:49:22 pm
By that I meant that she appears human, so circumventing the entire dunyain conversation :P.

She looks sane - human - as Maithanet does: the layman looks upon them and does not see some obvious flaw that would be expected to be seen in a not-entirely-sane person.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on May 20, 2015, 02:38:00 am
Her brother says she's insane.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: mrganondorf on June 02, 2015, 05:27:16 pm
I disagree...for them to successfully stop 'feeling', they must be able to distinguish feelings they see on each other's faces...a bit like you cant write anything meaningful without knowing how to read...Kellhus is fallible definitely...but i'd say his fallibility 'reduced' as he got older and learned more stuff...i believe his TTT took into account the Gods and even the necessary sranc-eating...Did he get deceived by Yatwer? I doubt it...even if Kellhus saw every sign of sincerity on his face, there's no way Sorweel could have turned so quickly and so completely...He anticipated the Gods' interference and thus he would be on the lookout for any weird stuff among the Believer-Kings...
I agree with pretty much all of that, expect that framing it as "kellhus' TTT" might not be technically correct, but does establish the spirit of what you are saying. Just as TS pointed out:
We never actually see Kellhus grasp the Thousandfold Thought, or understand what that means. All we see is Kellhus deciding he's grasped it.
To me, TTT is just a different way of describing a deep delving into the probability trance, but this definition is hardly the most accepted one. Whatever you want to call it though, what you have described seems to be plausible.

Also, we know that not only Kellhus can see that something is wrong (or at least 'not right') with Sorweel, but also his children, who are only half-dunyain. If Serwe has a mini breakdown trying to discern his true feelings in TUC, then I am 100% sure Kellhus knows something is wrong and is/will be re-formatting his plan to take him into account.

Does Kellhus know the Gods will vie against him? Absolutely. Once he knew that the Gods were actually real he must have come to that conclusion. That doesn't mean he knows exactly how, who, where, or when they will try to interfere, it doesn't mean he knew that Sorweel would become an agent of Yatwer or any other god, and it certainly doesn't mean that he has plans in place to counter every move they might make. What it does mean is that when something like Sorweel shows up, he won't go into ultra-panic mode and shut down.

If nothing else, Kellhus has an acute mastery of the probability trance and has spent decades planning this war. Therefore he has a spectacular ability to plan moves far in advance and will have many contingency plans in cast events don't go the way he originally hoped. The trouble with the probability trance is that its a function of... probabilities. Think back to Moenghus, who had some 30 years to plan. Ostensibly, he failed to consider that Kellhus would come to him "mad"/"broken" from the journey, and it cost him his life. Maybe that was a sure bet, 1 million to 1 odds that Kellhus would break, or maybe it was 50/50, doesn't matter. When something so fundamental goes wrong early on and is not discovered until late in the game, all your planning is for naught.

This is certainly a huge weakness when coupled with the fact that Kellhus is really bad at noticing his own faults/errors/shortcomings, which leaves an opening if things don't go the way he has meticulously planned.

there's no way Moenghus didn't plan for the possibility of Kellhus breaking!  the Cishaurim were there at Caraskand!  they certainly weren't helping the Padirajah, and Moenghus had to have known that Kellhus was hanging on the Circumfix, but Moe did nothing to cut him down!  hanging on the Circumfix for as long as he did, had to represent a significant chance of 'breaking'


on an unrelated point: it would be kind of neat if Serwe's long con is to convince everyone that she has human emotion when she really has even less than Kayutas!
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: mrganondorf on June 02, 2015, 06:05:17 pm
Apparently a more subtle imposition than when she handed him the chorae, though. That one had dramatic effects. Apparently even a God can only force the objective frame of the world so far.

could you say more!  i don't get it!
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on June 04, 2015, 12:38:27 pm
Everything in the Moe/Kell conversation pointed to Moe back peddling. I would be impressed if you could find anything in the text from that that scene that suggests in any way that Moenghus was lying about Kellhus showing up broken.

You cannot track every possibility. Assumptions must be made. Moenghus made the wrong assumption and died for his miscalculations. No Dunyain is omniscient, and sometimes the dice just don't roll the way you want.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Blackstone on March 31, 2016, 11:09:43 pm


[/quote]

Kellhus spent much time and effort developing the entire school from nothing. He had to personally train every witch until there were enough to carry on the task. He built that school to be entirely independant from every other one, and wouldn't have risk their influence in having them teach his students. Kellhus must have been deeply involved with Serwa's upbringing, both in the school and in the various dunyain trainings that now make her appear sane.
[/quote]

Do you have a location for this, because I don't remember it.

I think she IS more human than most of the other kids. Esmi thinks back to how even when Serwa was a baby, she showed signs of humanity and the ability to love.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 12:26:45 am
@ Wilshire - I'm not sure I could provide the proof you want!  My reading is that Moenghus is playing a role for the whole conversation.  I think that everything he says is a lie.

I agree with you that not even a Dunyain could track every possibility, but the possibility that Kellhus would be broken by the trial would be a big big possibility to ignore.  Anywayz, I thinks Moe manufactured the breakdown.  I read that final conversation as Moe speaking semi-scripted lines to test if Kellhus will produce the predicted responses.  Playing weak is a Dunyain thing!

Hi Blackstone!  I find Serwe so fascinating.  Maybe she'll be blinded and become a necromancer or Cishaurim.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 02:27:43 pm
@ Wilshire - I'm not sure I could provide the proof you want!  My reading is that Moenghus is playing a role for the whole conversation.  I think that everything he says is a lie.

I agree with you that not even a Dunyain could track every possibility, but the possibility that Kellhus would be broken by the trial would be a big big possibility to ignore.  Anywayz, I thinks Moe manufactured the breakdown.  I read that final conversation as Moe speaking semi-scripted lines to test if Kellhus will produce the predicted responses.  Playing weak is a Dunyain thing!

Hi Blackstone!  I find Serwe so fascinating.  Maybe she'll be blinded and become a necromancer or Cishaurim.

I'm in the camp that Moe really was weak for a Cishaurim and that the Psukhe is (on average) one of the weaker magics. I think Moe chose the longest path.

If there was ever a chance to see the Meta-Psukhe, I think it would be with Serwa. She is the only one of the (half) Dunyain to show the requisite passion that would be necessary to be powerful in that magic. But doesn't it require passion in regards to the Solitary God?
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2016, 05:42:37 pm
Yeah passion akin to religious fervor is how I read it.

I don't think the mechanics of the Psuhke allow for a meta- prefix. Its just stronger via more passion. Its not like you can add a 3rd inutteral string of more passion-y words - if they in fact even use the same structure.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 05:46:38 pm
Yeah passion akin to religious fervor is how I read it.

I don't think the mechanics of the Psuhke allow for a meta- prefix. Its just stronger via more passion. Its not like you can add a 3rd inutteral string of more passion-y words.

That is probably correct.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on April 21, 2016, 04:30:38 pm
I dunno. Maybe the Psukhe works off emotional dissonance? Then a batshit crazy person like Cnaiur would be great at it.

If there was ever a chance to see the Meta-Psukhe, I think it would be with Serwa. She is the only one of the (half) Dunyain to show the requisite passion that would be necessary to be powerful in that magic. But doesn't it require passion in regards to the Solitary God?
Kelmomas and Samarmas seem as much if not more passionate and are one(?) of the Few. And no, Titirga in the Atrocity Tales had something akin to a Gnostic Psukhe variant and he didn't have faith in the Solitary God.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on April 21, 2016, 04:42:00 pm
I dunno. Maybe the Psukhe works off emotional dissonance? Then a batshit crazy person like Cnaiur would be great at it.

If there was ever a chance to see the Meta-Psukhe, I think it would be with Serwa. She is the only one of the (half) Dunyain to show the requisite passion that would be necessary to be powerful in that magic. But doesn't it require passion in regards to the Solitary God?
Kelmomas and Samarmas seem as much if not more passionate and are one(?) of the Few. And no, Titirga in the Atrocity Tales had something akin to a Gnostic Psukhe variant and he didn't have faith in the Solitary God.

I think thats a wishful interpretation of TFS. Titirga was more powerful, and had an odd mark, but the words - the utterals and inutterals - were the old gnostic cants of the nonmen.

The most powerful anagogic sorcerer might be more powerful than the weakest gnostic, but that doesn't mean he is using the gnosis. The words and their meaning is what determines that, not the power of the dispensation.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: H on April 21, 2016, 04:59:11 pm
I think it is hard to drawn hard conclusions from Titirga because I have a feeling that he is an outlier in every sense.  I think the lesson we learn from him is that something akin to the Psukhe existed in the past, but it was rare and not well understood.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Blackstone on April 21, 2016, 05:21:43 pm
Where is this idea about a Psukhe-Gnosis hybrid coming from? Titirga was a gnostic sorcerer. The difference what that his meanings were so unadulterated that his Mark appeared different.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on April 21, 2016, 05:32:32 pm
I didn't mean it so literally. His version of the gnosis did seem to be tinged by the apparent basic metaphysical crux of the Psukhe-blindness followed by passion and deadening of the signs of sorcery, and it seems to have enhanced his gnostic cants. But no belief in a solitary God was required for that much.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Blackstone on April 21, 2016, 05:36:15 pm
I didn't mean it so literally. His version of the gnosis did seem to be tinged by the apparent basic metaphysical crux of the Psukhe-blindness followed by passion and deadening of the signs of sorcery, and it seems to have enhanced his gnostic cants. But no belief in a solitary God was required for that much.

I don't see any comparison between the two. Titirga had a "washed" Mark (as opposed to no Mark) and if it's purity of meaning that makes him so powerful, then that would be the opposite of the Psukhe, which relies on the intensity of passion for power.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on April 21, 2016, 09:45:44 pm
I don't see any comparison between the two.
They both appear less flawed than conventional sorcery.

and if it's purity of meaning that makes him so powerful, then that would be the opposite of the Psukhe, which relies on the intensity of passion for power.
The intensity of passion is what Kellhus alleges gives them the purity of meaning. The feeling is so close to the God's own voice that it is indistinguishable from the world as the God created it.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Blackstone on April 21, 2016, 10:03:01 pm
I don't see any comparison between the two.
They both appear less flawed than conventional sorcery.

and if it's purity of meaning that makes him so powerful, then that would be the opposite of the Psukhe, which relies on the intensity of passion for power.
The intensity of passion is what Kellhus alleges gives them the purity of meaning. The feeling is so close to the God's own voice that it is indistinguishable from the world as the God created it.

I still think there's a pretty wide gulf between a mark being "washed," which sounds like it's faded vs the Cishaurim, who have no mark.

I'll concede your second point to a degree ;D but we have no indication that Titirga's passion (or lack of) has bearing on his ability in sorcery.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on April 21, 2016, 10:09:04 pm
It's an educated guess more than a real theory, I grant you.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: themerchant on April 22, 2016, 07:56:17 am
It's cause he was blind when "the white" found him. He goes mad when he cants and siezes things he shouldn't. (i think that's the quote)

the last bit might tie in with what Kellhus tells Proyas about the demon heads. 2 types of revelation, those that sieze (priest) those that are siezed (sorcerer).

Also Bakker said somewhere that it's at times of extreme emotional stress that folk "use magic" presumably the "Psukhe".

Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Blackstone on April 22, 2016, 03:00:03 pm
It's cause he was blind when "the white" found him. He goes mad when he cants and siezes things he shouldn't. (i think that's the quote)

the last bit might tie in with what Kellhus tells Proyas about the demon heads. 2 types of revelation, those that sieze (priest) those that are siezed (sorcerer).

Also Bakker said somewhere that it's time of extreme emotional stress that folk "use magic" presumably the "Psukhe".

Yeah, I see that, but when I think about it logically, the two still don't seem comparable. Titirga was blind when they found him, which I think could be a reason why his meanings were so pure even after he gained his sight. I don't think blinding a Mandate schoolman as an adult that had vision his entire life would increase his level of power. It was my understanding (and I could be wrong) that part of the reason Cishaurim blind themselves is to prove their faith (which in turn is an indicator of their passion).
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on April 22, 2016, 07:22:02 pm
We never really are told for sure why the Cishaurim blind themselves in those terms, aside from some vague thing about it allowing them to see better in another way or something. Although technically, we never hear the Cishaurim talk about their metaphysics at all. Just hypotheses from Kellhus. Titirga is, actually, the only way any of Kellhus' claims are substantiated at all.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: themerchant on April 23, 2016, 11:45:57 am
It's cause he was blind when "the white" found him. He goes mad when he cants and siezes things he shouldn't. (i think that's the quote)

the last bit might tie in with what Kellhus tells Proyas about the demon heads. 2 types of revelation, those that sieze (priest) those that are siezed (sorcerer).

Also Bakker said somewhere that it's time of extreme emotional stress that folk "use magic" presumably the "Psukhe".

Yeah, I see that, but when I think about it logically, the two still don't seem comparable. Titirga was blind when they found him, which I think could be a reason why his meanings were so pure even after he gained his sight. I don't think blinding a Mandate schoolman as an adult that had vision his entire life would increase his level of power. It was my understanding (and I could be wrong) that part of the reason Cishaurim blind themselves is to prove their faith (which in turn is an indicator of their passion).

The only thing i recall about the Cish is Kellhus saying they blind themselves(the one angle they see) to better recollect the portions they do not see. I'll try and find it as i don't recall the exact quote.


from Bakker himself: "the Psukhe utilizes the impetus. Practitioners of the Psukhe blind themselves to see through the what and grasp the how, the pure performative kernel of meaning–the music, the passion, or as the Cishaurim call it, the ‘Water.’"


From Kellhus:"The Warrior‐Prophet shrugged. "Think of the way a fire will shroud the world in the course of

illuminating a camp. Often the light of what we see blinds us, and we come to think there is one

angle and one angle only. Though they know it not, this is why the Cishaurim blind themselves.

They douse the fire of their eyes, pluck the one angle they see, to better grasp the many they

recollect. They sacrifice the subtle articulations of knowledge for the inchoate profundities of

intuition. They recall the tone and timbre, the passion, of the God's voice—to near perfection—

even as the meanings that make up true sorcery escape them."

And there it was: the mysteries of the Psûkhe, which had baffled sorcerous thinkers for centuries,

dispelled in a handful of words."

Whatever it all means :D
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on April 23, 2016, 05:34:09 pm
Nil'Giccas says something very similar in Cil-Aujas, about why the Nonmen find the dark holy. Light blinds.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: mrganondorf on April 27, 2016, 12:57:39 am
@ Wilshire - I'm not sure I could provide the proof you want!  My reading is that Moenghus is playing a role for the whole conversation.  I think that everything he says is a lie.

I agree with you that not even a Dunyain could track every possibility, but the possibility that Kellhus would be broken by the trial would be a big big possibility to ignore.  Anywayz, I thinks Moe manufactured the breakdown.  I read that final conversation as Moe speaking semi-scripted lines to test if Kellhus will produce the predicted responses.  Playing weak is a Dunyain thing!

Hi Blackstone!  I find Serwe so fascinating.  Maybe she'll be blinded and become a necromancer or Cishaurim.

I'm in the camp that Moe really was weak for a Cishaurim and that the Psukhe is (on average) one of the weaker magics. I think Moe chose the longest path.

If there was ever a chance to see the Meta-Psukhe, I think it would be with Serwa. She is the only one of the (half) Dunyain to show the requisite passion that would be necessary to be powerful in that magic. But doesn't it require passion in regards to the Solitary God?


Meta-Psukhe --> KELMOMAS

Meppa raises this crazed child to be humanity's last shot against the Whirlwind!
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 19, 2016, 06:22:58 pm

If there was ever a chance to see the Meta-Psukhe, I think it would be with Serwa. She is the only one of the (half) Dunyain to show the requisite passion that would be necessary to be powerful in that magic. But doesn't it require passion in regards to the Solitary God?

That should have been Maithanet's moment of awesome.  Instead Bakker wasted him.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 09, 2016, 01:02:44 am
Lets not get confused over how the Psuhke works and the existence of the Solitary God.  The Psuhke's work is, to the best of our knowledge, completely independent of the existence or non-existence of the Solitary God.  The Cishaurim believe that their sorcery is the Water of Indara, but Kelhous's explanation indicates that's not how their sorcery functions.   Titirga and Fane were both blind men finding sorcery, but Fane also experienced religious revelation while Titirga did not and was instead cured of his blindness and educated as a Gnostic Schoolman.  His stain is probably reduced because he has better recollection of the other angles and so his sorcery more closely resembles creation. 
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on August 10, 2016, 03:35:36 pm
The Cishaurim believe that their sorcery is the Water of Indara, but Kelhous's explanation indicates that's not how their sorcery functions.

At this point, either/neither explanation is still possibly false?

instead cured of his blindness

Always wondered about this. I like locke's thought about vitamin deficiency but I do wonder if there isn't another in-world context that explains it.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Callan S. on August 11, 2016, 02:26:10 am
I think Kellhus's explanation is probably wrong - the Cish blind themselves so as to concentrate on what should be, not what is.

That's the contradiction regular sorcery runs into - that they want to change what is, but they want to change it in order to suit other things which just are. For example, walking across the sky - they want to change that you can't walk across the sky, but they want to keep the thing that is - ie, the sorcerer, intact and as is.

The sorcerous mark and damnation may well be separate things. The mark just being the accumulation of contradictions between changing what is but at the same time keeping what is.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 11, 2016, 09:48:23 am
The Cishaurim believe that their sorcery is the Water of Indara, but Kelhous's explanation indicates that's not how their sorcery functions.

At this point, either/neither explanation is still possibly false?

Sure.  We don't know for sure.  Kelhous's explanation is logically consistent and Titirga's experience seems to support it, so it's likely to be mostly accurate, but we don't know for sure.

Quote
instead cured of his blindness

Always wondered about this. I like locke's thought about vitamin deficiency but I do wonder if there isn't another in-world context that explains it.

Sorcery seems to be pretty useless for healing (except fpr cauterizing wounds) and vitamin deficiency blindness (as opposed to night blindness) appears to be permanent.  Cortical blindness, which can be congenital, is caused by blood flow problems in the brain and some victims do recover their sight over time.  So it is possible Titirga suffered from this, regained his sight, and then was train by Schoolmen.  A brain injury might also explain his fearsome rages.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Madness on August 11, 2016, 02:37:06 pm
The Cishaurim believe that their sorcery is the Water of Indara, but Kelhous's explanation indicates that's not how their sorcery functions.

At this point, either/neither explanation is still possibly false?

Sure.  We don't know for sure.  Kelhous's explanation is logically consistent and Titirga's experience seems to support it, so it's likely to be mostly accurate, but we don't know for sure.

I guess I need to do some rereading and check Bakker's latest Author Q&A answers more closely before I can reconcile myself to the context ;).

Sorcery seems to be pretty useless for healing (except fpr cauterizing wounds) and vitamin deficiency blindness (as opposed to night blindness) appears to be permanent.  Cortical blindness, which can be congenital, is caused by blood flow problems in the brain and some victims do recover their sight over time.  So it is possible Titirga suffered from this, regained his sight, and then was train by Schoolmen.  A brain injury might also explain his fearsome rages.

Cool thoughts.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: The Sharmat on August 16, 2016, 06:54:04 pm
The Cishaurim believe that their sorcery is the Water of Indara, but Kelhous's explanation indicates that's not how their sorcery functions.

At this point, either/neither explanation is still possibly false?
Possibly both, even.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: EkyannusIII on August 22, 2016, 11:02:09 pm
I think Kellhus's explanation is probably wrong - the Cish blind themselves so as to concentrate on what should be, not what is.

That's the contradiction regular sorcery runs into - that they want to change what is, but they want to change it in order to suit other things which just are.

Insightful, +1.
Title: Re: Dunyain Weakness
Post by: Wilshire on August 23, 2016, 01:20:03 pm
His stain is probably reduced because he has better recollection of the other angles and so his sorcery more closely resembles creation. 
I like this, and it goes well with Callan's

I think Kellhus's explanation is probably wrong - the Cish blind themselves so as to concentrate on what should be, not what is.

That's the contradiction regular sorcery runs into - that they want to change what is, but they want to change it in order to suit other things which just are.