Reassessing the confrontation between Moe and Kellhus

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2017, 10:38:15 pm »
Interesting, FB. I Wil say this. We will we throw loop after loop in TUC. I will keep this in mind and send you riches worthy of a top notch theorist. Lol :)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2017, 05:55:13 pm »
Or perhaps they simply do not have souls yet, which in the timeless Outside would mean they do in fact have souls, and only appear to be void from the limited perspective of a mortal...

If they all ended up gaining souls though, that would kind of make the whole Inchoroi plan sort of dumb in the end.  Unless Kellhus someone ensouls them all, which seems kind of out there, but maybe possible, although I have no idea why he would.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2017, 05:29:15 am »
Or perhaps they simply do not have souls yet, which in the timeless Outside would mean they do in fact have souls, and only appear to be void from the limited perspective of a mortal...

If they all ended up gaining souls though, that would kind of make the whole Inchoroi plan sort of dumb in the end.  Unless Kellhus someone ensouls them all, which seems kind of out there, but maybe possible, although I have no idea why he would.

Think of it this way -- we basically know that Cnaiur is going to be a Ciphrang when he dies, as RSB confirmed it in our own Q&A. We already know that the Outside is atemporal, though it can appear to change from the perspective of its own eternal inhabitants, even the Gods themselves, as seen with Kellhus and Yatwer.

So, was Cnaiur always a Ciphrang in the Outside? If that's true, then it's possible one of the Ciphrang we've seen already is, or was, a character we know from the story. Not to mention the technique Kellhus used to create the Malowebi-Ciphrang possession. Kosoter is almost certainly another example -- which means there were more than two Ciphrang that Kellhus collected (I have a hope that Kellhus's ventures into the Outside are a bit like the Harrowing of Hell, mixed with the Hindu(?) deity that releases a storm of "demons" from their palm/third eye).
 

Of course this could still go in a different direction at some point (I haven't noticed the author straight up lie about a particular detail in an interview/Q&A, but he certainly tells half or partial truths -- we still really have no idea what an "angelic ciphrang" is for example).

Basically, if a human can turn into something so wildly inhuman as a Ciphrang, I don't see why any of the other lifeforms (including seemingly "soulless" creatures...in the eyes of so-called Gods that don't even realize the No-God is a threat, even when it's actively decimating huge swaths of Earwa).

This is all a bit of a tangent, but since it deals with understanding the Outside and the timeless aspect of Earwa's cosmology (so far as we can tell at this stage) then it can seems useful.

I'm also playing devil's advocate somewhat with the sranc or other soulless being becoming automatically ensouled or something in the Outside. However, I do think that the story is using its own genre as a way of tricking otherwise savvy readers of SF into missing common themes. The skin-spies, in particular, are just robots made of meat (like humans). Unlike say, the aliens from Blindsight by Peter Watts as Wilshire mentioned, which are presented literally as creatures without any sentient experience (OR ARE THEY?), multiple skin-spies have a POV perspective that is humanlike, if not beyond human, but with the integrated programming limitation of an insatiable sexual desire to serve their overlords. Even a sranc has POV in WLW when Somandutta appears before it, which is basically portrayed as a rightfully confused animal that senses what seems like typical normal prey (human), but is off just enough so that it doesn't know what to make of it.

TL;DR What makes a Skin-Spy different from Asimov's robots and their three laws? The Weapon Races (aside from Dragons perhaps) are quite literally artificial intelligence
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 06:06:37 am by The No-Mod »

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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2017, 12:53:56 pm »
I'm also playing devil's advocate somewhat with the sranc or other soulless being becoming automatically ensouled or something in the Outside. However, I do think that the story is using its own genre as a way of tricking otherwise savvy readers of SF into missing common themes. The skin-spies, in particular, are just robots made of meat (like humans). Unlike say, the aliens from Blindsight by Peter Watts as Wilshire mentioned, which are presented literally as creatures without any sentient experience (OR ARE THEY?), multiple skin-spies have a POV perspective that is humanlike, if not beyond human, but with the integrated programming limitation of an insatiable sexual desire to serve their overlords. Even a sranc has POV in WLW when Somandutta appears before it, which is basically portrayed as a rightfully confused animal that senses what seems like typical normal prey (human), but is off just enough so that it doesn't know what to make of it.

TL;DR What makes a Skin-Spy different from Asimov's robots and their three laws? The Weapon Races (aside from Dragons perhaps) are quite literally artificial intelligence

While I understand where you come from, Sranc or Bashrangs aren't really "artificial" any more than a common dog is.  While Sranc didn't occur outside of Inchoroi designs, neither did a Greyhound dog appear outside of human design.  While we would ascribe a certain artificiality to Sranc they are simply something of "de-evolved Nonmen" which is really perfectly "natural" albeit as natural as any other genetically modified organism.  Which is to say that "natural" is a pretty meaningless term once fully unpacked.

I can't follow that a spin-spy is a robot.  It is simply a sentient animal.  It just lacks a soul.  Same with Sranc and Bashrag.  They aren't AI because their intelligence is "natural" that is, simply a debased version of a Nonman, in the same way that a dog's intelligence is a heightened version of a wolf's.  In another real-life example, we don't make robot sheep that are subservient to us, we just breed out any signs of heightened awareness or intelligence.  In the same way, Sranc were probably "made" by either breeding out, or using the Bios to delete, the higher cognitive abilities of Nonmen.  A Scranc's brutality isn't coded, per se, it is simply what's left after higher functionality is removed.

A skin-spy is a little different, but I don't think it is literally coded, in the same way that a robot would be.  I think the "issues" we see with skin-spies are more due to their limited capacity in having no souls, rathan than a limitation of coding.  Indeed, I think skin-spies can act "outside of the box" as Soma seems to do with Mimara, where he changes the mission based on what he thinks Aurang wants.  Sure that could be some sophisticated neural network sort of shit, but considering how limited the Tekne is at the time when skin-spies seem to come to be, I can't imagine that their minds are much more than warped human brains.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2017, 02:32:52 pm »
Love the turn this thread is taking :)

TL;DR What makes a Skin-Spy different from Asimov's robots and their three laws? The Weapon Races (aside from Dragons perhaps) are quite literally artificial intelligence
Which is to say that "natural" is a pretty meaningless term once fully unpacked.
Yup. In nearly all cases I cringe when people discuss 'natural' . Its either in reference to something that's explicitly supernatural, ie coming from some sort of metaphysical deity, or totally meaningless as to what distinguishes it from whatever unnatural counterpart.

I can't follow that a spin-spy is a robot.  It is simply a sentient animal. 
There is no difference between a sentient robot and a sentient animal, except the hardware maybe. I

In the case of skinspies, I presume they have flesh and tissue brains and/or synapses and nerves, making even that no longer an available cop-out.

So, robots/AI/skinspies are indistinguishable from sentient animals. From humans. Well, except the whole soul thing.

It just lacks a soul. 
Right :)

Same with Sranc and Bashrag.  They aren't AI because their intelligence is "natural", that is, simply a debased version of a Nonman
They are an intelligence created using technology. Not sure how you get more Artificial than that. But, as I mentioned initially, 'natural'?

Do you mean anything 'natural' must have been created by Ciphrang/Gods/Gods/Zero-God/Solitary God/[insert whatever metaphysical supernatural being ends up being correct]? If so, then any of the derived are unnatural/artificial.

Or does a 'natural' process have to arise from random change? ie Evolution? If so, sranc must be unnatural/artificial in that they were created systematically by the Inchoroi.

, in the same way that a dog's intelligence is a heightened version of a wolf's. 
Quick aside, I'm pretty sure in this analogy the Wolf is the Nonman, the Dog Sranc. Similarly, dogs are dumbed down versions of wolves - if there is in fact any functional way to measure the intelligence of either (dogs/wolves I mean. I'm sure you could get a sranc and a Nonman to take an IQ test ;) )

In another real-life example, we don't make robot sheep that are subservient to us, we just breed out any signs of heightened awareness or intelligence.  In the same way, Sranc were probably "made" by either breeding out, or using the Bios to delete, the higher cognitive abilities of Nonmen.  A Scranc's brutality isn't coded, per se, it is simply what's left after higher functionality is removed.
What's the difference between the two things you described - selective breeding or using the Bios to delete, and coding?
I don't see any difference. In either case, you are purposefully creating a set of instruction that are hard wired into the electronic bearing circuitry of the thing - be it a positronic brain or a wet brain. In either case you have neurons or circuits that fire in the pattern that you prefer, and don't fire in a way you don't prefer.

Organic tissues and DNA are no different from inorganic metals, organic wires (remember, organic refers to just about anything with Carbon in it, as long as it doesn't have any of the listed 'inorganic' atoms), and computer code.

A skin-spy is a little different, but I don't think it is literally coded, in the same way that a robot would be.  I think the "issues" we see with skin-spies are more due to their limited capacity in having no souls, rather than than a limitation of coding.  Indeed, I think skin-spies can act "outside of the box" as Soma seems to do with Mimara, where he changes the mission based on what he thinks Aurang wants.  Sure that could be some sophisticated neural network sort of shit, but considering how limited the Tekne is at the time when skin-spies seem to come to be, I can't imagine that their minds are much more than warped human brains.
The amount of understanding you'd have to have to create even a simulacrum of a mind in a functioning, artificially created, organic body capable of complex thoughts and reasoning, would be pretty immense. Skinspies are sophisticated as fuck. Call it selective evolution or organic-coding, I don't see any difference.

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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2017, 03:33:26 pm »
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?

The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.




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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2017, 03:41:41 pm »
The amount of understanding you'd have to have to create even a simulacrum of a mind in a functioning, artificially created, organic body capable of complex thoughts and reasoning, would be pretty immense. Skinspies are sophisticated as fuck. Call it selective evolution or organic-coding, I don't see any difference.

Indeed, this is kind of why I don't think the skin-spies are akin to robots.  It seems implausible (to me) that skin-spies were made from scratch.  Instead they are simply modified humans/whatever, that have been made for a focused purpose.  To me, that is a difference between what I would call a robot (wholly built) and a bred (or forcibly evolved) being.  We are definitely getting into some Westworld-esque shit here and I'm not sure I am articulate why I see a difference.

Perhaps I can use another poor dog analogy:

I wouldn't consider a rat terrier a robot, even though they were bred to hurt and kill rats.  They were just bred for an explicit purpose.  And so I would consider a skin-spy the same way.  The foundation of a skin-spies is already something preexisting (which is why I used "natural" in quotes) and is simply modified/bred for a different purpose.

There is no difference between a sentient robot and a sentient animal, except the hardware maybe.

I would tend to disagree, in the sense that there is both a hardware and software difference.  Unless we can discover that biological brains literally run on code, there is a definite difference between what we could call AI now-a-days and a biological mind.  Now, plausibly in the future a machine mind could fully emulate a biological one, but in the end, there is still some difference, however fleeting.  Is it a meaningful difference, by way of experience of the subject?  I don't know.  I only have a biological mind and could never know fully what a machine coded one would be like.

They are an intelligence created using technology. Not sure how you get more Artificial than that. But, as I mentioned initially, 'natural'?

Do you mean anything 'natural' must have been created by Ciphrang/Gods/Gods/Zero-God/Solitary God/[insert whatever metaphysical supernatural being ends up being correct]? If so, then any of the derived are unnatural/artificial.

Or does a 'natural' process have to arise from random change? ie Evolution? If so, sranc must be unnatural/artificial in that they were created systematically by the Inchoroi.

But the thing is, I don't think they created that intelligence themselves, simply corrupted/debased/repurposed an already existent one.  Like I said, the word "natural" is highly problematic and all I meant by it here was "already preexistant" without Inchoroi input.  Sranc certainly are artificial in the sense that they were designed, but that doesn't mean they are robots.  My point was a Sranc is artificial just as a dog is.  I don't think we want to take the leap that dogs are robots, right?

Quick aside, I'm pretty sure in this analogy the Wolf is the Nonman, the Dog Sranc. Similarly, dogs are dumbed down versions of wolves - if there is in fact any functional way to measure the intelligence of either (dogs/wolves I mean. I'm sure you could get a sranc and a Nonman to take an IQ test ;) )

That was just a shitty analogy by me, haha.  Really I meant it more as dogs would simply be different version of wolves though.

What's the difference between the two things you described - selective breeding or using the Bios to delete, and coding?
I don't see any difference. In either case, you are purposefully creating a set of instruction that are hard wired into the electronic bearing circuitry of the thing - be it a positronic brain or a wet brain. In either case you have neurons or circuits that fire in the pattern that you prefer, and don't fire in a way you don't prefer.

Organic tissues and DNA are no different from inorganic metals, organic wires (remember, organic refers to just about anything with Carbon in it, as long as it doesn't have any of the listed 'inorganic' atoms), and computer code.

If the artificial mind functioned the same way as a brain, that is, it was literally a 1:1 copy of an organic brain, then I think we have a valid questioning of "what is the difference, really?"

However, if you had a brain that functioned like computers do now, relying on binary code, I think the distinction is meaningful, even if in a indeterminate way.  Indeed, for all the advance AI we have now, it is usually pretty clear when output comes from an AI or from a real biological brain.

However, I don't think this is what the Bios/Tekne/Inchoroi are doing though.  I think they just take things preexistant and modify them for different aims.  Like what humans did to make dogs of wolves.  I hesitate in this case to call what you end up with a robot, even if it is at your beck-and-call.  Dogs often are subservient to humans, yet, again, I don't think we would consider dogs robots.  I don't see Sranc or even skin-spies outside that kind of logic, even if they are far more advanced (another problematic word, perhaps I should avoid) than dogs.
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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2017, 03:42:45 pm »
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?

The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.

Good point.  Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2017, 05:40:28 pm »
Well, first, what is sentience? What is consciousness? Unanswered, and currently afaik, unanswerable.

A computer is basically clumps of circuits firing through logic gates that are either On or Off, you called it binary code. The brain is the same thing. Clumps of neuron that are either firing or not, ie binary. Same thing imo. Code tells the circuits how/where to fire, whether its a person that write the code or macromolecules making up DNA.

Artificial Intelligence and Intelligence are functionally indistinguishable at the level of electricity. The thing carrying the current should be irrelevant.

And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.

We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.
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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2017, 05:52:10 pm »
And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.

We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.

At that point though, every living thing is a robot, so what is the point of distinction?

All the humans, all the Inchoroi and all the Nonmen are, so all the Sranc, Bashrags and Skin-Spies are, as are all the animals, every one of these are robots, exacting some biological code.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2017, 06:59:13 pm »
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?

The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.

Good point.  Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?

Also the place where Inri ascended to heaven. If one believes the entry in the glossary.

Well the whole series could be called the TTT, the series starts with Moe enacting it, although as he said he was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to him. PoN is everyone walking the TTT as is TAE.

The TTT came to Moe out of the darkness as well.

I'm back into full Moe is behind everything mode.


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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2017, 10:48:53 pm »
And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.

We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.

At that point though, every living thing is a robot, so what is the point of distinction?

That is, basically (in a loopy way that barely even makes sense to myself), the point I was trying to make. There is no real meaningful difference between any of these creatures, except that "some of them lack a soul", which I feel is going be to another implanted reader quasi-bias that gets turned on its head.

And let's not forget the apparent anomaly that was Simas the ensouled skin-spy. Kellhus (or Maithanet, can't remember) calls it an anomaly right off the bat, but in reality they couldn't possibly know if that's true, unless they're both part of the Consult which seems unlikely (for now). Even so, we'd have to assume it still a deliberate deception. Perhaps skin-spies and other Weapon Races are intentionally created without souls because a soul (as defined by whatever that means by Earwa's standards are) is basically just a big flashing light for denizens of the Outside. Maybe it's even a bad thing.

Ultimately, I really think we are underestimating how many steps ahead of everyone the Consult may be (possibly excluding Kellhus or Mimara, mayhaps). I don't think the Ark is going to be a ruin that's barely held together by a couple of borderline Alzheimer's victims and an incorporeal suprasoul thing, or whatever the fuck Shauriatas is. This is simply what they (and the author) want everyone (characters and readers) to think. Not unlike the Cishaurim's perception in the first trilogy. Or maybe not and we'll never really know.

ETA:
Not super relevant here, but I was going to add that I think there's a pretty good possibility of some internecine conflict within the Consult. The two Horns may hold two different factions of the Consult, if not in direct opposition then at least not in total unison (something along the lines of Sauron and Saruman, what with the two towers and all).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 08:33:27 am by The No-Mod »

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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 02:12:04 am »
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?

The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.

Good point.  Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?

Also the place where Inri ascended to heaven. If one believes the entry in the glossary.

Well the whole series could be called the TTT, the series starts with Moe enacting it, although as he said he was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to him. PoN is everyone walking the TTT as is TAE.

The TTT came to Moe out of the darkness as well.

I'm back into full Moe is behind everything mode.

But, The Torturer tried to create a blind spot to the gods........in a Mansion.....it didn't work.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 02:15:20 am »
Well, first, what is sentience? What is consciousness? Unanswered, and currently afaik, unanswerable.

A computer is basically clumps of circuits firing through logic gates that are either On or Off, you called it binary code. The brain is the same thing. Clumps of neuron that are either firing or not, ie binary. Same thing imo. Code tells the circuits how/where to fire, whether its a person that write the code or macromolecules making up DNA.

Artificial Intelligence and Intelligence are functionally indistinguishable at the level of electricity. The thing carrying the current should be irrelevant.

And, yes, I'm saying there is no difference between a rat terrier a robot in terms of thinking capacity. There's research into making organic computers, and research into making computers sentient. It goes both ways. The differences are superficial. Its all just atoms and electricity.

We're working from pretty different fundamental frames of mind. I don't think there will be much reconciliation here. But, if there is to be, we should focus on a smaller scope lol.

This is why I love this place. These little nuggets of interesting info I'd otherwise never know anything about. Science....love that shit. I just suck at it. 😎
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2017, 03:42:39 am »
Kellhus and Moe met outside the view of the eyes of the gods?

The whole point of the mansions seems to be to hide from the gods.

Good point.  Perhaps that is part of TTT though, hiding it from the gods as well?

Also the place where Inri ascended to heaven. If one believes the entry in the glossary.

Well the whole series could be called the TTT, the series starts with Moe enacting it, although as he said he was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to him. PoN is everyone walking the TTT as is TAE.

The TTT came to Moe out of the darkness as well.

I'm back into full Moe is behind everything mode.

But, The Torturer tried to create a blind spot to the gods........in a Mansion.....it didn't work.

Cause they took Sorweel there. Also Sorweel himself notes in the depths he went to a place the goddess couldn't see.

They were bid to dig into mountains in their earliest stories. The Torturer is just continuing this practice not initiating it.