Technology level

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« on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:23 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Major world-building sperging ahead:

When reading the PON books, I wondered a bit about the technology level in Eärwa - not so much for the Three Seas, which seems to be at the level of Europe in the Early Middle Ages (makes sense, if humans were in the Bronze Age during the pre-Apocalypse years, and in the Classical period during Sejenus' time) - but rather about the more mysterious civilizations.

How far have the Nonmen advanced? We know they have some pretty stunning technologies, like that winding stair inside the Cil-Aujas mountain and the mathematically-perfect Barricades around the Ark. Since they're obviously more advanced than any humans, what other technological stuff might they have? What's their general technological level?

And what about the Dûnyain? Since the average Dûnyain dude is a coldly rational super-genius by human standards, one assumes they're even smarter than the Nonmen at inventing things and figuring out how things work. IIRC, Bakker only mentioned that Dûnyain steel is much better than any steel in the Three Seas, but that's pretty much it. But they must have developed much more. What other developments can they have made in Ishuäl?

Feel free to speculate away.

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:29 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Auriga
How far have the Nonmen advanced? We know they have some pretty stunning technologies, like that winding stair inside the Cil-Aujas mountain and the mathematically-perfect Barricades around the Ark. Since they're obviously more advanced than any humans, what other technological stuff might they have? What's their general technological level?

Those would have to reflect philosophic and abstract progress, though, as its "technological" expression is sorcerous.

Kellhus makes the Seeing-Flame. Nonmen make Chorae. Their flying chariots?

Quote from: Auriga
And what about the Dûnyain? Since the average Dûnyain dude is a coldly rational super-genius by human standards, one assumes they're even smarter than the Nonmen at inventing things and figuring out how things work. IIRC, Bakker only mentioned that Dûnyain steel is much better than any steel in the Three Seas, but that's pretty much it. But they must have developed much more. What other developments can they have made in Ishuäl?

Few in Ishual. Its all about the improvements, the better ways of doing things, in the case of the Dunyain, neh?

Can't wait to see if Kellhus does anything with the Tekne.

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:38 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
Those would have to reflect philosophic and abstract progress, though, as its "technological" expression is sorcerous.

Yeah. The Nonmen's "science" seems to blend sorcery with mathematics - the invention of the Gnosis, the Chorae, the hologram images in Cil-Aujas, the wall around Golgotterath which is made of endless angles (something like a space-filling curve of nimil) that always redirect force. So their scientific progress is obviously expressed in both sorcery (the Gnosis) and in actual "hardware" (the nimil metal and such). One wonders what their written philosophy looks like? Something like Plato's?

Hell, they were even taught by the Inchoroi at one point.

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Few in Ishual. Its all about the improvements, the better ways of doing things, in the case of the Dunyain, neh?

True, true. But then again, I can't imagine the Dûnyain choosing not to explore their mind's horizons and invent purely practical things, if they can. They probably don't need any large-scale high-tech in their safe haven Ishuäl, but they must have pretty advanced surgery - that neuro-puncturing stuff in the TWP flashback, for example.

The ancient Greeks invented stuff like steam engines and clockwork, just as toys, and never actually used them for practical stuff. I guess the closest parallel to that, in Bakker-world, would be the Nonmen.

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:43 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I'm thinking we're going to see these things in Ishterebinth, Auriga.

I, too, wonder at the prevalence of sorcerous artifacts in the past and future...

Neuropuncture had an explicit purpose, neh? Practicality would be the mother of all Dunyain invention. What else would they need?

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:48 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Auriga
IIRC, Bakker only mentioned that Dûnyain steel is much better than any steel in the Three Seas.

As long as "Three Seas" doesn't include Nonman Nimil, which is stronger (quoted in the collected sayings interview that curethan posted).


As far as Nonman technology, as with most fantasy, it would seem that magic tends to slow the progression of technological advancement, though in Earwa a bit less than other series. Even still, it doesn't seem that the Nonmen had too much advanced stuff, electricity or magnets for example, or any kind of engine. I tend to write this off as magic replacing the need for stuff like that.

However, with the Dunyain, who don't use magic, I'm not really sure why they don't have more technology. Could just be a product of geography. I'm no history buff so forgive me if I'm way wrong: Like the Native Americans to Europe when they first landed. Though both civilizations where around for, more or less, about the same amount of time Europe was much more technologically advanced. I attribute this to the fact that America had very little natural resources, like metals, that would have made technological advancements possible. (thats my own lame explanation, im sure there are other factors).

But hey, they got damascan steel right? Thats cool I suppose. They either found out metallurgic ways to make the steel better, or they realized that adding carbon black nanoparticles in certain amounts significantly enhances steel itself.

I imagine with very limited resources further limiting practical applications, all the theory in the world is worthless. If they could figure out the structure of atoms and theorize the energies involved in fusion/fission, it wouldn't mean a damn thing without some Uranium235 and plutonium (or in the case of fusion, huge lasers that smash them together).
Same thing with electromagnetism, or any other example you care to thing of.

If earth was just made up of elements before Zinc (lighter elements, no heavy metals or radioactive elements), it would be physically impossible to be in the technological age we are currently in.


Still though, the Nonmen and the Dunyain should have been able to make themselves some kind of engine. Maybe not an internal combustion engine, but at least a steam powered one.  They should have been able to come up with, at least, parts of the electromagnetic theory and found some way to make it useful.
What is Earwa 16th century Europe? Wikipedia says that the formalization of EM was around 1820. The dunyain could easily be a few hundred years advanced from the rest of society.

Even if not the Dunyain, the Nonmen where around for thousands and thousands of years before men. The breaking of the gates should have been like Ancient Eqypt invading some modern, or near modern, country today.

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:53 pm »
Quote from: Centurion
Well, there's obviously no gunpowder.  I suspect that a combination of restricted mineral resources in Earwa combined with the reality of magic has somewhat stunted technological growth (or technology as we think of technology). 

Nonmen: We know that the Nonmen have had a continuous (sort-of) civilization for well over two thousand years.  In spite of the wars between mansions they seem to have enjoyed a great deal of prosperity prior to the fall of the Ark.  Many of the Nonmen are highly intelligent, and this would suggest a perfect environment for technological advancement.  However, this does not seem to have happened.  There are references to their flying chariots, but when they faced Sil they seem to have relied heavily on conventional troop formations and the Quya.  It's possible, even likely, that technologies such as indoor plumbing existed, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the Nonmen possessed an industrial or electronic capacity.  It could be possible that Earwa is a planet with a severely limited supply of certain resources like sulfur and silicon.  I also have a personal theory that the existence of real magic (especially powerful magic) would naturally stunt technological growth.  Why waste all your time mining resources, inventing, and pushing the limits when you have people who can call down the wrath of the sun with a few words?  Furthermore, it could also be possible that the Nonman psyche is so fundamentally different from human psychology that they did not feel the same imperative to improve things which otherwise worked perfectly fine for them.  Ultimately, I suspect that what Nonman technology does exist (ex. flying chariots) probably works on a similar principle to the technology of the Iosian elves in the Iron Kingdoms. 

To be fair, between the womb plague and the First Apocalypse any civilization would have ground to a halt.  The remaining Intact Nonmen have been doing their own thing in Ishterebinth for thousands of years, and I think we're going to see some crazy stuff once Sorweel and company finally reach their destination.

Dunyain: It's hard to say with them.  Again, they have no gunpowder or advanced weapons of any kind (that we have seen), but their natural ability to process, comprehend, and build on theory would suggest that after two thousand years they would be pushing the limits of mathematics and science.  This again leads me to believe that there might be some deficiency in the physical environment which keeps the people of Earwa limited to pre-Industrial Revolution societies.  There's also the little problem of Dunyain not believing in magic...and I'm pretty sure that mistake has already turned around to bite them in the butt.

Inchoroi: They have lasers and advanced genetic technology.  When these "real world" technologies were pitted against the Nonmen they were almost evenly matched.  They also have a wrecked spaceship which is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.  Obviously, this means that Earwa exists in an alternate reality where Daleks got Time Lord technology and are using it to try and shut off the Outside, rendering them the supreme rulers of time and space.

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:59 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Wilshire
But hey, they got damascan steel right? Thats cool I suppose. They either found out metallurgic ways to make the steel better, or they realized that adding carbon black nanoparticles in certain amounts significantly enhances steel itself.

Yeah, I figure that the "Dûnyain steel" is something akin to Damascus steel. It was the cutting-edge technology in medieval times, and IIRC the Damascus swords are still the best weapons forged by pre-modern means. So, yeah, the Dûnyain science would mainly be that type of stuff - taking pre-existing things and perfecting them.

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Still though, the Nonmen and the Dunyain should have been able to make themselves some kind of engine. Maybe not an internal combustion engine, but at least a steam powered one.

Well, I did bring up the example of Ancient Greeks inventing a steam engine, but not actually using it (since they had plenty of slaves to do all the hard work). The same goes for the Nonmen - there's no real incentive for Nonmen to mass-produce steam engines and go industrial, since they already have Gnostic magic.

Bakker describes the Nonmen as having "a cuneiform script" at some point. This does seem a bit odd, since you'd think they were too advanced for that.

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They should have been able to come up with, at least, parts of the electromagnetic theory and found some way to make it useful.

This I agree with. The lodestone has been around for ages, so people knew about magnetism since the Dung Ages. And electroplating was discovered in medieval times. (Although the connection between magnetism and electricity wasn't made until the 1800s.)

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Even if not the Dunyain, the Nonmen where around for thousands and thousands of years before men. The breaking of the gates should have been like Ancient Eqypt invading some modern, or near modern, country today.

The Breaking of the Gates was more like Hellenistic Greece being invaded by rock-throwing Stone Age savages. But the Nonmen were hardly a proper "country" at that point - they were already a dying race and lost their will to survive, so the incoming hordes of humans just overwhelmed the apathetic Nonmen with sheer numbers.

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 09:18:05 pm »
Quote from: Madness
You have forgotten that after nimil, Dunyain steel, the best iron in the Three Seas is Seluekaran (sp?) from Zeum :).

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 09:18:10 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Madness
You have forgotten that after nimil, Dunyain steel, the best iron in the Three Seas is Seluekaran (sp?) from Zeum :).

Nimil is the Nonman metal, not the Dûnyain steel. I don't think nimil is steel at all, just Bakker's version of Tolkien's mithril.

Also, a quick gander at the Eärwa map tells us that Seleukara isn't in Zeum, but in the Fanim lands. A location pretty analogous to real-life Damascus, no?


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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 09:18:18 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Astronomy, mathematics, and that kind of abstract knowledge seems to be pretty advanced, though.

The Mandate talk about algebra and geometry quite a bit, and the Nonmen invented a whole branch of sorcery based on math (the Gnosis). Akka also knows that the stars are distant suns, which he says is Inchoroi know-how that they'd recorded.

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 09:18:24 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Sorry - grammar issues?

nimil and Dunyain steel.

I stand corrected on the in Zuem :).

EDIT: Also, I think the analogy of Early Middle Age, Middle East cultures is a pretty striking analogy to Three Seas.

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 09:18:29 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Damascan steel is pretty badass. Last I hear, even today researchers arn't 100% sure how they where able to make it and they cant reproduce it exactly.

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 09:20:41 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Wilshire
Damascan steel is pretty badass. Last I hear, even today researchers arn't 100% sure how they where able to make it and they cant reproduce it exactly.

Just how did they make Damascus steel? The whole thing sounds fascinating to me, like those swords forged from crashed meteorites. I mean, even if we don't know the exact method, there must be a rough approximation of how they made these weapons. IIRC, it involved small doses of carbon, but the rest of the process is a total mystery to me.

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 09:20:46 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Yeah carbon black is basically coal, but it naturally forms in the nanoscale, i.e made up of particles that are 1*10^-9 meters(thi sis unusual). Nanomaterials can significantly alter or enhance characteristics of the bulk material, if added in proper quantities (useally small amounts).

Straight up metallurgy couldn't replicate the damascan steel, and I know nothing about metal working so I can't say anything about that. What I do know is that they have found  small amounts of carbon black in the steel (or it may be that this is their best guess). It makes it much harder than regular steel, but if you add to much the sword becomes too brittle, and if it isnt distributed uniformly then it won't work correctly. As you might guess, mixing anything into molten steel would probably be difficult.

The bizarre effects of nanoparticle additives has been known for quite some time (though the reason why have only been more recently discovered).

An excerpt from a paper I wrote for class
spoiler tagged for space
(click to show/hide)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_Cup

I always thought that the lycurgus cup was an entertaining example of historical use of nanoparticles.

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 09:20:51 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
The Nonman mansions in their heyday must have been cool as hell. Below are some examples of Nonman technology that we see in the books.

Instead of steam or electric power, they use enslaved souls (by means of sorcery) as an infinite power source in their engines:

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...the Great Gate of Wheels. The portal that was a lock, and the lock that was a portal.
The entrance to the Coffers.
To mundane eyes it was a wonder of scale and machination. To arcane eyes it was nothing less than a miracle of interlocking deformities: enormous incantation wheels carved from milk-white marble, turning through a frame of bronze set with constellations of faces carved of black diorite, instilled with animata - or proxies, as they called them - enslaved souls, whose only purpose was to complete the circuit between watcher and watched that was the foundation of all reality, sorcerous or not. So hideous was the Mark of the thing, so metaphysically disfigured, that bile bubbled to the back of his throat whenever he found himself before it.
Quya magic. Deeper than deep.
Seswatha paused on the stair, warred with his stomach. He looked down and for some reason felt no surprise, no alarm, to see that the golden map-case had become an infant's inert form. Blue and grey. Mottled with black bruising, as if it had perished while lying on its face.

Artworks that have a "hologram" visual effect on the human eye:

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Two wolves towered before them, standing like men to either side of an unbarred portal, eyes bulging, tongues lolling. The contrast was dramatic. Gone was the intricacy of the underworld road, replaced by a more ancient, more totemic sensibility. Each wolf was three wolves, or the same wolf at three different times, the graven heads warped into three distinct postures, their expressions ranging from sorrow to savagery, as if the ancient artisans had rendered an entire animal existence in a single moment of stone.

Astronomy that is fairly advanced for the time, since they had Inchoroi know-how:

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“Do you think they speak our future, Akka? The stars?”
A momentary pause. “No.”
“Why?”
“The Nonmen believe the sky is endlessly empty, an infinite void.”
“Empty? How could that be?”
“Even more, they think the stars are faraway suns.”
“How could they believe such a thing?” she asked. “The sun moves in circles about the world. The stars move in circles about the Nail.” The thought struck her that the Nail of Heaven itself might be another world, one with a thousand thousand suns. Such a sky that would be!
Achamian shrugged. “Supposedly that’s what the Inchoroi told them. They sailed here from stars that were suns.”

An enormous spiral stair inside a mountain, that goes from the mountaintop all the way down to the deepest underworld:

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"Cleric called it the Screw," Galian says hoarsely, staring upward like all the others. He looks different with days of growth across his jaw and chin, less like the cynical wit and more like his brothers. "The Great Medial Screw."

They stand on a terrace set in curved walls that wrap out through the vagaries of Achamian's light to form a perfect cylinder, one that soars as far as any of them can see, terminating in a point of shining white. Elongated glyphs band the surface, some as tall as a man, others engraved in panels no larger than a hand. A stair ascends from the terrace, as broad as a Galeoth wain, winding in helical loops into the obscurity above. Glittering water threads the open air, falling from unguessed heights into the pool that forms a mirror-black plate four lengths below the terrace. For a vertiginous moment, Mimara has the impression of staring up from the bottom of an inconceivable well, as though she were no more than a mite, waiting for gods to draw water. It seems impossible that this shaft runs the entire height of the mountain, that a single work can link the heavens to the hell at their feet.

A wall shaped like a space-filling curve, that deflects all force directed against it, and can only be broken by a force that doesn't occupy space:

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“They are called the Barricades,” the Nonman says. “The Artisan himself fashioned them.“
The Man gazes in wonder at the configurations of nimil and light. “So that none might enter…” he murmurs.
Cet’ingira lowers his porcelain face in assent. “So that none might enter.”
Shaeönanra almost stumbles, so dazzling is the sunlight across the immense curvatures of gold, so deep is the pitch of the surrounding fall.

“The Barricades,” he continues. “They fold…intervals. Somehow the Artisan found a way to pinch emptiness into angles. This was why no dispensation of sheer force could batter them down. In a sense, everything you and my predecessors threw at it simply… missed."