[Cüréthañ]

So who is responsible for the Celmoman prophecy?
I kinda suspect Kellhus thinks he is sending 'messages' back in time for himself from some point of ascension.

Aurang's assertion that both false and true prophecies must be respected implies to me that their clairvoyance is not absolute, but rather a struggle of possibilities ala the probability trance, only working backwards.

In a world where meaning explicitly can be leveraged to work alterations in the moment (i.e. sorcery), doesn't it make sense that the adage of victors writing history can be used to leverage the future somehow?

[Wilshire]

In a world where meaning explicitly can be leveraged to work alterations in the moment (i.e. sorcery), doesn't it make sense that the adage of victors writing history can be used to leverage the future somehow?

Sure if time loops back and crosses itself, allowing for some interaction of future and past, then the winners must perpetuate themselves winning. Maybe those who can see the Onta see some kind of overlay of past/present/future, and are therefore the only ones who really have any kind of free will at all. The bruising of the Onta is some kind of perversion of nature because the wielder destroys possibilities that once existed

[Madness]

I kinda suspect Kellhus thinks he is sending 'messages' back in time for himself from some point of ascension.

Celmomas mistakes Kellhus for Nau-Cayuti in his pre-mortem visions. I've long suspected this but to hear it echoed by another ...

[Wilshire]

“He says . . . says such sweet things to give me comfort . . . He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha. An Anasûrimbor will return—

He is Nau here.

So you think that Kellhus was telling the old king that one of his seed would return? I guess that could make sense. That way no matter what Anasurimbor returns, they will be protected by the Mandate (reminds me of the Bene Geserit's seeding false prophesies accross the galaxy to protect their own).

It could have been any future Anasurimbor that sent that message though, but mostly it might have been Moenghus (except he was blind, so maybe not).
Another possiblity, regarding the prophesy, the kind claims that the "sun flares". Akka likens himself to a "mask held against the sun", or something similar. Perhaps the dead king was seeing the sorcerous light streaming from his "son's" face.

Any physical description of Nau laying around?

[Cüréthañ]

Kell has talked to the Seswatha homunculous.  Akka knows what Nau looks like from his dreams.  I'm sure it would be a peice o piss to appear as Nau; sending dreams through thousands of years would be the hard bit.

[Madness]

Retroactively, it is an easy fit to be convinced of.

Achamian offers reflection a few times on the striking resemblances between Celmomas in his Dreams and Kellhus, c. when they first meet. As noted, if the Mandate believe, preemptively, that "an Anasurimbor will return" and Kellhus knows that Celmomas dies in the Mandate founder's arms... Seemingly simple dream-communication with a second inutteral for 'across time' rather than 'across space.'

Though, it seems we could only be discussing this about a Bakker book. I mean, we're questioning the gods-damned narrative structure to posit bullshit and it makes sense.

[mrganondorf]

In a world where meaning explicitly can be leveraged to work alterations in the moment (i.e. sorcery), doesn't it make sense that the adage of victors writing history can be used to leverage the future somehow?

Sure if time loops back and crosses itself, allowing for some interaction of future and past, then the winners must perpetuate themselves winning. Maybe those who can see the Onta see some kind of overlay of past/present/future, and are therefore the only ones who really have any kind of free will at all. The bruising of the Onta is some kind of perversion of nature because the wielder destroys possibilities that once existed

I really hope there's no time travel in the series.  I think I don't like time travel in narratives unless its comedy.  Harry Potter has this problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYWT5Q_R_w

Rant by Palahniuk didn't work for me because of the time travel.  Plus he's getting repetitive. 

[Madness]

Yet my First Apocalypse nerdanel depends on Time Travel. Via dreams for Achamian, and via Tekne for Kellhus.

[mrganondorf]

Yet my First Apocalypse nerdanel depends on Time Travel. Via dreams for Achamian, and via Tekne for Kellhus.

Oh yeah--I remember now!  I guess when I read about your idea (I don't know who else is in this camp?) that my mind ran with it and I was thinking that Bakker would build up TUC to a final terrifying moment that would leave the reader on a cliff hanger.  Not that there would be NO resolution, there would be lots, but beyond that there would be some kind of epic unanswered question hanging and the answer would entirely depend on the 'darkness that came before' or some decision that an ancient character had made in the 1st apocalypse.  Like if Seswatha chose to lay the foundation for the Consult's ultimate defeat or if he chose to damn the world to a never ending cycle of No-God return/demise.  Then the whole next series would detail the 1st apocalypse and terminate in the moment that made sense of the whole series.

[Madness]

I would be impressed if Bakker did something like that.

My nerdanel depends on the First Apocalypse as historically recorded hasn't actually "happened" yet... that everything happens at once and time is a dimension of space and locality and so living the events as they happened is simply how you experienced them happening as they have always happened... I over-studied for my Asian & Native American philosophy midterm.

[locke]

it reminds me of the theory that Dumbledore was really old-Harry or old-Ron time traveled back in time to guide them along.

[Alia]

Madness - there's this story by Ted Chiang "The Story of Your Life" that explores this idea. I found it fascinating, because it's science-fiction, where the "science" element is mostly linguistics (my major).

[mrganondorf]

it reminds me of the theory that Dumbledore was really old-Harry or old-Ron time traveled back in time to guide them along.

I really wanted it to be Ron. 

I liked time travel in How To Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe.

[Madness]

Madness - there's this story by Ted Chiang "The Story of Your Life" that explores this idea. I found it fascinating, because it's science-fiction, where the "science" element is mostly linguistics (my major).

I'm going to buy a book of his shorts. Sounds interesting.

I'm never sure I like this Dumbledore Time-Turner scenario.