The Slog TDTCB - Part One: Prologue & The Sorcerer [Spoilers]

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Wilshire

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« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2015, 06:55:12 pm »
I thought I was just reading the text as written. My mistake I guess.  :(
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 06:57:49 pm by Wilshire »
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locke

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« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2015, 07:03:05 pm »
The text is only what we want to see :D;)

Wilshire

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« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2015, 07:07:43 pm »
At least there's fodder for speculation as we wait a half dozen years for the last books.
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morkypep

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« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2015, 10:15:43 pm »
I think the purpose of these "hints" is to give the reader another reason to think Maithanet is not all that he seems. It also makes sense from an authors perspective to reveal this mystery of these minor hints in the same trilogy. You give the reader the answers to the small mysteries which are really only relevant to the PON trilogy, while leaving the over-arching and large questions to be revealed in the subsequent series. Thus the most logical answer would be that he found out Maithanet is actually working with the Cishaurin / Moenghus and or that he is Moenghus's son.

Also, maybe i was wrong to use the word "canon" but what I meant was, until we are told otherwise in the text or by Bakker, I am going to believe this is the answer.

H

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« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2015, 12:17:46 pm »
Well, one of the few things I remember of my very first read (ages and ages ago) was that it seemed to me that Maithanet was working with the Consult.  So, maybe that it the point of that part, to draw us off what is really going on.

As to what he did find, I'm still not sure.  Maybe one day we can ask Bakker what he was aiming at there.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

locke

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« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2015, 04:08:02 pm »
Well, one of the few things I remember of my very first read (ages and ages ago) was that it seemed to me that Maithanet was working with the Consult.  So, maybe that it the point of that part, to draw us off what is really going on.

As to what he did find, I'm still not sure.  Maybe one day we can ask Bakker what he was aiming at there.
Oh good point, I remember thinking that too.

Bolivar

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« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2015, 08:41:02 pm »
Yeah I just can't get around that line how, whatever it is he found, it would have been innocuous if not for his Mandate training. Maybe it was something sorcerous? I don't know, I think it's just supposed to go with the overall revelation that the Consult is real and they're involved in the Three Seas.

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H

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« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2015, 09:00:21 pm »
Yeah I just can't get around that line how, whatever it is he found, it would have been innocuous if not for his Mandate training. Maybe it was something sorcerous? I don't know, I think it's just supposed to go with the overall revelation that the Consult is real and they're involved in the Three Seas.

Yeah, but is it just window dressing by Bakker with no window?  We know that Maithanet didn't have anything to do with the Consult though, so I can't even think of anything that would have drawn Inrau to that conclusion.  This is fast becoming my personal "dragons wearing chorae," haha.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #113 on: December 18, 2015, 06:58:49 am »
Mandate also teaches dead languages, not just consult knowledge.


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This would be my guess. the thing they teach you is philosophy and language.

locke

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« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2015, 10:09:15 pm »
On inrau what did he find?
 I figured this out just now.
It's not important what he finds.
It's important how what he finds will allow achamian to be manipulated and primed and positioned.  What inrau finds is not important. What is important is that inraus death will make achamian into conditioned ground.

The key is, "Assist Drusas Achamian" letter that Proyas later receives from Maithanet.  Maithanet or those pulling the Maithanet strings, want Drusas  Achamian right where he is.

So what did Inrau find? Only what Maithanet wanted him to find.

Maithanet knew where Drusas Achamian was staying and his people knew that Inrau was contacting him. Maithanet is personally aware of Achamian because he asks Proyas directly about him.  Presumably, the Thousand Temples knew that Inrau was former Mandate and untrustworthy.

So. Why then is an untrusted functionary allowed anywhere near the Shriah's private quarters?  Because they let it happen. and Maithanet left a big old clue that only someone from the Mandate would recognize as a clue. 

Why let it happen?  Because Inrau is the lever that moves and conditions Achamian.  They know this on Atyersus, and Maithanet, being who he is, would know or figure that out as well.

So what's going on here?  I think the mandate needs to be prompted and prodded into place by Moenghus, and Moenghus needs to provide Kellhus a reliable Mandate tutor who won't report Kellhus. Otherwise, once Kellhus states his name, the mandate will swarm. and any spy will report him immediately.  Unless that spy has recent reasons to distrust the Mandate.  Problem: The mandate sorcerers don't distrust their school and have pretty perfect loyalty thanks to Seswatha.

So.

First, you identify a sorcerer with a weak spot; Achamian would stand out, he's a teacher who allowed a candidate to abandon the Mandate path before initiation. Then you leverage the situation so you can take advantage of the weak spot (if Inrau had went to be a steward in Cepharunni's household you would have arranged to send Akka that direction to be manipulated there).

Second, hunt down the Mandate spies and eliminate them one by one.  You do this right before the Holy War will be called. For this reason of dead spies, the Mandate recalls the not-hunted-down Drusas Achamian to send him to be their new operative in Sumna (you know the Mandate will send Akka (even though the Mandate knows it alienates him modestly to exploit Inrau) because they're desperate to get quick access into the Thousand Temples). 

Third, obviously, once the holy war is announced, Achamian is going to be sent to Momemn as he's the only active agent the Mandate has at this point, and they're already paranoid and turtled. But how do you manipulate that perfect Mandate loyalty Akka possesses because of Seswatha?  That's the big question.

The answer is that you leverage the alienation he feels at the Mandate for exploiting Inrau by having Inrau murdered. This makes Achamian actively distrust the Mandate--especially in regards to how they treat his students.

You have Inrau murdered (reported as suicide) by allowing him to spy and leaving evidence only he could recognize, you let him commit the crime first so you can later allow enough info to leak through Proyas so that Achamian knows Inrau died working at the Mandate's behest.  (note, Sarcellus may have been conditioned into murdering Inrau or Maithanet may have had another murder planned for Inrau that was 'foiled' by the Consult consultation Inrau witnessed, hard to say).

Boom. Achamian is betrayed by the Mandate and primed to be ultra-protective of his students right before Kellhus arrives. you've conditioned your way around the loyalty block of the Mandate and created a person who can teach your Anasurimbor without reporting the presence of a harbinger directly, instantly, back to the Mandate.

Additionally, but fairly irrelevant, note that the letter to Proyas arrives at almost the moment when Achmian is wrestling with whether or not to teach Kellhus sorcery.  Inconveniently, Achamian was kidnapped by the Scarlet Spires because that letter, providing evidence they believed Inrau a spy, would have tilted Achamian further against the Mandate at that moment.

Bolivar

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« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2015, 11:50:46 pm »
^ I'm down with this, especially after reading this passage this morning:

Quote
I gave them Inrau . . . Must I give them Kellhus too? No. He had told them what would happen to Inrau. He had told them, and they had refused to listen.

This is the argument with which his decision turned, the loss of Inrau. To me, this seems like as hell of a lot of positioning. Achamian was the perfect Mandati to teach Kellhus the Gnosis, just as he happened to be the only one who had a chance at infiltrating the Thousand Temples due to Inrau. And he was the ideal candidate to monitor the Holy War and find Kellhus, as they send him to resume spying on the Scarlet Spires, since he was previously assigned to them. Interestingly, he was also in Shimeh 8 years prior, during the Battle of Zirkirta  (perhaps Moenghus took note of him then?) Maithanet may have chosen Proyas as his confidant, due to his relationship with Achamian,  as well as the compact between Conriya and the Mandate.

However, this also makes the overlap between the Thousandfold Thought and the Consult an even deeper shade. The person who made all of this possible was Simas, the skin spy with a soul and the Consult's mole inside the Mandate.

Quote
Trust me when I tell you we’ve struck the proper proportion with Achamian. Was I wrong when I told you Inrau’s defection would prove useful someday?”

Useful to say the least! As Achamian's mentor, he may have been responsible for Achamian's convoluted career path, first as a royal tutor, to ingratiate him with Proyas, then a spy, then an instructor, allowing Inrau to leave, then a spy again, assigned to the Scarlet Spires, just long enough to uncover their war against the Cishaurim,  and right before they formally join the Holy War. While this could just be a fantasy author making their characters relevant to the plot, this is after a series where the lives and thoughts of characters have been premeditated and compelled by others.

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themerchant

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« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2015, 12:12:18 am »
Well i believe that Simas was a product of Moe. His discovery by Maitha allows them to immediately bring the Mandate onside. I think he is a conditioned skinspy, "re-programmed" by Moe. Or him existing is just a lucky break for Maithanet as it now gives him a pre-text to go collect the Mandate in TTT and sail together to annoint Kellhus.

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« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2015, 12:56:23 am »
Well i believe that Simas was a product of Moe. His discovery by Maitha allows them to immediately bring the Mandate onside. I think he is a conditioned skinspy, "re-programmed" by Moe. Or him existing is just a lucky break for Maithanet as it now gives him a pre-text to go collect the Mandate in TTT and sail together to annoint Kellhus.

That's good, I've never thought of Simas as a product of Moe. Adds a whole new layer to the conditioning Moe laid for Kellhus.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2015, 05:15:18 am »
Moenghus probably took a skin spy and then took the real simas and did meta soul magic to rip his soul from his original body and then bind his soul to the skin spy body. ;) just like the wathi doll, writ dunyain meta style.


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Wilshire

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« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2015, 01:47:24 pm »
I at least don't see why a soul couldn't be placed in a skin spy doll instead of a wathi doll. Might require some out of the box thinking, but seems reasonable. One drawback is it would be marked, but nbd if you use it to spy on sorcerers.
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