Modern Day Times With A Dunyain

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2018, 06:38:01 pm »
:D! Аи ню ит вуд кам ин хзнди ван дзи...
For sure! Though I would've written it something like this:
Ай нью ит вуд кам ин хэнди ван дэй...

The letter "з" doesn't stand for the sound you want there (it stands for the sound "z"), and the letter "й" is better than "и" in those circumstances. "И" is acceptable, but it's something like writing "daee" instead of 'day'. And, of course, the soft sign. But the difference between "з" and "э" is the most important part.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2018, 07:12:25 pm »
:D! Аи ню ит вуд кам ин хзнди ван дзи...
For sure! Though I would've written it something like this:
Ай нью ит вуд кам ин хэнди ван дэй...

The letter "з" doesn't stand for the sound you want there (it stands for the sound "z"), and the letter "й" is better than "и" in those circumstances. "И" is acceptable, but it's something like writing "daee" instead of 'day'. And, of course, the soft sign. But the difference between "з" and "э" is the most important part.
Ah yes, of course. Those letters always fuck me up, since they look so similar.

MSJ

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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2018, 07:31:55 pm »
They're talking about us in Russian guys, lol. Id love to learn another language, but it would be Spanish. Russian seems very difficult.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2018, 07:36:27 pm »
They're talking about us in Russian guys, lol. Id love to learn another language, but it would be Spanish. Russian seems very difficult.
Russian is, simply put, a nightmare. I pity those brave souls who elected to learn it as their second language.

For clarity, what we did there was writing English words using Russian alphabet.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 pm by SmilerLoki »

MSJ

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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2018, 08:31:40 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
For clarity, what we did there was writing English words using Russian alphabet.

Color me stupid! Its a cool language and I love the spelling, its......badass.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2018, 11:56:42 pm »
Would the ability to read the emotion/intent behind the words conveyed not facilitate the learning, though? He has an understanding of what is being said. That's what I got from the Lleweth interactions, anyway. Kellhus very quickly learned to "read" the worldborn to the point where he knows what you're thinking/intending to say better than we do. It follows that he already knows what people are saying, just not how they are saying it. That is an enormous advantage over we worldborn, no?

Understanding the conjugation could be an application of pattern recognition, assuming his memory is phonographic as well (even when the sounds remembered are not understood, they can still be recalled). Also consider that his first few alternate languages were the entire study of his Übermensch intellect for the time involved, and to me, the suspension of disbelief isn't really that difficult.

To another point, even though I'm American, I'm trilingual (English, Spanish, and German) with a cursory understanding of four other languages. I do remember how long that took, but my approach is nothing like Kellhus'.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 12:07:53 am by JerakoKayne »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2018, 12:21:50 am »
Would the ability to read the emotion/intent behind the words conveyed not facilitate the learning, though? He has an understanding of what is being said. That's what I got from the Lleweth interactions, anyway. Kellhus very quickly learned to "read" the worldborn to the point where he knows what you're thinking/intending to say better than we do. It follows that he already knows what people are saying, just not how they are saying it. That is an enormous advantage over we worldborn, no?
This only compounds the issue for me. There was this show, Lie to Me, with a premise based on reading microexpressions, and there was some science behind it, but the problem is, emotions don't really translate into causes and meanings all that well. You're afraid - a million different reasons can make you afraid. You're happy - a million different reasons can make your happy. You're sad - you get the gist.

Understanding the conjugation could be an application of pattern recognition, assuming his memory is phonographic as well (even when the sounds remembered are not understood, they can still be recalled).
Oh, and there is the question of memory, too. Eidetic memory, total recall, perfect topographic memory, etc. - all claims of those are unproven from the scientific perspective. Even more so, for example, a significantly better than average recall is the domain of savants or people with less severe disorders like Hyperthymesia. It doesn't make you more adept at navigating society, it makes you less adept.

Plus there is deciphering dead languages, if we're talking pattern recognition. We only recently worked out some algorithms that help with it, presuming you can swing the processing power required.

To another point, even though I'm American, I'm trilingual (English, Spanish, and German) with a cursory understanding of four other languages. I do remember how long that took, but my approach is nothing like Kellhus'.
That's the problem. Kellhus's approach is unfeasible from all the perspectives (biological, psychological, statistical, mathematical, etc.) regarding human body that I'm aware of.

Also, trilingual is awesome!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 12:44:12 am by SmilerLoki »

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2018, 01:35:05 am »
The level we can actually suspend our disbelief against our own experiences seems to be the issue here. Your points are entirely valid, from a scientific standpoint. But we're not talking about science! Rather we are talking about a fantasy setting. Some elements must be fantastic. I find it very interesting that elements like sorcery are accepted, but not Kellhus' other abilities. Sorcery has no analogue, so it is easy to accept it as fantastic. Elements that do have an analogue, and R. Scott Bakker's (dis?)ability to express them or not, are harder to accept when we do have our own challenges to compare it to.

Would the ability to read the emotion/intent behind the words conveyed not facilitate the learning, though? He has an understanding of what is being said. That's what I got from the Lleweth interactions, anyway. Kellhus very quickly learned to "read" the worldborn to the point where he knows what you're thinking/intending to say better than we do. It follows that he already knows what people are saying, just not how they are saying it. That is an enormous advantage over we worldborn, no?
This only compounds the issue for me. There was this show, Lie to Me, with a premise based on reading microexpressions, and there was some science behind it, but the problem is, emotions don't really translate into causes and meanings all that well. You're afraid - a million different reasons can make you afraid. You're happy - a million different reasons can make your happy. You're sad - you get the gist.


Kellhus has intimate knowledge of the causality of the emotions involved. Yes, if you are looking at somebody you have no knowledge of, there can be a million reasons. Kellhus is with them to see the stimuli. He can see the cause and effect that lead to the emotional response which is far, far, less than millions.

Understanding the conjugation could be an application of pattern recognition, assuming his memory is phonographic as well (even when the sounds remembered are not understood, they can still be recalled).

Oh, and there is the question of memory, too. Eidetic memory, total recall, perfect topographic memory, etc. - all claims of those are unproven from the scientific perspective. Even more so, for example, a significantly better than average recall is the domain of savants or people with less severe disorders like Hyperthymesia. It doesn't make you more adept at navigating society, it makes you less adept.

Plus there is deciphering dead languages, if we're talking pattern recognition. We only recently worked out some algorithms that help with it, presuming you can swing the processing power required.

I do not accept that Kellhus could decipher a dead language any better than we can. He is not deciphering dead languages, he is deciphering living languages from subjects he has constant access to.

I also agree that the ability of Kellhus to recall memory in this way is not currently scientifically feasible.

The Dunyain have a different biology, though! I do accept that if these biological limitations have been bred for, perhaps some can be overcome. If Kellhus does have a memory that does not exist in our own biology, does the rest of what he does still fail?

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2018, 02:09:36 am »
The level we can actually suspend our disbelief against our own experiences seems to be the issue here. Your points are entirely valid, from a scientific standpoint. But we're not talking about science! Rather we are talking about a fantasy setting. Some elements must be fantastic.
No, no, sure, on both counts. It's a fact, at this point, that I take it too seriously.

I find it very interesting that elements like sorcery are accepted, but not Kellhus' other abilities. Sorcery has no analogue, so it is easy to accept it as fantastic. Elements that do have an analogue, and R. Scott Bakker's (dis?)ability to express them or not, are harder to accept when we do have our own challenges to compare it to.
I'm fairly certain this is exactly the issue here, so it's unlikely we have a point of contention.

I'll add a bit of an expansion of my views on the matter to hopefully bring more clarity. As I said before, the most fantastic thing for me is the way Kellhus manipulates people. In essence, all stories are about interpersonal interactions. The worlds, the cultures, even many completely physical aspects recounted are not as important as what people do in regards to each other. Our stories are about people impacting people, this is what we look for first and foremost. This is also why upsetting these exact dynamics (in the sense of significantly contradicting personal experiences and often observed scenarios) is so grating. From my perspective, at least.

Kellhus has intimate knowledge of the causality of the emotions involved. Yes, if you are looking at somebody you have no knowledge of, there can be a million reasons. Kellhus is with them to see the stimuli. He can see the cause and effect that lead to the emotional response which is far, far, less than millions.
Alas, it's still millions. Every reaction is rooted in the experiences of a person. Those experiences are unique, and they produce unique reactions. The stimuli may be observed, as they often are, but discerning thoughts and clear meanings behind emotions those stimuli invoke, that's exceptionally hard. In some cases it might be hard even after getting completely truthful clarification from the person in question.

Yes, you might, with time and exposure, gather enough information to start making correct deductions, but the amount of information required would take years for a single person to accumulate, which is, incidentally, a realistic timeframe for learning a language.

The Dunyain have a different biology, though! I do accept that if these biological limitations have been bred for, perhaps some can be overcome. If Kellhus does have a memory that does not exist in our own biology, does the rest of what he does still fail?
I feel that a species that different is just so beyond human ken that there is no hope of interaction. If their biological framework is so different and advanced, then the Dunyain (or other similarly advanced beings) have nothing to gain on human level, there is no common ground.

Having this kind of memory with the ability to autonomously and rationally function changes that much in my eyes.

Wilshire

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« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2018, 05:38:34 pm »
I feel that a species that different is just so beyond human ken that there is no hope of interaction. If their biological framework is so different and advanced, then the Dunyain (or other similarly advanced beings) have nothing to gain on human level, there is no common ground.

Having this kind of memory with the ability to autonomously and rationally function changes that much in my eyes.


A spider traps and eats a fly without needing to understand how it communicates with other flies.

The Dunyain to Human relationship is more akin to predator prey than otherwise.
The sustenance that the Dunyain requires is Means. They vacuum up knowledge and accumulate means for the sake of doing it. Its really a matter of instinct that this point.

So the Dunyain catches the human and uses it like the spider uses a fly. Or like a man uses a hammer. Its just the case that the Human-that-is-a-tool is more useful when you can make it feel a particular way... But the hawk scares the mouse into paralysis to make it easier to catch -  it doesn't need to know the inner workings of the mouse-mind to make it do something useful.

I'm not sure this helps at all with the idea that the Dunyain can't really be humans, but I do think that there are plenty of interactions that can happen without understanding.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2018, 06:00:58 pm »
I'm not sure this helps at all with the idea that the Dunyain can't really be humans, but I do think that there are plenty of interactions that can happen without understanding.
It's akin to humanity's relationship with pets, I would say. The problem is, our human problems and thought processes cannot be related using the frame of reference belonging to pets. And Kellhus's perspective is very well related to us in the books. He's just in no way sufficiently different.

MSJ

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« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2018, 06:24:14 pm »
I think we see some of this other worldly type powers in humans already, though not a whole community.

Monks. Those that put themselves into trances or what have you and can withstand pain, stare off into nothing for days...in some cases, very rare, have been know to die while meditating........on purpose.

Stan Lee's Super Human show on History, shows people with "super" powers. They're out there, just not one all wrapped together, which would be Kellhus.

ETA: though the linguistic thing would be a hang up, I don't know if that's ever been done. But, I'm sure there is a case close to it. Like a kid that grew up speaking two languages (because of parents), then moved and learned another. Now, they might have a better chance at learning languages quicker. I'm just saying, there are anomalies all over the world. Probably right about language though.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 06:27:56 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2018, 06:38:49 pm »
I'm not sure this helps at all with the idea that the Dunyain can't really be humans, but I do think that there are plenty of interactions that can happen without understanding.
It's akin to humanity's relationship with pets, I would say. The problem is, our human problems and thought processes cannot be related using the frame of reference belonging to pets. And Kellhus's perspective is very well related to us in the books. He's just in no way sufficiently different.
Lol. Did you read Four Revelations? I could barely get through it. I can't imagine trying to read a whole book told from a perspective that was intentionally different from a typical person.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2018, 06:43:47 pm »
Lol. Did you read Four Revelations? I could barely get through it. I can't imagine trying to read a whole book told from a perspective that was intentionally different from a typical person.
I adore the Four Revelations!

But yes, that's the problem. We can only understand relatable things. Even something just slightly out there, like the Four Revelations, can be impenetrable, at least at first.

Wilshire

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« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2018, 07:23:58 pm »
lmao, why doesn't that surprise me at all?
It was a fun story, but trying to read a whole book like that would be insane. I wonder if Bakker could write one? Might be fun, albeit excruciatingly frustrating.
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