Questions and hopefully answers

  • 13 Replies
  • 13346 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« on: April 26, 2013, 07:10:41 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
I have been lurking and reading here for about a month now.  Howdy everyone, I'm new here, but not to the second apocalypse.

Here are a few questions I have regarding this forum.  How are y'all getting answers to the books?  How did you all learn about who created the tusk, our is it true the inchies made it?
Where does it say what the tekne is?  What is it?  What is the aporos?
How can y'all understand anything from the white luck chapters?  The only sense is that he did kill maithenet.

Books questions...
How does the chishaurim psuke work?  We all got a lesson in gnostic sorcery from akka the depressing.  But all I know of psyuke (or however it's spelled) is it doesnt leave a mark and its not as powerful as gnosis, and its emotionally driven... But what the hell does that even mean.

When maithenet is killedhe tells esmenet (the most annoying character ever conceived) to tell kellus.... Then he dies.  What was it?  What was the message?

The scalpers, what the hell was going on?  Was ironsoul actually doing kellus bidding?  Then Why not just take the last non man king and akka and mimara right to the ordeal?  Why did that soma skin spy sacrifice itself for mimara?
If kellus supposedly sanctioned this entire akka with scalpers mission, then why doesn't he know that nilgiccas is there and not at ishterebinth? 

Sorweel...  Its obvious he is a pawn If the goddess, I get it and accept it.  He's not the white Luck, but is chosen by the mother of birth. His purpose is unknown.  But his mission with the siblings seems to be a trap because cleric tells akka that his mansion now owes allegiance to golgoterath. 

One other thing, why do so many here think kellus would side with the consult?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2013, 07:10:56 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Welcome SATXZ.
Some of the things we oldtime internet Bakkerites 'know' comes from the first TSA (now dead) forums, where Bakker would answer questions about the series. 
(Many of the most interesting things have been collected and reposted in the last post of this thread here if you would like to check it out - some good 'answers' about your first few queries about the aporos and the tekne.)
Others are drawn from interviews and the related shortstories he has posted on his blog.
The nugget about the tusk, for example, came from an interview.
(The short stories (atrocity tales) are here.
The rest is speculation and interpretation on our part, whether here or from before the existence of this site in the (completely unstructured threads) litererature section of GRRM's Westeros forums - frequently we get little extra clues (like with the psukhe) from interviews etc but nothing definitive so you see a lot of specualtion and thread derailment over those topics. 

It's best to chime in on threads where you don't see how we have arrived at our conclusions - we're all happy to explain why we believe the metatextual things we do and provide references and quotes where possible.   :)

Maithanet is very likely trying to warn Esme and Khellus about Kelmomas (reread the conversation just before the WLW shanks him), but the what and why of that is also ripe for speculation.

The Captain is revealed to be Zaudayuni in WLW, and if you recall the prologue of TJE you will remember a "traveller" recruiting him before Akka even meets Mimara.  The concecus hereabouts is that Kellhus is very likely manipulating Akka's quest, but we are as uncertain of the how or why as you.  Khellhus is also probably playing the Nonman emissary, or they are both in it.  It's one of those 'I know that you think I know that you know that I don't know' situations.  Its a 'show, don't tell' scene where we can't trust either of the characters in the conversation.

Likewise, Sorweel is a character that is caught in the middle.  Are his choices important?  Is Khellus aware that Yatwer is trying to use him?  We don't know.

Re: Khellus siding with the consult.  That's mainly dependant on what the reader thinks his motivation is, imo.  I don't buy it, personally.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2013, 07:11:09 pm »
Quote from: Madness
SATXZ, I'll give you some specific responses, a canned and a bunch of links. Again I apologize to you or anyone else who has found the forum confusing before and even more confusing now. It is being worked on.

Aside from justifications Curethan has given:

Quote from: SATXZ
Where does it say what the tekne is? What is it? What is the aporos?

Currently unanswered? We have various speculation and Curethan gave you a great resource for nuggets like this in his first link.

Quote from: SATXZ
How can y'all understand anything from the white luck chapters? The only sense is that he did kill maithenet.

It's a stylistic choice on Bakker's part, which seems purposeful. It's a cypher, SATXZ, and I'm sure we could either spend more time dismantling the structure he is using but likely, that more information in TUC will enlighten the Warrior's past and future perspectives - I also think we'll have more of them in TUC but again a guess.

Quote from: SATXZ
Books questions...
How does the chishaurim psuke work? We all got a lesson in gnostic sorcery from akka the depressing. But all I know of psyuke (or however it's spelled) is it doesnt leave a mark and its not as powerful as gnosis, and its emotionally driven... But what the hell does that even mean.

Curethan's curated sayings again provide the best collected knowledge. My guess (again because these questions hit upon the unanswered questions of the series) is that it relates to the Cishaurim's religious status/true faith scenario?

Quote from: SATXZ
1)The scalpers, what the hell was going on? 2)Was ironsoul actually doing kellus bidding? 3)Then Why not just take the last non man king and akka and mimara right to the ordeal? 4)Why did that soma skin spy sacrifice itself for mimara?
5)If kellus supposedly sanctioned this entire akka with scalpers mission, then why doesn't he know that nilgiccas is there and not at ishterebinth?

1) Nil'giccas is important - none of the scalping party (which included Nil'giccas and his human and Consult handlers, the Captain and the thing called Soma) knew Achamian, specifically, the Holy Wizard was coming.
3) There is something to be gained by keeping Nil'giccas away from Ishterebinth or world-events by both parties?
4) The Consult seem to treat Esmenet and her daughters with a certain regard - we've guessed that this has something to do with True Prophecies or Last Scion (in relation to the Anasurimbor) scenario?
5) Kellhus is playing the Nonmen Emissary. Kellhus must know that Nin'sariccas is lying about representing Nil'giccas because someone had to give Kosoter enough information about who Cleric truly was to be his elju or memory/book. Therefore, Kellhus plays some greater game. Probably he intends Achamian (or Seswatha within him) to convince the Nonmen to break their agreements with the Consult.

Mimara is a wildcard. We know from Kelmomas' POV that he was the one who motivate the sequence of events that motivate Mimara to leave the Andiamine Palace in the first place. Esmenet may have chosen the destination but Kellhus might have conditioned that choice? So it depends who controls Kelmomas?

Quote from: SATXZ
Sorweel... Its obvious he is a pawn If the goddess, I get it and accept it. He's not the white Luck, but is chosen by the mother of birth. His purpose is unknown. But his mission with the siblings seems to be a trap because cleric tells akka that his mansion now owes allegiance to golgoterath.

+1.

Quote from: SATXZ
One other thing, why do so many here think kellus would side with the consult?

Personally, I think he will use and condition the Consult for the Tekne, as its the next/last obvious tool of limitless power for the Aspect-Emperor. I think Kellhus plays a game that no-one not even the reader is able to determine yet.

Hope that offers what you needed, SATXZ.

Supplementary canned response from the Links to Fan Resources thread in News/Announcements:

Quote from: Madness
1. There is a sticky'd thread[/b] with a link to all Cu'jara Cinmoi's posts. At this point, I'm not personally going to take the time to transcribe Bakker's Zombies Three Seas posts. Everyone is welcome to pollute that thread with their favorites. That includes any aphorisms that anyone would like to share. Eventually that thread can earn the title curated like lockesnow suggested.
2. lockesnow was kind enough to consolidate the epigrams from all the books for us. In every book subforum [WLW, TJE[/b], TTT[/b],
TWP[/b], TDTCB[/b]] there is a sticky'd thread. I'm working on consolidating TPB's aphorisms and the new ones Bakker's been doing over social media. Truth Shines, I believe, and Wilshire also got the Wikiquote project off the hop and everyone is welcome to partake in those threads (again, sticky'd by subforum [WLW[/b], TJE[/b], TTT[/b], TWP[/b], TDTCB[/b]]).
3. I'm not sure what qualifies as critical responses - I have a list of Interviews & Articles that I'd consolidated over the years. lockesnow still has a few - referenced in other threads - where Bakker has some quality commentary on people's responses and reviews. Anyone is welcome to add any links to anything qualifying as relating to Bakker but not an Interview & Article, like reviews, responses, commentary.
4. Fan Resources: There's The Prince of Nothing Wiki. The aforementioned Wikiquote: The Second Apocalypse[/b], R. Scott Bakker[/b]. Three Pound Brain[/b] - Bakker's Blog. Many, many threads on Westeros Literature forum [enumerated by book titles and roman numerals. They are a couple odd threads out - as our speculation was and is insatiable - but you can ask around there for those or search the history for Bakker and other keywords.
5. Everyone is welcome to and encouraged to participate in The Almanac[/b]. All I can ask, at this point, is that people participate in the forum at large as they can - we all have unique lives.

Also, please add anything that would qualify as a resource that I've missed.

EDIT:

Zombie Three-Seas[/u][/b] - The Resurrected Read-Only version of Three-Seas forum, a forum for the Second Apocalypse which was finally overwhelmed by Spam Sranc after the release of TJE.

Summary of Where We Left Off: The Unholy Consult[/b]

Further EDIT: As the forum is all messed up, these are the links to the two forums with the most speculation about The Unholy Consult.

The Unholy Consult[/b]
Misc. Chatter[/b]

Cheers, SATXZ. Thanks, Curethan.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2013, 07:11:22 pm »
Quote from: SATXZ
Quote
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html
Unlike the Gnosis or Anagnosis, Psukhe seems to have come from humans directly(instead of Nonmen). Did the nonmen ever have anything to do with Psukhe? Did humans prior to Fane have anything to do with Psukhe?

Prior to Fane, the Psukhe as an arcane art was unknown, though there are legendary hints and mythic innuendos of certain sightless individuals harnessing inexplicable powers in moments of extraordinary anguish.

Everything comes down to meaning in Eärwa. Where sorcery is representational, utilizing either the logical form (as with the Gnosis) or the material content (as with the Anagogis) of meaning to leverage transformations of reality, the Psukhe utilizes the impetus. Practitioners of the Psukhe blind themselves to see through the what and grasp the how, the pure performative kernel of meaning–the music, the passion, or as the Cishaurim call it, the ‘Water.’ As a contemporary philosopher might say, the Psukhe is noncognitive, it has no truck with warring versions of reality, which is why it possesses no Mark and remains invisible to the Few.

This is why the Psukhe never occurred to any of the other more ancient arcane traditions. As the old saying goes, the man with a hammer thinks every problem is a nail. For the bulk of Eärwa’s history, it’s very possibility remained invisible.

Thanks for showing me some of the links.  I didn't know to trust all the random info across the web regarding the 2nd Apocalypse, but turns out they're official interviews and if you want to know more about Earwa then you have to search (wtf...).

Quote
So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’  --- from Bakker in the same article.
And here I learn about the Tusk and Tears of God.  This totally changes my outlook completely about the World and its three main races.  Why the hell wouldn't this be in the books?  I find it a little outrageous that fans would need to search the web to find this information out.  You simply could not have implied that the inchies created human religion as known in this book.  And religion in Earwa is the most important theme which rules every single soul out there.

In that same interview not all sorcery is damned.  So the Cishaurim are right but everybody else goes to Hell to become demon play things.  That's a hell of a revelation as well.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 07:11:50 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Hmm... Most of that is in The Thousandfold Thought: Glossary at the end of the book.

There's actually a thread I started on Zombie Three Seas a number of years ago that theorized that the Inchoroi inscribed the Tusk well before any of this The Aspect-Emperor stuff. It got one response so clearly many people weren't thinking the same thing.

Sorcery has played this back and forth in the books. Truly, outside of Chorae removing Sorcerers from the world, the Ciphrang Iyokus' uses (but they claim his specific acts of Daimos as what Damn him), Mimara seeing the Tear of God in TJE, and Kellhus word that he's removed Sorcery's damnation, there really isn't much about whether sorcerers were ever really being damned. The way the books read, its almost interpretation.

I'm guessing based on the timing of that interview - its recency - Bakker is priming us for a certain perspective in The Unholy Consult, in order to dupe us more.

I'm curious though - is the thought that Bakker should be consolidating these things officially for the fans somehow?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 07:12:02 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Well the point is that there is a lot of stuff that plenty of people will never know about since they don't bother looking around the web. Though to be fair, at this point, the more in the dark you are, the more you are following how Bakker wants you to read the books. Everything is layered revelations. As such, a place with all the info readily available (at this point) would be counter-intuitive to the whole series.

It wouldn't be until TSA was done, or at least TAE was done, that there could/should be some kind of consolidated version of the truths, myths, and answers that exist in Earwa.

It would be awesome and I'd read it all if something like that were made, but unfortunately it just wouldn't fit. Bakker told us that The Atrocity Tales where TUC spoilers since they gave out information before the time came. If information is labled as spoiler, any discussion about the "true Earwa" would be such.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 07:12:08 pm »
Quote from: Madness
It's interesting because Bakker is certainly aware of how he is priming us for the novels to come...

TheDeliverator

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 05:43:58 pm »
Sadly, almost none of those links work.  I arrive at this post after reading every thread of this subforum.

As an owner\admin of a vbForum I completely understand why and sympathize with whomever did the work to move\maintain this forum.

This forum, which I discovered after reading WLW (before the move), has been an excellent resource and I wish to thank all the regular contributors for their posts.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 05:45:40 pm by TheDeliverator »

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 07:03:00 pm »
Hey Deliverator, I'm MIA on a little life sabbatical but there is an updated version, reflecting new links (excepting the former Second Apocalypse, which is now a redirect) in News/Announcements stickied as Links to Fan Resources. Cheers, welcome to the Second Apocalyse.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2013, 09:51:30 pm »
Are there any links specifically that you'd like to see? I can probably find them if you need them.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TheDeliverator

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2013, 10:28:20 pm »
@Madness & Wilshire

I was able to find everything from from Madness' direction.

To comment on NEED...

Irrationally, I am attempting to consume as much of Bakker's thought process\ideas along with all available reader hypotheses (Nerdanel haha), before rereading WLW.  At this point, the process feels like avoidance, but having come so far, I wish to be as armed as possible before diving into the book again.

Hence, reading this forum as completely as possible.

EDIT:  I feel as if I am missing a semicolon somewhere above.  My poor 9th grade English teacher.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 10:35:14 pm by TheDeliverator »

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 02:41:11 pm »
I'm going to enjoy the post-experience breakdown of that collapse of circumstances into living the connotative readings of the text... Bakker seems to think our ideas exceed the-epic-that-is.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 03:16:59 pm »
Well from my personal (and biased) experience, I'd say  its totally worth it. Though I was a participant in making the posts in some cases, its still a lot of fun to read the thoughts of everyone around, especially our  conflicting ones. Definitely comment on old threads as you see fit. Oh, and not all the posts have anything to do with TSA so you might not need to read them all.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2014, 09:21:50 pm »
Quote
How does the chishaurim psuke work?

I'm starting to suspect that the whole thing is what happens when the dunyain figure out sorcery.  Fane/Cishaurim/Kian all a set up to make the thousandfold thought go!