The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:28:51 pm

Title: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:28:51 pm
This topic contains spoilers up through The White-Luck Warrior.

Quote from: Walter
A buddy and I were talking about the end of White Luck Warrior lately, and we discovered that we'd both jumped to totally different conclusions about who had destroyed the Dunyains monastery.

So what do y'all say?

A: Kellhus
B: The Consult
C: Other?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:28:58 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
C: Batman!

Could be a fake - Kellhus sends a dream through and the Dunyain realise they've gotta go find another evil laboratory to work in.

Given it was ruined rather than obliterated, I'm guessing Consult.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:04 pm
Quote from: Curethan
The map case was broken.  Are these ruins even the monastery they were looking for?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:09 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
These may not be the droids they where looking for.


I can't decide who done it myself.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:15 pm
Quote from: Madness
There was "Doom," though...

I'm still going with the Dunyain did it to themselves - though I like the elegance of Wutteat scorching them as he flies back to his Masters. The world, after all, is not dead.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:21 pm
Quote from: WillemB
The Dunyain did it themselves.  Sort of like burning the ships on the beach... there's no going back.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:35 pm
Quote from: Garet Jax
It's the Cish.

Feels good to say too.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:40 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
There are probably some here that would say it was Moenghus senior, but I am not one of those people.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:45 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I bet on Moe, who guided Kellhus to the safety of Leweth's hut, and destroyed the Dunyain during the 2-3 days that Kellhus was paralyzed, captivated by watching WATER flow in a creek.

I do love the idea that Moe destroyed the Dunyain and established there a colony of Dunyainic Cishaurim.

The roots of Ishual go DEEP, Akka and Mimara will arrive at the mansion of Ishteribinth from Below.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:51 pm
Quote from: WillemB
Quote from: lockesnow
I do love the idea that Moe destroyed the Dunyain and established there a colony of Dunyainic Cishaurim.

I like that kind of speculation, but wonder how you'd present it narratively without the explanation feeling like a Scooby-Doo reveal.  Although, to be fair, Bakker pulled off that kind of chatter-heavy exposition at the end of TTT by bouncing between POVs, then cycling back to Mo and Kellhus.

Now, remind me why we don't think Moenghus really died?  Something about a Cishaurim face projection?   I'm obviously late to the party.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:29:56 pm
Quote from: coobek
I hope they roam the thousand halls beneath, just destroyed it to look like a fake ruins to Consult and anybody.

Hopefully they are there. Anyway who would take on an army of level 0 Dunyain monks who empty handed can stand up to Nonmen of old and win.

Comeon.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:02 pm
Quote from: Madness
Willem, you should probably spend some time in Moenghus is a lying liar who lies[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/moenghus-is-a-lying-liar-who-lies-t1230473.html) ;).

No one knows about the Dunyain capabilities except those who know too much.

Someone stumbling upon them is either asleep or awake.

To be quite honest, I figure the Dunyain set about to make it look like Ishual was destroyed or abandoned right after Kellhus left. Philosopher-King Dunyain are all "Fuck, our seclusion keeps getting busted (all of twice). Now that all Moenghus' buddies commited seppuku, we should make it look like Ishual is abandoned."
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:08 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Yeah, they may have figured that the intrusions require the location to be known (granted, perhaps also the specific person, and all those Moe knew went and killed themselves).

Hey, that's a point, the dreams - can you send them to regular folk?

If not, how many of the flipping Dunyain are the few?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:13 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Was thinking the same thing last night, Madness.
There's also the possibility that the dunyain pragma's are playing a much deeper game than anyone realises.

The way the above ground structures have been razed suggests either many seige engines, sorcery or dragons did the job...

I think Akka might find an old dunyain left to feed us some info-crumbs within the below-ground mansion.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:19 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
It'd be sick if the unmasking room remains.

Actually baring something unusual like breaking free, they'd probably have starved to death.

But meeting someone without a face in the ruins - seems a likelyhood given the series!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:24 pm
Quote from: Madness
Actually, that'd probably be a good scene... bunch of skeletons forced into fixed positions within a circle - Achamian would certainly realize that that's how the Dunyain trained Kellhus to read faces and emotions.

+1, Curethan, for actual Dunyain/Achamian encounter - also, TJE/Dunyain encounter.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:30 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Not sure what the clues would be? dried leather on the bodies, but not the face? Seems too subtle for Akka to pick up on, he's not that smart...oh, that's where Mimara comes in! Mimara with her named magic swords! She got loot! LOOOOOT!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:37 pm
Quote from: Garet Jax
Do we know for sure that the all the Dunyain showed up to Ishual to find that boy?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:42 pm
Quote from: Madness
We're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:46 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Garet Jax
Do we know for sure that the all the Dunyain showed up to Ishual to find that boy?

Nope. Everything in the text is subject to multiple interpretations and can be considered fallible. Not much is known for fact.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:51 pm
Quote from: Camlost
Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Ishual initially kept hidden by a glamour? The validity of that statement may undermine all I'm about to put forth but speculating is what we do. If the sanctuary was indeed hidden by a glamour in the beginning I would suggest that either the extinction of its residents left no one to maintain it, or that some of those first Dunyain to discover it were of the Few. If the latter is the case that might shed some light on the number of the Few among the current Dunyain population. Now I can't remember what the likelihood of being one of the Few is, or if paternity has a propensity towards repetition, but I would imagine that two thousand years of selective inbreeding would heighten the probability of being on of the Few. Might it be the case that nearly all of Dunyain can perceive the Onta but simply in their seclusion have no concept of sorcery? Perhaps the Pragmas are aware and capable of minor sorcery, particularly maintaining the glamour surrounding Ishual, this could be corroborated by Callan's point: can only the Few receive dreams? All that said brings me to the suggestion I wished to make all along, supposing that my initial claim is true, perhaps the ruins are simply a glamour. But having written that I'm immediately struck by a contradiction, Akka should be able to see through it. Maybe his grief over discovering ruins has clouded his vision..

It makes for a lot more mystery and convoluted plot if Ishual has truly been destroyed though which seems more Bakkerian than simple misdirection. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:30:58 pm
Quote from: Mog Kellhus
I don't remember anything about a glamour at Ishual , it is hidden by natural means like the glacier.You probably got confused with Min-Uroikas which was hidden by a glamour cast by Nonmen.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:03 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Madness
We're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.
Don't be so sure....

Wait, does that even make sense?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:08 pm
Quote from: Garet Jax
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Madness
We're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.
Don't be so sure....

Wait, does that even make sense?

Reminds me of the prequel to Avatar...

Batty Koda: Only fools are positive.
Zak: Are you sure?
Batty Koda: I'm positive...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:13 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Back on topic.
Not sure who knocked Ishual down, but one thing is certain.
If Akka and Mim had arrived a few months later they would have found a McDonalds.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:19 pm
Quote from: Camlost
Suppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:23 pm
Quote from: Camlost
Quote
I don't remember anything about a glamour at Ishual , it is hidden by natural means like the glacier.You probably got confused with Min-Uroikas which was hidden by a glamour cast by Nonmen.

You're probably right. I think I was mistaking the two now that you mention the other.

Although the Nonmen must have been involved or at least known of Ishual given the speculated tunnel between it and Ishterbinth. But if that proves untrue then forget what I just said.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:28 pm
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Camlost
Suppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago

+1. Why have Mek up there unless he's up to some evil Consulty stuff? The Inchoroi don't seem to know of the Dunyain's existence until the emergence of Anasurimbor Kellhus, though, so I'm hesitant to throw my weight behind Mek as the destroyer of Ishual -- at least at that point in the story.

What would he be up to, though? Why would Bakker have it be Mek instead of "nameless Non-man"?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:33 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Camlost
Suppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago

evil Consulty stuff

Thats quite possible. Not as poetic as the dragon that Akka awoke destroying is final goal (does that fall under world conspires? I still dont get that), but and interesting idea. Maybe Mek found Ishual, or more likey a nameless Citadel, and blew it up with his gnosis powers, never mentions it to the Consult. Then the Consult find Kell and have no clue where to start looking because the only thing they can find up north is a big heap of smoking ruins, so they go searching to the west.

 :lol: evil Consulty stuff.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:38 pm
Quote from: Camlost
Quote
The Inchoroi don't seem to know of the Dunyain's existence until the emergence of Anasurimbor Kellhus, though, so I'm hesitant to throw my weight behind Mek as the destroyer of Ishual -- at least at that point in the story.

Good point. How long do you think it would take an Erratic to find a hidden location? Two thousand years lol?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:42 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Khellus killed Mek's elju.  Whatever he was doing, can't see that it got finished.

We'll have a better idea as soon as Akka gets to the ruins.
Dragon sign is hard to miss (the 3 scratches from Sauglish) and would indicate the Consult.

Sorcery should also be readily apparent and would probably indicate Kellhus did it.
Reasoning is that the Consult would be very cautious about a frontal assault or risking their magic users after their experiences with Moe and Kell. 
A simple assault with Sranc and Bashrag would have likely failed at first and I don't see them as that great at sustained seigecraft.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:47 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Just keep sending in more zerglings and eventually the bunker full of firebats protecting the siege tanks will break and you can get in. It just costs the lives of innumerable lings but whatever, they are cheap and easy to replace.

(anyone else see the seas of sranc like zerglings? maybe i've played too much starcraft)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:52 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Camlost
Although the Nonmen must have been involved or at least known of Ishual given the speculated tunnel between it and Ishterbinth. But if that proves untrue then forget what I just said.

Camlost, I've debated this with Dean more often than you can imagine. He's surprisingly well read - if only obsessively trying to find Bakker's continuity errors... LMAO!

That being said, I have to hand it to them, except Kellhus' comparison of the Nonmen Mansion beneath Kyudea there is no textual evidence for the Thousand Thousand Halls being an extension of a Mansion or that Ishual was built on one - in fact, the evidence - I think he's got three pieces, if I recall correctly - points towards the Dunyain building it themselves for training purposes... though clearly, lying to initiates is Dunyain Teaching 101.

Quote from: Meyna
+1. Why have Mek up there unless he's up to some evil Consulty stuff?

+3, I think, evil Consulty stuff! Because that was always the plan :D.

Clearly, Mekeritrig is up to something - I've often wondered if Ishterebinth would hazard another returned traitor from the Inchoroi but it's possible Cet'ingira went to sway the Nonmen to the Consult? To reveal Nil'giccas' lie/omission, finally?

Quote from: Wilshire
Not as poetic as the dragon that Akka awoke destroying is final goal (does that fall under world conspires? I still dont get that), but and interesting idea.

+1 Wutteat - as Curethan said, it'll be super obvious, if that's the case.

The World Conspires, to me, Wilshire - though, I'm not sure others share my hesitancy - is simply Fate Conspires. Mostly, the evidence aside the rationalizing, is this: "The world has its own ways, sockets so deep that not even the Gods can dislodge them. No urn is so cracked as Fate. - ASANSIUS, THE LIMPING PILGRIM" (WLW, p184)

I believe that is our only epigram by Asansius in the series, thus far, an anomaly like Ganus the Blind. I think Callan started the thread asserting that whenever something comes across as narrative conceit ("that would only happen in a book, or that's an irregular plot-jump"), we can blame it on Fate conspiring, playing her own mad game. This epigram also suggests to me that Fate is something akin to Ajokli.

Quote from: Curethan
We'll have a better idea as soon as Akka gets to the ruins.

Where'd you find your speculative zen ;)? TELL ME WHAT YOU SEE!

Quote from: Curethan
A simple assault with Sranc and Bashrag would have likely failed at first and I don't see them as that great at sustained seigecraft.

If I was a betting man, I'd guess that we'll finally get some Gnosis vs. Gnosis at Dagliash, among other tasty combinations. However, there was a time when I wondered if the Consult would simply contest Dagliash with Weapon Races...

EDIT: Wilshire, I like the analogy but all I can imagine Sranc as now is that stupid Zombie ladder from the World War Z trailer. Btw, Brad Pitt, I don't care about Max Brooks' nameless UN character's origin story! I care about the French fighting in the Catacombs, the Oriental wood walkers, and single shot rifles being the best way to kill SLOW WALKING zombies... Fucking Hollywood.[/quote]
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:31:58 pm
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Wilshire
Just keep sending in more zerglings and eventually the bunker full of firebats protecting the siege tanks will break and you can get in. It just costs the lives of innumerable lings but whatever, they are cheap and easy to replace.

(anyone else see the seas of sranc like zerglings? maybe i've played too much starcraft)

Spot on oh Brother!

Bunkers and tanks were cool, nothing moves past them if you had Orion fleet hovering. Unless of course there was a Ghost with nuke coming. ANd then the russian Orion captn was pretty cool.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:10 pm
Quote from: Madness
You play SC2 at all, coobek?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:18 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Zerging sranc seem unlikely to strike the citadel's bulwarks to their foundations.  Or however it is described.
Plus you have to factor in that the Dunyain can take instant tech advances as needed.  (I don't SC - sorry if that doesn't mesh with the anology).

Other option is that the Dunyain might just top themselves or hightail it when they see that contamination is inevitable.  Again, no massive destruction results.
I think it kinda had to be a shock and awe offensive with a LOT of raw power.  Ergo; dragons, daimotic or meta-gnostic sorcery.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:23 pm
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Madness
You play SC2 at all, coobek?

Nope. Just SC1. Didn't play much after my first child was born at all. No time for that.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:28 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol, there are worse reasons to stop playing video games ;). Congrats on parenthood many, or not so many, seasons ago.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:33 pm
Quote from: coobek
4 seasons. An now double jeopardy for 1 season.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:38 pm
Quote from: Madness
LOL! Congrats a second time then.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:44 pm
Quote from: Camlost
Quote
Camlost, I've debated this with Dean more often than you can imagine. He's surprisingly well read - if only obsessively trying to find Bakker's continuity errors... LMAO!
Are we talking Dean from creative writing class?

Madness you've mention on a number of occasions that you feel Dagliash will be analogous to Helm's Deep much like Cil'Aujas was to the Mines of Moria. How close do you think Bakker will adhere to that model? Do you think we'll see Dagliash on the brink of capture and our resident Wizard showing up in the nick of time with an army of Nonmen at his back? It feels somewhat likely to me, at the very least it makes for a convenient rally location for joining the Ordeal.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:32:51 pm
Quote from: Madness
One and the same.

I remember reading Cil'Aujas and being physically jarred by the reading experience. The ideas expressed were so Tolkien to me, despite the fact that Cil'Aujas is two chapters and Moria is a couple pages. Then I realized that this is something of Bakker's jab and the point. He's playing our connotations - he just happens to have such wicked awesome prose ;).

I almost hazard that the Ordeal will take Daglish with nigh a loss.

Then... Caraskand, Consult-style :twisted:...

While Achamian spends most of the book diffusing whatever is going on at Ishterebinth so that the Quya Chariots may ride to the aid of the Great Ordeal. Seriously... my head may explode.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:33:29 pm
Quote from: Camlost
Ièm glad he made it through Darkness. It can be a  bit much for some, enough to put them off TSA.

I personally savour the Illiadic style of his battle scenes. One of the things I disliked about the Malazan series is that you only ever saw a battle from a squadès point of view..

This is getting a little away from the topic at hand though, so... How populated is the Ancient North these daysÉ I guess Ièm wondering why the Consult wouldnèt have taken control of any ground that might be remotely advantageous to Kellhus and the Ordeal. Sure they canèt contest them everywhere but certainly they have some extra Sranc they could throw at them at the whole of the way, widdle down and demoralize the Ordeal before they are even confronted with a real battle, something to challenge the conviction that Kellhus has installed in them
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:33:34 pm
Quote from: Curethan
The ancient north seems pretty sparsely populated except by sranc.  But...
I'm curious how tribes like Aengleas' managed to survive (at least until the end of TWP)...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:33:40 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Camlost
I personally savour the Illiadic style of his battle scenes.
+2 :D. And roam free topic-wise, Camlost, we can always move posts to new threads. Its organic.

+1 Curethan.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:33:44 pm
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
One and the same.

I remember reading Cil'Aujas and being physically jarred by the reading experience. The ideas expressed were so Tolkien to me, despite the fact that Cil'Aujas is two chapters and Moria is a couple pages. Then I realized that this is something of Bakker's jab and the point. He's playing our connotations - he just happens to have such wicked awesome prose ;).


Yeah - I felt like TJE was the weakest book overall but for the finale....

...and I"m still recovering from it. 


Run
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:33:55 pm
Quote from: Madness
Amen. TJE was the weakest book - unfortunate that it seems to enjoy the most readership of people who don't like Bakker's writing.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:34:00 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Maybe Kellhus destroyed Ishaul, but not as a means to kill the remaining Dunyain. Perhaps it was to force and ultimatum of sorts.

Kellhus could convince the Dunyain that he was still sane, and that he had found a way to actually complete their centuries old project soon (via sorcery, Diamotic or otherwise, via Tekne or IF, something along those lines). Then, as a way to provoke them either to come with him or die, he blew up their home and told them to follow him in his ordeal.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:34:05 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm still thinking they've just abandoned the place. Or retreated forever into the Thousand Thousand Halls.

Gah! Maybe the No-God is the reader.... when Bakker tells us that TSTSNBN is a myth. To be fair, I read PON twice thinking that that was the story.

I thought Bakker was the most audacious fucking author ever.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:34:19 pm
Quote from: Ajokli
I've come around to the 'underground batcave' theory
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:11 pm
Quote from: Madness
The only thing that turns me off this theory is that Bakker's hinted at the Ishual being done with after that first chapter. Long enough for Achamian to find a living Dunyain society? Blinding them with his sorcerous light. Wow... creepy. Dunyain Gollums.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:18 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
what will the cants of compulsion do to a dunyain?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:25 pm
Quote from: Madness
Hmm... Lol. Give Achamian Dunyain puppets :shock:?!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:34 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Could the dunyain come before the Cants of Compulsion?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:40 pm
Quote from: Madness
Hm... Not without some prior knowledge of sorcery, if its even possible.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:45 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Kellhus came before the inchoroi compulsions, why not sorcery?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:52 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm not sure they try the Cants of Compulsion on Kellhus - Aurang tries a Galmour when compulsing Esmenet, to which Kellhus responds with a "Dara Ward," neh?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:36:58 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Someone is going to have too look it up, but I'm pretty sure he used a compulsion cant on Esmi. Afterwards she complained about being conflicted because she couldn't distinguish between her own thoughts and Aurang's thoughts. I'm not sure what Aurang tries to do to Kellhus though, just that he momentarily loses control and the avoids it somehow.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:06 pm
Quote from: Madness
"The ward was simple - one of the first Achamian had taught him - an ancient Kuniuric Dara, proof against what were called incipient sorceries. His words racked the sultry air. For a moment the light of his eyes shone across her skin ... Achamian had told him of this creature, that its capacities would be largely restricted to glamours, compulsions, and possessions. The great shout that was its true form, the Schoolman had said, could be heard only as whispers and insinuations at such a distance" (TTT, p312).
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:12 pm
Quote from: coobek
Did you watch the movie '300'? Isn't it Dunyains against the anybody?

And just to continue the movie analogy - Marv from Sin City is almost perfect Cnauir.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:18 pm
Quote from: Madness
First couple times I read PON, I misread that Cnaiur had hair... I think I made the one hero at the beginning of Troy, which was a big hit around my place when I found PON, a connotation for Cnaiur, misattributing characteristics.

Mickey Rourke eh? He'd be good - Basically, him in Iron Man 2 or Immortals as Cnaiur?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:23 pm
Quote from: Triskele
Does Cnaiur not have hair?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:28 pm
Quote from: Madness
Cnaiur has hair. Lol.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:33 pm
Quote from: The Tiger of Eumarna
guys i have a question about the Dunyain. I decided to read the series again to get pumped for The Unholy Consult which will hopefully come out this year. Anyways in the prologue of The Darkness That Comes Before and after Kellhus kills the sranc he confronts a Nonman. part of the prologue goes as follows " beneath the cloak, the man was powerfully built, heavily armoured, and from the way he comported himself, entirely unafraid. 'I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power eh?.' This one was not like Leweth. Not at all."- did the nonman's comment suggest he knows about the dunyain?? if that was the case wouldnt the Consult know as well?? someone help
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:38 pm
Quote from: Ajokli
Quote from: The Tiger of Eumarna
Did the nonman's comment suggest he knows about the dunyain?? if that was the case wouldnt the Consult know as well?? someone help

I don't believe anyone at the time knew who the Dunyain were. OTOH, Kellhus did know who the Nonman was either. Here's a couple links I found that may give you a better understanding than I did.

http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/mekeritrig-t1272694.html (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/mekeritrig-t1272694.html)

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Cet%27ingira (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Cet%27ingira)

Welcome to the forums!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:44 pm
Quote from: Madness
Tiger, I figure that the Nonmen is commenting on Kellhus' obvious training and ability; first in killing Mekeritrig's Sranc then by Kellhus' composure and perception - and ultimately, ignorance - in proximity of a Nonman: who we know as of TAE are not be fucked with.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse ;).
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:49 pm
Quote from: The Tiger of Eumarna
Thanks! and i believe that the Dunyain are still alive. Im just guessing that the cloaked man at the start of the judging eye was dunyain and that the dunyain escaped destruction
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:37:55 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
The Consult would have to be extremely stupid/shortsighted to destroy the Dunyain, IMO. As Kellhus points out to his father in TTT, any Dunyain exposed to the truth about Damnation would be compelled to pursue the same ends as the Consult.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:01 pm
Quote from: Madness
I've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.

But then I was not expecting two conversations to climax such momentous events... And the Wizard limped on. Cooool Guuuyys waalk away from DUNYAAAIIINNNN! And don't look back.

Lol.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:07 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
I've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.
Can you argue with his logic on this point, though? Being judged by an Outside entity and then subjected to an eternity without any personal agency seems antithetical to the Dunyain goal. Achieving mastery over all circumstance would seem to require a closed (i.e. closed off from the Outside) system.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:13 pm
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
I've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.
Can you argue with his logic on this point, though? Being judged by an Outside entity and then subjected to an eternity without any personal agency seems antithetical to the Dunyain goal. Achieving mastery over all circumstance would seem to require a closed (i.e. closed off from the Outside) system.

Yes, with the revelation that circumstance extends beyond the mortal realm, the Dunyain would probably have to change their goal to incorporate this new set of conditions. I would think that instead of lamenting that the mortal system is not closed, they would simply extend their system to include the outside and strive to master that, too. After all, Kellhus (supposedly) ventured to the outside and performed quite well, so maybe mastery is a possibility.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:21 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Meyna
After all, Kellhus (supposedly) ventured to the outside and performed quite well, so maybe mastery is a possibility.
But Kellhus claims to be "more [than Dunyain]".

Mastery of the Outside might indeed be theoretically possible, but closing off the World from the Outside is still the shortest path. We're talking about a group that shut themselves off from history, the reality of sorcery, and the very existence of the Outside for a couple thousand years.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:26 pm
Quote from: Madness
First off, I doubt entirely that an entity of the Outside has actually ordained Kellhus as Fanayal, Psatma, or allegedly Fane and Sejenus. I've never boughten into the Circumfixion, that if Kellhus connected to the Outside, or been chosen by the God of Gods, it wasn't just the breaking of madness' bead, a la Achamian analogy.

There are some indications that he could communicate with a supreme entity but whether through what has come before coming all the way back or holding the next greatest abstraction, in his mind, that has ever existed in the world, giving rise to Supreme It in the world of Forms, I just don't think Kellhus or the Dunyain are there yet.

Secondly, I'm confused: why is the World to Ishual any different from the Outside to World? I mean, there is a serious break in Kellhus reasoning. Kellhus assumes he can Come Before everything, thus Conditioning Extent Reality but yet the Dunyain are not capable of this why?

In fact, Kellhus' argument rests on this shaky hinge. Why would the Dunyain decide that closing the world to the Outside would be easier rather than Conditioning the Outside too?

EDIT: And then I reread your latest, Duskweaver.

I still ain't buying. The Dunyain cannot be so enslaved by their own traditions as to not question them throughout their Project - especially to me, as I've argued in the past that the Project is doomed to failure by its seclusion unless returning to the World is a Missive.

Dunyain Nostradamus is coming ;).
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:33 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Dunyain Nostradamus is coming ;).
aka Dune Messiah.

iirc, Kellhus thinks in the prologue that the Dunyain taught that sorcery was superstition.

What if sorcery IS superstition?

Yeah it works, but its still superstition and because human understanding of sorcery is bound by custom, tradition, belief and other cultural baggage it is largely superstitious.

The Dunyain flattened out sorcery because the practice of it was entirely too crap to be allowed to endure.  The figured since its obviously part of the world, they would rebuild it from the ground up without any of the crap.  Kellhus just never got to that level. ;)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:38 pm
Quote from: Madness
I like it another way that some Dunyain apostate in their past wrote a bunch of future predictions - like my previous assertion elsewhere that the Dunyain have a bunch of instructions in time-dated envelopes, which they open and follow periodically ;).

Do we have the quote for that in the almanac, lockesnow? There is a huge difference between Kellhus learning of sorcery from Leweth and sorcery being taught as superstition by the Dunyain.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:38:54 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
the question is, from where and why does Kellhus know what superstition is that he labels Leweth as superstitious?  I presumed that Kellhus' use of this vocabulary indicates a cultural instruction in such vocabulary, because I doubt it would be picked up from Leweth who would view his beliefs as true (and note everything he tells Kellhus is true, despite kellhus not believing him).

Or the use of superstition as a term does not indicate extra meaning or Dunyain practices and was just a writerly tactic employed by RSB to flatter the reader into agreement and identification with Kellhus.  RSB wants the reader to identify with Kellhus because he plans on undermining that identification.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:39:01 pm
Quote from: coobek
Kelhus is just lying liar that lies. Circumfixion bah.
He is after Tekne and he wants to be on top of Consult for the means of control. Maybe to release the No-God again.

But Storks and Seswatha/Akka will not allow it.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:39:07 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
First off, I doubt entirely that an entity of the Outside has actually ordained Kellhus as Fanayal, Psatma, or allegedly Fane and Sejenus. I've never boughten into the Circumfixion, that if Kellhus connected to the Outside, or been chosen by the God of Gods, it wasn't just the breaking of madness' bead, a la Achamian analogy.

Which is the same thing.  Breaking the bead allows the outside to leak into the world through a soul.  Why wouldn't an outside agency make use of this?  Especially if the broken soul has attracted the interest of said agencies through profane or holy actions/intent beforehand.  See Cnaiur's further musings on Akka's analogy in TTT.

You don't think Fanayal, Psatma, the Narinadar, the WLW and Kelmomas are cray cray? 
Worship and belief seem just as crazy in Earwa as they do in our world.  "Having faith in ignorance" ... "prizing ignorance". Bakker constantly depicts it as errant madness.  The difference is that this form of insanity grants temporal power to the things outside...

Quote from: coobek
Kelhus is just lying liar that lies. Circumfixion bah.
He is after Tekne and he wants to be on top of Consult for the means of control. Maybe to release the No-God again.

But Storks and Seswatha/Akka will not allow it.

If you consider that the Tekne would be useful for Kellhus' objectives, perhaps you should consider the way he was manipulated the Ordeal into eating Sranc - the products of the Tekne.
Add a little something-something to the water and hey presto we're applying the Tekne to his army.

Then you have Cleric and Kosoter (Kellhus' agents) forcing Qirri on Akka and Mimara.  What if Cu'jara's ashes have been tampered with?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:39:13 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: lockesnow
the question is, from where and why does Kellhus know what superstition is that he labels Leweth as superstitious? I presumed that Kellhus' use of this vocabulary indicates a cultural instruction in such vocabulary, because I doubt it would be picked up from Leweth who would view his beliefs as true (and note everything he tells Kellhus is true, despite kellhus not believing him).

+1

Quote from: Curethan
Which is the same thing. Breaking the bead allows the outside to leak into the world through a soul. Why wouldn't an outside agency make use of this? Especially if the broken soul has attracted the interest of said agencies through profane or holy actions/intent beforehand. See Cnaiur's further musings on Akka's analogy in TTT.

You don't think Fanayal, Psatma, the Narinadar, the WLW and Kelmomas are cray cray?
Worship and belief seem just as crazy in Earwa as they do in our world. "Having faith in ignorance" ... "prizing ignorance". Bakker constantly depicts it as errant madness. The difference is that this form of insanity grants temporal power to the things outside...

I don't think they are the same thing - though that is an interesting tack and perhaps something I'd not entertained because I'd not thought of it. It certainly is a prevalent bias in the Biblical World...

Lol, hmm... I will have to think about this. Shouldn't Cnaiur's perspective be ripe for examples of a God's agency? As per my arguments; Fate prompting Achamian to tell the lie about Saughlish, Sorweel's words being kicked from his lungs as Kellhus declares him Believer-King, Onkis telling Inrau to run, etc.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:39:18 pm
Quote from: The Tiger of Eumarna
DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHEN THIS IS COMING OUT?? I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:39:25 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol, I think we're all there with you, Tiger. Bakker had mentioned that he has been "camped on the outskirts of Golgotterath for awhile now, and it gets hard, sometimes, keeping things distinct, sorting the theoretical moods from the narrative, deciding what’s besieging what, and who’s storming whom," on the second last blog.

Whatever that means ;). I have a feeling the associations were meant to extend to his philosophic musings.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:39:31 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
The number of off topic posts:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: What Came Before on May 22, 2013, 08:39:41 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
I wish I was too damn high.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on June 05, 2013, 01:42:28 pm
And the contenders are...

1. Kellhus
2. Consult
3. Batman!
4. That's Not Ishual
5. Dunyain Did It To Themselves
6. Cishaurim
7. Moenghus the Elder
8. Moenghus the Elder (to create Dunyain Cishaurim)
9. Mekeritrig
10. Ishterebinth (Nonmen)
11. Wutteat

Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on June 05, 2013, 02:52:12 pm
All viable really. Except I think Batman would have trouble against a swarm of dunyain.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on June 05, 2013, 04:36:00 pm
Just went through the thread and collected them all.

For my money, I'm still guessing Dunyain did it themselves, or then Wutteat, even though the Consult have been looking for the Dunyain since TWP.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Somnambulist on July 04, 2013, 12:05:51 am
My money is on Kellhus himself.  He pretty much ripped apart portions of Sakarpus without breaking a sweat, so Ishual probably wouldn't have been able to withstand the meta-gnostic H-bomb he could unleash.  The deeper question for me is why?  The most obvious reasons have already been stated, but what about this?

The level of in-breeding that must have taken place in Ishual (a closed system) for 2,000 years would pretty much ensure that everyone's blood was mixed together.  I highly doubt there would be any 'pure' bloodlines there.  How could there be?  And why would the dunyain care to maintain separate ones?  So my postulation is that all dunyain in Ishual were, more or less, Anasurimbors.  Why else would the dunyain send Moenghus out on an errand, find that he's been corrupted, then exile him.  He obviously wasn't that important to the society.  Then, years later, he demands his son be sent to him.  Again, the dunyain send another Anasurimbor away.  Anasurimbors must have been ten-a-penny in Ishual.  :)  So, Kellhus, not needing the headache that would come from a village of Anasurimbors 'returning at the end of the world' prompted him to wipe them all out.

Anyway, that's my crackpot theory.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on July 04, 2013, 02:04:03 pm
Lol, some good thoughts, Somnambulist.

Gah! I can't believe the mystery Bakker's managed to walk with Ishual... Tantalizing!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on July 04, 2013, 03:47:43 pm
As far as crackpot theories go, thats pretty reasonable.
If it truly was Kellhus, that probably had something to do with it. Could have been that he knew that you can't really control a dunyain so better to kill them all than deal with that headache.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: locke on July 04, 2013, 04:49:23 pm
My money is on Kellhus himself.  He pretty much ripped apart portions of Sakarpus without breaking a sweat, so Ishual probably wouldn't have been able to withstand the meta-gnostic H-bomb he could unleash.  The deeper question for me is why?  The most obvious reasons have already been stated, but what about this?

The level of in-breeding that must have taken place in Ishual (a closed system) for 2,000 years would pretty much ensure that everyone's blood was mixed together.  I highly doubt there would be any 'pure' bloodlines there.  How could there be?  And why would the dunyain care to maintain separate ones?  So my postulation is that all dunyain in Ishual were, more or less, Anasurimbors.  Why else would the dunyain send Moenghus out on an errand, find that he's been corrupted, then exile him.  He obviously wasn't that important to the society.  Then, years later, he demands his son be sent to him.  Again, the dunyain send another Anasurimbor away.  Anasurimbors must have been ten-a-penny in Ishual.  :)  So, Kellhus, not needing the headache that would come from a village of Anasurimbors 'returning at the end of the world' prompted him to wipe them all out.

Anyway, that's my crackpot theory.

Here's a crackpot theory, Anasurimbor souls are more useful than mundane souls, so Kellhus has enslaved all the souls of the Dunyain into new dread machinery (ala the gate to the library).

Also, they needn't necessarily be all Anasurimbors, though your series makes sense, Charles Stross outlines a 'braiding' system of six-ish bloodlines in his Merchant series than manages to prevent too much inbreeding by deliberately controlling who is mated with who, and maintains familial identity.

hell for the Dunyain project of breeding, family line is probably more important than any other identity, because a genetic shorthand (family name) is useful to the breeding project.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on July 04, 2013, 05:33:49 pm
How many degrees of separation, as far as relation goes, are required to safely make offspring.

Half siblings?
Quarter?
8th?

Knowing that you could figure out, roughly, how many families it would take to create a pool of genetic diversity that wouldnt collapse into inbred, disease ridden, and unstable offspring that would destroy the population.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on July 04, 2013, 05:46:33 pm
Considering the evidence of defectives, I'd hazard that the Dunyain didn't achieve that balance, whatever it may be. Cool question though...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on July 04, 2013, 05:51:48 pm
With a closed genetic pool it would actually be impossible not to encounter some problems, and as time went on problems would increase. But there must have been some kind of strict regulation to prevent a total collapse.

I would guess that any in depth analysis of the Dunyain vagabonds that ended up at Ishual would probably show that there would be no way of keeping a population like that genetically viable for 2000 years :P. I don't care though, its still an interesting question.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Somnambulist on July 05, 2013, 09:30:13 am
My money is on Kellhus himself.  He pretty much ripped apart portions of Sakarpus without breaking a sweat, so Ishual probably wouldn't have been able to withstand the meta-gnostic H-bomb he could unleash.  The deeper question for me is why?  The most obvious reasons have already been stated, but what about this?

The level of in-breeding that must have taken place in Ishual (a closed system) for 2,000 years would pretty much ensure that everyone's blood was mixed together.  I highly doubt there would be any 'pure' bloodlines there.  How could there be?  And why would the dunyain care to maintain separate ones?  So my postulation is that all dunyain in Ishual were, more or less, Anasurimbors.  Why else would the dunyain send Moenghus out on an errand, find that he's been corrupted, then exile him.  He obviously wasn't that important to the society.  Then, years later, he demands his son be sent to him.  Again, the dunyain send another Anasurimbor away.  Anasurimbors must have been ten-a-penny in Ishual.  :)  So, Kellhus, not needing the headache that would come from a village of Anasurimbors 'returning at the end of the world' prompted him to wipe them all out.

Anyway, that's my crackpot theory.

Here's a crackpot theory, Anasurimbor souls are more useful than mundane souls, so Kellhus has enslaved all the souls of the Dunyain into new dread machinery (ala the gate to the library).

Also, they needn't necessarily be all Anasurimbors, though your series makes sense, Charles Stross outlines a 'braiding' system of six-ish bloodlines in his Merchant series than manages to prevent too much inbreeding by deliberately controlling who is mated with who, and maintains familial identity.

hell for the Dunyain project of breeding, family line is probably more important than any other identity, because a genetic shorthand (family name) is useful to the breeding project.

Great points.  Your arguments for control and retention of family names to keep their eugenics project viable make more sense than my over-simplification.  To scale my assumption back, then, should be to state that there were more Anasurimbors in Ishual than just Moe and Kel.  Possibly even children of Kellhus.  I think Moe was in his 20's when he sired Kel.  Kel was in his 30's when he left Ishual, so it stands to reason he would have sired at least one child.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on July 05, 2013, 02:24:56 pm
Oh Kellhus almost certainly had children, probably many. After all, they didn't send out their prodigal son and their own crowning achievement without first leaving behind some progeny to carry on his line. That could have been a motivator for Kell to kill them all: He could have feared that a true son of his own might someday surpass him like he surpassed his father. There can only be one.

btw locke, that creepy, a big moving machine with souls hooked in to it, powering some terrible slaughter machine. Sweet. Maybe the new Heron Spear won't be as compact, like a lasgun, but rather more like an artillery gun shelling out large swaths of light that decimate whole areas. We've already seen the inadequacies of even the Mandati's attempt to destroy the sranc masses with magic. They need something bigger.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Somnambulist on July 05, 2013, 08:12:10 pm
Wilshire:  Exactly  :)

Locke:  Agreed, awesome idea!  Might need a topic of it's own:  What Kind of Meta-Gnostic Nastiness Will Kellhus Call Down on the Consult?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on July 07, 2013, 01:02:14 pm
+1 Full-Dunyain Progeny of Kellhus.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: EkyannusIII on July 10, 2013, 06:19:06 pm
+1 Full-Dunyain Progeny of Kellhus.


An interesting idea.

How old is Saccarees? Is it ever mentioned? He was unheard of in trilogy one and then twenty years later is Grandmaster of the Mandate. I find it unlikely that a grown man could just join a School, it would raise questions about where he came from and how he was missed by the same people who found Akka et al.  Could he be young then? I wonder if his hair is blonde?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on July 10, 2013, 07:33:54 pm
This idea has been discussed here: Saccarees & the Dunyain (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=826.0)

I think the conclusion was that he probably wasnt related to Kellhus, but I don't really remember. You should read it and tell us what you think.

It would seem most discussion is on pages 1 and 3, we get off track on page 2. Some of those posts could be their own topic, something regarding a Strange Mark (from The Unholy Consult excerpt I heard)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on July 13, 2013, 06:42:28 pm
I'll voice my opinion again that Metagnostic Sorcerers abound among the Swayal and Mandate in TUC.
Title: Re: Why did Moenghus leave Ishual
Post by: The Sharmat on February 21, 2014, 03:15:49 am
One thing about the broken map case.  If it were broken for 2000 years  the map probably woulf have dissolved to the elements.  If it were broken for 20 years it ought to be okay.
This is a good observation that I've never connected before.

Yeah, now I'm fairlly convinced that Aurax found Ishual and nuked it.
Title: Re: Re: Why did Moenghus leave Ishual
Post by: mrganondorf on February 21, 2014, 03:06:03 pm
Whoever blew it up, they could have a shitload of goodies.  Think what the Consult could do with a hoard of compulsion-slave dunyain.  The information and the bodies.  Hope Kellhus thought of that one.
Title: Re: Re: Why did Moenghus leave Ishual
Post by: The Sharmat on February 22, 2014, 06:19:33 am
If the thought occurred to him, then I'd say it was probably Kellhus who blew it up, to prevent such an eventuality.
Title: Re: Re: Why did Moenghus leave Ishual
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 05:31:36 pm
It was probably a matter of who got there first. Wutteat, Consult, The Dunyain, and Kellhus all had reason to blow it up. Lots of plausible theories, but who got the prize? I'd say Wutteat got there too late, so I rule him out simply because of the timeline. As for the other three, I can't decide. The Consult had a long time to look, The Dunyain may have realized something was wrong, and Kellhus could have done it before he liberated Shimeh or at any point after.

Last few posts should probably be moved to Who Destroyed the Dunyain Monastery.
Title: Re: Re: Why did Moenghus leave Ishual
Post by: mrganondorf on February 25, 2014, 05:58:41 pm
If the thought occurred to him, then I'd say it was probably Kellhus who blew it up, to prevent such an eventuality.

What a waste!  It's hard to stomach the thought of no one using the dunyain!!!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Kosoter on March 05, 2014, 04:53:35 pm
I just can't see Kellhus not finding a use for them. Any use. Even just tools or breeding stock. He clearly has need of things he can bonk successfully enough to make babies. He needs people who can manipulate others for him at a lower level when he's not around. He needs assassins. He needs spies. He needs guards (for important dudes). He needs people that can see skinspies. He needs sorcerers and being the Few seems to be genetic...so some surely must be good candidates. I just can't imagine him being so...unimaginative as to go in and kill everyone and blow everything up. Maybe he took the useful ones and destroyed the rest.

I definitely think he'd have gone back there at some point. It just doesn't make sense for him not to for any of the reasons I listed or more. He needs to make babies above all else and it's pretty hard for him...and there's far more mundane uses for some weaker Dunyain. He just needs to convince them he's totally awesome at the logos and they'd never even think to betray him. There's also a few characters here and there that might be Dunyain and acting out his will as it is.

That leaves me to believe the Consult found it and smashed it so Kellhus couldn't do it first. It wouldn't take much really. No matter how amazing Dunyain are at fighting or bullshitting, they can't really do much against even just a couple of sorcerers without chorae. If they even had any chorae somehow (killing invading sranc?), they'd probably be totally ignorant as to its use. I wouldn't rule out the Consult breaking a few of them and using them for their own games but still, I think they'd just wreck it if they found it. If not them then who? A raving Erratic that just happened to show up?

I think the scroll being opened hints at a very specific person finding it. If it was the Consult, they'd probably either take it with them, rape someone with it or both. Also if the Consult found the scroll, why'd they not let Wutteat out to cause some trouble for the Ordeal? They're gathering up yokes of sranc, why not have a badass zombie dragon? I don't think it could have been them. Why would Big Moe or Kellhus need the map anyway? Surely their memory is good enough to find the way home? If not, there's always magic or tracking skills to figure it out. Who else even knows about the library? Who else even knows about the Dunyain? I thought originally it could have been Cnaiür but I still think he died in the mansion way back when. If he was working with the Consult though...the above points come into play. He's the only person for me that isn't really the Consult but who even knows of the Dunyain. I just can't think of anyone else that makes sense. It could be the case has nothing to do with the destruction of the monastery. At this point I still think it's a random Erratic that felt like being a dick and there's nothing big and meaningful to it at all.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: EkyannusIII on March 05, 2014, 06:20:20 pm
I just can't see Kellhus not finding a use for them. Any use. Even just tools or breeding stock. He clearly has need of things he can bonk successfully enough to make babies. He needs people who can manipulate others for him at a lower level when he's not around. He needs assassins. He needs spies. He needs guards (for important dudes). He needs people that can see skinspies. He needs sorcerers and being the Few seems to be genetic...so some surely must be good candidates. I just can't imagine him being so...unimaginative as to go in and kill everyone and blow everything up. Maybe he took the useful ones and destroyed the rest.

I think of Kellhus returning to Ishual in terms of his conversation with Papa Moe.  Kellhus knows that the Dunyain's positivistic/materialistic/deterministic outlook on life is factually wrong and reductionistic, and that the world runs on principles very different from those the Dunyian are comfortable with.  He also knows that per the baked in morality of Earwa the Dunyain are more or less damned.  And he knows that given the Conditioning the Dunyain will, once they find out about the Outside and all it implies, be forced to choose between reconciling themselves to becoming "more than Dunyain" as he has by the end of TTT, or siding with the Consult and attempting to close the world so as to master circumstance and free themselves from divine judgement. He also infers that many Dunyain, exemplified by Papa Moe, will not be willing to accept the degree to which Dunyanic philosophy is wrong, and that they will end up siding with the Consult. So Kellhus gives them a choice - join me or die; and the Dunyain have themselves a schism. The unreconstructed sect who refuse the new ways are destroyed so they can't strengthen the Consult; the Kellian sect come with him to the new empire and become highly placed spies and grandees in his empire.

Also, this part made me smile:

Quote
He needs assassins. He needs spies. He needs guards (for important dudes).


A Dunyain or even half-Dunyain guard would be perfect, precisely because their near peak strength and stamina would both make them highly effective at protecting their charges and highly effective at killing them if Kellhus decides they are no longer worth protecting. So they are guarding their assignments and Kellhus from their assignments, all at once.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: locke on March 05, 2014, 06:57:44 pm
I still love the idea that in the second paragraph of TDTCB there is the line, "no furnace hearted dragon had torn down its gates" and that this was foreshadowing the fate of Ishual, torn down by the furnace hearted father of dragons himself.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 04:51:24 am
...

As per the conversation with Moenghus, Kellhus thinks that Dunyain who do not have his... particular experiences, who remain Dunyain, will ultimately side with the Consult. Making them a threat.

So Kellhus gives them a choice - join me or die; and the Dunyain have themselves a schism. The unreconstructed sect who refuse the new ways are destroyed so they can't strengthen the Consult; the Kellian sect come with him to the new empire and become highly placed spies and grandees in his empire.

+1

Also, I know there is the "Doom, should you find me broken" inscription but isn't it most likely that the map-case broke in the crazy Quya/Wizard/Wracu battle that just went down?

I still love the idea that in the second paragraph of TDTCB there is the line, "no furnace hearted dragon had torn down its gates" and that this was foreshadowing the fate of Ishual, torn down by the furnace hearted father of dragons himself.

Wow. Thanks, lockesnow. I always love the idea that Achamian disturbing Wutteat led to the destruction of Ishual but that quote is truly prophetic.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 01:03:55 am
No way that the map is broken in the fight!  The break must mean something!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Triskele on March 09, 2014, 02:19:44 am
Wow.  The idea that Wutteat destroyed it is hilarious. 
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Aural on March 09, 2014, 11:29:22 am
What if Kellhus implanted a fake map in the Coffers?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 09, 2014, 01:25:00 pm
Wow.  The idea that Wutteat destroyed it is hilarious. 

+1 - truly awesome.

What if Kellhus implanted a fake map in the Coffers?

Could be...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: locke on March 09, 2014, 05:47:19 pm
No way that the map is broken in the fight!  The break must mean something!
Ever do the puny minds of world born men seek to find meaning and patterns in all that transpires. ;)


The map was opened recently, otherwise the parchment would not have survived long unsealed and unprotected from the elements.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 10, 2014, 12:17:13 pm
Good call, lockesnow.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 10, 2014, 08:31:06 pm
No way that the map is broken in the fight!  The break must mean something!
Ever do the puny minds of world born men seek to find meaning and patterns in all that transpires. ;)


The map was opened recently, otherwise the parchment would not have survived long unsealed and unprotected from the elements.

Ouch!  Time to double down--Locke is Bakker and he's trying to throw us off the trail!  The map is more meaningful than evar!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 12, 2014, 04:25:16 pm
@ Kosoter - You got me thinking that Kellhus first priority, after getting warp power and wrapping up things in Shimeh (or before? no reason to think that the warp in Kyudea was his first) was to get back to Ishual and start bonking.

Twist in TUC is a dying Kayutas watching as what looks like a hoard of twins slam into the Consult ranks!

Really like your idea of taking "the useful ones."  I had thought that Kellhus would think a full-blooded dunyain too dangerous to keep around.  But if he rounded up defectives and babies, then denied them the training that he benefitted from, he could be sure that there powers would not match his own.

---------------------------------

@Nskoghar - I like the idea of a fake map, but what if it's like this--Moe or Kel planted a real map that would detail a specific approach.  That way the hidden watchers would recognize Akka and prepare the way.  Is he going into the most conditioned place ever?

---------------------------------

It would be cool if Bakker gives us a scene where the most badass Dunyain are simply swept away because they have no expertise in sorcery.  Would fit with Bakker blind-spot conceits.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2014, 04:43:15 pm
Fake map is a solid idea, though that would mean Achamian didn't find Ishual at all and that he might still successfully complete his task. Considering how he has failed at literally everything so far, I think he found ruined Ishual. But your idea about following a specific path is plausible. No reason decimated Ishual isn't the final destination.

Wherever he is, it will probably be entirely conditioned.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 23, 2014, 05:52:13 pm
I had been thinking that the residual mark would tell Akka a lot about whoever attacked Ishual.  But if the whole thing was done with the psukhe/markless divine magic, the perpetrators could cover their tracks by having a gnostic/anagogic/quyan go over the whole thing once the job is done.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 24, 2014, 01:45:48 pm
I had been thinking that the residual mark would tell Akka a lot about whoever attacked Ishual.  But if the whole thing was done with the psukhe/markless divine magic, the perpetrators could cover their tracks by having a gnostic/anagogic/quyan go over the whole thing once the job is done.

+1

It's interesting, I don't think this has been considered yet but Wilshire paraphrases Serwa as talking about some ruins destroyed by a strange mark. Maybe these are the same ruins? Maybe they are a pair of recent ruins? Too many possibilities!!!

Wherever he is, it will probably be entirely conditioned.

+1
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 24, 2014, 03:12:53 pm
Maybe, but again, I do believe Serwe and friends where on the far side of the mountains.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 24, 2014, 04:03:12 pm
So attacks which destroyed a pair of ruins?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on March 24, 2014, 05:41:56 pm
Asking who destroyed the monastery is like asking who killed JFK. I mean who wouldn't want them dead. The Consult has motive, Kellhus has motive, hell even the Gods have motive. It's just a matter of who got there first. My money is on Kellhus.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Somnambulist on March 24, 2014, 06:08:43 pm
Asking who destroyed the monastery is like asking who killed JFK. I mean who wouldn't want them dead. The Consult has motive, Kellhus has motive, hell even the Gods have motive. It's just a matter of who got there first. My money is on Kellhus.

Agreed.  While Kel may have had designs for the children of the dunyain (i.e., to train for whatever purposes he concocted), I think all the 'conditioned' adults would have been too much of a headache for him to try to bring around to his cause.  He had to eliminate that threat.  Also, I just don't buy the Wutteat option.  Dead, blind, recently torn up by a Quya and a War Cant Master...  sure, I think he has the power to do something like that, but why would he?  And if a blind dragon could find Ishual...  there's a joke in there somewhere.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 24, 2014, 07:19:17 pm
And if a blind dragon could find Ishual...  there's a joke in there somewhere.

 ;D

But there is so much irony if Wutteat managed to find them when the consult have been freaking out for the better part of 30 years trying to find the nest to no avail.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 25, 2014, 10:25:40 am
Perhaps, there is simply a bunch of back story we don't know about at this point.

For instance, SOA got me thinking that Kellhus might certainly leave a strange mark if he is another Titirga. I actually don't really believe anymore, if I did, that Kellhus would possibly seek out the Dunyain just to destroy them. Kellhus entered a world ruled by worldborn - any Dunyain who emerges from Ishual doesn't stand a chance.

EDIT:

To add, I'm still all about Wutteat destroying Ishual. I'm not sure blind means blind in Earwa and torching Ishual would take nothing of Wutteat's strength. He did just lose a fight to a Quya and a Wizard... I guess... so maybe he just wanted to spaz and destroy something on his way back to Golgotterath.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 25, 2014, 10:56:28 am
NOT WUTTEAT!!!  Derived can't shit without permission!  Dragon W is another lying liar who works the will of his masters!

Kellhus leave a mark like the way Titirga's looked?  If anyone can manipulate the appearance of a residual mark, leave it to a dunyain.

Akka is going to find gnosis marks everywhere.  Not from Kellhus--the other dunyain decided not to tell him, they never did abandon sorcery.  They've been perfecting it for 2000 years.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 25, 2014, 11:05:48 am
According to the story, Wutteat is the only Wracu who isn't derived.

Kellhus could leave a mark that is different, that is all I wanted to imply. Not necessarily "like Titirga" - which actually means nothing because we never saw how exactly his sorcery cutting the world was any different from the Gnosis.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 25, 2014, 11:16:32 am
Personalized destruction, by Kellhus.

Everyone will know it when he's destroyed your castle.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on March 25, 2014, 11:44:53 am
Wutteat would be more fun, because in this way Aka would be responsible for the destruction of the answers he seeks, but i vote for Kellhus because what makes him what he is that he leaves nothing to chance. The Dunyain are just to dangerous to be left breathing. 
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 25, 2014, 12:18:07 pm
oooohhhh, I hadn't thought of Ishual as freshly destroyed.  Akka > Wutteat > No Ishual.  Like.

As far as Kellhus regarding the Dunyain as too dangerous to be left behind:

1) Really want to see how far Bakker is going with the Plato's Republic thing in that the guardians/rulers are absolutely conditioned to act in the interest of the city.

2) I suspect that the dunyain and/or old moe have previously calculated how dangerous it was to let kellhus out :)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 25, 2014, 12:44:00 pm
+1 Akka causing his own misfortune.

MG, if the anyone tried to calculate how dangerous Kellhus was before he left, I submit that they were wrong. I don't think the Dunyain in Ishual thought he would make it to Shimeh, and I think Moe thought he could use him as his pawn. Whatever Kellhus has become, I don't think anyone thought he would go so far.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on March 25, 2014, 01:21:25 pm
If they didn't think he'd be able to complete the mission, then surely they sent contingencies...

I'm just peddling the unwarranted theory that K never stopped being someone's pawn!  :)  I bet TUC ends with revelations of who and the near fulfillment of their designs then the happening of shit no one expected.

I'm going to go on with it even if its not in TUC--dunyain successfully disenchanted the world and ages later conditioned a fantasy writer to tell their story to begin preparing the world for their coming.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on March 25, 2014, 02:49:03 pm
+1 Akka causing his own misfortune.

MG, if the anyone tried to calculate how dangerous Kellhus was before he left, I submit that they were wrong. I don't think the Dunyain in Ishual thought he would make it to Shimeh, and I think Moe thought he could use him as his pawn. Whatever Kellhus has become, I don't think anyone thought he would go so far.

I believe they couldn't predict what Kellhus would become because their causality chains didn't factor the outside influence when predicting effects. They had no reason to believe that Kellhus would fail, or become a threat to them.

[EDIT]
Causing your own misfortune like Aka is a classic example of a feedback loop which humans mistakenly attribute to bad luck. Example:
You have an important appointment at work -> you don't want to be late -> you drive fast -> the police stops you for a speed limit violation -> you get delayed -> you miss the appointment.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 26, 2014, 11:58:53 am
oooohhhh, I hadn't thought of Ishual as freshly destroyed.  Akka > Wutteat > No Ishual.  Like.

As far as Kellhus regarding the Dunyain as too dangerous to be left behind:

1) Really want to see how far Bakker is going with the Plato's Republic thing in that the guardians/rulers are absolutely conditioned to act in the interest of the city.

Only the producers and the guardians are conditioned to act in the interest of the city. And I don't think we've yet seen the Philosopher-Kings/Queens of the Dunyain yet (unless we've glimpsed their expressivelessness in the Pragma).

+1 Akka causing his own misfortune.

MG, if the anyone tried to calculate how dangerous Kellhus was before he left, I submit that they were wrong. I don't think the Dunyain in Ishual thought he would make it to Shimeh, and I think Moe thought he could use him as his pawn. Whatever Kellhus has become, I don't think anyone thought he would go so far.

Dunyain Nostradamus knew. The next unopened missive reminds the Dunyain of folly. Gall. I really want there to be Dunyain Nostradamus.

[EDIT]
Causing your own misfortune like Aka is a classic example of a feedback loop which humans mistakenly attribute to bad luck. Example:
You have an important appointment at work -> you don't want to be late -> you drive fast -> the police stops you for a speed limit violation -> you get delayed -> you miss the appointment.

+1
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2014, 04:17:38 pm
No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.


I wasn't implying that Kellhus would fail his mission, only that the mission as he knew it might have been a lie right from the start. If the Dunyain truely tried to send him to Shimeh, then they probably guessed that he would make it, but I just don't think that was their initial intent.

Like SOA mentioned, as far as we now the Dunyain don't factor in metaphysics into their causality chain. I'm saying that regardless of what the initial intent of sending Kellhus into the world was, none of them could have correctly predicted Kellhus becoming what he is. Which, imo, includes some Hari Seldon/Dunyain Nostradamus.

The only way they could have foreseen Kellhus' ascension  would be if they were working closely with either the Nonmen, the Consult (extremely unlikely), a select few World-Born (also unlikely), or if they had secret Dunyain agents in the world already.

Even if the Pragma (or whatever the ruling caste is) knew about magic and the outside, I still have some doubt that they could have done it... Though I would allow for them being able to predict it all if, and only if, the end-game was to forge Kellhus into the only Self Moving Soul.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 27, 2014, 09:45:34 pm
No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.

Dunyain Nostra-Sheldon ;)!

Like SOA mentioned, as far as we now the Dunyain don't factor in metaphysics into their causality chain. I'm saying that regardless of what the initial intent of sending Kellhus into the world was, none of them could have correctly predicted Kellhus becoming what he is. Which, imo, includes some Hari Seldon/Dunyain Nostradamus.

Well, we have it on pretty good authority - the first prologue - that the bulk of the Dunyain are ignoring some foundational variables of the greater world in their quest for purity in isolation.

But Dunyain Haridamus!

The only way they could have foreseen Kellhus' ascension  would be if they were working closely with either the Nonmen, the Consult (extremely unlikely), a select few World-Born (also unlikely), or if they had secret Dunyain agents in the world already.

I've previously posited the first and the fourth seems likely. Previous iterations of Kellhus and Moenghus let out into the world?

Even if the Pragma (or whatever the ruling caste is) knew about magic and the outside, I still have some doubt that they could have done it... Though I would allow for them being able to predict it all if, and only if, the end-game was to forge Kellhus into the only Self Moving Soul.

Or Kellhus symbiosis?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 28, 2014, 05:20:28 pm
No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.

Dunyain Nostra-Sheldon ;)!

Sorry but Sheldon is a character from a TV show, Seldon is the character from the book.

My only reservation would be that its possible the Dunyain where planning for the long-game right from the start. Not particularly likely, but possible.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 29, 2014, 12:38:56 pm
Seldon... I guess Sheldon is appropriate :P.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 02, 2014, 01:12:28 pm
Going off the deep end: Ishual is *entirely* made up for Kellhus' conditioning.  There are no Dunyain, it's just the fiction to get the right kind of fanatic.  Akka will be finding out things Kellhus is entirely blind to because the Dunyain narrative is stamped too deep into mind (just like it's stamped too deep into mine to take my own crazy seriously).

Upside: huge twist for the reader!  Ultimate wtf moment for Kellhus when his plans foil at the end of TUC.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 03, 2014, 07:20:50 pm
New crazy: Ishual destroyed by sranc...from within!  That first batch of sranc that attacked years ago were subdued and put into breeding cages.  These Dunyain Sranc became too powerful and clever and brought the whole thing down.  They are going to surprise everyone since they serve neither Kellhus nor the Black Heaven.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on April 03, 2014, 08:13:40 pm
I'll allow from within, i.e from the depth, but I can't go along with crazy breeding program. If Ishual was built on an old Mansion, its possible sranc simply (finally) made it to the surface, see: Cil'Aujas.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 30, 2014, 12:49:38 am
I'll allow from within, i.e from the depth, but I can't go along with crazy breeding program. If Ishual was built on an old Mansion, its possible sranc simply (finally) made it to the surface, see: Cil'Aujas.

Young Dunyain surviving in the labyrinth = equals surviving sranc that filter in from down below?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on April 30, 2014, 12:22:55 pm
Read the prologue for TDTCB recently (I'm almost through the book again): the Dunyain who receive Moenghus the Elder's dream messages meet in the Thousand Thousand Halls, implying that they live and hold counsel there.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 30, 2014, 02:34:59 pm
Dunyain counseling in absolute darkness does seem fitting--the dark would seem to isolate a lot of style from content.  Dunyains just exchange propositions in flat voices in the dark.

I wonder if Mimara will hear them the way she saw images from Cil-Aujus' past?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: The Sharmat on May 02, 2014, 07:40:45 am
I hadn't considered that it might be a Topos from all the torture and eugenics. Still, I'd think Kellhus would have remembered something like that.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 02, 2014, 11:11:10 am
I doubt it too.  I think causes of the topoi at Cil Aujis, Golgotteroth and Mengedda were deliberate.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on May 04, 2014, 04:52:58 pm
Read the prologue for TDTCB recently (I'm almost through the book again): the Dunyain who receive Moenghus the Elder's dream messages meet in the Thousand Thousand Halls, implying that they live and hold counsel there.

Hold counsel yeah, don't know if that implies that they live down there though.
Dunyain counseling in absolute darkness does seem fitting--the dark would seem to isolate a lot of style from content.  Dunyains just exchange propositions in flat voices in the dark.
Reminds me of Second Foundation. They had whole meetings with groups of people without speaking words, just looking at eachother faces. You described the opposite, but to much the same effect.



Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on May 05, 2014, 01:25:01 pm
Reminds me of Second Foundation. They had whole meetings with groups of people without speaking words, just looking at eachother faces. You described the opposite, but to much the same effect.

I really enjoy how much we read into the Asimov connections now.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on May 05, 2014, 04:57:12 pm
Whether or not they are intentional, parallels can be drawn to all the great works.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on May 05, 2014, 08:36:04 pm
Damn, I've put off reading Foundation for too long.  Is there a thread for listing the fiction that influenced Bakker?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on May 05, 2014, 11:34:48 pm
You should read the first one at least. Its a classic ;). But the list of "influences" is relatively short, as far as I know. Dune being one of the primary, straight from the horses mouth. Outside of that, I'd guess you have your habitual offenders and maybe a unique one or two others thrown in there.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on May 06, 2014, 12:19:58 am
In my head I have: Dune, Tolkien, Asimov, Cormac...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on May 08, 2014, 07:03:39 pm
Is there a thread for listing the fiction that influenced Bakker?

There should be if one can't be found. I know that "As readers, how are we conditioned? (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=938.0)" treads those kind of thoughts.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on May 08, 2014, 09:52:05 pm
I doubt it too.  I think causes of the topoi at Cil Aujis, Golgotteroth and Mengedda were deliberate.

I think I like this, but do you mean that each individual topoi was created as some kind of attempt at something or that someone is deliberately creating topoi throughout the world--when there are enough and in the right spots the topoi will align and do something extra neat?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 08, 2014, 10:35:53 pm
First option, MG.  Second one is a bit too 'grand conspiracy' even for me ;)
I suspect that whatever happened at Viri involved creating a topos and that attracted the Inchies' attention and they (perhaps accidently) tried to drive the ark right into it.
Topoi at Mengedda and Golgotteroth are the result of Consult efforts to control/understand the barrier between the modes of existence.
Cil Aujis was perhaps another non-man experiment based on what they were trying to do at Viri.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on May 08, 2014, 10:52:04 pm
I love it!  Nin'janjin is the culprit behind it all!  Father of the first topoi, will he make the last???

Really I do want to see him in TUC because he's like the ultimate intact/erratic benchmark since he was the first nonman to get the life extension treatment.

So do you think TUC unfolds towards an attempt to create the perfect topoi?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Madness on May 09, 2014, 02:59:26 pm
Depends if Anarcane Ground is ever going to be explained :P.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: locke on May 09, 2014, 06:33:30 pm
I love it!  Nin'janjin is the culprit behind it all! 

Ah yes, that's one of Nerdanel herself's originals, I don't think we've seen any posts from her since it was revealed Cleric was NOT Nin'janjin.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Aural on May 09, 2014, 08:59:13 pm
It was set to self destruct once the Dunyain project has been accomplished.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 09, 2014, 10:38:40 pm
So do you think TUC unfolds towards an attempt to create the perfect topoi?
Mengedda Mark II.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the Dunyain monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on May 13, 2014, 03:59:54 pm
I love it!  Nin'janjin is the culprit behind it all! 

Ah yes, that's one of Nerdanel herself's originals, I don't think we've seen any posts from her since it was revealed Cleric was NOT Nin'janjin.

I showed up too late to the party!  I've got to read her stuff, is there a Collected Nerdanels of Nerdanel?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on July 03, 2014, 04:33:31 am
Rereading the end of WLW, if Wutteat went up against Ishual, then there MUST be survivors.  Can't believe that Dunyain intelligence couldn't find some way to hide from a BLIND dragon.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on July 03, 2014, 09:04:32 pm
If it was Wutteat, then yes, I agree. Blind or no, the Thousand Thousand Halls would have provided shelter from his bulk. He would simply be to big to hunt and kill each one. Only a well planned attack by several weapon races, or several schoolmen, could have managed to kill them all (I assume the schoolmen have some kind of "detect life" spell).
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on July 03, 2014, 10:11:54 pm
I'm going to guess that Ishual was destroyed by sorcerous means because of the foreshadowed bit about Akka seeing the difference between gnostic and anagogic sorcery.  I bet he'll sees signs of either gnostic (the kind he's familiar with) or something foreign like Quyan/Aporetic/Inchoroi brand gnosis.  Mimara might could help out with the traces if they are Aporetic.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Aural on July 03, 2014, 10:19:24 pm
The only reason I doubt the Wutteät destroyed it theory is the feeling I have that nothing random is happening in this series. Everything has been calculated by someone somewhere If not Kellhus, then the Dunyain themselves.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on July 03, 2014, 10:26:49 pm
Pretty much the only reason I think its possible is because it would me Akka basically caused it himself, and I think there is just enough irony there for it to be possible. I agree, however, that it is seems more likely to have happened because someone caused it far more directly.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on July 04, 2014, 05:43:48 pm
Pretty much the only reason I think its possible is because it would me Akka basically caused it himself, and I think there is just enough irony there for it to be possible. I agree, however, that it is seems more likely to have happened because someone caused it far more directly.

I like the irony in that and it has some tantalizing implications:

Akka/Cleric causes Wutteat to flee Sauglish, Wutteat is heading home to the Ark?, sniffs/hears the Dunyain residence, descends and wreaks havoc, can tell there's something uncanny about the place, flies to Golgotterath to report, Consult releases a force to investigate, the forward scouting party of that force is what Mimara and Akka flee (that's why those sranc have chorae)...

Akka and Mim find Ishual, are soon besieged by Consult force, flee into the depths of the Thousand Thousand Halls, meet Dunyain, everyone heads off up the Ishterebinth tunnel with sranc on their heels (reminding us of Cil-Aujus).

PLUS!  The investigating force will be headed by some cool Consult member like Mekeritrig, Nin'janjin, or Aurax.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Francis Buck on August 10, 2014, 08:15:54 pm
I just can't see Kellhus not finding a use for them. Any use. Even just tools or breeding stock. He clearly has need of things he can bonk successfully enough to make babies. He needs people who can manipulate others for him at a lower level when he's not around. He needs assassins. He needs spies. He needs guards (for important dudes). He needs people that can see skinspies. He needs sorcerers and being the Few seems to be genetic...so some surely must be good candidates. I just can't imagine him being so...unimaginative as to go in and kill everyone and blow everything up. Maybe he took the useful ones and destroyed the rest.

I think the issue for me with this line of reasoning is that, in reality, we don't know if Kellhus needs those resources. Who says he needs any more Dunyain? If Kellhus truly has seen the Shortest Path (which I interpret as him becoming the God), and everything -- or at least most of -- what is happening is due to his own planning, then he really needs nothing more than, well, what he needs. Kellhus does not operate the way a normal person does. He wouldn't bother gathering resources he doesn't require if they aren't necessary to achieve his goal, and so far we see no reason why he needs the other Dunyain to achieve that goal. Of course, this applies to virtually everything about Kellhus and his plans, post-Circumfixion. Why didn't he leave any Chorae in the New Empire? Surely it makes logical sense to have left some, no? But that's the point. Kellhus's "logic" is beyond that of a normal human. If Kellhus really is in control, then nothing is by accident. Why didn't Kellhus make greater advances in technology to better arm the Ordeal? Because he didn't need to. He saw the Path, and now he is walking it. Everything is "going according to plan". So really, it's impossible to tell what Kellhus did or did not NEED until we see what he's actually trying to do, and if he achieves it. If Kellhus fails, then the conversation becomes one of "what he did wrong", and then we can start talking about what he should of/would of/could of. But if Kellhus does achieve his goal, then nothing else matters.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 12, 2014, 06:29:54 am
I'll further that.
Moenghus requested only one Dunyain - his son. So by both his and Kellhus' appraisal, only one is required for the purposes of TTT.  Adding more Dunyain probably only serves to enlarge the chances of a struggle for primacy, evidence being Moenghus' fate.

Incidentaly, I think that it hasn't been noted by anyone that the name of Ansurimbor is probably borne by the majority of the Dunyain by the time of AM and AK because the original scion was probably prime breeding stock. Assuming that the Dunyain carefully track and control successful lines whilst limiting the effects of breeding closely related individuals (to avoid inbreeding and crazy mutations), I think it's reasonable to assume that at least 50% of them are direct descendants.  I'm pretty sketchy about such things, so do correct my assumptions if you know more.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on August 18, 2014, 01:28:26 pm
Yeah if you look at what happened to both the Dunyain that ended up in the world, and even the 1/2 dunyain, I can see why Kellhus wouldn't want more. They are hard to condition, and the Dunyain live in a black-and-white world, meaning that either you agree with them completely or you are wrong. Kellhus might not have the time/energy/need to risk having a cadre of Dunyain subverting him at all times.

As for the bloodlines, I've made my arguments elsewhere, but basically all the Dunyain would be related but not to a huge extent (with careful breeding controls). Now, the surname question is interesting to me.

It seems very un-Dunyain to have a surname.
Not sure how useful the patriarchal way of the woman taking the man's name is, especially for the dunyain. The name would be meaningless after 2000 years, since all Dunyain would trace back their ancestry to the Anasurimbor Scion. There certainly aren't enough Dunyain that they need the surname to differentiate peoples, and I doubt there is much of a family structure to warrant the name either.

The only useful thing I can think of for the surname is to denote current breeding statistics, where the surname is simply assigned to each generation based on their specific genetic make-up. Something along the lines of, Dunyain child XXY exhibits phenotypically Anasurimbor traits and/or was breed to have specific traits common to that line, and therefore his assigned name is Anasurimbor XXY.
Even then,  though, its unlikely that any of them have a particular attachment to their name, and it just seems a bit absurd to think that they carry that name around with them in their daily life.
Maybe Anasurimbor is actually a title given to the most proficient child  of each passing "class", and has nothing to do with bloodlines. But, again, why bother? Its just a name. A word used for control.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on August 26, 2014, 04:11:28 pm
I second this!

Quote
It seems very un-Dunyain to have a surname.

It makes me think that the senior Dunyain were conditioning Kellhus from the beginning to go out into the world, sewing the seeds to make him believe he is the harbinger/savior.

I don't see why Kellhus couldn't use other Dunyain.  He wouldn't be meeting them as equals because of the gnosis.  Perhaps we would be inclined to kill off the Pragma and others, but there would be a lot of defectives that would be useful and manipulable. 

For my own part, I think they destroyed Ishual themselves shortly after Kellhus left to convince him that he was the only one whenever he would teleport back to visit/report/convert/whatever.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 01:14:38 am
The only reason I doubt the Wutteät destroyed it theory is the feeling I have that nothing random is happening in this series. Everything has been calculated by someone somewhere If not Kellhus, then the Dunyain themselves.
You say this, but many things have transpired by accident outside of Dunyain calculation. They are not Gods. They're not quite human, but they're not Gods.

One of the most important events in the series, the unmasking of the Consult skin-spies, happens purely by accident. The entire thing comes about because a highly paranoid Emperor just happens to notice Kellhus scrutinizing The-Thing-Called-Skeos. The fallout from this affects the entire series, but it was not by the calculated action of a Dunyain or the Consult. Just an accidental glance at the wrong time from an extremely paranoid man.

I'll further that.
Moenghus requested only one Dunyain - his son. So by both his and Kellhus' appraisal, only one is required for the purposes of TTT.  Adding more Dunyain probably only serves to enlarge the chances of a struggle for primacy, evidence being Moenghus' fate.

Incidentaly, I think that it hasn't been noted by anyone that the name of Ansurimbor is probably borne by the majority of the Dunyain by the time of AM and AK because the original scion was probably prime breeding stock. Assuming that the Dunyain carefully track and control successful lines whilst limiting the effects of breeding closely related individuals (to avoid inbreeding and crazy mutations), I think it's reasonable to assume that at least 50% of them are direct descendants.  I'm pretty sketchy about such things, so do correct my assumptions if you know more.
After two thousand years of inbreeding within a likely very small and completely isolated population, it would take a tremendous concerted effort to avoid literally everyone in Ishual being a direct descendant of the original Anasurimbor in the sample. Given enough time, your descendants are either everyone, or no one (See: the tremendous number of direct descendants of Genghis Khan, a fact that is often stated as if it were somehow remarkable when it is in fact true of a great deal of historical figures of sufficient age. A tremendous number of Europeans are directly descended from Charlemagne, for example.)

That said, if they continued only using the male line for transmission of the family name, and practiced very limited breeding and heavy culling of population due to eugenics (all of which seems likely) many or most of them would not bear the name Anasurimbor.

I imagine that Kellhus was far from the only Anasurimbor at Ishual though, yes. And any unaccounted for Anasurimbor is a potential threat to Kellhus' image. I strongly suspect that Kellhus is the one that destroyed Ishual. He would likely estimate that if the Dunyain were to discover what was happening in the world, they would side with the Consult, as he believed his father would. This is not something he can allow. The threat must be eliminated, and the cost of doing is small. As long as the chance of this happening is >0%, Kellhus must teleport to Ishual and nuke it thoroughly.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on September 03, 2014, 09:17:00 pm
My Dunyain bloodline thoughts here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=993.0).

I really hope something other than hand-waving explains the whole problem with the Anasurimbor thing.

I agree that if anyone really knew the Dunyain existed, it wouldn't be tough to figure out what we did, that "all" of them are Anasurimbor. Like you say, too easy for Kellhus not to do it.

If it was Kellhus, I'd guess that most, if not all, ended up dead before they even knew he was there. Teleport in when most of them as asleep, nuke the whole place. Or, more tastefully, murder them 1 by 1, assassin style. Either way, unless there was a huge piece of the Dunyain hierarchy hidden from Kellhus when he was there, its unlikely any were left alive.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 04, 2014, 08:54:37 am
Well, I guess it depends on the naming conventions they used.  A certain number of degrees of genelogical tracking where you get to be called Anasurimbor.  Or perhaps a designation of natural skill level - i.e. only the elite students are "Anasurimbors'.

Interesting that Moe called for his son. Given the patriachal systems of the Three Seas a male would be far more useful for TTT.  But maybe Kellhus has a far more talented sister?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 04, 2014, 09:30:51 am
Moenghus had been gone so long he'd have no way of knowing the relative talents of his children.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wic on September 04, 2014, 09:50:48 am
Though I wonder how much information he could glean from them if he invaded their dreams.

And now I'm wondering if it was simply a plot contrivance or if there was a particular reason Moe summoned the son he didn't know much about.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 04, 2014, 10:01:51 am
his son, being a direct blood relation, was far more likely to be one of the Few than any given random Dunyain
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: SilentRoamer on September 04, 2014, 01:22:07 pm
his son, being a direct blood relation, was far more likely to be one of the Few than any given random Dunyain

I personally suspect all, or a significant majority of the Dunayin were descended from a limited number of familial lines. Literally thousands of little Anasurimbors running around. Add to this the Dunyain methods of dealing with "defects" (parallels to the Abortion Pits here) and I suspect they are a majority.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 04, 2014, 03:25:40 pm
Oh they were inbred as hell, but still most of their numbers didn't seem to be among the Few so either those genes are fairly recessive, or something about Dunyain eugenics selected against it preferentially.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on September 05, 2014, 05:32:43 pm
his son, being a direct blood relation, was far more likely to be one of the Few than any given random Dunyain

It's interesting to think what would have happened if Kellhus was not one few.  Somnambulist wrote something provocative:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1064.0

Perhaps Moenghus would be prepared for either contingency: Kellhus gets sorcery or Kellhus enslaves those that have it.  If Kellhus were not one of the few, I guess the narrative would have followed his seduction of the Scarlet Spires instead of just one lonely Mandati
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 05, 2014, 08:18:07 pm
There's a problem there. Kellhus does describe seeing a mark on the Nonman much later in the book, remembering. Just not explicitly during that encounter. I think it's absence in that chapter was an oversight on Bakker's part.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on September 05, 2014, 08:36:15 pm
I think Kellhus was always one of the few and Bakker's late reveal was to keep the reader in the dark for awhile.  But I like Somnambulist's read.  Whatever is in the darkness of Kellhus' soul/the puppet master changes him from time to time with updated memories.  If you could make someone into a member of the Few, then a Dunyain would be the one to figure it out.  Maybe Moenghus molding the pot?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on September 10, 2014, 02:42:25 am
Well, I guess it depends on the naming conventions they used.  A certain number of degrees of genelogical tracking where you get to be called Anasurimbor.  Or perhaps a designation of natural skill level - i.e. only the elite students are "Anasurimbors'.

Interesting that Moe called for his son. Given the patriachal systems of the Three Seas a male would be far more useful for TTT.  But maybe Kellhus has a far more talented sister?
Haha maybe you missed my post, this is pretty much what I said :P
After so long waiting and being in the dark, everything still hidden seems like it should be important. The Dunyain women chief among them.
But, for TTT and the Three Seas, a male would have indeed been more useful.

Oh they were inbred as hell, but still most of their numbers didn't seem to be among the Few so either those genes are fairly recessive, or something about Dunyain eugenics selected against it preferentially.
How could you know most of them were not of the Few?
Also this:
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, March 2006
The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

Also:

Quote from: TDTCB, p565
Kellhus blinked, and his senses leapt back into their proper proportion. How was this possible? Sorcery? If so, it possessed nothing of the strange torsion he’d experienced with the Nonman he’d battled so long ago. Sorcery, Kellhus had realized, was inexplicably grotesque — like the scribblings of a child across a work of art — though he did not know why. All he knew was that he could distinguish sorcery from the world and sorcerers from common men. This was among the many mysteries that had motivated his study of Drusas Achamian.

There's a problem there. Kellhus does describe seeing a mark on the Nonman much later in the book, remembering. Just not explicitly during that encounter. I think it's absence in that chapter was an oversight on Bakker's part.
Which one? I don't recall him seeing any nonmen other than Mek in the beginning.

I think Kellhus was always one of the few and Bakker's late reveal was to keep the reader in the dark for awhile. 
One of the best reveals in the series so far, I think. I was pretty damn excited when Akka started puzzling it out, realizing what Kellhus' intellect could do with the Gnosis...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 10, 2014, 04:29:47 pm
How could you know most of them were not of the Few?
Didn't all the Dunyain that could receive Moenghus' dreams (and thus all the Dunyain that were of the Few) commit suicide? And didn't Bakker say that was like 1/3rd of them or something? This was one of those things from an interview rather than the books so I'm not sure where to find it

Of course 1/3rd would still be way higher than the number in the general population.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 11, 2014, 02:36:44 am
Never heard an actual number or percentage. Moenghus was also limited to contacting the dunyain he knew (there is some level of familiarity required) at Ishual, so there's a Venn overlap there.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2014, 02:04:54 pm
Maybe what Curethan was suggesting, but I assumed that the Psuke Cants of Calling work the same way as the other schools. One must know the person and the place. I had always thought that the 'place' clause was very specific. He'd have to get the correct bedchamber. Also, the cants of compulsion work on those that cannot perceive the Onta, so I would also posite that this is not a limiting factor to sending dreams. Moenghus probably tried to contact every single Dunyain he could, but because of his 30 years absent, he only knew a few that remained alive, and could guess correctly only a handful where they slept.

The above quote from Bakker kind of points to the fact that Sight was tied to other useful traits in the Dunyain breeding program, so I believe nearly all the Dunyain can see the Onta

(side note, I want a better way to describe see the Onta. Maybe an acronmy... SotO (Sight of the Onta), PotO (Perception of the Onta)...)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Somnambulist on September 11, 2014, 09:36:23 pm
Moe was also adept at scrying, so he could have employed his version of flame-seeing to obtain the locations of those he knew, thus enabling him to send the dreams.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 03:29:21 pm
Oh right, I did forget about the scrying loophole. That does still leave "knowing" the person though. Wonder how that's defined. Since you must also have been to the physical location, maybe you must have had a physical connection to the person you want to call. Scrying wouldn't be able to circumvent that.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Somnambulist on September 12, 2014, 08:22:53 pm
Moe was in his 20's (I think) before he was exiled.  Plenty of time for a Dunyain to 'know' many of the residents of Ishual.  All he had to do was fire-see in the unmasking room (all those candles) to find those he knew who remained/were still alive.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 10:57:33 pm
Again, depends on what 'knowing' really means.
Is it the amount of people you would recognize from their portrait, or the amount of people you would recognize from their handwriting.  (Clearly the latter example is almost the same thing for a dunyain, but you get the idea of degree of difference.)
We only see sorcerers explicitly dream-skyping with people they know very well.

Then, how many dunyain are there anyway, and how many of them is a student permitted to interact with? (Remember, even the fall of a leaf is strictly controlled in Ishual.)

There are too many unknown variables, father.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 05:20:27 pm
what about that SS grunt they dropped off at Joktha?  at the max, he would have known his superior roughly the same amount of time as moe knew folks in ishual

by the by, i personally don't think moe needed to know anyone back in ishual to send the dreams, he's got some kind of conduit like the seeing-flame and just inflicts the dreams on whoever he wants

IF he did know that the dream-infected dunyain would be considered polluted and be put to death (why not send them out like moe?) and IF they were in fact put to death (not just a ploy for Kellhus' sake) then Moe perhaps tricked the dunyain into assassinating some members that would have been problematic for him???
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on September 24, 2014, 05:35:24 pm
I don't recall the grunt, so I'll leave that for another's speculation

You raise some good points about the Dunyain and their reaction. I suspect he spent lots of time in the probability trance figuring out how to get the exact reaction he wanted from the Dunyain. That reaction may or may not have been what Kellhus saw.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 06:06:36 pm
the adept who was supposed to slee till noon, the guy who pointed out conphas' disguised far caller
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: citizensnips on March 01, 2016, 03:46:39 pm
Thread necro, and this is probably directly contradicted by a passage in an earlier book but....maybe Ishual is just like that?

It's a 2,000+ year old castle. Given their rules about staying in one place and their (presumably) small population pool, it seems unlikely the Dûnyain would have the resources and expertise to maintain such a large structure. Especially if they destroyed any magic runes or such that might have been propping it up. Maybe they just live around and below the ruin.

Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 01, 2016, 03:51:26 pm
Please, raise dead threads all you like, citizensnips :).

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, officially (though, it looks like you've been registered for time).
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Blackstone on March 01, 2016, 04:07:22 pm
Thread necro, and this is probably directly contradicted by a passage in an earlier book but....maybe Ishual is just like that?

It's a 2,000+ year old castle. Given their rules about staying in one place and their (presumably) small population pool, it seems unlikely the Dûnyain would have the resources and expertise to maintain such a large structure. Especially if they destroyed any magic runes or such that might have been propping it up. Maybe they just live around and below the ruin.

Ha! That's a good point. But I don't feel like that's the case. Kellhus turns to look at Ishual as he is leaving, but I don't remember if there was a description.

I think Kellhus destroyed it (probably all by himself). I think anything else would be too coincidental to be good writing on Scott's part.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 01, 2016, 04:15:17 pm
Thread necro, and this is probably directly contradicted by a passage in an earlier book but....maybe Ishual is just like that?

It's a 2,000+ year old castle. Given their rules about staying in one place and their (presumably) small population pool, it seems unlikely the Dûnyain would have the resources and expertise to maintain such a large structure. Especially if they destroyed any magic runes or such that might have been propping it up. Maybe they just live around and below the ruin.

Ha! That's a good point. But I don't feel like that's the case. Kellhus turns to look at Ishual as he is leaving, but I don't remember if there was a description.

I couldn't find the quote (thought it was in this thread somewhere...) he Kellhus turns around once as he leaves Ishual and watches those on the wall leave the ramparts. Its definitely not in shambles when he walks out. It was destroyed sometime between when he turned around and when Akka/Mim finally find it.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: H on March 01, 2016, 04:22:22 pm
Yeah, the most probable culprit is Kellhus himself.  If the Consult couldn't find it in 2000 years, I have doubts they'd find it in 20.

Why he would have destroyed it is a whole different issue.  To deny Akka questioning the ones left there?  Then why let Akka find the map?  Then again, it could be something deeper, like Kellhus setting up what Akka will find.  Could all be drawing out what Seswatha is guiding Akka towards...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Blackstone on March 01, 2016, 05:00:34 pm
Yeah, the most probable culprit is Kellhus himself.  If the Consult couldn't find it in 2000 years, I have doubts they'd find it in 20.

Why he would have destroyed it is a whole different issue.  To deny Akka questioning the ones left there?  Then why let Akka find the map?  Then again, it could be something deeper, like Kellhus setting up what Akka will find.  Could all be drawing out what Seswatha is guiding Akka towards...

I agree. And if they found the map in the coffers, why read it and then leave it there for someone else.

I mentioned this in another thread. I suspect that through the probability trance, Kellhus surmised that the Dunyain would be exposed to the outside world during the SA. Dunyain, in order to master circumstance, would learn magic. They would then embrace the Consult to prevent their damnation (the precise reason Kellhus had to stop his father at the end of TTT). I think it was a risk he wasn't willing to take.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: H on March 01, 2016, 05:06:18 pm
Yeah, the most probable culprit is Kellhus himself.  If the Consult couldn't find it in 2000 years, I have doubts they'd find it in 20.

Why he would have destroyed it is a whole different issue.  To deny Akka questioning the ones left there?  Then why let Akka find the map?  Then again, it could be something deeper, like Kellhus setting up what Akka will find.  Could all be drawing out what Seswatha is guiding Akka towards...

I agree. And if they found the map in the coffers, why read it and then leave it there for someone else.

I mentioned this in another thread. I suspect that through the probability trance, Kellhus surmised that the Dunyain would be exposed to the outside world during the SA. Dunyain, in order to master circumstance, would learn magic. They would then embrace the Consult to prevent their damnation (the precise reason Kellhus had to stop his father at the end of TTT). I think it was a risk he wasn't willing to take.

Yeah, I could see that.  Also, if we consider that Kellhus is probably the pinnacle of what the Dunyain sought to attain, there it no real benefit to having them any more.

In reality though, if Kellhus killed them it was probably mostly to suffer no rivals (same reason why he killed Moe).

Not that it's relevant to this thread, but I still do wonder if the collective might of the Siqu would be a match for Kellhus...
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 01, 2016, 06:55:25 pm
Yeah when they monks aren't all sitting around meditating, they are forced by their own conditioning to control all circumstances around them. Kellhus would want more Dunyain getting in his way as much as the Consult want more Dunyain to fight against.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: citizensnips on March 01, 2016, 09:56:20 pm
Please, raise dead threads all you like, citizensnips :).

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, officially (though, it looks like you've been registered for time).

Thanks. I was doing a reread of the series before the next book comes out and I for some reason I couldn't get a new account to register. Then I ended up trying an old email address and I found this account I made a couple years ago and never used...

I couldn't find the quote (thought it was in this thread somewhere...) he Kellhus turns around once as he leaves Ishual and watches those on the wall leave the ramparts. Its definitely not in shambles when he walks out. It was destroyed sometime between when he turned around and when Akka/Mim finally find it.

Yeah, I figured that it was unlikely. It has gotten me thinking about the logistics of Dûnyain society though.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Madness on March 01, 2016, 11:12:29 pm
Please, raise dead threads all you like, citizensnips :).

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, officially (though, it looks like you've been registered for time).

Thanks. I was doing a reread of the series before the next book comes out and I for some reason I couldn't get a new account to register. Then I ended up trying an old email address and I found this account I made a couple years ago and never used...

Unfortunately, we have basically the worst system of registration ever due to the abnormal amount of Spam-Sranc baying at the Gates. Wilshire and I manually approve members and sometimes new registers get lost in the shuffle. Probably we'll have to modify our SOP to "Approving and E-mailing" new members because otherwise, there is no clear demarcation as to when a new register perceives that they can post.

Glad you found your way despite our ineptitude ;).
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: citizensnips on March 02, 2016, 09:14:55 pm
Well the important thing is that I'm here and can finally write down all my half baked theories!

Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: MSJ on March 03, 2016, 02:32:01 pm
Welcome citizensnips!

Yea, I've always been of the opinion that Kellhus has destroyed Ishual. I have had thoughts that Seswatha is behind the Dunyain and when Kellhus left Ishual they destroyed the place and moved to another location to be used when the SA is at hand. But, that's me cooking up half baked ideas. No, Kellhus destroying Ishual because he doesn't want the competition seems the most likely scenario. That, or the Consult found the map and destroyed it. Take your pick.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2016, 03:12:45 pm
I always love the of irony of the idea that Akka's fight with Wuteat led the dragon to return to golgotterath, where it passed over a random castle mountain that it burned to the ground before went on its way to Golgotterath.

One of the chapter headers from the beginning goes something like "like a hunter in thicket, the act of searching extinguishing your chance to find prey".
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Blackstone on March 03, 2016, 03:20:27 pm
I always love the of irony of the idea that Akka's fight with Wuteat led the dragon to return to golgotterath, where it passed over a random castle mountain that it burned to the ground before went on its way to Golgotterath.

One of the chapter headers from the beginning goes something like "like a hunter in thicket, the act of searching extinguishing your chance to find prey".

Ha ha ha. I always liked that idea too.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: citizensnips on March 03, 2016, 04:43:12 pm
That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or. 
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: H on March 03, 2016, 04:59:03 pm
That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or. 

Continuing in a line of less probable things, there is the chance that Mek backtracked Kellhus to there, they killed everyone just for the hell of it.  Pretty sure Madness thought of that at the very beginning of this thread actually.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Blackstone on March 03, 2016, 05:06:26 pm
That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or. 

Continuing in a line of less probable things, there is the chance that Mek backtracked Kellhus to there, they killed everyone just for the hell of it.  Pretty sure Madness thought of that at the very beginning of this thread actually.

That actually seems like a reasonable explanation. I still vote it was Kellhus though. :)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: H on March 03, 2016, 05:19:11 pm
That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or. 

Continuing in a line of less probable things, there is the chance that Mek backtracked Kellhus to there, they killed everyone just for the hell of it.  Pretty sure Madness thought of that at the very beginning of this thread actually.

That actually seems like a reasonable explanation. I still vote it was Kellhus though. :)

Yeah, if I were laying bets, that's where I'd have my money too.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Blackstone on March 30, 2016, 10:36:36 pm
It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2016, 10:55:36 pm
It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.

Or, you could go with my line of thinking. That Kellhus and Moe are the culminations of the Dûnyain's plans. And, they have moved to a different locale to be of use to Seswatha for the SA. Indeed, a bunch of Dûnyain Gnostic sorcerors who reek havoc on the Consult. Wishful thinking, mostly.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 31, 2016, 05:10:10 pm
It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.
How do you know there aren't any bodies? The best place to make a stand would be within the darkness of the Thousand Thousand halls, regardless of whether or not they were attacked by someone using magics.

Besides, all we have seen is ishual in the distance.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: themerchant on March 31, 2016, 07:13:03 pm
Yeah the Dunyain know when to run, Kellhus was handling the mek situation till sorcery reared its' head and then he was OFFFFFF like Usain Bolt.

So i imagine a flight into the TTH, which they all know their way around would be the move to make.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: profgrape on March 31, 2016, 08:04:10 pm
Okay, crazy-ass idea: that's not Ishual.

Consider this snippet from TDTCB prologue:

Quote
On the forty-third day, [Kellhus] waded across a shallow river and clambered onto banks black with ash.  Weeds crowded the char blanketing the ground, but nothing else.  Like blackened spears, dead trees spiked the sky.  He picked his way through the debris, stung by wees where they brushed his bare skin.  Finally he gained the summit of a ridge.

The immensity of the valley below struck Kellhus breathless.  Beyond the fire's desolation, where the forest was still dark and crowded, ancient fortifications loomed above the trees, forming a great rung across the autumnal distances.  He watched birds wheel over and around the nearer ramparts, flash across stretches of mottled stone before dipping into the canopy.  Ruined walls.  So cold, and so forlorn, in a way the forest could be.

And then this from WLW:

Quote
At last the two of them stand side by side on the glacial summit, sucking air that never seems to nourish, gazing out across the basin of an enormous green-and-black valley.

Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue.  And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual.  But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: themerchant on March 31, 2016, 08:59:34 pm
Maybe the whole series is an analogy for global warming? I think in one of the pragma flashbacks a glacier is mentioned though, can;t be certain, maybe says something about it curving like a womans back or something.

Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2016, 09:05:04 pm
Maybe the whole series is an analogy for global warming? I think in one of the pragma flashbacks a glacier is mentioned though, can;t be certain, maybe says something about it curving like a womans back or something.

Yes, in the Logos is without beginning or end scene.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: profgrape on March 31, 2016, 10:11:24 pm
Well, I did say it was crazy... :-)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 12:56:34 am
Hi citizensnips!  I guess that could totally be the case.  Maybe the Dunyain think that if it looks like their castle is in ruins, then no one will bother it.  Knowing them, they would use all the ruined bits as strategic parts of a defense.

Have we gone over this possibility?  Perhaps Kellhus or Moe come to believe that Ishual will be soon exposed and destroyed unless something is done.  Kellhus shows all his brothers (sisters) how to travel to and maybe live in THE OUTSIDE!!!  Then he crashes the whole thing to confuse the Consult.

@ H - I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Kellhus would get rid of the other Dunyain if he is the pinnacle.  If he is the pinnacle, then he is the alpha and could certainly make use of at least some of the Dunyain.  If some are too dangerous to keep, the surely there are some of the others that are more like his children (less gifted) that he could bend to his will and use as sorcerers or whatever. 

Plus, if Kellhus is really smart, then he would see the point of having other smart people around, the way a study group can check each other's answers.  Some may retort and say "but he's prideful, self-centered, cannot see his own limitations" but isn't that exactly the kind of thing that Dunyain breeding/training is suppose to extinguish?  The Dunyain and the best Dunyain would be *extremely* cognizant of human limitations.  I do think that Kellhus has a blind spot, I'm just not sure what it is, and I'm not sold on the idea that he would eliminate something like the whole Dunyain breeding project.  I mean, he keeps Cnaiur alive to continue using him and Cnaiur is no Dunyain.

I don't know that Kellhus would be motivated by the "suffer no rivals" mindset.  After all, the Dunyain live together in Ishual--since there are more than one, it would suggest that they show at least some tolerance of rivals.  Plus, the notion of 'rivals' would be another one of those things to breed/train out of them.

If he really does believe (as he says at the end of TTT) that he is more than a Dunyain, then he certainly doesn't need to kill those lesser types that could prove useful to him.

@ profgrape - i like your crazy ass idea!  fake map leading to fake ishual!  now who and why is sending Akka on this fool's errand?  is he being sent to a different mansion to discover whole new secrets?  a second dunyain project???
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 12:57:22 am
Attempting a complete summary of possible culprits for destroying Ishual:
1) Consult (perhaps just Mek)
2) Dunayin themselves (either they trashed it to hide elsewhere OR if they really really believe that Kellhus is the final product, maybe they just offed themselves)
3) Ishterebinth
4) Kellhus
5) Moenghus
6) Wutteat
7) Other dragon?
8) Ciphrang or Ciphrang possessed individual?
9) Yatwer or Ajokli or other god?
10) Natural calamity - like Osgiliath (The God?)
11) Sranc/Bashrag - sure the Dunyain could fight off a lot, but at some level not even they could withstand the these guys
12) Cleric (independent of Ishterebinth)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wic on April 01, 2016, 01:11:09 am

Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue.  And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual.  But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?
Coincidentally, just read this during the Kell/Moe conversation:
Quote
From the very first, ever since descending the glaciers into the wastes of Kuniuri, Kellhus had pondered the man now leading him through these galleries of darkness.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 01:16:04 am

Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue.  And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual.  But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?
Coincidentally, just read this during the Kell/Moe conversation:
Quote
From the very first, ever since descending the glaciers into the wastes of Kuniuri, Kellhus had pondered the man now leading him through these galleries of darkness.

Nice!  Text Detective Wic!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 02:53:52 pm
It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.
How do you know there aren't any bodies? The best place to make a stand would be within the darkness of the Thousand Thousand halls, regardless of whether or not they were attacked by someone using magics.

Besides, all we have seen is ishual in the distance.

It's an assumption that there are no bodies. None were mentioned in the teaser chapter, and if some sort of battle took place, I don't think all the Dunyain would make it down into the halls before they got killed. But we didn't get the whole chapter, so maybe some will turn up!
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Callan S. on June 22, 2016, 05:35:47 am
Quote from: Callan S.
C: Batman!

Could be a fake - Kellhus sends a dream through and the Dunyain realise they've gotta go find another evil laboratory to work in.

Given it was ruined rather than obliterated, I'm guessing Consult.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on June 22, 2016, 12:13:02 pm
Lots of gems around the forum like this ;)

FYI, this is currently in the WLW subforum, no TGO spoilers, please. Might have to move this or somone should create a new one elsewhere to allow unrestricted conversation to flow again.

Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Madness on June 25, 2016, 05:35:29 pm
I would say we create a new thread in TGO - but perhaps wait until the book is out.
Title: Re: Who destroyed the [spoiler] monastery?
Post by: Wilshire on March 03, 2017, 01:41:05 pm
Quote from: Camlost
Quote
Camlost, I've debated this with Dean more often than you can imagine. He's surprisingly well read - if only obsessively trying to find Bakker's continuity errors... LMAO!
Are we talking Dean from creative writing class?

Madness you've mention on a number of occasions that you feel Dagliash will be analogous to Helm's Deep much like Cil'Aujas was to the Mines of Moria. How close do you think Bakker will adhere to that model? Do you think we'll see Dagliash on the brink of capture and our resident Wizard showing up in the nick of time with an army of Nonmen at his back? It feels somewhat likely to me, at the very least it makes for a convenient rally location for joining the Ordeal.


Ah, the past.