The Therapeutic Value of Psychedelics and other drugs

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jamesA01

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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 06:39:31 pm »
Lol I intended that to be a short post.

Royce

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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 06:55:59 pm »
Many good questions Madness,and I can freestyle a bit myself,since I don`t know for sure what is the cause of this problem.About the drugs coming into the country,I guess it is a mix of corruption and also just people doing a bad job in catching the smugglers.I would not know about heroine being produced here,but many of the substitutes are(methadon,subotex).

In the area of rehabilitation I know there are many methods that simply do not work.First they have to ask for help,and then they have to wait until one of the institutions have room for them(sometimes several months).They stay in rehab for about 3 months,and they are just sent "home".It is easy to figure out what happens next.With no chance of getting a job or a decent place to stay,they end up contacting their old "friends" and they are back in hell.They wait awhile and then they go through the same shit again.This is mostly a problem for the senior junkies,who have absolutely no chance of building a new life,because they know nothing else I guess.Many of the younger ones only need rehab and they are fine.

I can`t speak for anyone but myself,but you do see certain attitudes among Norwegians that are not very flattering.A huge distrust to people not from here,and we enjoy this wealth so much that we are terrified of losing it.What to do then? The oil has spoiled our nation since the seventees,and that has led to a extreme focus on stuff(cars,big houses,boats) People without an education can get jobs that pay very well.So do think that this meaningless pursuit of material goods make many people feel totally empty,and if you add that the climate is very harsh for almost 8 months out of 12,people spend a lot of time inside drinking.People from warmer countries tend to describe Norwegians as cold and isolated,and they are correct to a certain degree.So I guess people are getting frustrated with the feel of the times yes.

Royce

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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 07:11:26 pm »
That was a lovely rant James :) I actually got a picture in my head of Bill Hicks yelling this at some dumbfounded crowd ;D

sciborg2

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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 02:08:28 am »
Interesting stuff James and Royce.

Will have more to say, ideally after a night's rest.

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Madness

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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2013, 10:18:49 pm »
Round three. I wrote an hour long response to james and Royce yesterday morning and now I'm stuck attempting to cheaply recreate the initial reaction. Forgive me if the following seems curt but I've written it almost three times now and am, obviously, rewriting and condensing the same statements over and again.

Basically, in a commercial society, the only thing going on is making money. Instead of accepting the pointlessness of existence, in recent years we've tried to organize an entire ideology around enjoyment. Enjoyment is supposed to be the purpose of life, and in many quarters, its the only permissible value and questioning gets you viciously attacked by aggressively passive sneering idiots.

Two propositions; three, really, but one is not so relevant.

Why should I accept the pointless of existence? Is enjoyment the only raison d'etre following the acceptance of this premise, as you write? Is it not permissible to offer embodying alternative reactions to life, the universe, and everything?

It's a consumerist religion. It functions by this weird kind of disavowed nihilism, like, consuming commodities is the true purpose of life, because enjoying them saves us from nihilism. I think the idea is we don't have to face nihilism if we keep consuming and perform our selves as consumers who have this supernatural power to change their reality through positive thinking. Who can attain this sense of self through hyper consumption and become celebrities. I'm theory wanking a bit here, it's probably just all appetite driven chaos.

Consumerism is a distraction. I don't even necessarily think people have to develop a nihilist perspective to desire to be distracted from the intimacy of being alive. Most people don't even get past thinking on mortality or eternity before immersing themselves in consumer culture. Is drug abuse a consequence of consumerism? Are they separate?

Enjoyment is a very stupid principle to try and organize a society around, because its basically covering over the harvesting of human brains, particularly proletarian ones, to turn them into rats moving coins around. They are exhausted and used up in over consumption. Recovery and work become moral issues, and the recovery industry is itself massive. The ideal citizen is one who is smoking and trying to quit at the same time. The managers of these addictions make a decent living, and of course the cash  ultimately flows upwards.

There will always be vested interests. It's not an excuse to me. We should still seek to embody alternatives.

For an organism addicted to oxygen, death is the only sobriety. So we are all being harvested by SOME commodity just to survive, things like food, the need for transportation and energy to live and clean yourself and get to work. If you've ever eaten a bag of crisps, you've consumed a slightly psychoactive substance.

Probably in full-on rant mode at this point but I wonder at the initial sentence. Can you clarify? I had previously highlighted that I see dividends in adopting an "everything ingested is a drug to your brain" perspective.

Drugs are a commodity that literally implants itself like a software code into our brains and has an extreme influence on our behavior. No matter what hobby you have or what you love in life, no one will put the sheer effort and work into getting their rocks off as much as a drug addict. No matter how much it destroys you, you will still do it, at all hours of the day and night with all resources available to you.

The addiction of drugs seems more a matter of spectrum. And certainly a matter of distinction. Perspectives like "alcohol isn't a drug" statistically account for a number of eventual addicts. Stereotypes about coffee or sugar aren't much better.

Also, what about obsession? They can satisfy the same criteria but sometimes result in positives (while potentially still killing those afflicted).

Drug dealers are like popstars, there's a new one every month and everyone loves them and claims to be their friend, then they get busted and a new one comes along. Cops mainly go after low level dealers, who are replaceable. Once you start going up the chain, you will eventually run into dock workers, transport workers, and eventually government officials and high capital. Without aiming to be condescending, obviously the law has to be imposed by a specific group of people with limited time and resources. Court rooms don't magically appear over night. A rookie cop is not going to be any match for the higher levels of narco capital, who have the funds and lawyers to make pursuing a case a shortcut to a lost career and being counter sued for defamation or whatever. Also, many cop evidence lockers are like candy stores for cops who come in and grab a bottle of seized vodka or a bootleg carton of cigs or a 9 bar of hash for their own personal pleasure. Cops need justifications for their budgets, they make their careers out of getting tax money to 'stop' (usually people on welfare) spending the tax money they were given on drugs. All they are really doing is keeping a lid on it when it threatens the smooth functioning of commerce and maybe helping the middle classes to stay a bit safer. In America the laws basically created an entire industry that sucks up massive budget slices to fight the war on drugs, which they neither win or do much good against.

+1 for descriptives. So there seems an almost symbiotic relationship? Is it an issue of conceptual organization, how we structure our education and social services rather than availability?

I think because drugs alter human neural functioning so much, we have an incredibly difficult time rationally dealing with them. They derange and addict us. We don't have the kind of control we think we have over them. However, it is necessary to wage some sort of prohibitory battle against them for the sake of society, even if this battle is never ultimately winnable.

There is a relationship between willpower and addiction but some drugs seem to negate that to different degrees - it isn't all or nothing, like you're describing.

If anyone wants to try and verify my hypothesis, go see how many people you can find that don't get unconsciously hysterical and/or angry when you question the concept of enjoyment too much.

Lol - upsetting people isn't a reason not to strive for difference.

Many good questions Madness,and I can freestyle a bit myself,since I don`t know for sure what is the cause of this problem.About the drugs coming into the country,I guess it is a mix of corruption and also just people doing a bad job in catching the smugglers.I would not know about heroine being produced here,but many of the substitutes are(methadon,subotex).

james has pretty decent descriptions of the status quo above. But I think the conversation should move towards the socioeconomic framework, which manifests these circumstances.

In the area of rehabilitation I know there are many methods that simply do not work.First they have to ask for help,and then they have to wait until one of the institutions have room for them(sometimes several months).They stay in rehab for about 3 months,and they are just sent "home".It is easy to figure out what happens next.With no chance of getting a job or a decent place to stay,they end up contacting their old "friends" and they are back in hell.They wait awhile and then they go through the same shit again.This is mostly a problem for the senior junkies,who have absolutely no chance of building a new life,because they know nothing else I guess.Many of the younger ones only need rehab and they are fine.

Well, I'm not one to refine Norway's social services ;)... but you've highlighted an at risk demographic and the need for mandatory out-patient counseling, at the very least.

I can`t speak for anyone but myself,but you do see certain attitudes among Norwegians that are not very flattering.A huge distrust to people not from here,and we enjoy this wealth so much that we are terrified of losing it.What to do then? The oil has spoiled our nation since the seventees,and that has led to a extreme focus on stuff(cars,big houses,boats) People without an education can get jobs that pay very well.So do think that this meaningless pursuit of material goods make many people feel totally empty,and if you add that the climate is very harsh for almost 8 months out of 12,people spend a lot of time inside drinking.People from warmer countries tend to describe Norwegians as cold and isolated,and they are correct to a certain degree.So I guess people are getting frustrated with the feel of the times yes.

The bold seems to reflect the consumerist outcry that james' has nicely articulated. But is it the only response?

Hrm. Sorry, good people, the first rendition of this post was on it. This is a weak substitute but I was compelled to respond as I would like to keep participating in this discussion.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:21:13 pm by Madness »
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jamesA01

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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2013, 01:45:07 am »
Madness, it's clear I need to take a breath and better consider my ramblings, because I am not making myself very clear.

I meant to say that enjoyment is pushed on us as the raison d'etre for existence but that it shouldn't be. I think that there's a kind of weird mystification going on, in which the culture tries to fool itself that it can stave off the threat of nihilism through adopting this attitude that consumerism saves us because it allows us to enjoy in spite of, and deny or defeat nihilism. IMO nihilism is part of the path we must embark on to liberate ourselves from being harvested as human commodities for the profit of the managers of our addictions and needs.

When I said "for an organism addicted to oxygen, death is the only form of sobriety possible" what I meant was that while we are alive we will always be addicted to something, and always be slightly intoxicated by the world. Death IMO is a preferable state of being, and it is the only absolute in our lives and the only permanent liberation. Much suffering has been caused by the refusal to accept this fact. But if we accept it, then we can develop both compassion and an armour of knowledge that allows us to resist the madness and much of the pointless suffering and violence in the world.

In the UK reporting negative, frustrated or generally nihilistic emotional states is grounds for psychiatric incarceration. Once there, you will eventually report the positive mental attitude the authorities want, or you won't leave.

The emotional realities of life, particularly for the proles, are too offensive to the dominant ideology of positive thinking for its own sake and absolute denial of the nihilistic implications of existence. We all have a duty to censor any expression of negativity with hope and a kind of wistful 'oh well it will all be ok if i just believe' type attitude.

This is demanded by a psychiatric establishment that over medicates people with SSRI's, drugs that have been proven to not work and were proven to involve faked or suppressed testing results, because such results would interfere with the profitability of the commodity. Therefore we can recognize the truth of our society, a commodity has more value than a human. Human life must be subservient to commodities, only the latter is permitted technical understanding, the former must perform an ideologically mandated personality. This personality is designed to obfuscate the pointlessness of existence, the zero sum nature of the economy, and the failure of positive thinking and consumer existentialism to liberate anyone. The non existent phantom of the self is imposed as an ideological reality that cannot be deviated from in order for the prole machine to falsely claim agency with no reference to his neuro-physical determinants. Therefore consumption becomes a moral issue, when it is bad for us we must blame ourselves, and we must always believe that we need only believe in goodness and we can do it right in the future.

We are forced to believe in a maladaptive enlightenment fallacy that stretches individual autonomy into the realms of the supernatural. We are supposed to be subjects that only encounter reality after causally deliberating over it. "Should I smoke or not, well, I know smoking is bad, so I will chose not to and resist it by my will power. I will exercise this resolve not to smoke at all times and nothing can overpower it." This is the same scam that makes people starve themselves because they think thats how a diet works. All they do is push the body into starvation mode, and they usually binge on sugar and fat once the brain has resorted to using up its own reserves in lieu of a sufficient fat intake. It's dangerous and damaging, but finding the truth is almost impossible in the noisey media deluge of junk science and hypo manic idiots advertising scams and faking positive consumer feedback on their websites.

Instead of understanding the mechanical processes causing our diet and sobriety fails, we think of it in terms of guilt and discipline! That to me is evil. We think we can conjure attitudes out of thin air that will override reality itself.

Of course, this arises because we don't have conscious access to such processes, our introspection and consciousness only provides the faintest data about what is going into our bodies and what the brain is doing. The brain produces thoughts, but we are never permitted to understand these thoughts as emanating from anything other than a supernatural construct - the self, which doesn't really exist!

Only a techno scientific understanding of ourselves as machines can help us. We must understand the truth of what we input into our bodies, and realize that this creates data which online communities can help us interpret. Only science can save us from becoming rats moving coins around the urban cage to get a cheap and dangerous dopamine hit.

Your friendly neighbourhood crack dealer is a neuro hacker. He pushes a product that installs code that prompts the brain to replicate the code by inputting more of the source material. We are all being factory farmed for profit, as and by commodities.

I think you understand that we can't simply resist this with prohibition. The only way out is through. Smarter drugs - an end to the mystical hedonistic attitude that dominates drug culture - a sub culture of neuro modification, health, healing, performance and expansion. We can dream of a future in which we develop new hardware for the brain and body. We can use it to meditate, for security, to play the financial markets, for performativity, or just to experience novel neurophysiologies. But we must resist the demand to use it to exhaust and damage ourselves in addiction.

Someone who has been made obese by junk food, or given diabetes and massive weight gain by SSRI's they don't need, someone who smokes themselves until disease and death, who becomes alcoholic, all are victims of their brains being hacked. Their suffering can at least show us the necessity to take control of our own neuro chemistry. To tend to our brains like a garden or a machine. To monitor and control what is inputted and record and compare the data of the effects. To develop a sub culture of technical modifcation, through software (memes, substances, experiences) and hardware (implants, tcds machines, new types of jewellry/accessories etc.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 01:52:36 am by jamesA01 »

jamesA01

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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2013, 01:55:49 am »
I will just add one more thing, I personally have only the faintest scientific understanding. But I at least realize that only it can truly help me. Hopefully we are moving towards a culture where this is generally understood and new and cool scientific sub cultures can replace some of the very boring and dangerous ones we currently have.

I'm somewhat pleased by the fact I recognize that no amount of philosophy, hipsterism, mysticism, art or whatever is going to really do all that much for me, even though those were my main concerns in the earlier parts of my life. So I've made some sort of progress I guess.

Royce

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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2013, 07:07:25 am »
James posted while I was writing mine,and I was in a lazy mood,so I just posted mine without reading his first :).I feel that this is not a discussion anymore,it is more a question of how can we cope with the so called meaningless existence of ours.This has turned into rants which are extremely subjective in nature.Although I agree with much of what James is saying,it is also just a subjective understanding of the nature of reality.There are tons of those out there.Which of those are true?Either none or everyone.No objective understanding exists,so we are left with sharing our subjective ones I guess.

Quote
The bold seems to reflect the consumerist outcry that james' has nicely articulated. But is it the only response?

No it is not the only response,but it is the one that is most visible,and because it is so visible,it makes sense to use that as a reason.
Who knows what is going on inside billions of brains? IMO I think this goes much deeper than consumerism.

One way to look at it is that we have distanced ourselves more and more from what we know we are,namely nature.Maybe that makes us sick,and we behave irrationally and create this unsane civilization because we have to destroy,violate and consume the planet the keep the machine going.To me,getting out of the city worked for me.Surrounded by wilderness and animals,I have again found the peace I need to cope with existence.Am I running away? Maybe,but I needed to do something,or else I would literally loose my mind.To be part of a society is like taking part in a game.You choose to participate.There are people who chose not to participate(ascetics),and they exist just as much people who play the game does.Maybe there are ways the western civilization can be "saved" but I am not hopeful.

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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2013, 04:06:25 pm »
Sorry for the ranting, you should see how bad I get IRL.

Although, in my defence, walls of text are at least a slightly healthier release than getting stoned everyday!

Royce

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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2013, 04:23:46 pm »
Don`t be sorry James ;) You have a genuine passion for this,and that is very healthy :)

jamesA01

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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2013, 04:29:27 pm »
One way to look at it is that we have distanced ourselves more and more from what we know we are,namely nature.Maybe that makes us sick,and we behave irrationally and create this unsane civilization because we have to destroy,violate and consume the planet the keep the machine going.To me,getting out of the city worked for me.Surrounded by wilderness and animals,I have again found the peace I need to cope with existence.Am I running away? Maybe,but I needed to do something,or else I would literally loose my mind.To be part of a society is like taking part in a game.You choose to participate.There are people who chose not to participate(ascetics),and they exist just as much people who play the game does.Maybe there are ways the western civilization can be "saved" but I am not hopeful.

Royce, I've seen the attitude you have articulated quite a lot recently and I've always been somewhat skeptical of it.

However, I'd agree with you that getting out of the city, getting 'back to nature' etc. is not only an extremely healthy and therapeutic thing to do, it's probably one of the easiest ways to heal someones nerves and psyche and prevent a breakdown.

But I still find this idea quite regressive. Ecologists like Timothy Morton would criticize this because they say there is no such thing as nature. I agree with that. I also don't think there is anyway to 'go back' to a simpler way of living, or that there is any merit in doing so beyond a temporary release from modern pressures.

As I said in my last post, the only way out is through. Slowing down, simplifying, trying to reconnect with nature - these are not options available to the majority of people. I actually think the drive to reconnect with nature is a terrible mistake. There is no organic, wholesome relationship between nature and humanity. Nature wants us dead and it wins 100% of the time. The idea of stripping back modern, artificial technological implements can only provide a temporary relief.

I think that only we moderns could dream of a benevolent and maternal nature, precisely because we have been so severed from it. Precisely because we have been extricated from the 'nature red in tooth and claw' scenario for so long.

My vision is a little different. I'd rather live in a city - i'd rather aspire for the money to install soundproofing or use white noise from headphones. I'd rather wait and see what audial implants and devices will be developed to help spare us the ceaseless noise of modern life. I'd rather make Soylent or set up some sort of lab in my apartment to produce my own food. 3d printers and some sort of system that can grow ingredients from bacteria or base materials? That is more promising than tilling the fields. A city run on sustainable energy, or one of the fusion reactors that are currently being developed - for poor people, city life maximizes opportunity (as well as risk).

I fully expect that in decades to come, solar panels, with their constant performance breakthroughs, will be cheap and powerful enough for many individuals to create decades worth of energy for themselves. I think I have a better chance, economically and socially, at plunging head first into all technology has to offer, rather than trying to find some distance from it. Yes, it causes serious nervous illnesses, exhaustion etc. but rather than retreating from that, we should see all these things as engineering problems.

You don't need nature because we are already so close to technically replicating all the functions nature provides - free heat, energy from the sun, soil and space to grow crops etc. with small scale personal technology. Certainly, the life you speak of has tremendous merits, however I worry about the regressive tendencies that sometimes manifest within it.

What does it mean to go back to nature other than to seek free but rapidly obsolescing sources of sustenance and energy?

Royce

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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2013, 05:29:19 pm »
Quote
But I still find this idea quite regressive. Ecologists like Timothy Morton would criticize this because they say there is no such thing as nature. I agree with that. I also don't think there is anyway to 'go back' to a simpler way of living, or that there is any merit in doing so beyond a temporary release from modern pressures.

I am not sure what he means by nature being nonexistent,but I will check this guy out.I do not feel that I am "going back" to nature,more that I am moving away from fake people,noise,polluted air,aggressive tendencies,temptations on every corner and so on.I still have connections in the nearest city,and I am there quite a lot.I just enjoy leaving when I am done :).

I agree that nature is not all fairytale beauty and all,it is indeed dangerous and hostile.You find that everywhere,there is no escape from that.Again I must point out that this is something that works for me,it is not a global solution to anything.

Quote
My vision is a little different. I'd rather live in a city - i'd rather aspire for the money to install soundproofing or use white noise from headphones. I'd rather wait and see what audial implants and devices will be developed to help spare us the ceaseless noise of modern life. I'd rather make Soylent or set up some sort of lab in my apartment to produce my own food. 3d printers and some sort of system that can grow ingredients from bacteria or base materials? That is more promising than tilling the fields. A city run on sustainable energy, or one of the fusion reactors that are currently being developed - for poor people, city life maximizes opportunity (as well as risk).

This sounds very good,but I guess we will have to try and fail for many years before we can replace nature with technology.The kind of society you so brilliantly describes in earlier posts,is a society I gladly leave behind.Maybe I will move back when these technologies you speak of turn out to improve the life of humans in cities.


Royce

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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2013, 07:45:21 pm »
I forgot to mention that I am not at all against technological inventions that improve aspects of existence,and make us less dependent on destroying the planet.I am not at all saying that everyone should start walking backwards,but are things better as they are now?

The fundamental core of your previous posts suggest that our civilization is heading in a wrong direction(consumerism/enjoyment).Do you see that changing anytime soon?We now have enjoyment right in front of our noses 24/7 with gadgets in numerable forms.I can`t really see there is going to arrive any kind of global awakening where everyone realizes that this hunger for enjoyment is wrong.The reason for that is that most people do not agree with you.They love this lifestyle more than anything else.Comfort is the new drug.

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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2013, 02:57:10 pm »
Apologies in advance for the quote/response ratio. I like to be clear as I can manage.

I meant to say that enjoyment is pushed on us as the raison d'etre for existence but that it shouldn't be. I think that there's a kind of weird mystification going on, in which the culture tries to fool itself that it can stave off the threat of nihilism through adopting this attitude that consumerism saves us because it allows us to enjoy in spite of, and deny or defeat nihilism. IMO nihilism is part of the path we must embark on to liberate ourselves from being harvested as human commodities for the profit of the managers of our addictions and needs.

Are the people constituting culture, by whatever distinct divisions we want to draw, aware of this? Is nihilism even a natural progression? I'm something of an agnostic myself, though I try to resist classification. And, in the case of consumerism, existing participation doesn't strike me as a particularly convincing argument not to attempt difference.

When I said "for an organism addicted to oxygen, death is the only form of sobriety possible" what I meant was that while we are alive we will always be addicted to something, and always be slightly intoxicated by the world. Death IMO is a preferable state of being, and it is the only absolute in our lives and the only permanent liberation. Much suffering has been caused by the refusal to accept this fact. But if we accept it, then we can develop both compassion and an armour of knowledge that allows us to resist the madness and much of the pointless suffering and violence in the world.

There is a thread ;).

Death being the only absolute, I want to live - despite being adamant about denying immortality beyond a couple centuries.

The only other consensus I hear on this planet is that people live... lives were lived before us and lives will be lived after and so, for me, every effort must be made to make living better. And I'm not suggesting an ineffable better at some point in the future, I'm talking better than now cause everyone can agree that now has become truly ridiculous. We waste an incredible amount of our only real bartering chip (our brain) as a species to maintain this degree of apathy.

Which, brings us back to point and task. You've qualified 'intoxication' as a natural state (which reflects a minority literature suggesting that intoxication is a 'drive' like thirst or hunger). I've responded that at a certain level of description all interaction between the brain and the environment enacts chemical and electrical transmission like any other conscious state, including taking drugs (the argument continues that drugs add or detract something but so does sustenance, fear, sleep - if the state of the brain is chemical and electrical, changing it by those mechanisms is still a state of the brain?)

A detriment to a single human is a loss to us all. As a culture and society we embody and enact the reactions to the reality of living.

In the UK reporting negative, frustrated or generally nihilistic emotional states is grounds for psychiatric incarceration. Once there, you will eventually report the positive mental attitude the authorities want, or you won't leave.

The emotional realities of life, particularly for the proles, are too offensive to the dominant ideology of positive thinking for its own sake and absolute denial of the nihilistic implications of existence. We all have a duty to censor any expression of negativity with hope and a kind of wistful 'oh well it will all be ok if i just believe' type attitude.

That sounds particularly difficult in the UK but I feel that "censoring" attitude is prevalent in the Western Empire. But there are plenty of immediate cultural distinctions that quickly transcend that attitude in communication as well.

This is demanded by a psychiatric establishment that over medicates people with SSRI's ... Therefore consumption becomes a moral issue, when it is bad for us we must blame ourselves, and we must always believe that we need only believe in goodness and we can do it right in the future.

Vested interests and polarizing propoganda. It's not easy to do right by ourselves and it takes effortful practice. But it is on us to be informed and participate. There definitely should be a involved society, which constantly re-prioritizes how it wants to facilitate its constituents.

We are forced to believe in a maladaptive enlightenment fallacy that stretches individual autonomy into the realms of the supernatural. We are supposed to be subjects that only encounter reality after causally deliberating over it ... It's dangerous and damaging, but finding the truth is almost impossible in the noisey media deluge of junk science and hypo manic idiots advertising scams and faking positive consumer feedback on their websites.

We're definitely fed a certain perception - but we can fight for change, neh? I'm perfectly capable of believing that I'm back to black when my mortal form passes and still wanting to make a difference in the living realm while I'm here.

Instead of understanding the mechanical processes causing our diet and sobriety fails, we think of it in terms of guilt and discipline! That to me is evil. We think we can conjure attitudes out of thin air that will override reality itself.

Distinctions, nothing more. Disseminate clearer communication.

Of course, this arises because we don't have conscious access to such processes, our introspection and consciousness only provides the faintest data about what is going into our bodies and what the brain is doing. The brain produces thoughts, but we are never permitted to understand these thoughts as emanating from anything other than a supernatural construct - the self, which doesn't really exist!

I apologize as I strive to respond practically. I feel you're asking deeper questions...

Only a techno scientific understanding of ourselves as machines can help us. We must understand the truth of what we input into our bodies, and realize that this creates data which online communities can help us interpret. Only science can save us from becoming rats moving coins around the urban cage to get a cheap and dangerous dopamine hit.

Hrm. Science is constituted of real people with vested interests. And it's on the wrong side of a socioeconomic class distinction for most of us.

I think you understand that we can't simply resist this with prohibition. The only way out is through. Smarter drugs - an end to the mystical hedonistic attitude that dominates drug culture - a sub culture of neuro modification, health, healing, performance and expansion. We can dream of a future in which we develop new hardware for the brain and body. We can use it to meditate, for security, to play the financial markets, for performativity, or just to experience novel neurophysiologies. But we must resist the demand to use it to exhaust and damage ourselves in addiction.

I think you might fixated on a single dimension of the problem. It just isn't this simply.

Someone who has been made obese by junk food, or given diabetes and massive weight gain by SSRI's they don't need, someone who smokes themselves until disease and death, who becomes alcoholic, all are victims of their brains being hacked. Their suffering can at least show us the necessity to take control of our own neuro chemistry. To tend to our brains like a garden or a machine. To monitor and control what is inputted and record and compare the data of the effects. To develop a sub culture of technical modifcation, through software (memes, substances, experiences) and hardware (implants, tcds machines, new types of jewellry/accessories etc.)

Again, are you railing against the plebletariot's ignorance, the complacency of experts (family doctors, Lay's Chips, the Breweries, Starbucks, Kollisch/Hofmann), the legislation that makes them all possible, or Hammurabi's Code in the first place (by which I just meant codified laws of civilization and their philosophic necessity to keep us from the worst of us?)

This has turned into rants which are extremely subjective in nature.

While I don't think we've strayed all that much, I do think that the subjective straying keeps the conversation rich in profited wisdom. Greater chance of revelation ;). Plus, is this not how all societies affect change, by a handful of individuals on the intraweb ::)?

Although I agree with much of what James is saying,it is also just a subjective understanding of the nature of reality.There are tons of those out there.Which of those are true?Either none or everyone.No objective understanding exists,so we are left with sharing our subjective ones I guess.

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The bold seems to reflect the consumerist outcry that james' has nicely articulated. But is it the only response?

No it is not the only response,but it is the one that is most visible,and because it is so visible,it makes sense to use that as a reason.
Who knows what is going on inside billions of brains? IMO I think this goes much deeper than consumerism.

We're all aspects of the phenomenon in question. james is, in fact, offering a sample perspective of the kind of mind that turns towards satiation in unadvised dietary choices or medicating chemically. To approach this specific crux from a different angle, what are other alternative explanations as to why people turn to drugs in the first place - if not wrestling with some kind of existential angst that james describes (whether it's an actually embodied mindset is a completely different story - few can adopt the sincerity of Peter Stormare in The Big Lebowski: "We’re Nihilists. We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing.")

One way to look at it is that we have distanced ourselves more and more from what we know we are,namely nature.Maybe that makes us sick,and we behave irrationally and create this unsane civilization because we have to destroy,violate and consume the planet the keep the machine going.To me,getting out of the city worked for me.Surrounded by wilderness and animals,I have again found the peace I need to cope with existence.Am I running away? Maybe,but I needed to do something,or else I would literally loose my mind.To be part of a society is like taking part in a game.You choose to participate.There are people who chose not to participate(ascetics),and they exist just as much people who play the game does.Maybe there are ways the western civilization can be "saved" but I am not hopeful.

I applaud you, Royce, and many in my country adopt the same perspective towards the same end. But not participating isn't an option for me. The game is everywhere now. You can flee to the mountains but damn sure the world is going to come knocking before long.

Royce, I've seen the attitude you have articulated quite a lot recently and I've always been somewhat skeptical of it.

However, I'd agree with you that getting out of the city, getting 'back to nature' etc. is not only an extremely healthy and therapeutic thing to do, it's probably one of the easiest ways to heal someones nerves and psyche and prevent a breakdown.

...

we should see all these things as engineering problems.

You don't need nature because we are already so close to technically replicating all the functions nature provides - free heat, energy from the sun, soil and space to grow crops etc. with small scale personal technology. Certainly, the life you speak of has tremendous merits, however I worry about the regressive tendencies that sometimes manifest within it.

What does it mean to go back to nature other than to seek free but rapidly obsolescing sources of sustenance and energy?

I forgot to mention that I am not at all against technological inventions that improve aspects of existence,and make us less dependent on destroying the planet.I am not at all saying that everyone should start walking backwards,but are things better as they are now?

Aren't you discussing aspects of the same proposal? It is rare that someone in a self-sufficient living condition relies on a balance of technology and nature - harvesting solar energy seems the exemplar of what you are describing, james, that technologies should work to be displace relatively little that exists already?

Anyone check out Earthships? Great documentary to go along with it.

We now have enjoyment right in front of our noses 24/7 with gadgets in numerable forms.I can`t really see there is going to arrive any kind of global awakening where everyone realizes that this hunger for enjoyment is wrong.The reason for that is that most people do not agree with you.They love this lifestyle more than anything else.Comfort is the new drug.

Isn't it satisfying to freestyle alternatives, though? The world can be different. And, in my opinion, practically identifying the whys and the wherefores of the way things are is one of a number of places to being seeking the way things could be.

I have to cut this a little short, though there wasn't much else in the final posts by either of you, which compelled me to respond.

I have no issue with continue the discussion as trends but, though it is inextricably intwined in the conversation for qualify why people turn to drugs, I might make a separate topic.
The Existential Scream
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Royce

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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2013, 07:14:43 am »
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We're all aspects of the phenomenon in question. james is, in fact, offering a sample perspective of the kind of mind that turns towards satiation in unadvised dietary choices or medicating chemically. To approach this specific crux from a different angle, what are other alternative explanations as to why people turn to drugs in the first place - if not wrestling with some kind of existential angst that james describes (whether it's an actually embodied mindset is a completely different story - few can adopt the sincerity of Peter Stormare in The Big Lebowski: "We’re Nihilists. We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing.")

I think there can be many reasons why people turn to drugs,and not all of them are destructive.It can easily end up being destructive of course,depending on the drug of choice.

Maybe a healthy and curious attitude toward altered states? It does not have to end up being something destructive.I know people who have learned much about themselves through various drugs,and ended up being a better person because of it.Many people just want to experience as much as possible in their rather short lifespan,and various drugs provide plenty of interesting experiences.

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I applaud you, Royce, and many in my country adopt the same perspective towards the same end. But not participating isn't an option for me. The game is everywhere now. You can flee to the mountains but damn sure the world is going to come knocking before long.

Yes,the game is everywhere,but I did not move because I did not want to participate.Maybe just reduce the level of involvement a bit :)
You have to isolate yourself on grand scale if you are to escape the tentacles of the system :) And that is not really the point either.My head just works better when I am surrounded by the beauty of nature,instead of the worst that man can offer.

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Aren't you discussing aspects of the same proposal? It is rare that someone in a self-sufficient living condition relies on a balance of technology and nature - harvesting solar energy seems the exemplar of what you are describing, james, that technologies should work to be displace relatively little that exists already

I guess I must sound like a hypocrite in certain aspects,and I think I might be a bit hypocritical,because I do want that balance of technology and nature.

I also feel I have to point out that I am not self-sufficient at all.I am planning to set up a little greenhouse to grow vegetables in.Although ascetics fascinate me,I am not quite there yet :) It is the surroundings that are key for me.Being out here,and still be able to talk to you guys is the perfect balance I need at the moment ;)