The way he's executed, Kellhus would be just a normal intelligent, if somewhat overly self-serving, person. So he might start a cult to prey on people who for some reason suspended their critical thinking, but it's not going to be even close to possible for him to sway another intelligent human.
It's actually one of the biggest problems I have with the series. Kellhus just doesn't sound all that convincing to me. Sure, he has some good points, plus some supernatural (and so far considered straight up impossible for a functioning human being) abilities, like learning languages in weeks. But he is tremendously overconfident and ignorant at the same time, and far from infallible. The way I see it, in our world, he wouldn't have more agency than another halfway smart man. And even in Earwa, he got so enormously lucky to even get to the Holy War.(click to show/hide)
The point is that Kellhus the character/place/plot-device is a super human intellect, so much so that he can do any skill - math, language, politics, martial arts - with ease. He baffles the minds of all others, out maneuvers every person or thing that gets in his way.I would say that the point is, Kellhus is better. The extent of him being better is very much in question and what ultimately leads to TUC ending the way it did.
Kellhus' blind luck was primarily up to the circumfixtion, and some of it might (I shudder at even suggesting it) have been influenced from Moenghus.
But the initial prompt was 'if there was' lol.Even so, it's just so unrealistic that I can't reconcile it with our world. Like, no joke.
Would make for good fanfiction :)
I agree with what was mentioned previously. Kellhus or any Dunyain cannot be smarter than their creator as all their thoughts are just inputs from their creator. However, if a Dunyain were to be dropped into our world, they would no longer be constricted by the creator's vision and would likely adapt in the way AI does, to the point that it outsmarts humans.Only if the concept of the Dunyain is itself sound.
Only if the concept of the Dunyain is itself sound.What's the concept?
A Dunyain, in concept, would just be the smartest possible human. Seems possible?This is precisely what I have a problem with. Even the smartest possible human cannot learn a language in a few weeks, it's just not feasible, necessary new neural pathways will not have time to form.
This is a concept, not a production line.
If not in 10k years, what about 100k years? A million? Or is it simply hypothetically impossible to conceive of any way to measure such a thing?
I think you missed the point, which was to determine if a Dunyain is possible. Certainly in the books it was a production, not a one off impossible concept (obviously its possible in Earwa :P ).This is a concept, not a production line.
Hmm ... with the whole whale mother thing, seemed like a production line to me.
I think you're arguing against yourself. You have an impressive treatise on how Kellhus wasn't all that and with luck disaster-ed his way to the top. You convinced me, just because someone is viewed as smart, doesn't validate they are and just provides license to manipulate followers.Heh, I can discuss or defend a topic I don't agree with. The point is the discussion itself :) .
Heh, I can discuss or defend a topic I don't agree with. The point is the discussion itself :) .
I'd like to explore this further, if you don't mind. FYI, I'm not attempting to defend any particular stance and I don't have anything invested beyond curiosity. I don't understand why you belive a Dunyain can't exist and I want to know why :) .Absolutely no problem! A wall of text follows.
How long does it take for a neural pathway to form? Is that a specific measurement that you're aware of?As far as I'm aware of new developments in the field of neuroscience, neurogenesis occurs at a certain rate (some information on the subject: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4394608/). Synaptic plasticity is, too, not instant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_plasticity). The research is, of course, ongoing, but it corroborates the fact that learning languages takes years. We obviously don't exactly know how we learn, but there are statistical measurements of learning new languages. The timeframe doesn't vary that much. I'm of the opinion it's physiologically based. There is a rate of development for memory and learning-related biological structures, and it cannot be accelerated significantly (not by orders of magnitude, certainly, since it's already pretty efficient). Our bodies have clear-cut limits. To transcend them, another framework is needed, be it electromechanical or built on other biological principles.
So a Dunyain would basically be an adult that can form neural pathways like a child, maybe? What do you call that, brain elasticity or something?There very much is, and a huge one at that. But there is no way to know if it means that adults learn worse than children, instead of learning differently. For example, Bakker likes to call the processes going on in the human brain throughout adulthood neural pruning (he is aware of the limitations in question), while I think he's jumping to conclusions.
I don't think there's a biological limitation to that, is there?
A human generally has an easier time learning multiple languages after they learn a 2nd, right? More so if they learned multiple language as a child.Here I should make a disclaimer. It's not so much proven as implied, and there are issues with the ways the data for this conclusion was gathered. Basically, the problem is in the fact that the studies are too narrow, since a whole lot of things are important here. Like, let's say a child is not bilingual, but was exposed to a huge amount of classical literature. How would it affect their intellectual abilities? There are some studies that conclude children who were constantly intellectually engaged in their formative years are way more adept at learning than their not-so-lucky peers. Which begs the question of what's important here, the nature of engagement or the levels of engagement?
'Smart' would just be, again, the ways that Kellhus is smart and able to manipulate people because of it. How much more complex does that definition need to be for this conversation?This is not at all a definition of anything, since the way Kellhus manipulates people is fictional through and through.
I don't know how to define 'smart' as it pertains to this. Can I call it 'Dunyain like' for clarity, or does something more rigorous need to be defined so a conversation can happen at all?I'm not sure how I can help here, because almost everything pertaining to the fantastical nature of the Dunyain is, well, fantastic in my eyes for a variety of reasons. Their strength begs the question of biological feasibility, since our muscles are pretty much the best we can have in our particular case (not the strongest possible in nature, but extremely efficient for our specific place in it). The same goes for their reflexes, but here the conductive speed of nerves is in question, as well as the speed at which the brain processes information.
Incremental, but infinitely so. This is a concept, not a production line.Is 0,0001% a difference that will play an important role or even be noticed? It's like I outlined here:
Another line of questions, is a person from, say, 10,000 years ago intellectually identical to a person today?This is actually a question that's debated ad nauseam. At this point, the answer is - we don’t know.
100% feasible to me still. I still don't see any problems.At this point I must note that I'm obviously grossly overthinking it.
Thanks for taking the time.It was my pleasure.
Returning to language, there is also the question of practice. You very well can understand a language, but not be able to speak it correctly (a requirement of sorcery, I must note) because your muscles aren't used to making the movements necessary. So it's also about muscle memory, which is acquired by training.
I'm fairly sure Bakker is proficient only in his native language, thus lacking the experience of learning another one (or more) and then comparing your level of proficiency in it to your native one. Otherwise he would've been more realistic in his description. Basically, he not only contradicts my (layman) knowledge, he also contradicts my personal experience. For those yet unaware, English is not my native language (Russian is), and I additionally have a cursory knowledge of two more languages (French and Japanese) in the sense that with ample time and a dictionary I can understand 80% of the texts written in them.
First of all, I think this was a great postThank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.
Not that this means most people in this forum will not think Dûnyain learn languages way too quickly, of course, but I think you can understand what I mean.Of course!
We actually know for a fact that Bakker doesn't think much of learning new languages (as seen here (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl29b3k/)). And it definitely shows in this part of the story.It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.
And I remember correctly, didn't every single Dûnyain in Ishuäl grow up speaking one single language, that had been the only one anyone in that community spoke for thousands of years? They didn't even have a minimum of exposure to any other language, which makes the whole thing even more unbelievable...You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.
First of all, I think this was a great postThank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.Not that this means most people in this forum will not think Dûnyain learn languages way too quickly, of course, but I think you can understand what I mean.Of course!We actually know for a fact that Bakker doesn't think much of learning new languages (as seen here (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl29b3k/)). And it definitely shows in this part of the story.It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.And I remember correctly, didn't every single Dûnyain in Ishuäl grow up speaking one single language, that had been the only one anyone in that community spoke for thousands of years? They didn't even have a minimum of exposure to any other language, which makes the whole thing even more unbelievable...You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.
A short example for the sake of others, though. Some time ago the Moscow subway (it's called the Moscow Metro) started to provide announcements in English in addition to Russian (probably something to do with this year's soccer World Championship), and I always wondered about the effectiveness of that idea. Let's say you're a tourist from an English-speaking country, never heard Russian in your life, and want to visit a famous museum, Третьяковская галерея (Tretyakov Gallery). The subway station you need for it is called, unsurprisingly, Третьяковская (Tretyakovskaya). Now, that might not look too bad, but, unfortunately, there is no way to write how it actually sounds using English alphabet (you can listen to it here (https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F&lang=ru-en)). I really have no inkling how should an English speaker even pick out that word in an announcement when looking for their stop. Pronouncing it correctly... Well, good luck with that, but don't feel bad when you fail, and fail, and fail again. English just doesn't have those sounds, it's literally unpronounceable without a huge amount of training.
Also, yes, you should use subway in Moscow. It's much more convenient than a car in 60% of cases at the very least.
So, the point is, knowing what a word means or how it's written is not the same as speaking it.
The ideas and thoughts that SmilerLoki, ToT, Tao, TLEILAXU, and all new member bring have been just outstanding. I for one appreciate it. You too, BFK!Thanks so much!
The link you provided gives me a page written entirely in Cyrillic. My non-Dunyanic brain is having trouble parsing a language I don't even have a baseline understanding off. What button do I even push to satisfy my curiosity? We non-Dunyain need a little actual help from those we are trying to learn from.There is a button there that looks like a standard sound indicator. Here's a picture of it:
Thank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.
It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.
You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.
Let's say you're a tourist from an English-speaking country, never heard Russian in your life, and want to visit a famous museum, Третьяковская галерея (Tretyakov Gallery). The subway station you need for it is called, unsurprisingly, Третьяковская (Tretyakovskaya). Now, that might not look too bad, but, unfortunately, there is no way to write how it actually sounds using English alphabet (you can listen to it here (https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F&lang=ru-en)). I really have no inkling how should an English speaker even pick out that word in an announcement when looking for their stop. Pronouncing it correctly... Well, good luck with that, but don't feel bad when you fail, and fail, and fail again. English just doesn't have those sounds, it's literally unpronounceable without a huge amount of training.
It took around 10 years of study in a language school to actually get the highest degree available (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2_Proficiency) there. But I did start young (around age 7) and watching cartoons (no dubbing, no subtitles) at a even younger age also helped (even if that might sound silly to some). I'm guessing it was harder for you as you had to switch to a completely new alphabet.It might have been slightly harder for me, but not by much, I don't think. I vaguely remember learning English alphabet as a child, but I don't actually remember not knowing it. So, from my perspective, I could always read English, though, obviously, not always correctly. Fortunately, Latin script is taught in Russia almost universally, because at least one foreign language is a mandatory part of the standard curriculum. That said, make no mistake, there is absolutely no way to gain even remotely workable knowledge of any language from an average Russian school (however harsh it might sound, that includes Russian). But some of the basics are covered, if nothing else.
Aside from English being a requirement, I think I do not agree with the general sentiment Bakker expresses there because, to me, learning new languages is never a mistake or a waste of time. But that might be just because it is something I always had an interest in (even if I only learned one foreign language to a degree of fluency).I see where you're coming from, but that's part of why I agree with Bakker, though for personal reasons. Languages come easy to me, so it seems like a constant repetition of things I already do well. There are other fields where I struggle, and overcoming those struggles offers more to pushing my intellectual limits.
That's the thing, your average Dûnyain should have an even harder time exposed to any language spoken in the Three Seas than your average English speaker (that doesn't speak any other language) exposed to, say, Russian, like in your example below. I'd guess that most English-speaking people have at least heard a couple of Russian words during their lives. For a Dûnyain leaving Ishuäl, everything should have been completely unknown. Kellhus should have found other languages nearly as strange as the existence of sorcery and Nonmen, not have the capacity to learn them at superhuman speed.Exactly what I meant!
That's an interesting example. And the funny thing is, after I listened to the word spoken aloud, I realized you could try to phonetically spell it in Portuguese and it would be far closer to the original than anything you could try and do with English (a greater similarity of sounds between the two languages, maybe?).For sure. I don't know a lick of Portuguese, but I've heard it enough times to recognize the way it sounds (thank you, poorly dubbed Brazilian soap operas, I guess?). I can concur, it sounds way closer to Russian than English. I'm quite often able to tell when someone speaks Portuguese, and the same goes for Spanish and Italian, which I also don't know at all, but listened to frequently.
Not sure I see the problem. The pronunciation just seems to be "Tretyakovska". I mean, it might be a bit tricky for e.g. an American who only knows one language, but it should be doable.First of all, I think this was a great postThank you! I had a distinct feeling you would understand me better than most, precisely because of the fact that you're a non-native speaker (I surmised that from some of your posts) who utilizes English at a native speaker level. I can imagine the amount of time and effort that took.Not that this means most people in this forum will not think Dûnyain learn languages way too quickly, of course, but I think you can understand what I mean.Of course!We actually know for a fact that Bakker doesn't think much of learning new languages (as seen here (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl29b3k/)). And it definitely shows in this part of the story.It might sound strange, but I actually agree with him. Unfortunately, some things are what they are. In today's world you have to know English, that's not an option, it's a requirement. Learning languages is thinking wide instead of thinking deep, but translations often become so extremely inconvenient that you simply have to delve into the language or lose crucial pieces of information.And I remember correctly, didn't every single Dûnyain in Ishuäl grow up speaking one single language, that had been the only one anyone in that community spoke for thousands of years? They didn't even have a minimum of exposure to any other language, which makes the whole thing even more unbelievable...You are absolutely correct. They spoke Dunyanic. I was considering bringing this point up, but then thought it would be kinda hard to showcase why it's important.
A short example for the sake of others, though. Some time ago the Moscow subway (it's called the Moscow Metro) started to provide announcements in English in addition to Russian (probably something to do with this year's soccer World Championship), and I always wondered about the effectiveness of that idea. Let's say you're a tourist from an English-speaking country, never heard Russian in your life, and want to visit a famous museum, Третьяковская галерея (Tretyakov Gallery). The subway station you need for it is called, unsurprisingly, Третьяковская (Tretyakovskaya). Now, that might not look too bad, but, unfortunately, there is no way to write how it actually sounds using English alphabet (you can listen to it here (https://translate.yandex.ru/?text=%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F&lang=ru-en)). I really have no inkling how should an English speaker even pick out that word in an announcement when looking for their stop. Pronouncing it correctly... Well, good luck with that, but don't feel bad when you fail, and fail, and fail again. English just doesn't have those sounds, it's literally unpronounceable without a huge amount of training.
Also, yes, you should use subway in Moscow. It's much more convenient than a car in 60% of cases at the very least.
So, the point is, knowing what a word means or how it's written is not the same as speaking it.
Not sure I see the problem. The pronunciation just seems to be "Tretyakovska". I mean, it might be a bit tricky for e.g. an American who only knows one language, but it should be doable.Knowing other languages without a doubt offers significant help here.
I see. I still think that knowing the transliteration should provide enough information to infer the correct stop being announced on the speakers, but I might be biased since I'm not a monoglot or whatever you call that :)Not sure I see the problem. The pronunciation just seems to be "Tretyakovska". I mean, it might be a bit tricky for e.g. an American who only knows one language, but it should be doable.Knowing other languages without a doubt offers significant help here.
The problem is with the soft sounds. Russian "е" is not at all like English "e", which would be equivalent to the letter "э" in Russian. The letter "я" has only an approximation in the combination "ya" (it's also pretty close to the vowel sound in the word "young", for example), but it's not quite there, which would be extremely noticeable when trying to pronounce it. The way consonants are softened by adding the letter "ь" after them (that letter is literally translated as "the soft sign") has no analogue in English whatsoever.
And the name is also pronounced fast (it's noticeably slowed down in the example I gave). Not Japanese kind of fast, but enough to blur some syllables to an untrained ear.
I see. I still think that knowing the transliteration should provide enough information to infer the correct stop being announced on the speakers, but I might be biased since I'm not a monoglot or whatever you call that :)It's not like it's strictly impossible, it's just going to be hard. Like, legitimately hard. It's subway, there is noise, and many Russian names would blend together for a foreigner even if they are perfectly distinguishable for a native (which they aren't in those circumstances, but the stations are marked by huge letters spelling out their names in, you guessed it, Russian).
ват иф аи кан рид кыриллик?I see. I still think that knowing the transliteration should provide enough information to infer the correct stop being announced on the speakers, but I might be biased since I'm not a monoglot or whatever you call that :)It's not like it's strictly impossible, it's just going to be hard. Like, legitimately hard. It's subway, there is noise, and many Russian names would blend together for a foreigner even if they are perfectly distinguishable for a native (which they aren't in those circumstances, but the stations are marked by huge letters spelling out their names in, you guessed it, Russian).
Welcome to Moscow.
ват иф аи кан рид кыриллик?Зен ю ар ин лак!
:D! Аи ню ит вуд кам ин хзнди ван дзи...ват иф аи кан рид кыриллик?Зен ю ар ин лак!
:D! Аи ню ит вуд кам ин хзнди ван дзи...For sure! Though I would've written it something like this:
Ah yes, of course. Those letters always fuck me up, since they look so similar.:D! Аи ню ит вуд кам ин хзнди ван дзи...For sure! Though I would've written it something like this:
Ай нью ит вуд кам ин хэнди ван дэй...
The letter "з" doesn't stand for the sound you want there (it stands for the sound "z"), and the letter "й" is better than "и" in those circumstances. "И" is acceptable, but it's something like writing "daee" instead of 'day'. And, of course, the soft sign. But the difference between "з" and "э" is the most important part.
They're talking about us in Russian guys, lol. Id love to learn another language, but it would be Spanish. Russian seems very difficult.Russian is, simply put, a nightmare. I pity those brave souls who elected to learn it as their second language.
For clarity, what we did there was writing English words using Russian alphabet.
Would the ability to read the emotion/intent behind the words conveyed not facilitate the learning, though? He has an understanding of what is being said. That's what I got from the Lleweth interactions, anyway. Kellhus very quickly learned to "read" the worldborn to the point where he knows what you're thinking/intending to say better than we do. It follows that he already knows what people are saying, just not how they are saying it. That is an enormous advantage over we worldborn, no?This only compounds the issue for me. There was this show, Lie to Me, with a premise based on reading microexpressions, and there was some science behind it, but the problem is, emotions don't really translate into causes and meanings all that well. You're afraid - a million different reasons can make you afraid. You're happy - a million different reasons can make your happy. You're sad - you get the gist.
Understanding the conjugation could be an application of pattern recognition, assuming his memory is phonographic as well (even when the sounds remembered are not understood, they can still be recalled).Oh, and there is the question of memory, too. Eidetic memory, total recall, perfect topographic memory, etc. - all claims of those are unproven from the scientific perspective. Even more so, for example, a significantly better than average recall is the domain of savants or people with less severe disorders like Hyperthymesia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia). It doesn't make you more adept at navigating society, it makes you less adept.
To another point, even though I'm American, I'm trilingual (English, Spanish, and German) with a cursory understanding of four other languages. I do remember how long that took, but my approach is nothing like Kellhus'.That's the problem. Kellhus's approach is unfeasible from all the perspectives (biological, psychological, statistical, mathematical, etc.) regarding human body that I'm aware of.
Would the ability to read the emotion/intent behind the words conveyed not facilitate the learning, though? He has an understanding of what is being said. That's what I got from the Lleweth interactions, anyway. Kellhus very quickly learned to "read" the worldborn to the point where he knows what you're thinking/intending to say better than we do. It follows that he already knows what people are saying, just not how they are saying it. That is an enormous advantage over we worldborn, no?This only compounds the issue for me. There was this show, Lie to Me, with a premise based on reading microexpressions, and there was some science behind it, but the problem is, emotions don't really translate into causes and meanings all that well. You're afraid - a million different reasons can make you afraid. You're happy - a million different reasons can make your happy. You're sad - you get the gist.
Understanding the conjugation could be an application of pattern recognition, assuming his memory is phonographic as well (even when the sounds remembered are not understood, they can still be recalled).
Oh, and there is the question of memory, too. Eidetic memory, total recall, perfect topographic memory, etc. - all claims of those are unproven from the scientific perspective. Even more so, for example, a significantly better than average recall is the domain of savants or people with less severe disorders like Hyperthymesia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia). It doesn't make you more adept at navigating society, it makes you less adept.I do not accept that Kellhus could decipher a dead language any better than we can. He is not deciphering dead languages, he is deciphering living languages from subjects he has constant access to.
Plus there is deciphering dead languages, if we're talking pattern recognition. We only recently worked out some algorithms that help with it, presuming you can swing the processing power required.
The level we can actually suspend our disbelief against our own experiences seems to be the issue here. Your points are entirely valid, from a scientific standpoint. But we're not talking about science! Rather we are talking about a fantasy setting. Some elements must be fantastic.No, no, sure, on both counts. It's a fact, at this point, that I take it too seriously.
I find it very interesting that elements like sorcery are accepted, but not Kellhus' other abilities. Sorcery has no analogue, so it is easy to accept it as fantastic. Elements that do have an analogue, and R. Scott Bakker's (dis?)ability to express them or not, are harder to accept when we do have our own challenges to compare it to.I'm fairly certain this is exactly the issue here, so it's unlikely we have a point of contention.
Kellhus has intimate knowledge of the causality of the emotions involved. Yes, if you are looking at somebody you have no knowledge of, there can be a million reasons. Kellhus is with them to see the stimuli. He can see the cause and effect that lead to the emotional response which is far, far, less than millions.Alas, it's still millions. Every reaction is rooted in the experiences of a person. Those experiences are unique, and they produce unique reactions. The stimuli may be observed, as they often are, but discerning thoughts and clear meanings behind emotions those stimuli invoke, that's exceptionally hard. In some cases it might be hard even after getting completely truthful clarification from the person in question.
The Dunyain have a different biology, though! I do accept that if these biological limitations have been bred for, perhaps some can be overcome. If Kellhus does have a memory that does not exist in our own biology, does the rest of what he does still fail?I feel that a species that different is just so beyond human ken that there is no hope of interaction. If their biological framework is so different and advanced, then the Dunyain (or other similarly advanced beings) have nothing to gain on human level, there is no common ground.
I feel that a species that different is just so beyond human ken that there is no hope of interaction. If their biological framework is so different and advanced, then the Dunyain (or other similarly advanced beings) have nothing to gain on human level, there is no common ground.
Having this kind of memory with the ability to autonomously and rationally function changes that much in my eyes.
I'm not sure this helps at all with the idea that the Dunyain can't really be humans, but I do think that there are plenty of interactions that can happen without understanding.It's akin to humanity's relationship with pets, I would say. The problem is, our human problems and thought processes cannot be related using the frame of reference belonging to pets. And Kellhus's perspective is very well related to us in the books. He's just in no way sufficiently different.
Lol. Did you read Four Revelations? I could barely get through it. I can't imagine trying to read a whole book told from a perspective that was intentionally different from a typical person.I'm not sure this helps at all with the idea that the Dunyain can't really be humans, but I do think that there are plenty of interactions that can happen without understanding.It's akin to humanity's relationship with pets, I would say. The problem is, our human problems and thought processes cannot be related using the frame of reference belonging to pets. And Kellhus's perspective is very well related to us in the books. He's just in no way sufficiently different.
Lol. Did you read Four Revelations? I could barely get through it. I can't imagine trying to read a whole book told from a perspective that was intentionally different from a typical person.I adore the Four Revelations!
lmao, why doesn't that surprise me at all?I assume you know about Mark Z. Danielewski of "House of Leaves" fame?
It was a fun story, but trying to read a whole book like that would be insane. I wonder if Bakker could write one? Might be fun, albeit excruciatingly frustrating.
On the subject of the Four Revelations, I'm also quite a fan of the fact that Cinial'jin was the father of Immiriccas, the Nonman whose soul inhabits the Amiolas.
I think FB mentioned it to me once but nothing beyond that.lmao, why doesn't that surprise me at all?I assume you know about Mark Z. Danielewski of "House of Leaves" fame?
It was a fun story, but trying to read a whole book like that would be insane. I wonder if Bakker could write one? Might be fun, albeit excruciatingly frustrating.
On the subject of the Four Revelations, I'm also quite a fan of the fact that Cinial'jin was the father of Immiriccas, the Nonman whose soul inhabits the Amiolas.
(And that was the reason he was referred to as the "famed father" a couple of times in Four Revelations, right? We just didn't know about the connection at the time.)I actually think that's more about Cinial'jin himself, since it's mentioned during his musings about his daughter, whose death, on balance of probability, preceded any exploits Immiriccas became at the same time famous and infamous for.
I think FB mentioned it to me once but nothing beyond that.Danielewski is a master of non-standard narrative and structuring of prose and text. I unfortunately cannot wholly read "House of Leaves" or "Only Revolutions", since I can't get a physical copy (and it can't be converted to ebook format, the way those works are constructed prohibits it). His later huge series "The Familiar" is much less engaging to me, but there you can see entire episodes written in some fairly interesting ways. Even if it's only playing with form, I still enjoyed looking through it.
I'm not knocking 4 revelations btw. It was a fun short, one of his better, and definitely imaginative. I just struggled with it.Exactly the way I understood you.
I actually think that's more about Cinial'jin himself, since it's mentioned during his musings about his daughter, whose death, on balance of probability, preceded any exploits Immiriccas became at the same time famous and infamous for.
Equally valid interpretation on your part. That's the beauty of Four Revelations, Cinial'jin's memories could likely be interpreted in several different ways regarding certain points.Indeed!
I assume you know about Mark Z. Danielewski of "House of Leaves" fame?
I actually think that's more about Cinial'jin himself, since it's mentioned during his musings about his daughter, whose death, on balance of probability, preceded any exploits Immiriccas became at the same time famous and infamous for.
Equally valid interpretation on your part. That's the beauty of Four Revelations, Cinial'jin's memories could likely be interpreted in several different ways regarding certain points.
In color coding Four Revelations I read it many, many times. It's really not all that confusing to me, it's just completely bereft of context for nearly everything. So, it's completely unclear what any of it means, not really all that unclear what is actually happening. I guess that's somewhat similar, but to me it's rather different.It's not all that confusing, I completely agree, but it is layered by default, so the way to interpret through interconnected multiple associations is entirely valid.
It's not all that confusing, I completely agree, but it is layered by default, so the way to interpret through interconnected multiple associations is entirely valid.
It's all incomplete. In a way that could be considering confusing, but really it's just incomplete.Then we are in agreement.