The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Madness on July 15, 2016, 03:30:37 pm
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Previous thread here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1802.0):
I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing. My list in no particular order:
The whale mothers
Saubon's damnation and the link to the vision on Mangedda
Related - Kellhus abandoning Saubon at Dagliash
Kellhus banging Proyas (not for homophobic reasons, it just strikes me as disturbing what with all the mental anguish and the fact that Proyas has shown no propensity toward gay sex--I doubt sexual desire matters to a Dunyain)
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The Proyas scene was by far the most disturbing to me. It's up there with the White Luck Warrior ending in that it actually made me question why I'm reading the series, although the shock value of both is much lessened in hindsight. I wouldn't otherwise be into the series if I wasn't already a fan of dark fantasy but I do think you can go too far, although I admit it's hard for me to articulate why.
I've read a lot of post-nuclear Sci Fi in the past, so I knew what was coming, but the descriptions of the Scalded was nonetheless incredibly harrowing.
The book was amazing but overall I would say it was one of the most depressing works I've read in a while.
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The grimness definitively turns up to 11. The descriptions of the Nonmen Mansion...the ultimate asylum ran by the inmates. I don't know why. Their millennial anguish, their depravity...it stays with me.
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I think the Saubon scene is so distiurbing because from his perspective he's done everything right, and only in the moment when it is too late does he realize he placed his trust in the wrong person. Really drives home the theme of certainty and the damage it can do.
One thing I'd like to see before the end is some notion of what WON'T damn you. Rught now, so far as I'm aware, Mimara is going to be one lonely soul when she dies.
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I think the Saubon scene is so distiurbing because from his perspective he's done everything right, and only in the moment when it is too late does he realize he placed his trust in the wrong person. Really drives home the theme of certainty and the damage it can do.
One thing I'd like to see before the end is some notion of what WON'T damn you. Rught now, so far as I'm aware, Mimara is going to be one lonely soul when she dies.
What if the Truth is that there is not such thing as Salvation? There is only either Damnation or Oblivion?
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I think the Saubon scene is so distiurbing because from his perspective he's done everything right, and only in the moment when it is too late does he realize he placed his trust in the wrong person. Really drives home the theme of certainty and the damage it can do.
One thing I'd like to see before the end is some notion of what WON'T damn you. Rught now, so far as I'm aware, Mimara is going to be one lonely soul when she dies.
What if the Truth is that there is not such thing as Salvation? There is only either Damnation or Oblivion?
That was my take-away, H. The only afterlife is damnation. The lucky ones, as stated in Ecclesiastes, "do not know anything."
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Omg that is Christianity. Either you burn in hell or you become a endlessly praying mindless soul.
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Are you sure your concept of Christianity isn't derived from r/fedoramancer bro?
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I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing.
Bakker's repeated use...of ellipses...and italics to emphasize profundity.
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Omg that is Christianity. Either you burn in hell or you become a endlessly praying mindless soul.
Haha, Geoffbro. Full disclosure: I'm not too familiar with the old testament. But I remembered reading somewhere about how the concepts of heaven and hell aren't really in the old testament and that quote from Ecclesiates was included.
As Bakker's stated in interviews, the metaphysics of Earwa are loosely based on our distant ancestors' conception of metaphysics. What's interesting to me is that while Earwa has the idea of damnation, it doesn't seem to have the idea of a heavenly afterlife. Rewards for "good" deeds and service are granted in life but punishment for "bad" deeds is dealt with in the afterlife.
A metaphysical whodunit indeed!
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I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing.
Bakker's repeated use...of ellipses...and italics to emphasize profundity.
Lol - we had a thread in the TGO ARC Discussion about things of this nature.
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I liked the Proyas scene. Was totally unexpected; my wife saw me laughing reading it, and I explained to her "one of the characters is really getting fucked in the ass, spiritually, psychologically, metaphorically and physically"
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I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing.
Bakker's repeated use...of ellipses...and italics to emphasize profundity.
Haha yes. The use of ellipses started to get jarring for me after a time :) . Glad I'm not the only one.
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Saubon's damnation and the link to the vision on Mangedda
Someone refresh my brain on this one, please.
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Saubon's damnation and the link to the vision on Mangedda
Someone refresh my brain on this one, please.
In TWP, Saubon gets clubbed in the head at Mengedda and experiences the "other half" of his vision in TGO.
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It certainly wasn't the most graphic scene, but the image of Nin'ciljiras ladling oil over his head really stuck with me. Otherwise, Kellhus' calm return to his Dunyain self after encountering the golden coffer at Dagliash was pretty chilling.
The writing that glowers upon it... What does it say?
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That not everyone can be saved.
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What do you say?
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His Saviour turned to him, smiled what might have counted as an apology had they played number-sticks.
That this is a good thing.
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The descriptions of the sranc wandering the darkness of the thousand thousand halls, I actually felt sorry for them :/
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It certainly wasn't the most graphic scene, but the image of Nin'ciljiras ladling oil over his head really stuck with me. Otherwise, Kellhus' calm return to his Dunyain self after encountering the golden coffer at Dagliash was pretty chilling.
The writing that glowers upon it... What does it say?
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That not everyone can be saved.
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What do you say?
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His Saviour turned to him, smiled what might have counted as an apology had they played number-sticks.
That this is a good thing.
Yeah, that was a great and chilling scene. But a great one, IMO.
But on topic, my most disturbing ones:
- the rape of Proyas. It was written so ambiguously - like Bakker was trying to trick us - that I wasn't even sure it physically happened until he told Saubon. And the fact that Kellhus did it not out of a sexual need but as a way to challenge Saubon - not Proyas - makes it even more twisted somehow.
- the Emwanna at the Nonman mansion, so disturbingly described. Horror-esque, but also recalling H.g.wells "the time machine" in how the are a combination of the worst aspects of the Eloi *and* Morlock.
- the whale mothers. 'Nuff said.
- the Monemn chapters. More for a meta reason, as they are by far the most of a chore to read through. Can't they all just die already. :-D
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- the rape of Proyas. It was written so ambiguously - like Bakker was trying to trick us - that I wasn't even sure it physically happened until he told Saubon. And the fact that Kellhus did it not out of a sexual need but as a way to challenge Saubon - not Proyas - makes it even more twisted somehow.
Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.
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Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.
I dunno. I read zero joy in that. No emotion at all, really. The language Bakker uses is very non-natural and removed. Within the story, it seemed pretty clearly a part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas and/or Saubon to lead the Ordeal.
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Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.
I dunno. I read zero joy in that. No emotion at all, really. The language Bakker uses is very non-natural and removed. Within the story, it seemed pretty clearly a part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas and/or Saubon to lead the Ordeal.
Indeed. Kellhus seemed to get no "joy" out of it, it was all to manipulate Saubon and Proyas. No emotion was involved, but I'm not sure it makes it better or worse.
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How about Inrilatus fucking Theliopa and calling her Sranky. That shit turned my stomach.
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Sranky.
Has a more devastating insult ever been levied?
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Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.
I dunno. I read zero joy in that. No emotion at all, really. The language Bakker uses is very non-natural and removed. Within the story, it seemed pretty clearly a part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas and/or Saubon to lead the Ordeal.
Indeed. Kellhus seemed to get no "joy" out of it, it was all to manipulate Saubon and Proyas. No emotion was involved, but I'm not sure it makes it better or worse.
Worse. There is an absolutely horrifying passage - gave me reminiscence of Neuropath - where Proyas is listening to Kayutas talk about trying to figure out his father and Proyas is trying hide the thoughts of Kellhus the Place for what Kayutas will see in his face:
"Of course it was Thelli who figured it all out," Kayutas continued. "She realized that we could not solve Father because he did not exist, that Father was, in point of fact, no one at all..."
A cold tongue licked the Exalt-General's spine.
Now that could just Proyas having shivers... or a real and very frightening memory :o .
How about Inrilatus fucking Theliopa and calling her Sranky. That shit turned my stomach.
Yeah... that bothers me. I don't believe in baby-proofing the world but - personally knowing survivors of abuse - I sometimes think Bakker's writing should come with one giant trigger-warning.
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How about Inrilatus fucking Theliopa and calling her Sranky. That shit turned my stomach.
Yeah... that bothers me. I don't believe in baby-proofing the world but - personally knowing survivors of abuse - I sometimes think Bakker's writing should come with one giant trigger-warning.
Not that it triggered me or anything, but I never even batted an eye at anything that ever happened in any of the books.
That part made my stomach drop and I had to read it twice to be sure I understood correctly.
Poor Theli, I guess I really did like her...
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The whale-mothers thing reminded me a lot of daemoncubala from Warhammer 40k; it sorta amused me, because me and a friend had this recurring joke that Bakker should be the one to write 40k literature. I found it disappointing, though; since Kellhus chose Esmenet for her intellect, making her the only one capable of bearing his children, I thought Dunyain woman would be these immensely smart philosophers like the rest of the Dunyain. I suppose it makes sense that the purely pragmatical Dunyain would regard women as breeding tools, but even then, I can't help but wonder if the whale mothers were just as smart as the men - untapped potential, maybe.
Thelli's death was the thing that appalled me the most. I liked her a lot. Why did she have to die? :(
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The whale-mothers thing reminded me a lot of daemoncubala from Warhammer 40k; it sorta amused me, because me and a friend had this recurring joke that Bakker should be the one to write 40k literature.
I wish Duskweaver was still a frequent poster, may he return sooner rather than later. He was another poster who constantly noted analogues between Warhammer 40K and Earwa. I've never heard Bakker mention it but it makes sense its something he's been exposed to in his life of dungeon mastering.
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Sranky.
Has a more devastating insult ever been levied?
probably more of a trigger than a standalone reaction, it is inri we're talking about.
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Just finished the book, definitely worth the wait, my god. I'd say that this book has more concentrated awful than probably the whole first trilogy combined.
-Saubon being dragged to hell. Felt kind of bad for the guy even though he was obviously an asshole, especially since he'd just started believing.
-Normally you don't find too many likeable characters in this series, but Bakker introduced two in this book and killed em both off, in Koringhus and Oinaral. When Koringhus jumped, damn that got me. Oirinal being killed by his own father as well.
-The entire descent into the depths of Ishteribinth. I don't think anyone's ever devised a more awful fate for a fictional race. The whole idea that that is better than damnation makes it all the worse.
-Proyas being raped, of course. I always kind of root for the guy, very surprised he survived this book in all honesty.
-Thelli and Inrilatas.
-The descriptions following the nuke were pretty vivid. Really, most of the Great Ordeal in this book was horrific stuff to read. Made Mimira and Achamian's adventures seem like a fucking lighthearted subplot.
I'm sure there's so much more but I'm reeling a bit. Now to read all the existing discussion.
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I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing.
Bakker's repeated use...of ellipses...and italics to emphasize profundity.
Ha! There were a couple of moments where that got to me too. Loads of chapters ending on dramatic, short sentences
"And we are the bread" dun Dun DUN
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I'm sure there's so much more but I'm reeling a bit. Now to read all the existing discussion.
Welcome back, Onrack :)!
I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing.
Bakker's repeated use...of ellipses...and italics to emphasize profundity.
Ha! There were a couple of moments where that got to me too. Loads of chapters ending on dramatic, short sentences
"And we are the bread" dun Dun DUN
I don't think that is "new" of Bakker's style. He's been ending on dramatic short sentences since very early on, if not all through ;).
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Thank you. Took forever for my book order to arrive, thought I'd never get to discuss it.
True, it just seemed especially dramatic this time around. It's probably a function of being closer to the endgame, more dramatic revelations to uh, reveal. And hey, it works/
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Thank you. Took forever for my book order to arrive, thought I'd never get to discuss it.
Glad you did, Onrack.
Lol - though, hats off for Canada (may or may not have physical copies on shelves at all) and UK (whom don't get an official release until Sep 29th - and damn am I excited for cover art that's not the fucking face).
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It's a shame, the part of the cover art that isn't that generic face is pretty good. If they had just some sort of medieval tableaux in it's place, or some other illustration, it would be fine. Probably wouldn't cost much more either.
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We're getting an Inchie face on The Unholy Consult, right?
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The whale-mothers thing reminded me a lot of daemoncubala from Warhammer 40k; it sorta amused me, because me and a friend had this recurring joke that Bakker should be the one to write 40k literature.
I wish Duskweaver was still a frequent poster, may he return sooner rather than later. He was another poster who constantly noted analogues between Warhammer 40K and Earwa. I've never heard Bakker mention it but it makes sense its something he's been exposed to in his life of dungeon mastering.
Use your influence and get him to write for the Black Library. Paul Kearney has written one Space Marine book already. Bakker MUST write Space Marines, it is imperative.
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- the rape of Proyas. It was written so ambiguously - like Bakker was trying to trick us - that I wasn't even sure it physically happened until he told Saubon. And the fact that Kellhus did it not out of a sexual need but as a way to challenge Saubon - not Proyas - makes it even more twisted somehow.
Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.
They enjoy horrifying people I think, the specific manner of act is just secondary to that (though a sexual component is always present too). In the case of someone who craved sodomy they would probably find another perversion instead.
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I suppose it makes sense that the purely pragmatical Dunyain would regard women as breeding tools, but even then, I can't help but wonder if the whale mothers were just as smart as the men - untapped potential, maybe.
They would have to be smart to avoid dysgenic effects from breeding. As for their potential, the Dunyain value the Self-Moving Soul above all else, and are not concerned overly with the development and fulfillment of other, lesser persons except as stepping stones along that path.
Which makes one wonder what they considered the SMS to consist of if they still thought themselves inadequate. Kellhus is a prodigy even among Dunyain and Koringhus is said to have "confounded the elders with his gifts" - what was needed beyond that? Did the Dunyain somehow lose sight of their goal? By what measure could such people as these still regard themselves as inadequate?
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“But measure,” the slave replies, “is not something accomplished and then forgotten, Skiötha. Old measure is merely grounds for the new. Measure is unceasing.”
Aim for ever smaller fractions of the integral, I guess. Endless task really.
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Did the Dunyain somehow lose sight of their goal? By what measure could such people as these still regard themselves as inadequate?
Didn't so much lose sight, as was just plain out wrong from the start. Doesn't Koringhus tell us as much, and Kellhus, and Moe? By erasing history and hiding the fact of sorcery, the were essentially lying to themselves. The were keeping key ingredients need to obtain a SMS out of the equation.
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I like the rationalizations though of sorcery possibly being a low hanging fruit that limited the overall focus of the goal, because it certainly crossed my mind in a similar fashion.
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- the rape of Proyas. It was written so ambiguously - like Bakker was trying to trick us - that I wasn't even sure it physically happened until he told Saubon. And the fact that Kellhus did it not out of a sexual need but as a way to challenge Saubon - not Proyas - makes it even more twisted somehow.
Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.
They enjoy horrifying people I think, the specific manner of act is just secondary to that (though a sexual component is always present too). In the case of someone who craved sodomy they would probably find another perversion instead.
So is the whole "We're a race of lovers" thing just a joke on their parts?
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- the rape of Proyas. It was written so ambiguously - like Bakker was trying to trick us - that I wasn't even sure it physically happened until he told Saubon. And the fact that Kellhus did it not out of a sexual need but as a way to challenge Saubon - not Proyas - makes it even more twisted somehow.
Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.
They enjoy horrifying people I think, the specific manner of act is just secondary to that (though a sexual component is always present too). In the case of someone who craved sodomy they would probably find another perversion instead.
So is the whole "We're a race of lovers" thing just a joke on their parts?
They are probably deluded enough to think that they are providing people with some sort of liberation, you tend to see that kind of thing among hedonists. Their degeneracy has warped their minds.
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Did the Dunyain somehow lose sight of their goal? By what measure could such people as these still regard themselves as inadequate?
Didn't so much lose sight, as was just plain out wrong from the start. Doesn't Koringhus tell us as much, and Kellhus, and Moe? By erasing history and hiding the fact of sorcery, the were essentially lying to themselves. The were keeping key ingredients need to obtain a SMS out of the equation.
Huh. Sorcery, as a key component of the SMS? Interesting. What role might Cants of Compulsion play in achieving the SMS? This is interesting to ponder on, thank you.
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Huh. Sorcery, as a key component of the SMS? Interesting. What role might Cants of Compulsion play in achieving the SMS? This is interesting to ponder on, thank you.
I don't think that is quite on the right track. Keep in mind Koringhus is wrong on at least one thing, that The Judging Eye is the work of sorcery. It isn't. It's just like Bakker told us about Wracu's fire breathing. It is neither mundane nor sorcerous.
As such, no, sorcery isn't needed to become self-moving. However, denying or simply being ignorant of it's existence is a real detriment to understanding The Absolute. This is because being unaware of the Outside means you cannot be fully aware of the effect it would have on you, via (or perhaps as) The Darkness. The Dunyain were wrong in thinking that the Logos encompasses all. It doesn't, the Outside leaks in both through souls and through topoi and who knows where else.
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Yea, what H said. I didn't mean sorcery was needed to obtain the Absolute. He'll, koringhus proves that wrong in how he come about the Absolute with never uttering a Cant. I was just saying that by limiting knowledge the Dûnyain hurt their cause to grasp the Absolute. They were missing pieces to the puzzle, so to say.
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For me, the saddest emotionally I have felt in the entire series was when Esmi found Thelli dead and ranted to the gods that it doesn't hurt Kellhus at all when they do this, it only hurts her. That really struck a chord with me. But I wasn't appalled, per se, just empathetic. Very good writing there. The most appalling is probably a tie between the Kellhus-Proyas rape scene or the fact that every one is damned beside Mimara, and I don't really even like Mimara that much.
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The final fate of Ishterebinth
Saubon's damnation
The Survivor's last days
Serwa and Moenghus at auction.
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The most appalling is probably a tie between the Kellhus-Proyas rape scene or the fact that every one is damned beside Mimara, and I don't really even like Mimara that much.
Koringhus isn't damned he went and joined the Absolute and the Eye approved. Also, since we've been seeing glimpses of people and their judgment through the JE, it isn't like we have a huge sample size. Some sorcerers, Dûnyain, A Nonman Quya, The Most Violent of All Men and a squad of scalpers. You pretty much expect them all to be damned.
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Scales are also heavily tilted in way of damnation too.
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The Eye can approve of specific acts of overall damned people. I wouldn't write Koringhus' damnation off.
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The Eye can approve of specific acts of overall damned people. I wouldn't write Koringhus' damnation off.
Check out @Happy Ent's post over at Westeros, he seems to agree with me. He just has more evidence and puts it so eloquently. I guess you could be right, but my interpretation of the text says he was redeemed, thus saved from damnation.
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I meant "everyone" in a hyperbolic sense. A more accurate statement would be "It appears that nearly everyone is damned and there is a strong chance that there is no salvation at all, just joining the absolute." To me, that is a very hopeless and depressing life. Life sucks, and then it just gets worse. Hoping Kellhus really does destroy the gods and make things better.
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I meant "everyone" in a hyperbolic sense. A more accurate statement would be "It appears that nearly everyone is damned and there is a strong chance that there is no salvation at all, just joining the absolute." To me, that is a very hopeless and depressing life. Life sucks, and then it just gets worse. Hoping Kellhus really does destroy the gods and make things better.
Yea, you're right. The system is set up for damnation's sake, it's very hard to avoid. I just mentioned what I did because we truly don't have a huge sample size. I'd like her to gaze with the JE on a farmer or some regular soul like that and see what it shows.
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Reading TJE just now, Mimara does mention that "Good men shine brighter than good women" - this seems an offhand indication that she has seen people that aren't damned, though she wasn't sure exactly what it was during that passage.
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Reading TJE just now, Mimara does mention that "Good men shine brighter than good women" - this seems an offhand indication that she has seen people that aren't damned, though she wasn't sure exactly what it was during that passage.
Snakes are saved too.
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Reading TJE just now, Mimara does mention that "Good men shine brighter than good women" - this seems an offhand indication that she has seen people that aren't damned, though she wasn't sure exactly what it was during that passage.
Snakes are saved too.
Well, they shine bright, compared to pigs. Whether that means saved or otherwise is your call.
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I wonder about the wales though and great apes.
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Depends on the what the gods have decided. Those that judge salvation and damnation are not good.
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The whale-mothers thing reminded me a lot of daemoncubala from Warhammer 40k
So much heresy... :)
Is there any fanfiction out there where another alien race hunts the Inchoroi across the cosmos for their wickedness and finally finds them in Earwa and deliver some righteous macro cannon ammo and lance strike? No?
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Bakker's repeated use...of ellipses...and italics to emphasize profundity.
Meta-licious.
But what about all the CAPS? Bakker does those a lot too. Actually I really like those. The best use of it, I think, is from the White Luck Warrior in that brilliantly written confrontation with Wuttea. Reading it -- "IS NOT THE TRUTH INFINITE?" -- really sent a chill down on my spine. I really got a sense of the horrifying majesty of the dragons. Absolutely NOTHING like Daenerys Targaryen.
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I enjoy most of Bakker's stylistic tics other than his strange commitment to stuttering.
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Bakker's repeated use...of ellipses...and italics to emphasize profundity.
Meta-licious.
But what about all the CAPS? Bakker does those a lot too. Actually I really like those. The best use of it, I think, is from the White Luck Warrior in that brilliantly written confrontation with Wuttea. Reading it -- "IS NOT THE TRUTH INFINITE?" -- really sent a chill down on my spine. I really got a sense of the horrifying majesty of the dragons. Absolutely NOTHING like Daenerys Targaryen.
Yes, those stylistic tics, baroque and even, here and there, rococo. It does feel overdone, and gives me the impression that it's almost a comment on the writing of genre. Underlining meaning by any means necessary? Surely Bakker as a writer must be aware of the use of these tools, therefore I assume a certain comment, distance or even irony in their usage.
On the other hand, while certainly not as present in TGO as in previous volumes, the pattern of using sun/star/fire-light to backlight/halo/contrast/illuminate a character or scene in a significant-iconic-quasi-religious way, became so obvious that it left me wondering how conscious Bakker was of using this device. It stood out and not in a good way. Or Bakker is getting ironic there as well?
While this is not a perfect work, it does possess vitality and passion.
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What does Bakker know?!
Seriously, though... Lol. He is smart.
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I like the extra emphasis.gives it some flavour.
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It also emphasises in a very clear way what is important for which POV. I find it quite elegant really. A lot of the flavour for each POV comes from the choice of language and grammar used to describe what the POV sees and experiences: Kelmomas will have shorter sentences with a different focus than Akka, for example.
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Its quite interesting to see what really irritated some but is enjoyed by others :). Can't piss off everyone all at once, even if he tried.
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Its quite interesting to see what really irritated some but is enjoyed by others :). Can't piss off everyone all at once, even if he tried.
Yeah, agreed. I actually just saw a random redditor on r/fantasy say that Bakker uses "make mud" too much as a metaphor for shitting. That has to be a unique fixation ;).
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Some people want the nitty gritty details. God knows I do.