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Messages - Dûnyain novice

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1
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Heramari Iyokus
« on: November 16, 2013, 06:33:44 pm »
I lack evidence but I do think that the Sight of the Few, the Third Sight of the Cishaurim, and Mimara's Judging Eye are three distinct items.

Same here!

2
General Earwa / Re: Sorcery
« on: November 16, 2013, 03:45:45 pm »
I think the "purity" of the Cishaurim work is a different sort of purity than the "purity of meaning" that I seem to recall is used somewhere to describe some Gnostic and or Quyan cants.

I like the "singing in tune" simile. The Cish are aware of and in tune with creation. Gnosis users don't listen at all, they just sing whatever they want, not giving a damn about even what kind of music is playing.

I agree with this.
In case of Anagogic or Gnostic sorcery the "purity of meaning" is strictly "semantical" or scientific if you want. It's the precision when describing concepts, with probably a hint of metaphysical understanding in it. It's just a tool to employ sorcery for whatever ends.

3
General Earwa / Re: Sorcery
« on: November 16, 2013, 12:00:21 pm »
If the Gnosis is some kind of logic based geometric sorcery:
Consider that within a 3 dimensional plane , you can only define a point with 1 coordinate. i.e (x). This is a 1d "object".
I think this is, more or less, what the anagogic schools use. They are limited to defining 1d sorcerery. If they want to "make" something, they can only specify 1 thing at a time. For example, something's length, or somethings height, but not both. This makes their "meaning"(purity) unclear.

With 2 points, you may define 2 points. (x, y). With this, you can now make your meaning much more clear. You can define something's length and width, or its height and length.
This is where the Gnosis is. The Mandati, and others, use the innuteral to clarify what they want more accuratly.

With an additional innuteral (the Meta-Gnosis) you can more fully describe what you want.


As a crude example: An anagogic schoolman, a gnostic schoolman, and a meta-gnostic schoolman want to summon a red cube that is 10meters long per side.
The anagogic schoolman simply says: Summon cube! He gets a transparent cube thats 1 meter long.
The Gnostic schoolman says: Summon cube, but thinks in his mind Red. He gets a red cube thats 20 meters long.
The meta-gnostic schoolman says: Summon cube, thinks Red and 10meters. He gets a red cube that is 10 meters long.

Sorry for the extraordinarily lame example, but its easier for me to think about than simply "and innuteral makes it more pure, and a 2nd makes it more purer ".

I feel like I'm mostly just rambling now so I'll shutup.


The example is fine, I think we actually agree on the "further inutterals = better specified meanings" theory regarding the Meta-Gnosis, but you put it in a clear way whereas I was constantly repeating "pure" and "purer" without making myself clear XD So I failed with my own purity of meanings right there XD

Your theory about the Anagosis though doesn't seem "right" to me...
When you say "The Mandati, and others, use the innuteral to clarify what they want more accuratly." I assume you mean the other Schools ( let's leave the Psukhe out of the equation for now ) Including the Scarlet Spires which we know for sure employ Anagogic sorcery.
Still from what I understood you theorize that the Anagosis does not use inutterals, and this is the main reason for the difference in power.
This thought never occurred to me. From the passage when Akka is teaching Kellhus:

"He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, whichalways remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken."

And

"Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. "And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able tosteal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.""There's the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key."

Cit. The Thousandfold Thought by R.Scott Bakker

From this explanation I gathered that ALL "standard" sorcery ( and I mean the Schools) uses both utterals and inutterals.
And that the Gnosis is more powerful because it uses a more suitable language as well as a different phrasing of the meanings. ( plus the metaphysics part )

It's hilarious to think about how easily Kellhus must have seen through Akka's attempted deception.

Indeed XD He must have thought "Yeah, thanks for confirming my theory Akka"


The second inutteral is only used for trans-location, that we have seen.  If the meaning was pure, Serwe wouldn't be worried about detection.  If anything, uniting three meanings into reality is going to leave a bigger, dirtier stain.

When I said pure I didn't mean in a "holy" or "less blasphemous" way. What I meant was "more specific", "more detailed". Just as Wilshire explained.

I agree on the Meta-gnosis = bigger sorcery bruise though! If the bruise is associated with modifying the world with sorcery, it would make sense that using the MG and thus being able to modify the world even more deeply equals a bigger sorcery bruise.

4
General Earwa / Re: Sorcery
« on: November 15, 2013, 10:39:46 am »
I think damnation points and Mark points are separate. Sorcery isn't the only way to be damned.

ETA: I believe that if you burn 7 tons of stone to cinders using the Fifth Quyan Whatnot, that could result in more Mark but fewer Damnation points than if you burn 3 tons of innocent people with the same Cant.

ETA2: Since the second option also involves murder of around 30-50 people, and I'm assuming murder gives Damnation point without affecting the Mark.

I totally agree with this theory. 



Fane developed the psukhe completely in the absence of knowledge of how anagogic and gnostic sorcery leverage changes to reality.  Note that both of those forms of sorcery use two inutterals, which makes sense as they pin two interpretations of meaning to two frames of perception.  By eliminating sight, Fane relied on one frame of perception (i.e. the onta) therefore one inutteral is enough to enforce sorcerous change.  As a side effect it eliminates 99% of the dissonance and also the visible Mark.

Using a third inutteral is only mentioned in the context of the cant of translocation, and this seems like an obvious method of referencing two physical places against the metaphysical reality of the sorcerer.  I believe its a question of leverage over power and that a third inutteral would serve no purpose in modifying most other cants.


From what I remember, during the scene where Akka teaches Kellhus, he explains that the Anagosis and Gnosis use 1 utteral string and 1 inutteral to better fix the meanings.
When Kellhus asks about adding a second inutteral Akka mentions this as the famed "Third Phase". Which would suggest that it's something kind of possible and not just a one-cant thing or a single incident.
Still, it's true that so far we know only one cant which actually uses a second inutteral! But that could very well be only because we see it in the last Kellhus POV.
Maybe in a future POV we'll see other MG Cants where it's specified that they all use 2 inutterals.

Also regarding the use of 2 inutterals in regular cants, from what I understand the second inutteral added by Kellhus helps him to obtain purer meanings. We know that in sorcery purer meanings usually equals stronger Cants so I recon Kellhus can theoretically turn any regular cant into a meta-gnostic one by adding a second inutteral or something close to this.

I like your theory about the Psukhe dissonance! Maybe they use 1 utteral and their emotions as "inutteral". This would explain why they're so powerful. Emotions would be more immediate and "pure" in meaning than another phrase.
 




5
General Earwa / Re: Re: Kellhus' Limits
« on: November 14, 2013, 01:12:22 pm »
Kelps, as usual, is more about subtlety. I see the second inutteral as giving him more precision in getting exactly what he wants from the Onta, not necessarily only raw power. If this is so, his Mark could very well be less pronounced than other sorcerers'.

Ah! You're right!
It could work like this:

Cant:                             Effect:                                                 Mark points received

Utteral                           Fire                                                       20
1st inutteral                   Fire on that rock                                     20
2nd inutteral                  Fire specifically just around the rock        -10       

With a total of 10 instead of the 20 he would get using regular Gnosis.

Or the other way around when he needs power:


Cant:                             Effect:                                                                   Mark points

Utteral                           Gnosis devastating abstraction                                 100
1st inutteral                   on those unlucky sranc                                            100         
2nd inutteral                  Moar power! Meta-Gnosis cataclysimc abstraction!     +300           

With a total of 500 because of the bigger "power usage"

Sorry about the schematic thingy but I felt it conveyed the idea faster than 100 words XD



6
Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello!
« on: November 14, 2013, 12:42:32 pm »
11) Have used the dunyain mantra ("The logos is without beginning or end") to get through a bad mushroom trip.

I...I must try this! XD Did you manage to grasp the Absolute? XD

7
General Earwa / Re: Re: Kellhus' Limits
« on: November 14, 2013, 12:31:30 pm »
Might be that the Mark doesn't reflect the power of the sorcerer as much as how long and much he has been practicing sorcery.

I always understood that the onta grows in relation to how much you "modify" reality using sorcery. In the case of Quya it would make sense since the older they are the more they used sorcery ( and we know they're both powerful and well practiced thanks to all the wars they fought )
When Akka begins teaching Kellhus the Gnosis he is worried that the first thing Kellhus will gain will be the weakness to Chorae since even the smallest cants damn the user. This would suggest a direct and confirmed relation between USE of sorcery and damnation/mark.
We can't know for sure if time enlarges the onta, because the guys with the strongest marks we've seen so far had both power and time.

We must take a look at the relationship between "use of sorcery" and "power" though...

Let's give for granted ( for speculation's sake ) that use of sorcery enlarges the mark.

This would mean that using a Surillic Point gives you let's say..."10 Mark points"
What happens when you use a Bar of Heaven? You'd get maybe "100 Mark points" right?
 
Unless! The Gods don't care if you use small or fancy moves, you still get damnation points!
So you can use ten Surillic Points or spam some crazy Meta-Gnostic illumination cants, you still get 1 damnation point every time whatever you do.
This way the Mark would be useless to gauge the sorcerer's power.
But then again Akka wouldn't be so scared of Nil'Giccas' mark. The way he talks about it is like he knows he's extremely powerful since his mark is so deep.
He knows for sure that he's experienced, but how does he know if he's powerful?
He could think "yeah Cleric has a nice 20.000 points mark but maybe he's been using Surillic Points and cooking Cants for the last 2000 years!"
It looks more like Akka's thinking "To get that kind of mark he must have used some nice moves over who knows how many years, he knows his sorcery, I must be careful"
At least that's how I read it XD


Not the difference in chorae effects on Akka between TDTCB and TJE.  In both books a chorae is held in his face, in TDCTB it just freaks him out but in TJE he starts to salt. 

I remember that in TTT when Cnaiur wakes up Akka with the Chorae he does feel the tingles of salting.
But it's not enough to prove that "time= deeper mark" I fear.

If time by itself affected the mark it would mean that
Akka's salting at the end of TTT ---->20 years later he salts more in TJE and WLW. But we can't really judge it. Maybe Kosoter holds the Chorae closer than Cnaiur did? ( non talking about the sranc punch incidend because everybody would salt from that) Or maybe Bakker simply wanted to emphasize the salting in the Kosoter scene...

If on the other hand "use/power mean bigger mark= aggravated salting" Akka is still useless as an example. I dont' think in those 20 years he spent alone he had much chance to spam warcants or become more powerful.

I stand behind the "Use of high level cants = greater deepening of the mark" + the time thing of course. I mean, both the level of cants and the usage influence the mark, with the attention focused on the power of sorceries. The more deeply you modify the world, deeper the mark gets.

If power didn't affect the mark then what would happen if Kellhus met some hostile Quya?
Surely the Nonman would have used sorcery for longer and would have a deeper mark.
Would he go "Oh yeah this guy has a nice mark but mine is deep-" Before getting unavoidibly  wrecked by the Meta-Gnosis?


 

8
General Earwa / Re: Kellhus' Limits
« on: November 14, 2013, 10:01:36 am »
Some other things to consider is that the "water" pouring from their forehead seems to be directly linked to their soul. One of the ciphrang at the end of TTT is able to yank a Cish's soul from his body just by grabbing onto the energy beam.

Right! That would be a huge liability! We can assume Kellhus knows about it since he studied with Iyokus, and I bet he asked for the details of how the Ciphrang fared against the Cish.
(On a sidenote, the Cish that got his soul pulled...That was some serious bad luck! XD)

On the other hand, it could be possible to add an emotional/Psûkhe component to the Gnosis. Maybe that is what Titirga did.

Hmm, that could explain why his mark was different...

I wonder how deep is Kellhus' mark! It should be the deepest mark ever seen, but I don't remember it being ever mentioned so far.

Which is strange given that in the WLW Mimara is constantly talking about marks, be it Akka or Cleric/Incariol/Nil'Giccas but she never mentions Kellhus.
Sure she states that the occasions in which they met were just a handful but shouldn't it be enough? I don't think one of the few would ever forget seeing such an extremely blasted mark.
Unless his mark is different for some reason, or mimara wasn't able to see it at the time. Which again seems impossible since from what I understood she knew she was one of the few at that time and could therefore see marks.

But perhaps my memory is playing games on me and she actually said something about Kellhus' mark...

9
General Earwa / Re: Kellhus' Limits
« on: November 13, 2013, 08:29:56 pm »
Anyway, back to the discussion at hand, anyone think there are other sorcerous goodies Kellhus has Red-Bulled?  I wonder about the Psukhe sometimes. 

That's an interesting thought!

I don't see him discarding the Psukhe "arrogantly" though! Rather after weighing the two options.
He had a taste of the Psukhe when he faced the Incandati at Shimeh, and they were having the upper hand sorcery wise.

I recon his thought process went something like this:

- Obtaining the Psukhe going blind -> unworkable
- Obtaining the Psukhe without the blindness, but being limited by it's emotion-requiring nature like my father was -> Unworkable

Also the level of power he gains manipulation of the Gnosis into Meta-Gnosis is theoretically unlimited. ( Meaning that we haven't seen anything specific yet but we can safely assume he's ridiculously powerful ). Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.

 

 
Edit: added quote


10
General Earwa / Re: Kellhus' Limits
« on: November 13, 2013, 06:33:12 pm »
I believe that Moenghus never was able to see past the Circumfixtion. Based on that assumption, most (if not all) of TAE trillogy is Kellhus' work. However, sense there is no consensus on the matter, its difficult to continue.

Same here.
After his death I never thought of Moe as a charachter that still had a big role to play. Sure we don't know a lot of things and given he was Dûnyain we are prone to think he must have had some great masterplan.

Still I always felt his encounter with Kellhus was the sum of his accomplishments.

He managed to become Cish, which in his case was an unfortunate mistake, but hey how could he have known? Anyway he rose between their ranks so it went kind of well.
Then he placed his son as the leader of a whole religion, and that was a huge move I believe.

Does he have other sons? We don't know and it may be, but have we seen any proof of it? I mean with Maitha we could at least wonder if he wasn't half-Dûnyain thanks to his descriptions. It would be silly if in the UC a charachter popped up as another son of Moe without having been shown at all before. (I'm not saying it's impossible just that it would seem weird to me)

To wrap it up I don't think Moe has anything else to show us. Sure maybe we'll get some answers about minor details regarding him but I would be extremely surprises ( and disappointed ) if it turned out that he still was the mastermind after his death.   


11
General Earwa / Re: Kellhus' Limits
« on: November 12, 2013, 01:23:21 pm »
After all the time he had to hone his sorcerous skills, I'd expect awesome overpowered moves once the ordeal meets some really powerful enemy!
Meta-gnosis: As far as offensive capabilities we've seen next to nothing. At least nothing specific. There never was a scene like: “Kellhus uses Meta-Gnostic cant X which does X”. But we can assume he would be extremely powerful.
After all he had just learnt the gnosis when he cut through the top Cish like a hot knife through butter. Yes one could argue that the teleportation + surprise backstabbing was kind of cheating, and he probably did it because he realized that his wards were not strong enough. It was 20 years ago though, he must have perfected every aspect of his sorcery skills. I don’t think there’s anything we know that could stand in his way sorcery-wise.
A group of Quya perhaps, but I would bet my money on Kellhus anyway.
Also I think his new wards would be really complex, something similar to the Barricades in concept.

Meta-daimos: This is where the speculation gets interesting! What could we expect? A little army of incredibly powerful Ciphrang? Who knows, whatever it is it’s gonna be awesome. He must have some crazy stuff up his sleeve.

The Consult must have been preparing too! I bet they’re busy digging another very deep hole thinking “Hey it worked once, didn’t it?” XD

P.S.
Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes, still learning :-P


12
Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello!
« on: November 10, 2013, 09:10:59 pm »
ah ah ah XD Nah, I feel like I'm in the right place ^^

13
Introduce Yourself / re hello
« on: November 10, 2013, 10:58:53 am »
ah ah I admit it! I tried stepping into the sky more than once without succes...I think my meanings are not pure enough XD

14
Introduce Yourself / Hello!
« on: November 09, 2013, 11:28:17 pm »
 Hello guys!

During the summer of 2011, while in Florida to improve my English I suddenly decide to re-read some of the “ Acts of Caine” books by M.W.Stoover which was my favorite series at the time.  Looking for the PDF’s on various forums ( I didn’t have my copies with me)  I stumble upon one of those “charachter vs charachter” threads.
“Caine vs Anasurimbor Kellhus”
I go through the thing thinking to myself “Who is this Kellhus guy they’re saying would win hands down against my favorite character ever?” I was intrigued.

Alas, not enough, and the whole thing was forgotten for a long time.

Then one day I remembered that name, found the thread and looked into the matter.
I wasn’t reading anything at the time so I decided to try and see for myself what made this Kellhus guy so special.
I started reading TDTCB with little more than curiosity but by the end of it I was hooked.
The worldbuilding, the characters, the different take on the magic element…I wasn’t used to this level of depth and everything sounded completely new and alien to me in a way. I was expecting some standard fantasy book with predictable characters and unimpressive writing style.
I’ve never been so wrong.

So here I am, I finally decided to officially join this forum after lurking for a week or so :D

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