[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's larger presence

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Stip

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« on: July 30, 2017, 01:05:05 pm »
I had to go looking for a message board after the end of TUC, and this has been great reading so far.  I have a question (well I have a ton of questions, but one at a time) I am hoping the careful readers of this forum can help with.

I will pay closer attention on my next reread but what has the larger presence of Ajokli been in the series so far.  He had a relationship with Kelomas, but im not sure of its nature.  And was his possession of kellhus at the end of TUC by kellhus's design, and if so to what end?

Thanks!

[Wilshire Edit: Added [TUC Spoilers] tag]
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 12:51:01 pm by Wilshire »

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 03:47:09 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Stip :).

Ajokli's been brought up as the Trickster God, as sometimes companion and/or foil to the Gods, married to Gierra, the God of a Religious Sect of Prostitutes.

I personally think the bait & switch Bakker layered in TAE using Kelmomas' understanding of Ajokli and his Narindar to fool us regarding Ajokli's attentions is fairly obvious (in hindsight) and brilliant. I also don't think Kellhus knew about his impending possession by Ajokli but I'm in minority on that, I think.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 03:51:18 pm by Madness »
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Spooky

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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 04:04:34 pm »
My reading of Ajolki's master-stroke is the same as yours. Kellhus knew he was making a "deal" and protected from the usual expected betrayals.  The Conditioned Ground of the Golden Room wasn't just made by the Mutilated but by Ajolki. He Four-Horned God is incarnate (in a way) and here.

The Golden Room was Likely one of the few (or perhaps only) places on the planet that one of the hundred soul-thirsting gods of the outside, and they all thirst no matter how benign their portfolio, could cross the dimensional border. Endless torment forced the worlds drawn close and enabled even the most powerful to cross.

An Inverse Avatar, a fulfillment of Prophecy, a Revelations like moment.

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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 12:39:09 pm »
The Golden Room was Likely one of the few (or perhaps only) places on the planet that one of the hundred soul-thirsting gods of the outside, and they all thirst no matter how benign their portfolio, could cross the dimensional border. Endless torment forced the worlds drawn close and enabled even the most powerful to cross.

My bet is only. I think the secret to the Decapitants Glossary entry is that Ajokli convinced Kellhus to try and pull the stunt at Mengedda but that Topos was insufficient.
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 12:45:22 pm »
My bet is only. I think the secret to the Decapitants Glossary entry is that Ajokli convinced Kellhus to try and pull the stunt at Mengedda but that Topos was insufficient.

That was my initial thought too, but it is also plausible that he was not inhabited by Ajokli just yet.  Could could have been testing how a topos would effect him switching (which he might need to do in the case something went wrong).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 01:50:00 pm »
I don't know. I'd have to check the entry for a deeper reading but if I had the Vision whispering sweet, fucked-up nothings to me and the resulting suggestion is that I remove my own head and continuously switch it for a Demon's while laughing, I'd have to imagine that I'm quite mad and not acting of my own accord ;).
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 02:00:37 pm »
Maybe Kellhus was at Mengedda practicing switching heads so that he could do it at will and without having to physically remove his own head? Or maybe that's just the only way Kellhus can get high (i.e. out of his head wasted).

Also; the reader assumes the decapitants are demons - but can you bring a ciphrang's head back from Outside? - that doesn't really jive with the way we see Ciphrang manifest into the World via the Daimos either...  What if the decapitants come from humans with Ciphrang souls (i.e. like Kosoter, Serwa and C'naiur - the people Mimara identifies as Ciphrang rather than merely damned)?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:28:08 am by Cüréthañ »
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themerchant

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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 05:06:40 pm »
Before entering the Ark, Malowebi notices that Kellhus tarries for a while singing unknown sorcery, which he just assumes are wards, could be the Daimos or something else.

littlegrice

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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 02:36:48 am »
My bet is only. I think the secret to the Decapitants Glossary entry is that Ajokli convinced Kellhus to try and pull the stunt at Mengedda but that Topos was insufficient.

That was my initial thought too, but it is also plausible that he was not inhabited by Ajokli just yet.  Could could have been testing how a topos would effect him switching (which he might need to do in the case something went wrong).

What if the Heqad on a Pole is actually another Decapitant that Kellhus hid somewhere in the Outside?  That whole Head on a Pole thing gets me wrapped around the axle every time I try to tear it apart for some bit of substantive information.  The only thing I think I see, now that you posted this and got my brain moving, is that at one point one of the Demons tries to take him, but Kellhus said he can't.  Because of the Head of a Pole Behind him.  He uses it somehow to transport himself to a place WHERE HE IS ALWAYS HIDDEN, but always watched.  Hidden, perhaps, from Ajokli?
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

Inchoboi

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2017, 05:41:38 am »
My bet is only. I think the secret to the Decapitants Glossary entry is that Ajokli convinced Kellhus to try and pull the stunt at Mengedda but that Topos was insufficient.

That was my initial thought too, but it is also plausible that he was not inhabited by Ajokli just yet.  Could could have been testing how a topos would effect him switching (which he might need to do in the case something went wrong).

What if the Heqad on a Pole is actually another Decapitant that Kellhus hid somewhere in the Outside?  That whole Head on a Pole thing gets me wrapped around the axle every time I try to tear it apart for some bit of substantive information.  The only thing I think I see, now that you posted this and got my brain moving, is that at one point one of the Demons tries to take him, but Kellhus said he can't.  Because of the Head of a Pole Behind him.  He uses it somehow to transport himself to a place WHERE HE IS ALWAYS HIDDEN, but always watched.  Hidden, perhaps, from Ajokli?

"They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart - for unlike the Countless Dead his heart beats still.
His heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you."

and

"Because you fear not damnation.
Because there is a head on a pole behind you."

I think it's strongly implied that it isn't just the head on a pole that keeps him safe, because there's also a beating heart. He's chilling out there in the general Outside and is assaulted by Ciphrang, but they can't hurt him since he's alive, so his thoughts/emotions/memories (his subjective experience) are bound to that head on that pole, but only because he's alive. Malowebi is a Decapitant, we can see that he retains his "self", his thoughts/emotions/memories, subjective experience. He (or at least the parts of his "self" that he is aware of) can't see any Sons/Ciphrang. It's likely that if Khellus is a Decapitant, and Malowebi's condition is how being a Decapitant works, then Khellus' Soul/Self is currently cut off from (being able to interact with) the World, as we see Malowebi.

TUC gives us a lot of neat stuff in the Glossary.

On the Outside-
"The many regions of the Outside then represent diminishing levels of objectivity, where circumstances yield more and more to desire. This, he claims, is what defines the 'spheres of dominance' of Gods and demons."

"The more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires."

Meanwhile in TGO Head-on-a-Pole scene:

"So he seizes the lake and the thousand babes and the void and the massing-descending Sons and the lamentations-that-are-honey, and he rips them about the pole, transforms here into here, this-place-inside-where-you-sit-now, where he has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy..."

Wherever this place is that Khellus has always hidden and watched, there are Other Sons, whereas in the general Outside there are just Sons. So presumably, Other Sons = Gods, Sons = Ciphrangs. One thing about this that troubles me somewhat is that if individual powerful entities have their own special bubbles of reality, why is Khellus shown popping into his "here where he has always hidden/watched" which we could assume is his own bubble of reality, yet Ajokli (presumably; the most crocodilian [Other] Son) is there, and apparently so are other Other Sons... so where is this place, and why aren't these guys all in their own bubbles? Why are we only given Ajokli's dialogue with Khellus, and why does he seem to speak for the other Gods?

We pondered you, says the most crocodilian of the Sons.
"But I have never been here."
You said this very thing,

It's hard for me to keep it short and simple, yet also hard for me to explain my thoughts because there's so much to try to grasp and explain, but my attempts at understanding are something like this.

When Khell "goes to the Outside" the Gods having already seen it ("we pondered you") could imply that they just always knew it happened since it eventually was going to, which they would.
But there's the "always hidden, always waited" and "this-place-inside-where-you-sit-now", which I interpret as in Khellus' own mind, which is probably as close as a living person in the World can get to the outside (and he sees, though his eyes have rolled into his brow). The Daimos deals with agencies from the Outside. If Khellus ever once used the Daimos to "be in the Outside" that doesn't mean that he literally went somewhere, but rather he summoned it into his mind in some manner.

I want to throw a comment out there that the Hundred, as Principles according to the Nonmen, sound like they make fitting "Aspects" for the million-souled God/The-God (I do believe that "all souls" belong to The God). The Gods/Principles seem to be simply parts/aspects of nature/existence in our World that to us seem to be sufficiently important or intrinsic to our lives and functions that our collective belief in these Principles creates the "agencies" in the Outside - whether there are actual "souls/identities/entities" which somehow take up the mantle of "being" such a Principle, like Anthropomorphized War, Hope, Deceit etc.  I guess could be up for debate, since we have language and intentions from at least Ajokli and Yatwer, I find it likely to be the case.

The Glossary gives us
"elhusioli - The daimos of excess. As per standard Kiunnat metaphysics, souls directly move other souls, impart the imprints of daimos upon another daimos. Some, such as terror or enthusiasm, are set apart for the dramatic nature of their effects."

We also learn that according to Acenjis, once again referring to the Outside:
"...argues that it is the relation between subject and object, desire and reality, that underwrites the structure of existence."

We learn from the "Consult Dunyain"(-riatis) that the No-God is a device which collapses Subject and Object.

I think Khellus Daimos'd any number Outside-based agencies using the "elhusioli". I'd imagine you can't really imprint much of your own daimos onto a sufficiently powerful Outside entity, so I assume Khell has imprinted himself with the daimos of some number of the Gods (perhaps all?) - the two I find most likely and who I believe the Decapitants to be, are Ajokli and Onkis. In lieu of any real evidence to include Onkis in this, I feel like the two key things Khellus is most known for are instilling hope and lying his ass off.

If Khellus was able with his various abilities to deduce the way the Outside works and also the way the No-God works, its plausible that he's literally trying to re-write the Hundred like he says they're doing at some point in TUC. How exactly that works, I couldn't tell ya... but if Subject & Object collapsing opens up an opportunity to re-write reality, this is a Dunyain's chance to start scribbling.

I'm full of crackpots obviously, still just grasping. I've never really liked the early big Moe theories but when I look at Cnaiur and how hateful he is and how Ajokli just seemingly took him over or ascended from him, it makes me wonder.
Was that Ajokli's birth, Cnaiur ascending to become Ajokli?
I can't help but wonder how much of his hatefulness is Conditioned? How far back does Moe's manipulation go, how much did he know about the Consult, how much did he know about the No-God? At the bottom of it... how far did Moe's Thousandfold Thought really go? Surely he wouldn't give away all of what he'd learned if he planned to kill Khell and proceed as his Thought dictated. He would be EVEN LESS LIKELY to divulge all information if his Thought did indeed see all the way to the end - attaining the Absolute - and yet required Khellus to do all the things we've seen him do, as Khellus could, even necessarily WOULD usurp the Thought from his father just as he now believes he has.

Let's not let it slip past us that Iyokus was blinded, yet remained able to practice the Daimos. I doubt Bakker would blind this man for no good reason, eh?

The Tapestry is also interesting, Bakker tells us Khellus doesn't know its significance (or purpose, paraphrasing). I have to assume Moe does... and can't help but wonder if Khell's "old man" will awake behind the eyes of this babe.

WOW, that's a lot of crap. I apologize for the wall-of-textiness. Can't wait to see what other people have interpreted so far! It seems clear that SOMEONE, likely an Anasurimbor, will become the new God-of-Gods when all is said and done if such is possible (and I'm not sure that it is, or if it is, that one would particularly find it enjoyable to simply "be"; I THINK that I believe the God of Gods is just the totality of everything), and if not or in addition to someone becoming the God of Gods, I'm gonna bet that if the 100 were people at some point before becoming Gods we'll see (the most obvious examples) a new Mother of Birth in Mimara, a new Whore in Esmenet... and if Moe is the guy who "dunnit" and becomes or fails to become the God of Gods then I can see Khellus being the new Ajokli. 

Becoming one of the Hundred might be the "highest tier" of existence attainable without being a blind, "sleeping" God of Gods/totality of existence. I'm not sure at all what significance the Judging Eye has as of yet, but if it's The God watching then it demonstrates an interest in existence and more-over, AGENCY, which I would have assumed The God (being asleep/shattered into a million ensouled beings) does not have. If Mimara's baby (as a "new soul", Moe's, or Khellus') is going to somehow ascend to become the God of Gods, it may have been there to witness it's own birth? Inasmuch as it could - the Eye was blinded upon looking at Mim's belly. However, we know she still has the Eye. Can the eye never see the baby? If that's the case, would it be because it would collapse Sub & Ob like the No-God?

Thoughts? I don't even know WHERE TO BEGIN when it comes to Nonmen and Imimorul; Seswatha; Progenitors/Ark/Inchoroi, and a thousand thousand other things.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 06:41:49 am by Inchoboi »

littlegrice

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 06:26:16 am »
Awesome response...like I said, though....wrapped around the axle, am I right?   :D
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 12:35:33 pm »
Lol, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Inchoboi :)!

Let's not let it slip past us that Iyokus was blinded, yet remained able to practice the Daimos. I doubt Bakker would blind this man for no good reason, eh?

Well, I mean... our boy Xinemus though... Iyokus needed to pay, especially since Kellhus can't actually heal.
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2018, 02:43:55 pm »
Amazing post, Inchoboi. I wish you had posted more :).

I'm not sure there's much to respond there lol - you've got a lot buttoned up, but if you're seeking something specific please clarify, if you are still around.

The potential Avatars of the Gods, Kellhus/Cnaiur/Esmenet/Mimara/Etc. make for an interesting little family tree. Though, I might put Kellhus as Gilgaol - The God of War - and Kelmomas as the Trickster. Them ascending into places of power and ... retroactively timeloop world manipulation etc. ... is a fun thought. I see no real way to contradict that.
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