[What Came Before]

Nope, sorry, Duskweaver. However, here are my thoughts though, relevant quotes are probably in TWP when Achamian is captured by the Spires:

The Gnosis is only safeguarded by two things:

Firstly, the memories of Seswatha's life, however the experience of the Dreams scar brain or psyche, are enough to overshadow any mortal torture that any Mandate Schoolman has so far undergone for the Gnosis.

1a - Seems to extend to the fact that Seswatha bars Achamian from even speaking the Gnostic Cants to Kellhus, somehow.

Secondly, and bar misinterpretation, the much stronger safeguard, is that no-one living in the Three-Seas, excepting the Mandate realize that there is an inutteral at all.

But what's your fuel, Duskweaver? I'm curious. You're the only one I can remember throwing up this specific objection.

[What Came Before]

I can't say for certain, but I believe that the anagogic sorcerers use inutterals as well but haven't unlocked as precise logic or meaning w/ their language or something...

and the Cish, as far as we know, use neither spoken nor unuttered words.

[What Came Before]

My understanding is that both Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery use inutterals. You therefore cannot learn either simply by listening to a sorcerer canting. But, in general, no schoolman would ever bother trying to learn the Anagogis that way, since all the Anagogic schools use pretty much the same cants already (since the Anagogis is based on the ancient shamanistic magic passed down orally since before Men entered Earwa, according to RSB on Zombie Three Seas, and is therefore near-universal among Men). If you're a sorcerer of the Imperial Saik, there's nothing new you could learn from a sorcerer of the Vokalati, for example, even without the inutteral problem.

One possible exception (that proves the rule) would be the Anagogic Daimos, which seems to be exclusive to the Scarlet Spires. Other schoolmen cannot learn the Daimos by 'overhearing' a Daimotic sorcerer canting any more than they could learn the Gnosis in the same manner.

Also, if it were possible for one of the Few to learn sorcery just by listening to a sorcerer canting, there'd be a lot more wizards (and witches) in Earwa.

[What Came Before]

I'm reading a book called "No god but God" by Reza Aslan.  It's non-fiction on the origins, evolution and future of Islam. 

It's a really good primer on the subject if you don't know much about it, but I digress.

Here's an interesting quote:

"As the executor of God's will, the Imam is, like the Prophet, infallible and sinless, for 'sin would destroy the validity of the call.'  Consequently, the Shi'ah developed the view that the Imams were created not from dust, as other humans were, but from eternal light."

It could be nothing, but it also could relate to what happens when hit w/ Chorae as the Cish are kind of like the high priests of the Fanim faith as Imams are kind of like the high priests of Islam.

Another interesting quote:

There is talk of a hidden Imam who left the world to visit some transcendent place to eventually return:


"Some traditions predicted that the coming of the Mahdi will be portended by civil wars and false prophets, earthquakes and the abolition of Islamic law.  According to fourteenth century historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun, the Mahdi will either directly precede Jesus, or both messiahs will descend to earth together and join forces to kill the Antichrist."

That all could be nothing, but it seemed worth sharing.

[What Came Before]

+1 for Culture. I always envisioned Earwa like an inversion of Faiths - Islamic or Hindu philosophy clothed in Catholic material and vice versa.

Both quotes offer pleasant insight.

By the way - Huge +1 for the thought that the Antichrist is so terrible that the Mahdi and Jesus would join forces :shock: . Epic!

[What Came Before]

Yeah, that's a frightening thought.  I don't necessarily think that's what's going on here, but it's fun to speculate. 

OK - From just a bit later in the book in a chapter on Sufism:

Orphaned at a young age, Rabia became a slave and the sexual property of her master.  Yet, she longed throughout her life to experience mystical union with God, sometimes going without sleep for weeks at a time in order to fast, pray, and meditate on the movement of the universe.  It was during one of these nightly meditations that her master first noticed a blinding nimbus of light shining above her head, illuminating the entire house.  Terrified, he immediately set Rabia free, allowing her to go into the desert to pursue the Way.  There, in the wilderness, Rabia achieved fana, becoming the first, though not only, female sufi master."

My bolding.

Then:

Once the veil of traditional dualities has been lifted, the ego obliterated, and the ruh allowed to absorb the qalb, the disciple finally achieves fana, which, as mentioned, is best translated as "ecstatic self-annihilation."  It is here, at the end of the Way, that the truth of Divine Unity of all creation if revealed and the Sufi realized that, in the words of Shah Angha, "the brook, the river, the drop, the sea, the bubble, all in one voice say: Water we are, water."

My bolding again.  The author describes "ruh" as similar to the Holy Spirit or Chi, so that fits a bit w/ the psukhe.

And again:

By the sheer power of their spiritual charisma, the Pirs gather disciples in order to impart to them the esoteric knowledge Sufis call erfan.  Like the Greek term gnosis, erfan refers to a heightened level of knowing in which one is able to intuit ultimate reality.  However, erfan is a nonintellectual, nonrational knowing that in the words of Shah Angha, the forty-second Pir of the Oveyssi Order, can be achieved only "through self-discipline and purification, in which case there is no need to become involved in the method of reasoning." 

Author's italics, my bolding.


ETA:  and yeah, I was wondering if "fana" has any connection to "Fane."  Who knows...

[What Came Before]

Bakker is a very well read person, Trisk.

When I encounter things like "Like the Nonmen term gnosis, Psukhe refers to a heightened level of knowing in which one is able to intuit ultimate reality. However, Psukhe is a nonintellectual, nonrational knowing that in the words of Shah Angha, the forty-second High Heresiarch of the Cishaurim, can be achieved only "through self-discipline and purification, in which case there is no need to become involved in the method of reasoning," I really have to wonder...

+1 for Connotations, though.

[What Came Before]

"Yes, I will be thy priest, and build a fane
In some untrodden region of my mind,"
- John Keats, in a poem called (guess what!) Ode to Psyche.

('Fane' just means 'temple', from the Latin 'fanum'.)

[What Came Before]

Just found this, pertains to our discussion, Duskweaver. It's getting blurry but I think I probably quoted this in sorcery. My bolding.

The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

The only conceptual leap I see is the innutteral. Anagogis would have staple metaphors and analogies, that sorcerers can wield, like the Dragon's Head (sp?), but they depend on fixed meanings whereas abstraction in the Gnosis is fixed by the innutteral?

[What Came Before]

The only conceptual leap I see is the innutteral. Anagogis would have staple metaphors and analogies, that sorcerers can wield, like the Dragon's Head (sp?), but they depend on fixed meanings whereas abstraction in the Gnosis is fixed by the innutteral?

I think I'm going to have to reread Akka and Kellhus' conversations on the nature of sorcery before commenting any further.

[What Came Before]

Sorry just rushing out to school, I'll post the whole quote tonight, but you should also check out: "'Preserving and expressing the pure modalities of meaning,' he continued, 'this is the heart of all sorcery...'" (TTT, p174)

[What Came Before]

Just found this, pertains to our discussion, Duskweaver. It's getting blurry but I think I probably quoted this in sorcery. My bolding.

The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

The only conceptual leap I see is the innutteral. Anagogis would have staple metaphors and analogies, that sorcerers can wield, like the Dragon's Head (sp?), but they depend on fixed meanings whereas abstraction in the Gnosis is fixed by the innutteral?

I thought abstraction referred to calculus or advanced science, more or less. while Anagogis is metaphorical and analogy.  Think of how algebra makes things more abstract, and e or i more abstract still.  And that abstraction leads to greater precision.

Angogis = horsepower = analogy
gnosis = miles per hour = abstract

[What Came Before]

Gawd... this is getting complicated. I was about to post the entirety of the quote above but...

"Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. 'And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.'

'There's the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key'" [Achamian] (TTT, p175).

So the Scarlet Spires torture Mandate schoolmen specifically for the inutterals and this is where the first safeguard of the "Seswathan homunculus within them" (p174) ultimately protects the Mandate Gnosis?

[What Came Before]

Speaking to this, the Anagogis sorcery has trouble with analogy, it is somehow incomplete.  Anagogis sorcerers want to produce dragon's fire, but cannot produce the essence of this fire without first producing the dragon and its maw.

The Gnosis is able to, with their metaphysics and inutterals, capture the essence of dragon's fire (or any desired cant) and therefore create the burning of dragon's fire without having to focus any attention on the dragon's head. 

This is me jumping in late and having quickly read the previous posts, but I believe the difference between Anagogis and Gnosis is one captures the essence of meaning (Gnosis), while the other must rely on rough analogies that don't really grasp the meaning or essence of the sorcerous cant (Anagogis).

Essentially, I think the Anagogis and Gnosis can best be described as the competing philosophies of meaning from Plato and Aristotle (abbreviated, of course, and in a nut shell).

I'll post my thoughts on the Cishaurim in a minute.

[What Came Before]

No worries about jumping in late - jump in at all, Athjeari. For the most part, we've let tangents linger, if only because of the thoughts and conversations they inspire. If something peaks your interest enough, start a new thread kind of thing.